weapons vs the li ga gunn?

[Sui]

what are your experiences of this?

i would like to start with the wing chun pole.

li ga gunn is much shorter than the pole and therefore it is more flow than to balance the more heavy wing chun pole.

i prefer to use a staff of bamboo as even a blade has to find the right angle to sever it.

is there anythig to discuss?lets find out?

sui

[Yum Cha]

Dio Yew (Fishing Rod). Very long. I have a left-handed one I like.

What do you call the middle length staff cut of a young sapling that is thick at one end, and thinner as it goes along? Usually taller than your head?

How long is the Li Ga Gunn? In the shorter staffs, I like Rattan over bamboo, it is more whippy and can do damage on the curve.

I also have a really funny, rather short hardwood staff that is thick in the middle and gets thinner at both ends. I hated it at first, but it has grown on me for warmup spinning and stretching.

Its funny, but we used to have quite a collection of different staffs, but brother Nate broke every one, Sifu finally brought him "the log" and now that he's gone, we train with it in memory of his "technique". It must be 50mm in diameter, made of maple, better than 2 metres long.

..but I really like Kwan Do more...

Part of the answer to the question poised by Sui has to do with technique. Perhaps "fencing" versus "pivoting" style in staff usage. Poke and parry, versus block and slash, end to end. How often one changes grip.

Staff versus blade? Staff can break a blade as blade can cut staff.

...er, not like I have any first hand knowledge, or course. I seemed to miss those Saturday nights out...

[Sui]

assuming you are correct yummy[btw hi long time no chat]what are the other parts to the "answer"?

my grip?i have no "grip".i am to never strangle the staff for it needs to breath.

your blade?is it sure to cut my staff?

nice yummy,but i would like to discuss more.

sui

[fiercest tiger]

Do you hold the little finger around the end of the pole in lee gar?

I know about the grip, you tricky sui fuw!

:D FT

[David Jamieson]

butterfly knives, or eight cut knives can trap long weapons.

pole vs pole is tricky and he with the most skill will win.

spear vs pole is not always good for the pole

Kwan Dao vs pole, will stifle the pole often.

three section staff will trap the pole

whip chain can trap pole.

there are many more examples of weapons that can match or beat the pole of any length.

However...

it is entirely dependent upon the person wielding the weapon.

peace

[Sui]

hi kung lek yes i agree with you if the li-staff was still.and it would show how stagnant the opponants k.f would be.

correct to say"it is entirely dependent upon the person wielding the weapon." but only politically i would say.
i could show the movements of the li staff and you'll be amazed how little basics would demine all the weapons oppose the li staff
there are only two hits.

[David Jamieson]

Hi Sui-

The first Kungfu weapon I learned was staff. A double headed set that has a variety of techs in it that are in themselves quite useful.

I myself favour the staff and have worked it the most of the weapons I have learned. It's an excellent weapon and my personal choice.
It's a good hypothesis to start thinking about how to deal with other weapons and how to use other weapons to deal with staff.

peace

[Sui]

kung lek,at the end of the staff does it wither?i ask this b/c most ppl strive for this as i don't,but to keep it still for transference of energy.

also do you exceed the body's target?i don't the point always keep in the perimiter of the body,no waisted movement.
ok i know pin point accuracy is what is needed,but that is what we strive for in the li-ga gunn.
this makes it difficult for other weapons to penetrate.

what do you think to knunshaku against your staff?

[Yum Cha]

HI Sui, you know I love your apples.....

Perhaps another is when to yeild your weapon in order to turn your opponents weapon from an advantage into a liability, how not to let your weapon focus your objective to defeat the opponent.

As KL mentioned, a number of weapons can defeat a staff, but in doing so, open the user to an inside attack as they focus on plying the weapon agains the weapon, not the man. Again, as always, skill determines so much.

My grip is tight with the right hand, the left changes, if the pole is long enough. Actually, I try to keep it tight, but I roll it, like making a fist witht eh staff in the middle sometimes. So, the hand opens and closes a bit. Part of the "drilling" and jabbing technique. Shorter staffs are different.

As my Sifu says. The hand is the mother, the staff is the father and all the other weapons are the children.

[Sui]

hi yummy,incedently what staff do you practice?b/c the fundamentals of that staff is more suited to hung gar and not li-ga.

for instance the li-ga staff only makes one sound.how many sounds does your staff make?[hyong]

now its intresting that the point you make is"the man"not the weapon[true as it seems]but to work inwards would rely on the feet which is more art than the man.

i disagree. weapons cannot defeat other weapons and men cannot defeat men,also art cannot defeat art.so where does that leave us?

how different in your opinion are the shorter staffs?

your si-fu sounds a smart man,however would it be correct to say you must epathise on how to be a well connected family for you to have good staff?

