Shun Fa in PM

[mantis108]

As Pong Lai pointed out in the other thread the importance of Shun Fa in PM, I think we can make a great discussion with it. Great post Pong Lai.

First off, I am only speaking out of my own experience and am not representive of the TJPM style.

Shun Fa (body method) is one of the 5 faculties of actions. Ultimately, it is about manoeuvering. Whether you are using Shun Fa standing or on the ground, the most important thing is to keep moving and keep working to unbalance, corner and control (bind or trap) your opponent to knock out or submission. Shun Fa is a mean (not the end) and a very important one indeed.

The difference between standing up and on the ground Shun Fa is the lack of support of the footwork which is another faculty of action. Having said that we can still make a "stance" (ie the BJJ guard) ; therefore, we do not rule out the use of stancework while on the ground. The point is principles are there (and pretty much the same) while the "form/shape" adapts. BTW, the is sort of a ground footwork but is rather complicated to explain so I will leave it for now.

In CCK TCPM, we learn falling, rolling, siccors kicks, tornado kicks, flip ups, etc... There are quite a few different drills or rather short road of these. At first glance, these are no more than aecrabtic feast. In truth, these are essential Shun Fa for ground fighting. Futhermore, these eventually come together and become the Ground Mantis form! These things are taught in the early stage of training. But the emphasis is not on the GF aspect. You are and should be ready for handle GF as soon as the main points are explained.

Take tornado kick for example, it is essentially the bridging skill that is commonly found in Judo and its derivetive BJJ. In TCMA, we just do it in a more explosive manner and most of the time for showy purposes. The thinking behind it is to break away or get up rapidly from a disadvantage ground (don't want to be there). The other MA, on the other hand, prefers to capitalize the fall to turn the table around and even triumph out of it. If you tone it down, you will see there is no hugh difference between TCMA and its counter parts technique wise. Moreover there are substantial benefits with the tornado kick as a training tool. So it a matter of choice in which direction your training should go. That no doubt is in the hands of your Sifu.

There is a saying and a known fact in CMA that your Sifu can not and will not be able to teach you everything that he knows and everything that you are going to know. Ultimately, you will have to exercise the largest piece of muscle between your ears. Listen, observe and squeeze that piece of graish stuff.

Mantis108

[Art D]

M 108
Intresting . The conection you make with footwork and the gard. In the gard all pricipals or most any way of mantis can still be aplyed and I have found that in doing so it is very efective , but my ? is where in mantis do you learn the gard?I just have not come across it When introduced to it through BJJ I was easly able to adapt PM principals to it but it took the BJJ experance to bring me there>

[yu shan]

Thank you for your closing statement M108, I exercised "the middle muscle" and moved on in my training.

Sifu Art, to me you have incredible "Shun Fa" to what and who do you give this gift, you are a Champion! As for application to wrestling, in my experience, "Shun Fa" applies here, move and groove, slip and slide... would be fun to put on the head gear again. Just floppin around on the ground... :)

[Art D]

YS
Thank you for your compliments . And i agree that shun fa applys to all areas fo fighting. and to the point of where did i get shun fa , I got most of it from mantis boxing. but this is not my ? nor is it my dispute.
look guys I think mantis is the balls. there is no intent in my ? to put PM down. I want to make the point that wrestling is not just flopping around on the ground, I'm talking about ground fighting, not sport or submission. What I'm hearing corect me if I'm wrong is that PM has it or dose not need it if the former, who is trainning it ? how are you approching it? and would you share your insight w/ me .

