effective kungfu techniques

[Kungfu boy]

I got a question for you guys. Recently, I have been talking to a friend of mine who practice kung fu here in Texas. He and I have had some discussion on certian techniques. While he has been only training at his school for about 3 weeks all they have shown him are techniques based on if someone grabs his wrist. This got me thinkingof my early training in a local korean MA school and they show mostly the same thing for the 1st two belt levels. (which is why I left)

My question is, where is the practicality in this? In most cases a guy is not gonna grab your wrist, he's going to punch/kick/tackle you. Is this the same in your schools? Have you approached your sifu about these techs and what did he say? My friend doesn't want to say anything to his Sifu for alot of reasons. He still believes there is great growth for him in the school, he loves doing it, but he feels that if he asks then it might seem disrespectful, not the impression he wishes to make.

Please do not think I am attacking the practicality of kung fu as a whole, I love it and respect it. I just have doubt on these sets of techniques, as they seem more "rape preventive" then combat effective.

[dezhen2001]

Well, being as you explained with text we can't really see what the grab etc. looks like.

It reminds me of my old aikido training a lot. You first learn the basic aikido techniques from wrist grabs (inside and outside wrist). Many people don't think there is any practicality in those as someone would punch or tackle you etc. but apart form anything else they are a training tool. It teaches you about the correct distance, how to move off centre (if someone was punching i know i'd be doing that! ;)), how to redirect the force etc. and apply a basic technique.

Actually when i've been in scuffles people have tried to grab my arm, maybe not exactly like in class (as they're usually wanting to punch or headbutt ya or whatever), but the principle is the same :) Basically get off centre (where the target it) and don't be there.

Shorinji Kempo also has a few basic techniques like this. It also teaches you how you can affect someones whole body by using just a small part, both very useful things to know (and hard to do at first) :)

In both systems, after you learn these basic things and understand the principle you go on to much more fun stuff! But until then, you have to understand what it is you're actually trying to do and what you can learn from these things... if your friend is not sure, then why not ask his teacher? I'm sure he can explain why you learn this far better than any of us! :)

good luck,
david

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

my buddy did a bit of aikido training where he had to practice techniques just as you described. i have felt sorry for more than one person i have watched him wrestle or spar with as he was eventually able to see the same lock anywhere and throw it in unexpectedly. in high shcool he actually managed to humiliate a couple bullies with those locks. he's a good striker too, but these kids just threw the oportunity at him. tell your friend that if the advanced students look like good fighters he has nothing to worry about and just do what the teacher says. some schools start you out slow for a reason. i figure you just got to look at the advanced students and you should know wether the class is worthwhile or not. if they suck then the school is useless even if the teacher looks decent.

[dezhen2001]

said it in less words than i did 2 :p
Looking at the seniors is generally a good indication i reckon...

Yeah i love those aikido techniques, they've saved my ass every time i been in a scuffle since i started training. don't worry and just keep training :)

david

[Kungfu boy]

Seem to more about aikido then I do, I was always told it was a pretty good style but took along time to get it to work for you.(like 4-5 yrs.) My experience is that if I'm grabbed, its always been from behind in either the bear hug or full nelson positions, mind you this was before I started training thai/jkd. Never been grabbed by my wrist, well a couple times by my mon when I was little but in a fight....?

I guess if it works for you, do it. I'll tell him to look at the senior students and see what he thinks. Like I said, he likes doing it, he just is kind of weary of the techniques like that. I persoanally made it 6 months in a school, learning just that kind of technique and got sick of it. Never got me anywhere in a fight, thinking back though, the higher up belts there weren't all that impressive. So maybe I missed some signs back then.

I'll pass the info onto my friend.

[dezhen2001]

well, like i said, first u can learn like that to get used to the idea of someone doing something to ya (if u've never been in a fight contact is quite scary). Also to learn how the body works and basic principles. In aikido once you learn basic principles (as above) you move on to bearhugs, grabs form behind, the front... strikes etc. But if u don't understand the basic principles, those won't work...

