Joseph Cheng book re-released !

[stuartm]

Hi all,

Was in Chinatown, London on the weekend and picked up a copy of '108 Wooden Dummy - secret techniques of Wing Chun' by Joseph Cheng - originally re-released in 1976 on Paul Crompton books, and now re-released on the same label. Its a good book with very clear pictures of the dummy form.

The book also has an insert which confirms that Joseph Cheng is dead - I know many people have asked this question in the past.

Cost £15 from Guanghwa bookstore.

Cheers, Stu

[yuanfen]

Do you know how Joseph Cheng died? From UK he had originally gone to Saudi Arabia to provide bodyguard training I think. He wasa student of Lee Sing. In their wing chun there were several
different influences involved resulting ina little more sideways
stance than most Ip man lines. Paul Lam another early wc figure in UK was more straight ahead...I think early Leung Shun training.
Paul Lam had a some after effects of early polio but his arms were strong by any standard- he easily overwhelmed Cheng's structure.All good ma people though.

[kj]

Originally posted by yuanfen
He wasa student of Lee Sing. In their wing chun there were several different influences involved resulting ina little more sideways stance than most Ip man lines.

As you may remember from discussions long ago, my first Wing Chun training had both Ip Man and Lee Shing influences. Confirming your assertion, I did encountered more emphasis on side/slant body positioning then, than now.

There was also more preference for outside positioning as it was deemed "safer." In contrast, my training now more often enjoys inside positioning.

Just some random if irrelevant observations.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[yuanfen]

Not irrelevant at all KJ-on target. A very good friend of mine studied with both Cheng and Lam.

[reneritchie]

Lee Shing first learned Gulao Wing Chun in China from the Fung family (known as Pien San or Side Body Wing Chun), and possibly from someone named Fong Min-Yee. They preserve this lineage in a set they call Dai Nim Tao (Big Idea). The Fung's Gulao consists of 12 San Sik, two of which are Siu Lien Tao (Little First Training) and Dai Nim Tao (Big First Training). The Dai Nim Tao name probably fit better with Siu Nim Tao (Little Idea), and the other To Lo (Sets) which Lee Shing learned from the Yip Man lineage. Joseph Lee, a classmate of Joseph Cheng (and Simon Lau, Austin Goh, etc.) wrote an article (http://www.wingchunkuen.com/archives/readings/readings_gulao_lee01.shtml) about it a year or so ago.

Rgds,

RR

[yuanfen]

Lee Sing learned Yip man wing chun after he learned earlier material and made his own integration. When he taught his teaching included Yip Man's slt and chum kiu. I dont have Cheng's book right at hand - but both Lee Sing and Cheng tried to teach the dummy as a form rather than just separate movements.
As KJ pointed out about the outside inside distinctions- in the Lam-Cheng encounter Lam really took the inside and ina powerful way. Lam is Hakka BTW.
I am unsure about the duration of Goh's training- but he appears to have a more muscled approach than Lee Sing. Informed opinions- but no time machine for verification.

[Neo]

Its a good book with very clear pictures of the dummy form.

Excellent - thanks StuartM, I lost my copies of Joseph Cheng's work a long time ago and have never been able to get hold of them. A quick search on the net found the details of the guanghwa address and I'm now off to order it.

Many thanks!:)

Neo

[loaddown]

To Whom It May Concern,

The information provided by Yuanfen is highly suspect and speculative. For instance he it was who first put forward the idea that the late Sifu Joseph Cheng have predominant inclination for the ‘side stance’ and hence favoured the ‘Side Body’ style. This is a wild speculation on his part that suited his own agenda as he belonged to another different lineage. As all different styles of martial art e.g. Karate, Kung Fu, and Taekwondo have side stances in their repertoires just because a practitioner to be in one of them for a short instance before changing into a different front facing one does not make him favour the ‘side stance’ and hence it does not make him a predominately ‘Side Body’ stylist.

As to his other accounts it is I think too important to the reputation of the Lee Shing branch as part of the Ip Man family for him be so loose and florid with his information. As a supposed highly accomplished academician he should know better than to be imprecise and wrong in parts if not in all of his original statement without sources and detail information for others to verify.

Wai-Sing Fung

[yuanfen]

Per custom, principle and fact you are entitled to your opinion.
But there is misinterpretation and misreading on you part on what was said.