[Dachengdao]

This is a great thread that M108 has started as a follow up to the popular Mantis Fighting thread which has well over a thousand viewings already. Your comments were intelligent and thought-provoking. I can't agree with you more that it is imperative to keep moving as this will unbalance your oponent. Shin fa gives you the proper yin-yang balance regardless of body positioning. Tornado kicks are indeed flashy, but I do not laborously train my students in any one aspect of the form. Real power does not come from the muscles, but from the tan dien. I would rather my students spend 15-30 minutes a day practicing Dachengquan's Standing Pole Exercises than hours and hours of kicking. Over developed muscles slow down the rest of the body. The key to effective Mantis fighting is speed. Your oponent should not be able to have the time to anticipate your next move. Shin fa gives you the flexability for rapid change. Speed may be the Mantis fighter's best weapon, but I must stress again that real power comes from within. If you want lightening-fast, explosive attacks, you must compliment your mantis training with internal style Kung Fu.

[mantis108]

I am glad that you enjoy this topic. The comments are well noted. Thank you very much, my friends. :D

Art D,

<<<Intresting . The conection you make with footwork and the gard. In the gard all pricipals or most any way of mantis can still be aplyed and I have found that in doing so it is very efective , but my ? is where in mantis do you learn the gard?I just have not come across it When introduced to it through BJJ I was easly able to adapt PM principals to it but it took the BJJ experance to bring me there>>>

Well, true the BJJ Guard is not taught in Mantis. It is uniquely developed by BJJ. However, this doesn't mean that we as Mantis stylist couldn't take note of what is useful (remember Josi Wong Long?) Having said that fighting from the guard as in BJJ or even ground grappling oriented styles for that matter is in essence working from a deficit to a dominating position (from a striking style POV). In that sense, it is not unlike the Mantis (the insect) that wrestle with a much larger ciccada. IMHO, in any form of combative art there are 3 constance - balance, mobility and breathing. Stancework or rather having a "stance" means having balance from which all offensive and defensive tactics launch. The guard is in essence a "lying on your back stance". It is like the horse stance which in some people's eyes rather useless. But if you are "in the know" you know it works or they both work well. In Mantis (straightly from personal experience with CCK TCPM) , we would learn fighting from deficit to dominance in our Sau Fa (Taizu Duan Da) as counters. As you are thrown or taken down to the ground, you will initate your counter attack from that deficit. This I would say is when we will learn that "guard position/stance" which is not known as the guard. BTW, traditionally and I stress traditionally this is not encouraged in Mantis due to many reasons. However, this doesn't mean that Mantis won't adapt because it is not commonly known to the public that we have ground figth capacity. Also counters are usually consider more advanced material, so I suppose GF and its "stances" are taught at a later stage in Mantis.

Yu Shan,

You are most welcome. :)

DaChengdao,

Thank you for the compliment and the kind words. I agreed that internalizing is important. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience as well. :)

Regards
Mantis108

[Art D]

M 108
Thank you for such a well spoken point of view. I agree that as MA ist we need to keep to the spirit of martial development as it is this spirit that developted PM. and its shoots. there are things that other styles have (BJJ) the guard) that can be used to tweek a PM fighter to stregthen his options in this area. you speek of training ground fighting at higher levels of mantis . Do you or your teachers teach this and if so can you share your methods w/ us?

As for the avoidance of being taken to the ground I've already stated that it is best to avoid and that mantis has excellent methods to do so.

Dachengdoa

I am also a big proponent of internal traing ,post training , and chen silk reeling , gong li or i think you refered to it as fa li are big parts of our train in my school, I glad to see a more internal view out there. thanks for your insights.

[Art D]

m 108

? I just reread your response and you said that the guard is not the corect term for the position that I'm refering to, would you be so kind as to let me know the corect term so that I can be corected . The guard is the trem that i've been told and all that I have ever known for that position . Again My only exposure to it has been throught BJJ.

[NorthernMantis]

Excellent thread. I've been thinking of posting something similar to this. Very insightlful.