I've used similar techniques from having my hands palm up in a non-threatening manner... someone grabbed my arm to move it out the way to lamp me one etc. I moved offline (avoid the punch and take their balance) and put him in a variation of nikkyo (2nd basic technique, which dropped him to the ground), so it does work :)

good luck :)

david

[dezhen2001]

actually i don't know why so many people think aikido is ineffective... if you have a good teacher then it is a very useful skill. I've used what i've learned many times, even against other trained MA people and it works :)

david

[Helicopter]

Personally I feel two things about grabbing techniques.

Is there a standard of what will and won't happen 'on the street'? (I personally wouldn't want play the percentages on this one.)

And my other point is that many M arts/artists train in a variety of grabbing and controlling techniques. (How many 'overly excitable' bouncers (sorry doormen) have you seen?)


jpcm

[dezhen2001]

most of the grabbing techniques i have learned have been more principle based rather than set. That's what lets you adapt to what happens. Again, Aikido and Shorinji Kempo are things i have a basic knoweledge of that deal with grabbing. Both teach in this way. There is no set attack or defence, but principles can cover all of the possibilities (dealing with taking the persons balance/centre and redirecting force, using anatomical movements/positions to help you escape or whatever...).

Training is of ocurse a different story, as you need to learn the principles correctly first.

For example: how many different ways can you strike someone? Straight, curved, round... that's about it. Anyting else (fist, elbow, fingers, palm...) are all just variations on the above. It's the same with grabbing as far as i know. There are certain things that will be similar (core principles), so if you trian to understandthose you can adapt to what happens. i'm sure one of the grapplers etc. would be able to explain better than little old me :)

just my thoughts,
david

[Braden]

Some teachers expect you to think for yourself.

Wrist-grab attacks/defenses are often used for beginners because they provide an ideal introduction to universal combatitive concepts. Because of the distance and levers involved, it's often easiest to see principles like unbalancing, cutting the line, distance, etc with this kind of an encounter; and it is also the easiest way to get people uncomfortable with 'being martial' to unlearn their inhibitions.

If this is the case, and you're learning good material, you're not just learning wrist-grab defenses, and you're not just honing general principles. If it works when he's grabbed your wrist, it should work when you grab his. As you develop a body sense, you should learn to apply it on other grabs, and from other grabs as well. The same techniques should also flow from having jammed someone's strike - are you learning to do that? (I suspect you were).

Is this what's going on with you and your friend? We certainly can't tell you. Take what you've learned and play with it. Exercise it out at home. Get a training buddy and work it out. Shouldn't you be doing this anyway?

[dezhen2001]

good post braden! wish i could make so much sense without having to type so much :)

david

[Braden]

Me too. :)

[Mr Punch]

It's all been said really, except maybe this could be added...

If you yourself apply pak sau (for example) with a good sticking energy, your fingers may naturally go around the attacking arm. You then have the grab! All of the techniques and practice methods so far explained can be done from an arm grab to.

So at close range, if you want to prevent someone dumping you in a throw/grapple you can use the attacker's return movement to naturally apply a lock or gain some distance. Or you can use it to initiate a throw/grappling move.

This kind of application is pretty difficult to find at speed under pressure, cos your opponent will often just wrench away, but if you have trained it as a reflex you can relax into this wrench and turn it to your advantage. At close range I find it happens by accident more often than not!

Just my experience... As Braden said: train it.:)

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i agree with you guys, but i think it was his friend's problem and not his. it sounded like he doesn't even go to the same school and hasn't had much experience with wrist locks. wether or not he's interested in helping out his buddy by training with him is another story though.

[shaolinboxer]

Well said fellas. The only thing I would add is that practicing against wrist grabs does become practical for weapon retention, and for escaping someone trying to cuff you or bind your wrists.

Ya never know ;).

[African Tiger]

I agree with Braden.

Wrist hold techniques teach you how your opponent will react when his energy is used against him.

Some of the first techniques I learned from Sifu Totten were right out of Ed Parker's bag of tricks.

Many of those wrist grab escapes are coupled with palm strikes and kicks, which would mimic an opponent's reaction to having his strike redirected (or in the case of grappling arts a wristlock or armbar) and finished off with a variety of strikes or kicks.

It's all basic, and after two years, I stilll work on the basics. AND so should we all ;)

[greendragon]

the wrist techniques may have more value than you think. don't overlook the hand/wrist/arm as a target often given to us freely by the opponent as a guard/block/punch.

