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Troy Dunwood
07-15-2001, 03:03 AM
Chinese martial arts is one of the oldest forms of unarmed self-protection known to mankind. It has spawned many centuries to this present day in what now seems to be it's state of perfection. With the combination of traditional standards and modern technology it grew beyond those that has initially created the respected styles. It is the responsibility of those who are put in the position of heirs and school leaders to continue preserving the legacy left by past generations. As teachers we must strived to pass on the authentic knowledge for future generations, we should be apt to teach not only the physical skill but the martial virtue as well so as to shape and and form the true martial character and spirit of our students. As students we must be apt to learn whatever it is our teacher is instructing us in, this sometimes takes you to ponder on a skill,theory or principle respecting all that teacher shares with us. We must get back to traditional standards of teacher and student and the bond between the two, it's the beginning as well as where the foundation is being layed.

passingthru
07-15-2001, 07:47 AM
I think you mean well. I hope so. There is an innocence about you, to pay devout homage to your teachers and the tradition they stand for.

So, I will say. I will say that what is needed is not to go backwards, but to go forwards. I don't think that modern man is completely the same as his fellows from the distant past. I feel that in the several hundred years to come, the human race will be different. It will become something else because I think we are too feeble to engage the future as we are. That is how I feel.

This feebleness extends to those who would have us think that they are in control, certainly beyond the common man, because of special training. This training and any degree of mastery is not as a result of good character or kindness or of compassion, though those things are fortunate when they are present in those who have pursued the arts of focus, concentration, to the point of practical use. I will respect the trained ability of a person, compassion, creativity, even necessary aggression in the face of what these arts are for, which I don't think is completely understood. I certainly don't.

You call what we have a state of perfection! I am not convinced of this. Not at all. I, too, believe that the arts are to be preserved. But, not put on an altar of perfection. Indeed, they will evolve, I believe. Perfection is not even an applicable term. These energies that the teachers, of low, medium, high levels borrow from, partake in, are not under their control. Some fulfill more of the potential of the human mind and spirit than many aspire to. But, this does not make them better than anyone else in terms of being human beings. They fight; they are jealous of each other; they use people for their own ends like many do, only with less accountability. They can also be defenders of the weak and healers. It can be that both negative and positive roles are within the same individual, and that this individual leads a group of people who are blinded to the fact that this person is simply human, within (Not above) the human condition.

To pass on the authentic. You mean, the right forms in the right order? You mean the morality that is not necessaraily suited to one who would be a free spirit? A morality that is sometimes not practiced by the preacher. Frankly I have no use for morality. Too many rules make for something that is not good, just as anarchy in toto allows for something wrong. I'm not explaining this well. I know. It is because my understanding is far from complete. But, at least I admit it. I am sick and tired of being told that this Master or this Guru or this Wise Man "knows", and I must follow. I am a lost sheep in this morass of pseudo wisdom and blind following. I understand the security it can give to follow the ones who know the way, and who ask to be followed (!), especially in terms of their art, their way, as if others are not complete enough. And I know that some are in better health and of higher awareness than is usual. That is to their credit, to be sure, but is not to be held in awe.

The traditional standards of teacher and student have, in measure, been replaced by the economics and social climate of the modern world. I am not saying that there are not exceptions to what I state in the sense that truly traditional bonds can be present and operational in the present day. I just don't think, however, in the broader sense, this is possible. I think that it is misleading for people to think that this can be so at the present time. And, in fact, I feel that as beautiful as these traditional views can be, in their reality when that has been the case, or in idealized beguilement, I think that we will not return to what you allude to. I'm not quite sure what is next, but I don't feel it is this.

I think that we should respect each other, but I do not necessarily hold to respecting everything a given teacher hands down. The teaching is not as it was, nor the bond as it was. To be taught from the ground up is not within the grasp of most people attending class. To have a teacher want each and every student who wants to try to be his/her best, do just that, is necessary in order to bring about what you are asking for, at least in part. It is the only thing that is necessary for me to have faith in this system at all. In my spirit, I will not bow to anything less than this. That is the bottom line!

