CMA standards?-North American Chinese MA Asso. and Shaolin Conservation soc.?

[gazza99]

www.shaolin.worldbreak.com

Apparanty these guys are non-profit, and their goals are to preserve the arts, promote them, certify people, and reinforce credibility.

It seems to me this would be a good idea for some sort of standardization to help reduce the number of OE Simon and Ashida types. But who decides the standards, and critiques them, who are these people? Does anyone have any more info on this Organization?????????? Apparentley the director is Chong Kim Wong?

Gary

[gazza99]

I thought you people would have something to say about standardization.......

TTT-not a far trip...

Gary

[GLW]

Looks strange to me.

No listing of WHO is behind this group. What are THEIR qualifications? How long have they been in the business of "certifying" people? What is the criteria?

Sorry, but having been involved in the attempts to bring organization to the CMA mess for many many years, this looks strange.

Secrecy and privacy on certifications ? What's up with that? If you were truly certified, would you not be OK with having the world know it?

There is NOT enough information to say legit or not...but there is definitely enough to raise enoug red flags to annoy many a bull.

[NorthernMantis]

If I my memory serves correct the shaolin conservatory is just shaol lin-do guys. My friend had a friend who trained there and he told me they used gi's.

I could be mistaking it for something else.

[guohuen]

I've seen a couple of sites like this. Make sure you send them all your money and promise to get more. What's you're Mom, girlfriend and sis look like?

[gazza99]

"What's you're Mom, girlfriend and sis look like?"

so your saying this is a slave trade site as well guohuen? :confused:

TTT

Gary

[guohuen]

I'm just miffed I didn't think of it first.

[Shaolindynasty]

There isn't really enough info on that site to make any kind of sound judgement (like most CMA associations). It does say they are about to open their first "kungfu temple" but we'll see. I've heard allot of kungfu sifu talk about opening a "kungfu temple" but actually the only one i know about is the wah lum temple. They need to post more about the criteria for certifiying people.

"As of July 1, 2002, the commission has issued 1272 Practitioner certifications, 4382 Instructor certifications, 123 Master certifications, and 2 Grand Master certifications."

Just curious if they have so many members then how come no names are mentioned on the site at all?



:confused:

[NorthernMantis]

In case someone missed my post the shaolin conservatory is shaolin-do as in it is run by Kwan Sin The'

[gazza99]

"how come no names are mentioned?"

Good Question Shaolin D. -It seems as though one of our Forum members has a "Master" degree from these people, perhaps he can shed some light on this thread for us?

Brent C.?.....where are you?

Gary

[wushu chik]

Here we go again! :rolleyes:

~Wen~

[gazza99]

Common Wen, dont be so enthusiastic!

[wushu chik]

I'm just tired of arguing with total idiots on here. Oh well, I'll go read the website and see if i can find anything more "me" to say!

~Wen~

[Serpent]

When a WOMAN speaks, a MAN listens



Actually, Wen, when a woman speaks a man pretends to listen while he thinks about her naked. ;)

[wushu chik]

Good point Serpent, but I think i get my point across!!

[anton]

It would be a good idea to have a CMA certification board. so that only genuine CMA kwoons could use the words "shaolin" or "kung fu" or "wushu" or the names of any traditional system (white tiger, hung gar, clf, wc taijiquan etc... etc...). Kinda like the way you can't call sparkling wine champagne unless it's actually made in Champagne.

[Colin]

There is no trace on the net of the "North Americian Chinese martial Arts Association" or the " Shaolin Conservation Society".

However I checked out "shaolin.worldbreak.com", and I am now the proud owner of "shao-lin.worldbreak.com".

I have a funny feeling that these people are maybe not quite as reputible as they are trying to make out.

Also the email address is invalid.

Once i've finished building my shao-lin.worldbreak.com site i'll let you know. Maybe you could all send me lots of money, and pictures of your sisters! :rolleyes:

[Brad]

The email address seems fine to me. In fact I emailed them and got a response :D Here it is:

Brad,

Thank you for your interest. I am sorry that I will not be able to give much information at this time. For some reason we have recently received a great number of inquiries. We are in process of creating document to summarize all of questions being asked to update our web site. Some questions about merger with SCS have no answer even yet.

Until then, the best source of information is to speak with NACMAA certified instructor in your area.

Sincerely,

Chong Kim Wong
Director of Operations
North American Chinese Martial Arts Association


>Hello, I was wondering who is involved with/in charge
>of your organization. Who started it? I'm asking
>because the idea of certification in chinese martial
>arts sounds interesting, but no one I've talked to has
>ever heard of your organization. Thanks!

[Brad]

It would be a good idea to have a CMA certification board. so that only genuine CMA kwoons could use the words "shaolin" or "kung fu" or "wushu" or the names of any traditional system (white tiger, hung gar, clf, wc taijiquan etc... etc...). Kinda like the way you can't call sparkling wine champagne unless it's actually made in Champagne.
I disagree. I think individual organizations should certify/police their own systems. I just don't think it would work.

[NorthernMantis]

Isn't anyone reading my posts? It's shaolin-do. Do I need to type it many times acoss the screen to get my point across?:D

[dezhen2001]

maybe just big letters? :D
Also for some reason i thought of Chong Wang (Shanghai Noon) when i read the names there :D Hope Shanghai Knights is good when it gets released!

david

[Brad]

lol, I read it... but how do you know it's Shaolin-Do? There's plenty of phonies who wear Karate uniforms :D Seriously though, does anyone know who Chong Kim Wong is?