[CLOUD ONE]

HEY SUI, Yum Cha,
Who is the weapon again the man or the staff?

How many noises does your mother make?

''i disagree. weapons cannot defeat other weapons and men cannot defeat men,also art cannot defeat art.so where does that leave us?''

To sqaure one?

Doesn't Li-gar gunn come from hung ken gunn or is it the other way round?

Great Thread guys keep up the good work

;)

[Yum Cha]

Originally posted by Sui
hi yummy,incedently what staff do you practice?b/c the fundamentals of that staff is more suited to hung gar and not li-ga.

>>>>> My first post should tell you which staff patterns I do. Fishing Pole (very long), and the sapling staff that is fat at one end, thin at the other (maybe 7 feet?) and a basic one with a short (shoulder height) staff. The short and medium are similar to the YKM staff to a large extent, perhaps FT will chime in with his 2 bits. <grin>

for instance the li-ga staff only makes one sound.how many sounds does your staff make?[hyong]

>>>>> Sorry, I can't answer that question. As a "fencing" style it jabs and it arcs, and you use the recoil tension. That should tell you something.

now its intresting that the point you make is"the man"not the weapon[true as it seems]but to work inwards would rely on the feet which is more art than the man.

>>>>> So we come back to the question of the Man versus the Art? Or did I miss your point properly? It is the art that beats the weapon/man versus the Man? I put my money on the Man, not the art. But, the art makes the Man.

i disagree. weapons cannot defeat other weapons and men cannot defeat men,also art cannot defeat art.so where does that leave us?

>>>>> That's a question for another time, perhaps over some Bo li?.

how different in your opinion are the shorter staffs?

>>>>> Good question, it made me think. I thought rather different at first, but its all really the same, only shorter staffs change ends quicker, thus you can employ more of that technique, but essentially, all staff techniques can be applied across all lengths, but to much greater or lesser effectiveness. It comes down to the "fencing" style versus the end over end and slashing style, at least for me.

your si-fu sounds a smart man,however would it be correct to say you must epathise on how to be a well connected family for you to have good staff?

>>>>>>> Interesting. But, you lose me too easily. All this talk of staffs, it hard to tell where the seriousness ends and the jokes begin..... <grin>



Now, perhaps, you'll tell me, do you prefer a solid or flexible staff - what physical characteristis make a li gar gunn?


Cloud

I would say the man is the weapon, and a tool is just an extension (be it blade, staff or gun), that adds options. I suggest the Man must learn to make the tool and extension of himself to use it properly.

[CLOUD ONE]

''I suggest the Man must learn to make the tool and extension of himself to use it properly.''

Are there any limitations? How does one extend himself?

When you practice the staff are you in control or the staff?

[Sui]

ahhh i see now the fisherman is to do with the number ten[symbol].i too have dabbled but i find it very slow compared to the li ga gunn,infact no comparison to much slashing and going beyond the bodys target.[no offence]
and indeed only a form/patter hardly and art wouldn't you say?

the next point i think you've mis read,and i appologise for my lack of explaination.

another time with bo-li sorry the tea would change within this conversation to a blend with no name.

long staff short staff?well you catch on well,however you maybe spun in a totally unconcerning direction/position.

you place your si-fu in this conversation not i and i do not speak of/with him only you?sincerity is hard to read if you are ridged?

i prefer the bamboo,and it must call to me before i chop away at the plant.pure nature can not be moulded i find.
sorry but i have already printed on this thread the princeples and its up to you to read?

sui

[Sui]

"To sqaure one?

Doesn't Li-gar gunn come from hung ken gunn or is it the other way round?"

cloud you catch up well.

the origins of li-ga gunn,lol from one branch of hung ken another would be the w/c pole another would be the fishermans form {sip suw ken}

p.s yummy how is it that f.t knows of the grip/non grip[li-ga]and you don't?what i mean is if you had a staff with the way you grip it my staff would bust your fingers and your staff be lost full stop.even if your were longer than mine?
f.t is correct on this matter and also where are you?call yourself a brother?its ok nothing to do with pak mei v ykm[for now]come in if your not lost?

[Buby]

Does the li ga staff follow the same principals as the hands?

I've learned a staff drill that closely follows the YKM/PM hands. No wasted movements what so ever.

Take care,
Buby

[Sui]

you clever B. trust you to come and spoil it all.who invited you anyway?f.t?