The energies are there. There are ways to access them. This is to be done with honesty and respect on both sides. I don't mean lip service. I mean the real thing. People are people and they should be allowed to live according to their true natures. I give a bottom line. And much can be interpolated from that statement. Not trying to cover all the bases. I couldn't if I tried.

I might have other things to add, but it is late and I must sign off. I realize that I take the risk of offending many. I can't help that. It's not my aim, but it might come with the territory.
I am sorry if that is the case. Very sorry. Still, I am as a rooster on the fence, and it is dawn.

passingthru

Troy Dunwood
07-15-2001, 06:01 PM
I respect your view but it is the job of the Sifu to pass authentic knowledge so as to preserve the traditional methods, this is the only way real kung fu will survive. Let me also state this is not merely physical skill, but life lessons in general. Many people want to learn the traditional art and few have actually been exposed to what they seek. Like my Sifu used to say, when you have a martial science that was created many years ago and its prevalent and popular in modern times the transmission between teacher and student have been a very close. The state of kung fu now is not like it was years ago, most students are not hard core dedicated like those of the past when kung fu was there very existence. My statement on its state of perfection meaning this, have you ever seen a popular martial style for example in its founding area, some refer to this as the village style where respective system were created, most styles have undergone transformations bringng there styles to even greater development or at least more perfect than they were. At least in my opinion kung fu is more perfect than it was in earlier centuries, this however is looking at the bigger picture because there are only so many ways you can punch or kick, but modern times allows us to see things that they back then could not, for example do you know a sifu who practice traditional bone setting, how is it that he goes about to locate broken bones, modern times helps to perfect this skill by the introduction of the Xray. I recall a article in "Secrets of Kung Fu" magazine in the 70's between the great Choy Lee Fut Sifu Tu and his son talking about the same thing. But in short without the bond between master and student the very fundamentals of what Chinese martial arts is all about will leave one lacking in my opinion.

Kune
07-19-2001, 01:52 AM
In my opinion.. kungfu today compared to the way it was in the olden days is not even comparable. Today's kungfu is lower than crap. Back in the day.. people studied kungfu because their life depended on it... the sifu even tried to kill the student with the mentality that a dead student is better than a student with no skills who will bring a bad name to the system/teacher/family. Students back than studied more hours a day than a fulltime blue collar worker. Back than, their versions of guns/bazookas was what system of kungfu they studied and what technniques they knew how to use(iron palm, dimmaks, etc.) Modern day kungfu.. is studied by most as a hobby, and to anyone who has some cash, and only a dozen hours a week or more. People dont even believe in things like chi/ginn and the stuff the kungfu masters were able to do with that stuff back in the day. For those that actually might know something, you know those are real. What does that say? It seems that kungfu is going backwards and degrading and losing its effectiveness and integrity. The knowledge of true kungfu is slowly fading away from the public. There is a reason why martial arts have such a bad name.. its because almost 90% if not more of kungfu taught is totally fake or 90% incomplete. Thats why everyone is crosstraining and such. A complete system has no need of this. No one was dumb enough to just specialize in one style of combat, because this was life and death they where dealing with. A true kungfu system is complete in all its fighting aspects and more. Which brings me back to my previous point, 90% if not more of kungfu taught to the public is totally fake or 90 incomplete. But hey, that just might be me ;)

peace

sui-fuw
07-19-2001, 02:13 AM
so are you saying you can't learn from the past mr thru[more into science]is it virtue?
troy has a good point,you look to much into genetics and evolment.[watch Rocky IV]see how they train?

you see 2 steps back 1 step forward.
try to see 1 step back 2 forward.

