To get hit Or to not Get hit......

[red5angel]

This sort of goes along with the internal principles of wingchun. A while ago I posted about Pak sau, how it can be done close and although some of the opponents energy may get through, most of it wont and the rest can be diverted or absorbed.
Someone posted that they prefer not to get hit at all but what does it really matter if you can diffuse the energy altogether or even turn it against your opponent?! If getting hit is a concern of yours then wouldnt you look for ways to deal with this? Real combat is nor pretty and the chances of getting hit are there, so why not prepare for it, just in case? Part of what we are learning with Carl Dechiara is to take in that energy and either diffuse it or use it to supplement our own energy, to use it against our opponents!

[CanadianBadAss]

I'm not sure what you mean. When doing a pak sao, the idea would be to not get hit(even if the pak sao is close to your body), but i gues if your timings a bit off it might brush agaisnt you as u knock it out of the way. With the way you put it though, it seems as if Carl times it so it does brush against him, wich just seems kind of stupid.

[red5angel]

Nope, you dont time it so it does, but you dont worry about it if it does. You aren't looking to get hit but if you do it is no big deal. the pak is close so you have more room to intercept, and it has to move less, and if the shot gets past, you absorb the energy.

[CanadianBadAss]

Wing Chun(speaking from a TST lineage point of veiw) teaches us how to use our bodies to their full potential and get the most power out of each movment. The pak sao doesnt need to be close to your body, as long as you have that kind of power in each of your movments u can do practically what ever you want to collapse their structure. But i guess generally you would be right because thats where your wu sao is. But why would you wait? I hate waiting, just go in and kick his ass.

[red5angel]

I agree that it is not the only way to do Pak Sau! There are many ways to use it but this was a good example to illustrate the point. ultimately I think the point is that not only should you train to not be hit but you should also train in case you are hit!

[CanadianBadAss]

Oh..... i understand your thread now.
Ya, it's like doing chi sao with an ass who punches you instead of tapping you. At first I start getting ****ed off, but then u control yourself and learn to deal with it.

[red5angel]

Now if you imagine taking that persons energy and using it to your advantage!

[gnugear]

Originally posted by CanadianBadAss
Oh..... i understand your thread now.
Ya, it's like doing chi sao with an ass who punches you instead of tapping you. At first I start getting ****ed off, but then u control yourself and learn to deal with it.

.... and punch him back?:D

[rogue]

You shouldn't take a hit when your opponents strike is at it's sweet spot, before and after are fine but not at it's most powerful.

"Someone posted that they prefer not to get hit at all but what does it really matter if you can diffuse the energy altogether or even turn it against your opponent?!"

Trust me on this, even if it works most of the time you will get very injured trying to frequently absorb your opponents strikes.

"Real combat is nor pretty and the chances of getting hit are there, so why not prepare for it, just in case?"

I agree, but be careful not to take it to extremes. Anyway if you're sparring hard enough you'll take enough hits anyway to give you a feel for what it's like.:)

[Rill]

Someone posted that they prefer not to get hit at all but what does it really matter if you can diffuse the energy altogether or even turn it against your opponent?! If getting hit is a concern of yours then wouldnt you look for ways to deal with this?
...
Part of what we are learning with Carl Dechiara is to take in that energy and either diffuse it or use it to supplement our own energy, to use it against our opponents!

What does it matter?? I'm going to assume you've never been hit hard here, because if you had, you'd know why it matters. Getting hit is certainly a concern of mine - my way of dealing with it is called Wing Chun, and may involve a tan sau, wu sau, or just plain old punching through their strike and hitting them first.
If your meaning from supplementing your own energy is in reference to a strike that hits your body and allows you to pivot/turn and move away from it, simultaneously using that movement to throw your own strike back, then fine, but it's not something you should plan to do - this will not work against a punch that drives straight down your centerline.
If not, and you're seriously going to stand there and tell me that you can 'absorb' the energy from a strike that gets through your defences, then I suggest you go practice a bit with some headgear and your classmates - have them hit you in the head as hard as they would throw a punch in a fight, and tell me if you seriously think you could avoid the damage without some protection.

Reminds me of that scene in Crouching Tiger with the rooftop fight - 'ah! you have been trained in Wudan!' :)

[kungfu cowboy]

What gets through is not what came in.

[red5angel]

Rogue - I agree on all of your points but - "Trust me on this, even if it works most of the time you will get very injured trying to frequently absorb your opponents strikes. " We dont try to absorb them but train to if we have to. I dont wantt o get punched either but I dont mind if I do, or if I have to absorb some of it. Why? Because I am training to deal with it in an efficeint manner!