[Kungfu boy]

GDA, Yes I go to a different school then my friend. We work together but we live like 45-50 minutes away from each other, so training with him is an interest but not practical to do often. Houston traffic sux pretty bad in the summer.

I have not had alot of experience with the wrist locks, thats true. But I do dilligently train jeet kune do for trapping purposes. And I find that it suits me better, isn't that what its about? Finding what works for you? Some like hard style karate, I prefer the smooth/flowing movements of jkd or the dominating thai kick I have.

David, I never said aikido was ineffective, I just said it takes alot of practice. Aikido to me is like BJJ, they are both highly technical and takes awhile to practice and make it workable. For example, you learn the armbar in bjj(which can be pulled off from various positions) does that mean if you learn all the ways you can do it, you'll pull it off? Nope.... you need a good amount of time into training it.

Within 6 months you can become pretty good at Thai or any striking art and thats what I rely on in a fight, not my jkd. Why? Because I have only a few months experience in it and its risky....hmmm should I try this jkd move and possibily get punched in the face or should I thai round kick him, when he winces send a hook to his head, then put him into plumb and knee the crap out of him? Oh and jump up and down on his chest at the end. Now here's the thing, am I saying you shouldn't use the wrist locks(jkd, trapping etc.) in a fight? No, I'm just saying it takes longer the use them wisely. And if you have the time to train them, go ahead.

And yes I have been in a fight, and I paid severely for my wasted time in that korean MA. He didn't grab my arm, he just boxed me and knocked me down and got on top and started to go to town. I have yet to be in a fight since I started thai, and I am not looking for any, I just know I'll win if it happens. Not because thai is that good, because I'm good at what I do.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

kfboy. .. i wasn't criticizing you dude . .. just correcting others cause their posts seemed to offer advice that wasn't directly related to your first post. some even seemed to be slightly condensending when it wasn't your problem to begin with.

jeesh .. try to take up for a guy and they get all defencive on ya.

[David Jamieson]

at the point of contact, usually the first part offered up to you is the wrist of your opponent which you can in turn grab and pull as you strike.

if someone pulls this tech on you, knowing the chin na tech to release will be invaluable.

not everyone charges in like a maniac, some fighter will wait for you to attack.

If you didn't start the altercation, do not be the first one to move in. It puts you at a disadvantage in many ways when dealing with any experienced martial artist.

patience is a virtue, even in fighting :D

peace

[GLW]

Da Ti shuai Na... Striking, Kicking, Throwing, Grasping...


The 4 basic types of techniques.

I know of one instructor in Houston who (may still but not sure) taught separate Chin Na classes from his regualr Kung Fu and Taiji classes.

Putting such things in a separate class and time is OK. Problem was that he got some folks who just came in for Chin Na. That is like having the keys to a nice sports car and no gas. They had no context or basics that would help them understand or use what they were learning.

Chin Na are probably the most difficult types of techniques to use well. Many of them require PERFECT timing and placement. For a beginner, he very well may learn a few but wil not be able to use them for a good while. He would be better off focusing on stances, movement, basic punch and kick, distance in two person drills, -....basics in general.

Many begin people with Chin Na on wrist technique. They can be taught easily, quickly, shown without destroying a beginner, controlled in a beginners class so they don't kill each other, etc... They are basic idea techiques...they lead to things like understanding that you put the body in an unnatural position, apply force, you get pain or breakage....

[gazza99]

They are easy to learn, and a good place to start learning about Chin-Na. But when I teach these techniques I tell the students that in a real fighting situation it will most likely not start from a nice clean wrist grab. But perhaps after punches are thrown the lock may present itself once contact is made, the locks should come effortlessly, of course a good rule of thumb is strike, grapple, strike. (grapple =chin na)

I find shirt grabs have a higher prob. of happening on the street. That is just from hearing about fights, also I have had it happen to me, and one of my friends.

Gary

[chingei]

Originally posted by Kungfu boy
I have yet to be in a fight since I started thai, and I am not looking for any, I just know I'll win if it happens. .

If you haven't, you don't really know do you?

[Kungfu boy]

I wasn't being defensive towards you. I was agreeing with you about my friends problem, sorry if it seemed otherwise. I appreiciate the help dude. My apolagies....

The rest of the post was just to everyone mainly, just saying what works for me and my feelings on more complex techniques and the time needed to train them correctly.