Troy Dunwood
07-19-2001, 08:05 PM
My friends, kung fu today can and have relived some of the glory it has attained from time past, this can be witnessed by a few who has dedicated themselves to such training. However my point is merely the relationship between master and student. And by the way, kung fu is not weak today, as it may have been strong yesterday, it's just that the learner today isn't as focused and determined as they were back then. Kung Fu is the same, if you don't practice you'll never get it, its a simple logic. This have nothing to do with kung fu, however everything to do with the learner. And as far as kung fu being fake, maybe it's who it's being passed down from who isn't a adequate propagator of real kung fu, so this also brings the responsibility to the indiviual and not kung fu. Now let me share something else, what is kung fu? and what is boxing? we should be able to clearly see the two. We need strong kung fu to have a great boxing skill, as I see it, kung fu and it's development allows one to be good a boxing and weaponry so if your kung fu is weak your boxing technique will be weak as well. So lets not say kung fu is fake, rather under-developed.

nospam
07-19-2001, 10:59 PM
Interesting topic.

Although some what melodramatic, I agree more with passingthru than Sifu Troy Dunwood. The majority of people today are unconcerned with anything more than their reflection or for those they hold dear. This leads to unhealthy spirit or energy as someone called it.

There will always be tradition, and of that, the untraditional. Gung fu is not an energy of itself, it is merely a blueprint or philosophy to actualize belief; belief in what being the greater question or definitive cause in my mind. Gung fu is limited to the belief of its practitioner. If one is truly able to believe, then that person's gung fu has the opportunity to become strong. If I become a student of a person with great gung fu but lack belief, gung fu remains as strong as each successive generation.

Gung fu is not about boxing nor fancy techiques with pretty sounding names. At least, my belief of my gung fu is such. Rather, as I mentioned before, it can become a blueprint for something greater- achievement. I can no more transmit achievement to another as I can pass my gung fu to another. Achievement is universal, but universally personal. What I can do is provide interpretation of the blueprint or guidance while one dedicates themself to a philosophy that might prosper many beliefs. It literally becomes a journey. And yes, now I am the melodramatic one.

I have long since realised that for me, what has become my gung fu, has evolved to much more than a Chinese martial art. What gung fu has generally come to be popularized and romanticized as, is what I refer to as first-level information. It is a rose without its thorn :cool:

nospam.

sui-fuw
07-20-2001, 02:01 AM
good insight nos,you seek true and not the truth.

troy what is real kung fu?

Troy Dunwood
07-20-2001, 03:49 AM
First of all we have to understand that Kung or Gung Fu is a generic term for chinese martial arts. And Gung Fu would be the underlying skills and principles that give the physical expression life. Now I will still state though, you should receive this foundation from your Master. Now rather or not you choose to continue to travel the same road as your teacher is for the indiviual to decide. This is not in the least to say a student can't and shouldn't develop and explore on their own, because as we do know no two persons are alike. But when it comes to traditional chinese martial arts, the beauty of it, is that if it's kept intact no matter where one may wander you'll always be able to identify a particular skill based on the preservation from one to another.

sui-fuw
07-23-2001, 12:16 AM
troy youve not really answered the question but rather side tract to another question that hasn't been asked.
i agree with you on the virtue however not on the spirit of gung fu,please carry on,i'd like to see where you lead me

Troy Dunwood
07-25-2001, 06:25 PM
Friend, you say i seem to side tract, however I don't think so. Respect, Perserverance, Patience,
Justice and Humility are virtuous qualities that make up the true spirit of Chinese Kung Fu or at least in my opinion. These qualities lay the ground work for sound kung fu training. Ultimely each indiviual can and has their own right to interpret what kung fu is or means to them, but looking at this picture from a historical point of view, I mean your system of martial arts? Is is modern or traditional? Do you know the customs and traditions of your system if any? In my opinion all these things have to do with the above topic that is if you're learning a traditional kung fu system, it goes much beyond the physical art, yet having the ability to create a great spirit and character. My Master Yuan Chan, of the Tung Gar System used to tell me in the Tung Gar style, first a student shoulds learn the history, this entails of course Shaolin Temple and Tung Chin Chin the creator. He used to say if we didn't know anything about the past and the many struggles that were made, this would be a great loss to the kung fu student character. Tung Chin Chin a freedom fighter who's fame and name spread all over China, and this was our history. So as in representing our style we honored our past generations by the way we carried ourselves and practiced our kung fu. He used to say students of Tung Gar should be proud,
knowing that Tung Chin Chin used his fist to rid the country of oppression, however if we didn't know the past how could we possibly incur such virtues that would allow the spiritual development to occur. Now, i'm the first to admit i'm no scholar, but i've been a student of Chinese Martial Arts since 1969, i've had the opportunity to meet and speak with many great kung fu masters, who shared the same sentiments. You know my Sifu used to say you can tell how good a persons kung fu is by the words he speak or doesn't speak.Each is entitled to their own opinion mine has no favor over anyone elses, however I hold dearly the ways of traditional kung fu development and all its splendor and great history.

