Is Wing Chun a hard or soft martial art ?

[old jong]

"Wing Chun follows the universal law of yin and yang, and as such, it is both hard and soft; internal as well as external in it's
approach to learning and training. Every technique and movement contain both internal and external aspects. Just as there is no light without dark, no warm without cold, and no day without night no technique can be totally hard or soft.All things exist within this balance of opposite forces. Sil Lum Tao, Wing Chun's first form, exhibits this quite vividly, working simultaneously on the
mental and internal side as well as the physical and basic structural side of the art."...This is a quote from my sigung website. (Augustine Fong)

"Is Wing chun considered a hard style?

Wing Chun is considered both hard and soft (internal/external). Wing Chun follows idea of Yin/Yang, no technique can be purely Yin or Yang, every movement must contain aspects of hard and soft."...From My Sifu (Patrick Gordon)

Le wing Chun est-t-il un style interne ou externe?

R: Le Wing Chun comprend des élements reliés au deux tendances.Il a cependant un penchant vers l'aspect interne...From (moi-même!) ;)

So,this is how my Wing Chun family consider Wing Chun regarding it's place on the soft/hard or Internal/external palette!
What are your views on this subject?

P.S. we don't throw chi balls! ;) :D

[TjD]

it seems to me that many styles start hard and add the soft;

others like tai chi start soft and add the hard

wing chun however rides that fine line in the middle, as both hard and soft


as to being truely "internal", wing chun is not, in the sense that we do qi gung excersizes; our yi does not lead our qi

however, in siu lim tau we do practice relaxing the whole body and finding our root - which is a beginning step of qi gong, however after that instead of gathering qi and spreading it to our extremities, we gain power using our jarn di lik (sp?) energy, "resisting" the automatic extension of our tan sau and fook sau, and "resisting" the automatic retraction of our wu sau

by "resisting" i do NOT mean being tense, or dynamic tension, merely trying to slow this automatic retraction and gaining more of this power

peace
travis

[S.Teebas]

Old jong...

When you make adjustments to your winig chun... eg stance. Would you say your initial alterations (corrections) begin on the inside or the outside? (straight spine, linking of body, use of centre etc..)

Basically what im thinking is becasue all my improvements are baised now upon fixing up my internal part of the equasion (which in turn effects my external),...well it seems to me the internal leads the external. Also my sifu gets me to concentrate on the internal adjustments..trying to fix these. Then when thats right the external you mention all falls into place. As opposed to other styles where the teacher may correct your external, and leave you to discover any internal for yourself.

Of course it cant be denied that the external exists, and it does play an important role. But what prioty you place upon its existance in your training is really up to you.

[old jong]

I think (Talking for myself only now!)that we should not denie the internal as well as the external in Wing Chun. Proper stance/alingment/body structure,you name it,produce power and stability. How much of that power and stability comes from the internal or the external?...I believe it can't be separated so,both are essential.(unless you are dead!)...(or one of Ashida Kim astral spies!)...
Treating Wing Chun as a hard style and relying on "pushups and sit-ups" and muscle is bad as well as imitating bad Tai-Chi (good Tai-Chi is very strong!) and yealding to the most insignificant wind!...I have seen both of these approach before,believe me!...
Wing Chun is Kung Fu and it is powerful and agressive but this comes from a suttle balance of mind,body unity,structure,relaxation and...normal physical force!

[red5angel]

I think that hard and soft, external/internal are labels and not wholly accurate. All arts contain principles of each idea, some just tend to have more so of one then the other.

[Chum Kil]

I agree with what you guy's are saying. I would like to add the following though. To me Wing Chun is Soft as in redirecting energy where as Karate is Hard, force against force. Wing Chun is internal and external, internal as having a good root, structure, Sung (relaxing with Yi), external as having good body mechanics, positioning. Also Wing Chun is small and gets smaller as Karate starts big and gets smaller. I believe the Internal Martial Arts all start small and get smaller. With this I mean economy of motion. The way I do Wing Chun is kind of hard to explain in words, it has to be felt by the other person to get my meaning across. The feeling I get when I train is both internal and external, but hard to explain in words, it's more internal I guess. I used to do Tang Soo Do and the emphasis we were taught was called Chung Dan Yu which means "middle of the way". Could this also mean internal/external or hard/soft, yes. But the feeling I got after training could be put into words, sore, external. Funny thing is in Wing Chun we have 10 times more partner drills, Tang Soo Do we basically did line work, forms, Ho Shin Sool (Wrist Grabs), free sparring maybe once a week. So you tell me why Wing Chun is more internal to me than Tang Soo Do, which should be the same since it is classified internal/external as is Wing Chun and why is Wing Chun more internal to me when more contact is being made than Tang Soo Do? Should I not have the same feeling (external)in Wing Chun as in Tang Soo Do because of more contact? Strange thing this Wing Chun, at least to me.