When I see my friend Sunday, I'll refer him to this thread.

Chingei, I am alot more confident since starting thai, I have more faith in my training as it is more combat oriented. I spar often(something I was only allowed once to do in the korean school) and find what I do very pratical for me. I know it'll work because I can make it work.

Later Guys

[chingei]

Originally posted by Kungfu boy

Chingei, I am alot more confident since starting thai, I have more faith in my training as it is more combat oriented. I spar often(something I was only allowed once to do in the korean school) and find what I do very pratical for me. I know it'll work because I can make it work.

Later Guys

but you have no way of knowing what type of person you might end up fighting, or what his abilities might be. or how large, strong, fast, etc he might be.

also, if you have yet to test yourself outside of sparring, you don't know how you might react to certain variables, vis-a-vis your new skills, right?

[Kungfu boy]

I concede a very valid point. I can only fight the way I was trained. I have sparred people of all sizes, with a wide range of styles.(be it wrestling, thai,karate etc.) True that I will not know who will start a fight with me, all I can do is train to better my odds, by learning to beat various kinds of people which I have. Yes, outside sparring its a whole new ball game, but fear is the major enemy on the street. You can't freeze or not react, you gotta KEEP flowing, rolling with the punches. I just have more confidence in my skill now.

If he's a boxer, I take him to the ground. If he's grappler, I try to keep him on his feet. If he's good at both, I'll die. But on the other side, most MAist aren't thugs who start fights. The chance of me fighting someone trained is low but still a possibility.

Just curious, what style do you study?

[chingei]

Originally posted by Kungfu boy

Just curious, what style do you study?

D) all of the above

[SevenStar]

Lay off him guys....he's just trying to help a friend concerning an issue that does have validity - especially considering that there are teachers like the one that GLW metioned who teach chin na in a separate class than the kung fu. I also know instructors who do this. People will come to learn strictly the chin na and they have no real concept of any strikes, kicks or what to expect in a fight because the only thing they are learning is locks - chin na is already hard enough for most beginners to learn in class - it would be even harder in the street against a resisting opponent.

[Braden]

Could someone explain to me by what standards a bil sao http://209.197.240.134/movies/tom/4-bil_sao/ is complex, slow, and/or flowery whereas a thai round kick http://www.kosportgym.com/Videos/MuayThaiRT56k.rm is not?

I've tried to figure it out for myself, as it's a statement which is frequently made as a prima facie fact. In terms of body motion, the kick is alot larger. In terms of distance constrains, the kick is more constrained. In terms of dedication, the kick is worse off. In terms of maintaining your guard, the kick is worse off. In terms of maintaining your mobility, the kick is worse off. In terms of telegraphing, the kick is worse off. In terms of pulling off the technique surprised/off balanced/generally messed up, the kick is worse off.

I'm most certainly not making any statements of relative usefullness, and I'm sure dedicated training time offsets these concerns (for both cases), I'm simply trying to understand the basis behind a categorization others have brought up regarding the kick being more basic/easy/simple/less flowery/whatever.

[SevenStar]

Where have you heard that statement made? you are comparing a handstrike to a kick....

as far as the flowery statement in general, it used (in the contexts that I've heard it) in comparison with a similar kick from other MA, for example, the traditional roundhouse. it gets chambered, it snaps out and back, etc. the thai kick, while telegraphic is quite destructive and even if blocked can damage and/or destroy balance.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i didn't get it either.

and both dudes didn't look all that much better than beginers in either style.

[Braden]

"Where have you heard that statement made?"

eg. "my feelings on more complex techniques ." 07-06-2002 02:51 AM this thread.

"you are comparing a handstrike to a kick...."

No, I'm not. Other people are and I'm questioning it.

"as far as the flowery statement in general, it used...in comparison with a similar kick from other MA, for example, the traditional roundhouse."

:confused: Isn't flowery used most often to describe kungfu? The 'traditional roundhouse kick' isn't exactly a kungfu staple.