BBBUUUBBBYYYY............BUBY!!!!!

hey man i hear your woman calling.lol

[Buby]

****, she always has to mess up everything.LOL Women I tell ya!:D


Take care,
Buby

[fiercest tiger]

Thank you, ur starting to make me feel like Wong Fei Hung lol, i think the fishermans pole of yummy is not sup jee guan, its left handed! It hits the ground 3 times if im not wrong? yummy is this true. It usually has a fishing lure and the practitioner has a bucket of bait and extra hooks and sinkers.lol

I know the vietnamese version do hold the staff like the way you have said as well! In ykm beginning staff form 2 man drill we hold the staff like this and test each other if we can clip the fingers and detact you from the stick. Then we have luk hup guan that teaches you waist and stepping patterns and flicking in a small circular fashion to hit the opponents hands.

Dai jung guan starts like sek sze and the pole goes between your legs etc i think alot of back mei has this.

3rd pole is ng ma gwa choy guan 5 horses return to the stable pole left handed and very direct no twirls as it is a longgggg pole. Usually u dont learn this unless u have been for 10 years or u have opened a club etc.

and i do have a li gar pole form. :D


I have to go back to the tea house to challenge CLC in between drinking tea and hitting the flies
FT :D

Buby dont give out our secrets lol i must kill you!

[Sui]

ng ma gwa choy guan would be the wing chun pole???from hung kuen of course?

so your li ga gunn is not for sharing i sense?or should i become a student to see it?

can i buy it on video off you please?

incedently did hhh pass it down to you?

f.t if you don't want to answer thats cool so many ppl wonder about staffs so much.

[Yum Cha]

Originally posted by Sui
ahhh i see now the fisherman is to do with the number ten[symbol].i too have dabbled but i find it very slow compared to the li ga gunn,infact no comparison to much slashing and going beyond the bodys target.[no offence]
and indeed only a form/patter hardly and art wouldn't you say?

>>>>>>> Yes, just a pattern. No, not just a pattern. Like many things in my experience with Pak Mei, in learning this simple staff pattern, and in searching for the power to make it work, you discover something that washes across all your technique. I mentioned I like the Rattan staff, because, what I have leanred from the longer one makes it an interesting toy, if you can visualise what I mean. I'm not sure you know the pattern I'm referring to though.

The next point i think you've mis read,and i appologise for my lack of explaination.....another time with bo-li sorry the tea would change within this conversation to a blend with no name.

>>>>>>>> Who ever understands everything?

long staff short staff?well you catch on well,however you maybe spun in a totally unconcerning direction/position.

>>>>>>> I take your point.

you place your si-fu in this conversation not i and i do not speak of/with him only you?sincerity is hard to read if you are ridged?

>>>>>>> I take no offense and I know none was intended. Lighten up <grin>.

I prefer the bamboo,and it must call to me before i chop away at the plant.pure nature can not be moulded i find.

>>>>>>> Yes, you are a craftsman of sorts aren't you. I do not doubt you have a sense for the touch. But isn't it a weakness to be attached to a particular item, to need a particular relationship with a tool to make it work? Perhaps even a bit self indulgent? Perhaps Cloud might weigh in here, he wants to know if the gunn has a life of its own?

>>>>>>> Mind you, everybody has their favourite staff, but when does that become a liability as opposed to an asset?

sorry but i have already printed on this thread the princeples and its up to you to read?

>>>>>>> OK, you're right. I was just hoping to get you rambling a bit <grin>.

sui

The grip - it is only the fishing pole that I was taught to hold tightly in the right hand. The left hand has a couple of grips. Why? Perhaps that's a question for you to answer.

I still remember the first Yau Kung Mun Staff Pattern - (is that luk hup guan FT?)

Our other pattern is Tai Chun Kwan, which is almost identical to the YKM version too.

Yes, 3 "taps". No lures, live bait...

[fiercest tiger]

live bait! hahahaha nice but the fish arent on the bite.:)

[Sui]

so yummy,at the end of the staff does it wither?i ask this b/c most ppl strive for this as i don't,but to keep it still for transference of energy.

also do you exceed the body's target?i don't the point always keep in the perimiter of the body,no waisted movement.
ok i know pin point accuracy is what is needed,but that is what we strive for in the li-ga gunn.
this makes it difficult for other weapons to penetrate.

what do you think to knunshaku against your staff?

[Yum Cha]

Does the end wither? I'll assume that means wobbles, shakes, etc. Yes, if you are attacking with a flexible, like using a long rubber rod to strike at a block, then it wraps around the block and strikes the target. Or if you attack the feet, then recoil it up to take an elbow.

But - that is just one technique, given the right tool.

Otherwise, yes, keep it within the body outline and "stab" or fence.

With the longer Pole, however you can feint outside the body outline, then collect the opponent as they move in, by recoiling and breaking the back of their head open.

knunshaku against your staff? I played knunshaku as a youngster (who didn't?) and I say little contest, staff wins, all other things being equal...

Do you keep your elbows bent, or straight? Hands how far apart?

