linament help

[flem]

i've got friend who has fluid on the knee. he tried ice-no help. the only thing i know of is zhenf gu shui or jow, but i know they are for bones/bruise. is there any over the counter linaaments for this condition?

[BeiTangLang]

If he has fluid on the knee,..its better to go have it drained by a doctor. If it sits & lets the body filter it out, there will be a clump that will remain for a long time.

[flem]

thanx for the reply beitanglang, he is trying to avoid that. that is why he asked me. since tcm deals with remedies w/out surgery i was hoping there was another treatment- like one of the linaments, or something similar, the ones i am familiar with deal mainly with muscle.
anybody else know of anything-maybe massage tech's...?

[Art D]

flem
Having your knee drained is not surgery. They insert a needle and drain the fluid. Had it done myself . Also heat will move more fluid out than ice.

By the way thanks for the suport. email me.

[MDK Tiger]

I too have this problem. Let me describe it for you.

Almost exactly 4 years ago, I leaned down to place an item on in a pantry shelf, and when I did my left knee popped real loud. Fluid built up on the knee and even though over time, it healed, I have always felt like something was loose in there. It took weeks for it to heal, and I did go to an Orthopedic surgeon who said that the only way he could tell if something was wrong, was do to an MRI. I declined and like I said eventually it healed.

However I just recently started Hung Gar Kung Fu, and I was afraid that the low stances would aggrevate the old injury, but that over time this style might also strengthen the muscles of the hips and knee joints, thus taking some of the stress off of the knee. However after just three weeks of training, fluid has once again built up around this knee. UGHH!

I am wondering if some other style might be more suitable for me, I am 45 years old, and played too much tennis in my youth along with doing a couple of years of Taekwon-Do, which I think might have contributed to my knee problem.

I am trying to avoid hyper-extending the knee, and that is why I looked to Kung Fu instead of Taekwon-Do. My question for everyone on this part of the forum is, will I find the same type of high kicks aimed at nothing but air in Northern Praying Mantis that is typical of your average Taekwon-Do class that results in hyper-extended joints, or does Northern Praying Mantis typically have other (better) training methods that is better suited for us old geezers with creaky knees?

I am thinking that if nothing else, I should probably investigate Wing Chun or maybe even Tai Chi Chuan, but recently I have been intrigued at what Northern Praying Mantis might be like for me. Any suggestions or thoughts?

[Art D]

PM dose not have lots of high kicking and low stances to an extreem . This of course dose not include wah lum that has high kicks, jumping and low stance work that will bother your knee. Find an instructor that will work w/ your situation. PM has great hands and movement. It can be done if you approch it wise.

[flem]

mdktiger,

i agree w/ artd. your instructor should be willing to make the necessary changes. one thing that many do not realize is the real depth and understanding that went into cma. unlike karate and other less deveoped styles, cma uses "target" hands in many of its kicks, you've undoubtedly seen them kick the hands in practice. besides teaching one whether or not they are issueing power effectively, it also prevents over extention of the knee, thus preventing injury and adding to the overall longevity of the practitioner- low stances are another matter altogether-especially at your age, plus they are relatively useless in today's self defense environment

[TaoBoy]

flem, have you referred your friend to a tcm practitioner?
it would save all the guessing and it may fix the problem sooner.

[Art D]

Taoboy. COOL my email is taoman@tampabay.rr.com Good piont Taoboy . why run around, go to a good tcm person.
Flem where is your buddy? I have some good connections in the Bay area.

[yu shan]

The thread "starter" surprises me with this question. Sorry, see a Doc about drainage. What does a TCM person do for this? Just curious, be specific. As for Massage, their is preventive maintenance. What are your thoughts Sifu Art?

[Art D]

Yu Shan
A good tcm person can use A. P to help the local cerculation , that will help w/ the drainage. There are also internal and external hebs that will help w/ the imflamation. As far as my point of view if it was me I'd do both, get it drained and then use TCM to help heal it . As for massage, this type of injure is trama. To prevent it, train smart, warm up well, work streghth and flexability to suport the knees. don't over do the extreemly deep stance work, more is not better.

[yu shan]

Thank you Sifu Arthur. At our age we must train smart, learnt over the years. I find a pre-warm up before stetching helps, along with a post work-out stretch. Totally disagree with the whole "low" stance way of training. Somewhat low is good, just have to make sure of proper knee alignment, this does not get taught in WL. The southern influence of CLF stances in WL.

What are your thoughts on Glucosamine Sulfate?

[Art D]

Yu Shan G . S works great, lots of cilnical evidance to say it works . MSM g.s is even better.

[woliveri]

yu shan wrote:

Totally disagree with the whole "low" stance way of training.

I'll have to disagree with your black/white position on this subject. I think it depends on body type. For MC and DW of WL I think it fits. Also, a lot of Vietnamese/Chinese I know also fit into that body frame, myself included although I'm a little tall. I think if done correctly for these body types it will work. That is, there are many different training techniques for developing/supporting this strength other than Tam Tui (one legged deep knee bends) exercises. For those like Art D, Sean C, even Tracy F even though this are talented MA'ist this type of training doesn't fit.

[Art D]

I think that all of the above metioned , worked the deep stuff and did it well . I have never had bad knees( not to say I have not had injuries, train enough and you will) and to this day my knees are fine . the prob lies in the lack of prep in going to the deep stuff and the over training of it. And to my discridit I may have pushed Yu Shan to early for him , but that was then , I also must say that was not the case w/ all of us at my kwan. Back to the piont , you may be right that some body types will do better w/ it . even those that do still need to be care full not to over train. thats all . IMHO it is a training method and it does develop great streghth, on an application perspective it gives you some versitility in some ways but i don't think of it as a practical place to be in a fight.

[yu shan]

Thank you for pushing me to the edge Sifu AD. As for myself, I had years of prior experience, no need for "prep". Had fun with your exhausting workouts.

What are your thoughts on low stance work, north vs south?

No one here has given "their" explanation of, knee alignment, pelvic alignment, etc.

[Art D]

Your welcome yu shan . thank you for the continued suport . as for North vs south alignment is alingment, the body needs to be stacked IMO. as for horse stance training I like a more open knee than the 90 o bend. plevic needs to be tucked up, hard but not imposible @ 90 o . most new practitioners IMO when trying the 90 o bend will likely lose the pelvis. thats why we use the whip. ha ha ha. whip those new guys in to the right stance. only kidding guys !