[Royal Dragon]

Even if your not good at it, if you try to apply it relentlesly pretty soon your opponet is so busy trying to prevent you from locking him he leaves his head wide open for a good wholloping!! :D

[No_Know]

GLW, it was my comprehension that in general, the Japanese schools might regard strikes with the hand or the foot as strikes. Punching And Kicking are Strikes. And throws happen after grabs. Some don't need grabs, but they might be said to require redirecting of the opponent or the opponent's attack~ So (needle-and-thread) of the basic types of techniques, There might be as few as striking and controling.

"My question is, where is the practicality in this? In most cases a guy is not gonna grab your wrist, he's going to punch/kick/tackle you."

Punch: inside break-hold of grab the wrist or outside break-hold of grab the wrist can be used to deflect a punch or grab it at the fist, wrist, or forearm or elbow. All of which are better than can getting hit. And could be used to instruct the attacker to be more polite.~

Kick: the anckle is a joint much as a wrist. Bending of the hand back enough can get uncomfortable for the aggressor. A transferable understanding might be to move out of the kick's range and swiping at the foot. The kick with a forward momentum can help you jam the aggressor's ankle. (roundhouse kick, wheel kick, some front rising kicks). There's also the perception to intercept the kick. In some cases for grabbing or twisting. But helpful to block or deflect.

Tackle: the nearly horizontal neck can be treated as a wrist and twisted to create discomfort (even enough discomfort to cause rethink on attacking again). if the arms are out then so might be the hands and therefore the wrists. Taking the hand or wrist of someone who would tackle you could break the tackle. Also, the same break-hold of grab the wrist, with stepping could be used to deflect the tackle, theoretically. Perhaps some-such.

[LEGEND]

DOOD...why don't u just teach him or invite him to your JKD/BJJ school and see if he LIKEs it there?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Braden
"Where have you heard that statement made?"


:confused: Isn't flowery used most often to describe kungfu? The 'traditional roundhouse kick' isn't exactly a kungfu staple.

I guess that depends on who you talk to, and what style of kung fu. I've heard the term flowery for traditional styles in general, not just kung fu. I typically hear it in reference to forms though, not particular techniques. As far as the roundhouse, it's really not a staple of any style, other than tkd or mt, but kung fu styles do use it.

[Braden]

"I've heard the term flowery for traditional styles in general, not just kung fu."

Ok. But I'm still trying to figure out the rationale / meaning behind making the statement.

To tell you the truth, my cynical suspicion is that the people making these statements have exactly zero experience with the subject they're talking about, and there's no meaning / rationale behind the statement whatsoever; at least none based in reality. But it's happened so much that no one bothers questioning it.

I'm hoping to see some evidence to the contrary though.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Braden

To tell you the truth, my cynical suspicion is that the people making these statements have exactly zero experience with the subject they're talking about, and there's no meaning / rationale behind the statement whatsoever; at least none based in reality. But it's happened so much that no one bothers questioning it.

I'm hoping to see some evidence to the contrary though. [/B]

Agreed. When people see the broad motions and seemingly useless gestures, they think it's meaningless. the unitiated judge forms by what they see, and not by what the techniques actually are.

[Braden]

So you're saying the 'flowery' label isn't making any statements about techniques, but rather out of a training method that seems divorced from techniques? So it's more of an aliveness issue than anything to do with the qualities of the movement?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Braden
So you're saying the 'flowery' label isn't making any statements about techniques, but rather out of a training method that seems divorced from techniques? So it's more of an aliveness issue than anything to do with the qualities of the movement?

yes and no, but like I said, that's from what I've experienced. friends that have seen my forms - karate, longfist and shuai chiao - have said things to the effect of "Okay, it looks cool, but how would that work in a fight?" all they were looking at was the movement itself. When I show them the application of the technique, they see it in a different light.

the reason I say no is because of the example I gave previously. the traditional snapping roundhouse visually doesn't look anywhere near as powerful as an mt roundhouse. If you're not into MA, you're not really looking at balance, telegraphing, etc. you just see the kick and know that it looks like it hurts. the "flowery" technique is the one that looks less powerful.

[Braden]

Ok, that makes sense to me.

Except, in the case of this thread, this isn't how the term 'complexity' was used.

For the second point, powerful-looking doesn't equate to powerful, so I can continue thinking the term has no use. ;)

[SevenStar]

yeah, yeah, point taken :p BUT, you think the term has no use because you know about MA. The people I was referring to do not.