[mantis108]

Hi Art D,

First off, I am all for sharing. :)

In CCK TCPM, we quite often use what I would call Short Strike Protocol (SSP) otherwise knows as Sau Fa/Duan Da. Styles such as Aikido, Jit Jitsu, Judo, BJJ, even JKD are essential using the SSP which don't rely on forms, which I would call Long Fist Protocol (LFP). The difference between the 2 is that LFP is like a full text book that you can gain a grand overall view (of the style); whereas, the SSP is like a collection of math problems which you have to solve one by one (easy to lose sight of the style). Neither one is superior than the other. They are just different approaches. GM Chiu taught 64 basic Sau Fa but in reality there are more than 64 as he always mentioned. It is with this Sau Fa platform that we develope our combat skills.

Here's the drill which I have posted before and is taken from one of the CCK TCPM Sau Fa:

First and foremost, there are 2 ways to start the drill:

1) Do a takedown move. It could be any one from the Mantis arsenal. For simplification, we pick the Deng Ta here.

Actually this is a great time to learn the proper counter to Deng Ta takedown or any other takedown move for that matter. You could give the students 3-5 minutes round each just on this part alone.

2) Start from ground position. This is the immediate position after the takedown.

Starting from the ground position is working from deficit to dominance. If you observe all grappling oriented styles training methodology they all start their drills that way.

Let's start with #1

B: Right straight pun (as in a jab)

A: Performs a Deng Ta takedown

B: Landed on the ground with the left side on the floor/mat

A: sticking to B and keeping B's right upper limb all the while. A should assume kneeling stance/Yu Huan Bu and stay next to B. This is the starting position for ground control.

things to bear in mind: A should make sure B landed on the left side and B's back is exposed towards A. This give a superior position for A to gain side control. The Yu Huan Bu (Jade Ring Step) is excellent in pinning B on the ground. All A has to do is to make sure the rare knee is pinning B around the floating rib. This helps to restrict B's breathing and wears him down. B's right wrist is under control by A's left hand and B's right elbow is straighten and locked (kind of an armbar) by the front thigh of A's Yu Huan Bu. A's left leg (front leg) is placed close to B's neck and shoulder.

Drill 1 - stage one:

from the start position, A uses thumb on pressure point which I showed Tainan Mantis before. B response by tap out if the pressure point is pressed correctly by A. What we look for here is speed and accuracy of A's action.

Drill 1 - stage two:

from the start position, A do the same thing. B however will try to roll the whole body over and towards A (parry A's attack with the left hand). If B is successful in getting out of the Yu Huan Bu side control, he should progress immediately to put A into his closed guard. The drill will be ended if A can't not maintain or re-pin B under the Yu Huan Bu side control position. If B is sucessful in putting A in the closed guard, then A will be the one to be taken down and B gets to do the pinning. A gets a second chance if B fails to put him in the closed guard.

There is a 30 seconds time limit.

OF course you can continue on with a 3-5 minute round with B gets to slap on the closed guard. When rolling don't forget your Mantis stuff like eblows, knees, Chin Na, etc...

Drill 2 is similar to Drill 1 except this time is (front) knee to the jaw as control instead of the thumb to pressure point.

Things to pay attention to is the limb control and the rare knee (the pinning knee) have to maintain good control at all times. observing the sticking, paste, etc...(you know the 4 of the 12 characters pinciples.) make sure to leave no space between you and your opponent.

from Drill 2 you can proceed to do other finishing moves like the straight arm bar.

Drill 2 actually has a lot changes and variations depending on the opponent's reponses.

There is unfortunately no name in Mantis terminology for the BJJ Guard since it is not recognize as a proper stance traditionally. Also the Guard is a unique development of BJJ. In this case, we will have to adopt the terminology and the techniques (if that is the direction that you are going with your mantis). So you are not wrong by calling it the guard. Having said that GM Chiu didn't encourage any of us stay on the ground for too long. Once you are down you should get up with the tornado kick or other moves (ie rolling and/or ground kicking) right away. As for myself, I have friends and students who do ground grappling so I have adopted some ground work into my stuff. However, I try to follow as closely as possible to what is available in the system (ie the Ground Mantis form and stuff from the Sau Fa that GM Chiu taught).

Northern Mantis,

Thanks, I would love to hear your input as well. :)

Mantis108

[Art D]

wow.