Kung Lek
07-25-2001, 09:42 PM
hi-
This is a good examination of an important topic concerning the state of Chinese Martial Arts in the modern day.

But can we say that the practice of Martial Arts instills these virtues of righteousness in a student? or is it rather that martial arts allows the student to act in the framework of the stated virtues?

A good teacher would not guide a bully on the path of martial skill. But how long would a bully be willing to develop a sense of virtue, respect for others a path of peace and to act kindly towards his fellows?

Because someone has virtue as defined by philosophical systems and religions, how well can they transmit those virtues to another so that the student may apply them in practical ways?

It is one thing to teach martial arts, it is much more difficult to instill virtues in the unwilling regardless of the best intent.

A good Si Fu will recognize traits of virtue in a potential student and will enhance that students ability to apply those virtues by lessons in martial arts and the Wu De associated with the traditional system s/he offers.

I say a "good" sifu, because it is that sifu who possesses wu de and understands it.

There are many instructors and teachers of martial arts who although they have formiddable martial skill have little in the way of virtue.

This is unfortunate because it pollutes the spirit of their students and does not nurture the path to achieving Kung Fu. Hence the self serving and money driven organizations that are rampant today in the realm of martial arts. The so called mcdojos and mckwoons that hand out black belts like candy to those who are willing to pay for them or be servile without working on the tasks at hand and are rewarded for their servile ways instead of being acknowledged as needing more work.

On the other hand, their are also many Good and in fact Great Si Fu out there who do give the very best and almost always it comes through traditional methods.

My Si Fu has taught me lessons in Kung Fu martial skills and lessons in life and for those teachings I am forever grateful and remain his student and I pay mind to his words with every practice session and many situations I find myself in. So, is this what you are speaking of?

peace

Kung Lek

Troy Dunwood
07-26-2001, 01:02 AM
Kung Lek, thats my point, simply if you are lucky enough to have a Sifu that can help you to recognize and translate those virtues in martial science. Of course there is no room if your're evil from the start and having ill minded intention for learning kung fu none of the above mentioned aspects would apply. But for those Sifu's who do recognize those that would adhere by way of showing those virtuous traits, the relationship between the two would be fantastic. But then as I see it this, is then not for everybody, only those who are capable to adhere.
Simply put, I have come to know many teachers some with great reputations and fantastic skills who are now only commercial teachers looking for only the money. I'm not talking about those who likes to keep their students within the sun, moon and stars, rather those of us who remember how it was when we came up, and how the Sifu was with us. My Sifu would often state, you couldn't go to the store a buy a half a pound of perserverance, patience, humility but he often showed his point when he was around his Master, and the humbling he took on even in front of us he reduced himself this was a lesson I had never seen, even though he was a accomplished martial artist. My teacher would tell me specifically give it back the way it was given. Speaking on this topic I recall my Sifu once stating Master Tung was known as a fighter who helped those that were in need, yet he still had a uncontrollable thing for fighting against the manchus, now simply saying every manchu officer wasn't responsible for the killing of his parents, but it didn't stop him, yet for what he did for his countrymen, this is what he is remembered for. Can we say Tung Chin Chin carried such virtues, my Sifu would say, for China he did and for the Manchus he didn't. I think in all, in times past all students were not even accepted by old minded teachers, so if the Sifu held such qualities in high esteem you could bet his students would be likewise. But, i'm simply saying A Sifu's responsibility is to lay the ground work for his student by also showing the example, at least mine did, and I hold those memories very dear. I only now try to be as forthright and honest in transmitting knowledge that has been given to.