[Kungfu boy]

I am not qualified to teach, and it is quite a drive for him. He has shown an interest in learning the jkd, but wants to pursue this 1st.(its closer to him as my school is almost an hour drive from him) I am looking into jkd schools in his area, see if anybody is around there. He just didn't see the use in the techniques they were showing him. So he became kind of worried, asking himself "Will I be able to use this?"

I will see him tommorow and will direct him to this forum so he can make his own decision.

Later Guys

[Crimson Phoenix]

May I jump in?? Hehehehe
Well, here is how I see the term flowery...usually people use it to refer either to something that looks good but is useless in a fight, or something that looks flashy. That said, there are big concepts to remember: first, it is not because it looks flashy that it is useless...for example, in Yi and Er Lu Mai Fu, two well known longfist sequences, you have a move that really looks flashy and a priori just for show...but actually, it isn't, since it can translate in either a plain strike, or even less obvious a throw, or even better the move of someone taking throwing daggers and launching them...as 7 Stars said, people who have no idea will first say it is flowery, but if you show them the throw, or even better the daggers thingie, they'll admit it has its use. It is the same for a move which seems just for show when in fact it translates as a throw or even better a move that tells you "grab something on the ground and throw it at the opponent". So actually, what I am trying to say is this: when people have no idea, anything can be flowery. Often I hear that gong fu has nonsense moves, and it ****es me off, because the form is judged, but not the principle. Karate looks more violent, sometimes powerful, and has less chances of being dubbed flowery by neophytes...but once again it's just a judgement of guys who don't know what they are talking about.
then tere's the second kind of "flowery": the kind of terms used by some masters to refer to practices they disdain. In other words, flowery used by guys who know what they talk about. It relates to these styles or practices that looks good, but lack any martial value...flower fists and brocade legs: looking darn good, but useless in a fight...Usually forms in gong fu have obvious applications, but also many hidden ones in the same move...the external form can be flowery while the hidden applications downright efficient (which, if we're not knowledgeable, we won't realize). But then again there are things that are flowery per se, and only high level fighters can know for sure...
When you haven't reached a high level, it's rather hard to see what's flowery for real and what looks flashy but can prove devastating...like the frog in its well who laughs when someone discribes the ocean, we can be eluded by the apparent beauty or flashiness of a move that can hide a terrible application, which our mediocre level hides from us.
So for me there are basically two kinds of flowery moves: the ones that are flowery because we don't know better, and the ones that are flowery per se, definitely useless...the problem is, how to be sure? there is always a higher level, so when can we be sure that our judgement on something has chances to be adequate? Tough questions...
But anyway, there are things that are definitely obviously flowery and useless without any doubt...thanks God we can at least be sure about them hehehehehheheheh

[No_Know]

Theoretically, closer to originally, "flowery" was not used in comparison-ish to a similar kick to Muay Thai. It was Not a description or whatever, of traditional styles. It is part of a typical phrase which referred to Chinese Kung-Fu (Only, Chinese Kung-Fu). It was perhaps in a story, used as a challenge. Perhaps because it was a popular phrase, to say it looks pretty, but is no better than dancing, for fighting. And dancing is not considered Any good for real fighting. Basically, it means Kung-Fu looks pretty, but is no good (for fighting).

"Flowery Fists. Embroidery Kicks"

[BrentCarey]

I agree with much of what has been said on this subject. Wrist escapes are a good place to start. They help students start getting used to having contact with an attacker, teach some basic principles about geometry and leverage, are relatively easy to grasp (sorry about the pun), and can be taught and used the same day.

I incorporate some of these types of techniques in the training for my students from the first day. I also use a simple wrist grab to illustrate the "do something, do it quickly, and do it with resolve" concept of self-defense.

A basic principle of my self-defense instruction is that the most common failure in self-defense situations is the failure to act at all, and that it is better to do something than nothing (kind of like CPR). I like to have a student grab my wrist to demonstrate this principle. With a loud shout and a sudden stomp on the floor, the student let's go of my wrist and winces.

Another comment:

Someone mentioned a distinction between combat effectiveness and rape prevention. I'm sure I don't understand the distinction.


Peace,

Brent Carey

[Braden]

Good post, Brent.

Regarding the other topic of the thread, I'm still waiting for the guy who made the comment I asked about to explain it.