[old jong]

You have more contact in Wing Chun,yes, but that contact is more feeling the force/energy of the training partner than going against it.
I don't know much about Tang Soo Do . Is it not similar (in some ways) to shotokan Karate of the traditionnal form of TKD?...The ITF version?...
Anyway, in Karate,the "softer versions use more footwork and "esquives" than the harder ones who generaly just block on place. This is the main differencie.
Some schools also practice the "san-shin" kata who is nothing less than a chi-kung exercice!...So,as usual,the harder meets the softer!...Balance!...;)

[Chum Kil]

"You have more contact in Wing Chun,yes, but that contact is more feeling the force/energy of the training partner than going against it."

True, but this seems to me as Chi Sau/Cross-Arm Chi Sau. We do alot of application drills also. We also do trapping which leaves alot of red spots/bruises all over your forearms.

"I don't know much about Tang Soo Do . Is it not similar (in some ways) to shotokan Karate of the traditionnal form of TKD?...The ITF version?..."

There was no such thing as TKD when Tang Soo Do first was established in Korea by Hwang Kee.

What I'm saying is even though Wing Chun training has more contact, why did I feel more run down from doing Tang Soo with less contact. I never ever heard the word "relax" in Tang Soo, but in Wing Chun it is emphasized regularly. Could this be a factor? Maybe the techniques themselves stressed different muscles. Who knows. All I can say is after training Wing Chun I feel very energetic, after training TSD all I can say is "kill me get it done with", no energy what so ever.

[old jong]

Yeah the bruises!...Now that I think about it, I realise that I have not got one for a long time!...I practice as hard as ever but it seems like I don't clash as hard as before with my forearms. I must be doing something right!...Or ,my arms are now made of thick leather!... ;)

There must be a lot of "aerobics" and kicking in Tang Soo Do. Sometimes, the training is harder than the art itself! ;)

[Chum Kil]

The Bong Sau/Lop Sau drill gets me the most. Maybe when I had a Mook Jhong to practice on it kept my forearms a little more conditioned. Tang Soo is not aerobic, but after class you will be drenched. Lots of kicking and lots of hand techniques, and combos, but to me useless compared to Wing Chun.

[curtis]

HI guys
I have a question? It seems to me that everyone has read the same book, on the yin and yang. (Im a bit confused) Why does everyone assume hard and soft mean external/internal?
I remember a quote by Bruce Lee, in an interview stating something like this. Karates energy is like a hitting with the steel bar. And Gung Fu's energy is like hitting with the ball and chain.
isnt that Hard vs soft?

And can't internal energy be hard? I know in Shotokan Karate we were taught the concept of striking was like a piston or arrow, the energy hits and drives through its intended target.

Isn't hard and soft all a matter of interpretation or understanding of energy?

In Wing Chun Do I was taught that concussion (the control and depth of energy) is the way to damage a human. It has nothing to do with CHI (the ultimate source of internal power) I believe that to be an entirely separate topic.

But again that is my understanding. Does anyone here have a better or more in depth explanation of what is hard vs. soft?

And why if the yin and yang is two sides of the same coin (so to speak) why does everybody assume it means inside and outside, why can't it mean top and bottom? Or front and back?
I believe that question to be about is easy to explain as E=MC2.

If you do not know, here's a bit of trivia. Albert Einstein wrote a paper explaining his theory. This simple concept took 80 pages to explain.
I hope that the yin and yang theory can be explained in slightly less words, then E=MC2 DID?
Sincerely
C.A.G.

[dezhen2001]

well, let me fumble about with my own thoughts on this :D


And why if the yin and yang is two sides of the same coin (so to speak) why does everybody assume it means inside and outside, why can't it mean top and bottom? Or front and back?

It's all those things. The interaction of them and how they create something. You can't have internal without external, inside without outside, top without bottom. big without small...etc. it's how they come together... The is is just my current understanding, so i'm sure others can explain better than me :)

To expand on something Chum Kil said... i remember when i did shotokan, boxing etc. i used to ALWAYS be drenched with sweat after training. Wing Chun can be very tiring also, but in a different way (maybe more mentally?). I think it is because we are trying to relax and use the least amount of energy possible to do something. That was never mentioned in anything i did before (apart from aikido).
There are times when my seniors can be so soft, like you can't even feel them. Other times their techniques are very strong and powerful. But it's a different 'strength' than say karate or whatever. It feels different... Strength does not neccessarily imply hard and rigid, but more how being soft and hard interact to create strength (?).

just some thoughts,
david

edit: my spelling is bad today :(