Firstly- I did not say predominantly- I said-"ina little more sideways
stance than most Ip man lines."

Secondly- the sideways refers to the positioning of the shoulders.
Sure all styles have side stances...but there are differences in the facing of the shoulders.

Thirdly: after Rene Ritchie's post I clearly pointed out that while Lee Sing had pre Ip Man wc exposure that his capstone learning and teaching was Ip man wing chun.

Fourthly, I denigrated no one and have always credited Lee Sing with introducing wing chun in the UK. His differnce in perspectives from Paul Lam is a fact of life and not unknown in the wing chun world. I have robbed no one of their dignity- so what's the beef?
I respect Lee Sing, Jodeph Cheng and Paul lam.

Fifthly, your reference to my academic hat is irrelevant. I dont wear that hat in my involvement in wing chun.My involvement in wing chun is practice based but of course I dont jettison human reasoning and informed opinion..

Sixthly, my opinion while merely an opinion is an informed one.
I have carefully in the past looked at the photos of Cheng and the positioning of the feet and shoulders. But not pictures alone.
You underestimate me. Dont you think its possible for me to have
a primary source idea on how Lee Sing and Joseph Cheng actually moved. Relax- there is great diversity in wing chun-practically every line and sifu do some little thing atleast somewhat differently.

Lstly-Regarding my having an agenda regarding Lee Sing-
simply because I belong to a different line- you cant be serious.
If you are-Pray tell me- whats my agenda?

[loaddown]

To Whom It May Concern:
Regarding the facing of both feet and shoulders in the side stance, the limited search I done so far have shown me that in actual practical demonstrations most instructors when in actual use tended to have a slant in their feet and shoulders when applying a move that include the side stance. This limited search I suspect is true in general for all martial arts.

The use of the slant in both feet and shoulders in the side stance could be the need for adjustment for the simulated reality of a combat situation. Given the case that most practical use of the side stance have the adjustment of the slant in both feet and shoulders, then using it for an instance as the situation dictates does not prove that the practitioner favours the side stance nor does it prove that the practitioner is a ‘Side Body’ adherent.

I am very curious on the matter that Yuanfen raised involving a person unknown to me named Paul Lam with regard to Lee Shing, and Joseph Cheng whom I do know a little. Even though Yuanfen was unwilling to satisfy my curiosity I am glad to read that he respect them all.

Wai-Sing Fung.

[yuanfen]

Dear Loaddown-
I do respect Lee Sing, Joseph Cheng and Paul Lam. Do you know how Joseph Cheng died? I had heard it was in the PRC.
Regarding the slant etc at the shoulder level. I and most of my brothers and sisters stand fairly/relatively square shouldered even in the so called side stance i.e, after the chor ma or chum kiu turn.
Re: Paul Lam---if your profile is correct- my allusions are about things before your time.No loss of honor for anyone involved. Paul Lam was an early student of Leung Shun.(check the so called genealogy book). Kenneth Chung may have known him or known of him.
PL was Hakka in his ethnic background. He moved to UK after Lee Sing had already started teaching there. PL had polio in his youth- he could use his legs but they were somewhat weak. he
compensated for them with very superior arm development and
close quarters direct inside hand skills. being the new kid on the block and being Hakka he faced some problems. He had a very intense period of teaching and
then left teaching and like many Hakka he applied himself and worked hard in the food business...moving on to develop marketing chickens on the continent- he made and lost a fortune-
the latter partly due to goons. My understanding of this was developed and correlated from several quite different sources- but anyone can believe what they choose- and that they will.
With good wishes, Joy

[loaddown]

To Whom It May Concern:

I am not a personal associate of the late Sifu Joseph Cheng. However what little information that has filtered through did showed him to have been active internationally in security matters. It was during one such last crime-fighting venture that an accident befell him.

I could be wrong we just have to wait for more information from the direct source if it is suitable for the people concern. The re-release of his book could help. Unfortunately it had already sold out in the third day on the Monday morning when I went to the store.

Wai-Sing Fung

[Neo]

Hi all

For those in the UK, amazon.co.uk have Joseph Cheng's book in stock. Ordered a copy on saturday and got it tuesday. Still wish I hadn't lent out my 2nd edition, but hey, fills a gap on my shelf.