They sound like great drills, i'll try them. thanks you for taking your time to put out this info.
I like you beleive that the traditional point of view of getting of the ground as soon as you can is the wise thing to do.

I cover ground work w/ more of a striking and escape to your feet approuch than a wrestle and submit point of view. Any chin na on the ground is done as a distruction in an efort to escape ,more than a tap out .Althoug we will train doing the tap out to protect against being hurt.
thanks again And look to hear more from you.

[PaulLin]

Great topic. Shen Fa + Shou Fa + Bu Fa + Yain Li. That is what 8 step has said: Shou Yain Shen Fa Bu.

The Guard postion, to my knowledge, existed in 8 step skill. It is a form of Jin Jiao Jain (golden feets scissor). Jin Jaio Jain is used mainly as a kick when distant with oponent, close attach it will be lower back separate clinch. It is design to squeaze and snap the lower spine rather than holding position like Guard. Other wise they looks the same.

And this one, like TsouChaio, LiYuDaDieng, were not practiced in forms. There are no body lay on the ground moves in forms. We only have fighting with feet on the ground, no matter the opponent is on foot, back, or belley.

In 8 step, after done Deng Ta/Pu, in real situation, one shouldn't pulse and should directly move to a ChinNa control or just stomp the head off while locking the elbow. I couldn't agree to any ground counter moves to Deng Ta/Pu in my view. However, if it is just a drill, then not the same.

And at a tangled up situation, small join ChinNa work better than major join ChinNa.

And the internal arts never train on ground fights.

That is what I know.

[Art D]

PL
Sounds as if your saying we should not even atempt to defend our position after Deng ta/pu that dosn't make any sence. its not over till its over. I agree that it is a sh*ty position to be in but to go down w/ out a fight its just not in me.

as far as jin jiao jian trainning do you guys out there train this stuff only as kicking? and is your observation of the guard being a form of jin jioa jian just an observation.

Are you one who beleives that in a fight nothing will ever get beyond stand up, and that the posability of a ground scuffel could never happen. I mean some one on you smuthering your ground kicking . I'm not sugesting that your skills are lacking and that there is no one out there that could take you down, maybe you just trip and fall over a curb.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Art D
PL
Sounds as if your saying we should not even atempt to defend our position after Deng ta/pu that dosn't make any sence. its not over till its over. I agree that it is a sh*ty position to be in but to go down w/ out a fight its just not in me.

as far as jin jiao jian trainning do you guys out there train this stuff only as kicking? and is your observation of the guard being a form of jin jioa jian just an observation.

Are you one who beleives that in a fight nothing will ever get beyond stand up, and that the posability of a ground scuffel could never happen. I mean some one on you smuthering your ground kicking . I'm not sugesting that your skills are lacking and that there is no one out there that could take you down, maybe you just trip and fall over a curb.

Part 1.

I am not sure of wich party you are direct at. If it is the one doing Deng Ta/Pu, he/she should finish off with ChinNa or knock the opponent out on the ground while standing with countoling. If it is the one being done Deng Ta/Pu on, then better to remember not to throw a unsafe commited punch next time.

Part 2.
Jin Jiao Jian is not unique only in 8 step. I have seen other CMA out there doing it too. Guard position is not what Jin Jaio Jian was mean to be, only it was unsuccessfully done and stuck, then it will end up like guard position. I have not had a chance to fall on the ground to applied that yet. I am too busy just to train to stay on foot.

Part 3.
I am the one who believe that I should focus training on standing fight, only notice the ground fight as back ups, not a part of my regular training. However, I don't mean to say others should do the same, it will have to deal with the body types, environments, and personaility. I only would share my knowledge on the people who fits the same way that I am training in.

Art D, I would really like to explain to you face to face, this is really the best way to pass on the info. correctly. Do you know any one here near Orange County, CA?