Rill - I dont think you are understanding what I am saying here. I have been hit very hard, I know what it feels like, the point is that if you train to absorb it, its a good thing, if you train to stop it its a good thing, if you train to do both it is a better thing. Blocking works only some of the time, so what do you do the rest of the time? If you have been able to block everything that has been sent you then you are either some sort of martial wunderkind or you are lying. If you fight you will get hit, so train to expect it and to deal with it when it comes.
You ownt understand it unless you experience it, I suggest you do if you get the chance

KF Cowboy has hit the nail on the head.

[Lindley57]

Getting hit deserves attention by each individual studying martial arts. It has been said that many fighters become "short circuited" when clocked by a good shot because they trained only to be offensive - too much static training and less live partners. Kung Fu is not designed to block every technique. Hence one must be prepared, as with any combative situation, to accept the chances of getting hit. When you are training, getting hit should be an experience that makes you study "how the technique got in". The beauty of the Kung Fu is its simultaneous attack and defense, so the idea of blocking should be more appropriately replaced by "intercepting".

Positioning of the hands and body is parmount Pak Sao has been mentioned as a technique to discuss. Pak Sao takes center and does not have to be as powerful as much as it has to have good timing and proper position. Test this and you will find that your Pak Sao can do the job with a lot less energy even against a powerful strike. Pak Sao should also be followed up by another technique while closing the gap.

Boxing training is especially useful in regards to the subject of getting hit because they are trained to "take shots".

Recognition, Reaction, and Recovery. The key to reducing the chances of being hit would be in the study of recovery.

Good luck in your Kung Fu

[Chum Kil]

"Pak Sao should also be followed up by another technique while closing the gap."

I use a Tchun Sau/Lop Sau with a 3 punch follow-up after the Pak Sau.

[Rill]

I know what it feels like, the point is that if you train to absorb it, its a good thing, if you train to stop it its a good thing, if you train to do both it is a better thing. Blocking works only some of the time, so what do you do the rest of the time? If you have been able to block everything that has been sent you then you are either some sort of martial wunderkind or you are lying. If you fight you will get hit, so train to expect it and to deal with it when it comes.

Yes, I agree that getting rid of that shock value from a strike is good - you should get hit often enough during training to lose this. I don't have a problem getting hit, I get hit quite hard and often at training. Nor do I think I could block everything that came in, but ideally by the time I actually get hit I have either

a) already taken much of the incoming force away with my tan sau, etc.

or

b) hit the opponent first so that the strike doesn't carry as much force

Is there another possibility? Sure - it's that my training has not paid off and I'm getting hit in a direct confrontation. But I train hard for this very reason. I don't want to get hit. I won't let you hit me. It's that simple.

I am in no way going to believe that you are in any way capable of 'absorbing' the force from a direct, unchallenged strike that hits you in the head. The body may be capable of taking the force from a blow due to the muscles, but you don't have those muscles in your head, and the transfer of energy is not going to be dissipated by your 'absorption'. If you're training to absorb my hit, then good luck, but the day you get hit in the head and think you're going to absorb the impact is the day you get a rather big awakening.

[anerlich]

Some MA's claim it is possible to dissipate the impact of a strike to the head by allowing the head and neck to move with the impact, "rolling with" or shedding the punch. Certainly it is better to keep the chin tucked in and hands up so that one can at least cushion the blow, and avoid taking it on more vlnerable parts of the anatomy, e.g. better take a shot on the jaw than in the throat, the forehead rather than the face, on the hand/glove rather than the temple or Stomach9.

That said, I remain unconvinced as to the real efficacy of such tactics or whether they'd be much help against a pro heavyweight boxer. The few times I have been KO'ed in training or on the football field, I never saw or felt the knockout blow or had any recollection of it afterwards, let alone have any ability to go about "absorbing" it.

Some of the latest scientific views on head trauma have it that it may be better, if you are going to get hit hard on the skull, that it remain absolutely stationary rather than be allowed to whip around, that most of the damage to the brain occurs during "whiplash" rather than the impact itself. My father serves on an Ethics Committee considering the appropriateness of experiments investigating this phenomenon on anaesthetised sheep. When you throw that consideration into the mix, determining the "correct" way of dealing with a blow to the head seems pretty difficult.

I'd prefer to avoid such experiments using my own skull, I've got enough problems already in that regard :cool:

[dbulmer]

Anerlich,
Agree with you. My own view is that Shi* happens.

Everyone

Also and perhaps I am wrong here I also think it's pretty arrogant of us to assume that when we are hit we'll absorb it. Adrenaline will help a little as will good technique but a skilled opponent and it could be a WC guy - hopefully a remote possibility but a possibility nonetheless - will do everything possible to hurt me and it'll be multiple strikes.

I always assume that if you fight you will get hit but I hope to do more damage first by being in a position where I have the advantage - what I don't want to do is *assume* that I have developed an ability to take punishment -I'd rather dish it out !

I don't want to be a target - moving out of the way seems to be a more economical and safer option than absorbing potentially fatal blows. I don't think anyone is suggesting being a punch bag but this idea of soaking up force seems to be a potentially dangerous means of self-defence.