[fiercest tiger]

have you ever seen the staff held like playing a flute?

:D FT

[EAZ]

Originally posted by fiercest tiger
have you ever seen the staff held like playing a flute?

:D FT

This is third movement of first staff form taught in Vietnamese lineage.
1st movement = waterfall
2nd movement= downward strike
3rd movement = monk playing flute
4th movement = the rooster eating golden rice grain
etc...

[Sui]

well yummy we don't stab but poke little.its quite difficult to explain more like strike/bui.

"Do you keep your elbows bent, or straight? Hands how far apart?"

sorry don't understand elboes bent?how can an elboe bend?do you meen the arm?elboe 's in/out?

the hands about 3 hands inbetween.

how do you breath?same without a staff?or the indifferent?

[meltdawn]

"flute staff
have you ever seen the staff held like playing a flute?

FT"

I have. ;)

[Sui]

well md i heard you felt it too one time at band camp:D :D :D

[Yum Cha]

Hi Melty, you're a brave lass indeed throwing your lot in on this thread, rife with double entendres and inuendos. <grin> Nice to see you still alive and kicking.

Sui.
Elbows bent, would also be arms bent. Stab and poke seem pretty close to me. Recoiling is an important element too.

In this particular technique to which I am referring, we keep the leading arm solid, like a pivot, and work the back arm, the one holding the end of the staff, a tiny bit with the elbow, but more with the shoulder and chest.

Because the shoulders are used, and a type of "shock power" you have to breathe correctly to get the power to flow through your arms to the end of the staff. It isn't easy, but then again, what is?

3 hands apart sounds about right. A little more for a longer staff.

[Yum Cha]

Hi Melty, you're a brave lass indeed throwing your lot in on this thread, rife with double entendres and inuendos. <grin> Nice to see you still alive and kicking.

Sui.
Elbows bent, would also be arms bent. Stab and poke seem pretty close to me. Recoiling is an important element too.

In this particular technique to which I am referring, we keep the leading arm solid, like a pivot, and work the back arm, the one holding the end of the staff, a tiny bit with the elbow, but more with the shoulder and chest.

Because the shoulders are used, and a type of "shock power" you have to breathe correctly to get the power to flow through your arms to the end of the staff. It isn't easy, but then again, what is?

3 hands apart sounds about right. A little more for a longer staff.

[fiercest tiger]

man, u fast i was gonna use that line! hahahaha melty, wasnt it a trombone? hehehe

yeah baby!:)

[Sui]

hey f.t as shaggy sez:"it wasn't me"
i think your possesing my arts you dark lord.

yummy,she lets us know she is about;waiting to pounce?wich isn't unpleasant i must add:D

yum,you catch on well.
regards to the shoulder?i find that the opponant indicates where you are eg high or low and at what degrees,ok the other is free to pivot.have you tried pivot at two points like a dragon,or even 3???of course no power when a begginer but then again is power essential at first?

as for breath?what would be the"shock power"in one arm attacks?

sorry i'm not suited to the long staff,as i'm not over 6ft

[meltdawn]

fiercest tiger:
"hahahaha melty, wasnt it a trombone?"

I figured you'd say that. ;)

Sui:
"sorry i'm not suited to the long staff"

I figured you'd say that. ;)

So you heard about band camp? Maybe one day you too will get to go. I took pictures to back up the rumors. :)

[Sui]

yes md i hope i do for i am your geek;)

p.s read any good books lately on how to wield a staff?lol
maybe you could share some details with us?

pp.s long staff seems not to suit you either when it takes 2 ppl just to hold it.lol[one your si-fu] just joking.:D

[Buby]

Don't you guys know that melty prefers the chico stick (Puerto Rican poking/whirling stick) I gave her. It's longer than a short staff, yet shorter than a long staff(by sui's definition of a long staff) and what she loves the most is it's girth. Not to mention the damage I showed her it can cause. Right Melty!:D

Melty see next training session.:D

Take care,
Buby

[meltdawn]

Bubster!

I can't say I've ever dabbled in the Puerto Rican arts! Being a half-breed and all, I seem to be attracted to more eastern methods. But I'm a southern barbarian girl, so one never knows, do one? However, the girth to which you refer does closely resemble the fatter things I am used to playing. They can cause more damage, but only if one knows how to slip AND grip. ;)

Sui fuw...

Books, no, do pamphlets count? Then yes, but only those by my sigungs - Lam Chon Gong and Lam Lop Gei, HK Dragon Sign-produced. OK, on a *lighter* note, I like your ideas on pivot, I can't believe I overlooked them. To have two pivot points, now there's for what a girl strives. But THREE? Wow, now you've really got my heart racing. Please........................ do go on. :)

[Sui]

sshhhhh md ;) its our secret:) "3"the magic number.