[Art D]

PL

Not out in CA. Often
I agree that sharing in a workout enviorment works best. Thank you for the invitation, I would love to take you up on it.It sounds like you have many things to share, & it is always a benifit to have that exchange.
Like you I foucs also on stand up and ground work as back up. In regards to the ground. It is lIke carrying a back up gun, I want to make sure it is loaded and fully armed.
Thanks for all the input I look forward to training together some time.

[mantis108]

Hi Art D,

You are most welcome, my friend. I am glad that you like the drills. Like I said I love share among friends. So I am definitely looking forward for more discussions on PM. :)

Paul,

Thanks for the input. It's very interesting and insightful.

"Great topic. Shen Fa + Shou Fa + Bu Fa + Yain Li. That is what 8 step has said: Shou Yain Shen Fa Bu. "

It is similar in CCK TCPM, We have: Yain Fa, Shin Fa, Shou Fa, Shun Fa, and Bu Fa. Basically, the 5 faculties of actions in CMA.

"The Guard postion, to my knowledge, existed in 8 step skill. It is a form of Jin Jiao Jain (golden feets scissor). Jin Jaio Jain is used mainly as a kick when distant with oponent, close attach it will be lower back separate clinch. It is design to squeaze and snap the lower spine rather than holding position like Guard. Other wise they looks the same. "

Thank you for the info. We do scissor as a kick as well. But I agree with you that it could turn into somewhat of a guard.

"And this one, like TsouChaio, LiYuDaDieng, were not practiced in forms. There are no body lay on the ground moves in forms. We only have fighting with feet on the ground, no matter the opponent is on foot, back, or belley."

Interesting, the Scissor kick is in our Ground Mantis form.

"In 8 step, after done Deng Ta/Pu, in real situation, one shouldn't pulse and should directly move to a ChinNa control or just stomp the head off while locking the elbow. I couldn't agree to any ground counter moves to Deng Ta/Pu in my view. However, if it is just a drill, then not the same. "

In a self defense situation, you are right. The drill is developed taking into account of a "sportive" environment. I believe the arguement has always been that CMA, PM being a prominant one, can not adapt to NHB events. That in my mind is not true. IMHO, We have the capacity and we can do it. All we need is just to work on it. That's all. I have work with my students that way so that we (and I stress both the student and I) get the benefit of a "work out" as well. Having said that, I must stress that I am not into the sport aspect but I would not bereft of my students' protentials and aspirations neither.

"And at a tangled up situation, small join ChinNa work better than major join ChinNa. "

Agreed.

"And the internal arts never train on ground fights."

I hear you and an interesting observation. Thanks

Regards

Mantis108

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Art D
PL

Not out in CA. Often
I agree that sharing in a workout enviorment works best. Thank you for the invitation, I would love to take you up on it.It sounds like you have many things to share, & it is always a benifit to have that exchange.
Like you I foucs also on stand up and ground work as back up. In regards to the ground. It is lIke carrying a back up gun, I want to make sure it is loaded and fully armed.
Thanks for all the input I look forward to training together some time.

Thanks for your respond. My ground fighting opinion is more of internal side rather than the Mantis side. It will be similar if you ask XingYi, BaGua, or Taichi MA people. The ground fighting do not fit the Qi's aspects. And I am working toward using more qi and less li direction, that keep me busy enough already. So far I have not seen people out there taking care of a wrestling take down situation(shoot and charge, grab leg/s or waist) as I did, I have only see kickboxing or wrestling ways to responds to such situation. (CMA has different take down techniques that I will respond differently)

I really hope to meet some advanced MA in take down so I can be more sure about how I taking care of that situation. I looking forward to see you some time in the future too:)

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by mantis108

"And this one, like TsouChaio, LiYuDaDieng, were not practiced in forms. There are no body lay on the ground moves in forms. We only have fighting with feet on the ground, no matter the opponent is on foot, back, or belley."

Interesting, the Scissor kick is in our Ground Mantis form.

{I think that is the part of internal arts blend into the 8 steps that make the ground views different form other styles of mantis. We took the XingYi and BaGua way of dealing with your opponent lay on the ground and resisting of falling onto ground yourself. Although we have still notice of some ground moves, just not in the regular form training, they are optional single foundations.}

"In 8 step, after done Deng Ta/Pu, in real situation, one shouldn't pulse and should directly move to a ChinNa control or just stomp the head off while locking the elbow. I couldn't agree to any ground counter moves to Deng Ta/Pu in my view. However, if it is just a drill, then not the same. "

In a self defense situation, you are right. The drill is developed taking into account of a "sportive" environment. I believe the arguement has always been that CMA, PM being a prominant one, can not adapt to NHB events. That in my mind is not true. IMHO, We have the capacity and we can do it. All we need is just to work on it. That's all. I have work with my students that way so that we (and I stress both the student and I) get the benefit of a "work out" as well. Having said that, I must stress that I am not into the sport aspect but I would not bereft of my students' protentials and aspirations neither.

{well, in the 2 man form, the drill situation happened often. In the real situations, will not give the same escape chances. One big issue about fitting the NHB, I don't really agree. First of all, to fight for pride will get you disqualified to learn TCMA in the first place. The fight must be beneficial or defensive motive. So the fight in tournament should be for learning experience, knowledge, making friends, not for winning and be the #1. To have mantis effective in some thing like NHB, I agree with you, it is do-able. One have to really understand what is advantage to do and what is dis-advantage and train very hard, especially on react correctly to the NHB situations. For example, most NHB can trow our punches and kicks many time and retrieved freely. In mantis, this shouldn't happened. About one or two strikes that failed, one should be espect not to retrieve without paying. Especially the forearm condition usage of mantis, it is trained for such ocation. ChuTui will be good if you are standing and your opponent were laying with bottom of feets toward you. And mantis door garding should keep the grabs out effectively, as long as you didn't unwisely left an opening, you should be able to deal with strikes and takedowns in NHB.}

"And at a tangled up situation, small join ChinNa work better than major join ChinNa. "

Agreed.

{And the large join ChinNa are good for finish off when not tangle up(you are in clear control)}

"And the internal arts never train on ground fights."

{If you are really into the internal arts, you will agree with what I am saying.}

I hear you and an interesting observation. Thanks

Regards

Mantis108

I have some experiences on it too, not just pure observation. But I need more experiences, I don't count that is enough.

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by PaulLin


And the internal arts never train on ground fights.

That is what I know.

This isnt exactly groundfighting the way a BJJ person groundfights but Xing-yi does have a groundfighting form doesnt that count as training for groundfighting?

I dont know that much about the form so i cant really talk about it other than this question.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Le nOObi


This isnt exactly groundfighting the way a BJJ person groundfights but Xing-yi does have a groundfighting form doesnt that count as training for groundfighting?

I dont know that much about the form so i cant really talk about it other than this question.

Does the ground fighting in XingYi that you know fight with your feet on gourn or you back on ground?

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by PaulLin


Does the ground fighting in XingYi that you know fight with your feet on gourn or you back on ground?

I dont know the form i only know of it. I started a thread to find out about it on the main forum called "Xing-yi"groundfighting in the main forum. This groundfighting is meant to be used when your opponent has put you on the ground so i would assume it contains both fighting on your feet and on your back.

[NorthernMantis]

108-

I'd love to share but my knowldge on mantis is only limited to wah lum and some seven star.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Le nOObi


I dont know the form i only know of it. I started a thread to find out about it on the main forum called "Xing-yi"groundfighting in the main forum. This groundfighting is meant to be used when your opponent has put you on the ground so i would assume it contains both fighting on your feet and on your back.

I think the XingYi fight while lay on the ground is not traditional. It should be a personal interpretation or modification of the traditional XingYi. The Traditional XingYi consisted of 5 elements, 12 animal, LianHuan, TsaShe, BaShe, AnShePow, and ShianShen/Ke. None of them give any fighting while lay on the floor application.