[gazza99]

How are you getting Shaolin-do NorthernMantis?
If you do a yahoo search for NACMAA , you only get two sites, the one I posted a link to , and Brent Careys site? But if there are over 4000 instructor certs, and over 100 master certs, certainly someone else would be at least mentioning them on a site as Carey is? the below is taken from Brents site, since he obviously hasnt bothered to reply to this thread.....

"Among many other accomplishments, Sifu Carey is among a handful of instructors certified by the North American Chinese Martial Arts Association as a Master of Shaolin Chang Chuan or Long Fist Kung Fu and Shaolin Five Animals.

He received their highest rating in all categories, and the art he teaches is certified to be authentic Shaolin Kung Fu by the NACMAA research department. This is a significant achievement and is something relatively few instructors can claim. You can read about the certification process at the NACMAA/SCS website. Master Carey's certification number is M3657471 if you wish to verify it or review his evaluation results summary."

[Brad]

Something that makes me a little suspicious of the certification:
Acording to Brent Carey's website he took Tae Kwon Do up until 1990 where he switched to kungfu. But he was certified in 1991 as a master of Northern Shaolin, Shaolin Long Fist and Shaolin Five Animals styles. Maybe he just worded it wrong on his website and had been studying kungfu along with Tae Kwon Do? I hope that's the case and they didn't give certification to someone with one year of kungfu experience...

[gazza99]

Well I emailed Brent C. and asked him to enlighted us on his title and this organization...he refused to join us here, but provided me some info in his email..here it is


"Hi,

I think I will pass, as I just don't see the point. Regardless of the facts, if the thread follows the pattern it will just ramble on with no resolution. Various people will make various claims, assumptions, and inflammatory statements. A few people that actually have some direct knowledge will get fed up and give their real experiences. Thus starts the degenerative cycle of mud-slinging, and nothing constructive comes of it.

I will tell you what I recently told another gentleman inquiring about NACMAA (and a number of other things). I wrote:

------------------------------------------------------------
I can't tell you much about the organization as I don't know much. On a friend's recommendation, I applied for certification with NACMAA back in 1991. At that time, I just was nowhere near ready, but I applied anyway because I heard that the process could take years. The organization started the process of interviewing my students and instructors, reviewing affidavits, etc. One thing lead to another, and I eventually forgot about it.

Earlier this year Chong Kim Wong got in touch with me to ask if I wanted to finish the certification process. It took me a while to even remember what he was talking about. All fees were already paid (by one of my past instructors), so I figured I had nothing to lose. I did some checking into NACMAA myself, but didn't find much out. Members are only referred by other members, so it was difficult to find anything out until I found another member in my area.

There is not much to the organization. They don't claim to be an authority on Chinese martial arts, only a registry. In a nutshell, they examine the individual, determine if they practice Chinese martial arts (when compared with their research), and estimate the person's level of understanding and ability to pass it on.

You should not give much weight to their certificates. I hold a "Master" certificate. Does that mean I have mastered all aspects of kung fu? Hardly. At least, I hope not. It just means that they checked out my background, watched me demonstrate, and determined that as near as they can tell, I am teaching what they believe is authentic Chinese martial arts. The process is comprehensive, and I consider completing it as a significant achievement.

The problem is, once you give serious consideration to my certification, then you have to question the certifying authority (NACMAA). To evaluate them, you have to question their sources. Then you have to question the origin of those sources. There is no logical conclusion to this line of scrutiny until you distill the essence of reality - something I'm not going to get into.

So, I don't put much stock in these certifying authorities. I mention my certification on the web site to attract new students who have no other way of effectively evaluating instructors. I much prefer to be judged on my own merits, but this is beyond the understanding of most beginners.

Chong Kim Wong is a top-notch human, and in my assessment, an excellent martial artist. I met him in person back in May (I think). He was just one of those people that you KNOW is a kind and gentle person at the core of his being. If there is something about martial arts that he doesn't know, I don't know it either. I know he would discount my aggrandizement, but I would be happy to be half as knowledgeable as him. His knowledge is not just theoretical either. I sparred with him for about an hour.

Sources for more info? I would just contact them directly.

--------------------------------------------------------

In addition, I will tell you that:

a) They are not a money-making organization, at least not from me. They must have spent 20-40 hours reviewing my documentation, making calls, etc. Also, 4 people flew down to Seattle (on some other business), and tested me for an entire day. I never paid them a dime. Normally, the applicant just covers expenses (long distance, postage, travel, etc.), but since most of the work for my certification was done several years ago they lost the receipts for those things and didn't charge me.

b) I'm not sure how they calculate the number of certificates issued, but the numbers seem to me, well, generous. I asked Mr. Chong about that when I met him this spring, but don't remember what he said.

c) I know they have been around for well over 10 years since my first contact with them was in 1991.

d) The organization seems to be going through a difficult transition period with the merger of SCS (an organization I know nothing about).

e) Mr. Chong told me that the organization has been poorly managed in the past and they are making plans to increase their profile and gain credibility in the martial arts community. I recommended improving the web site (which now is just a few pages hosted at Worldbreak.com). He seemed skeptical about participating in the online community at all, and didn't seem very interested in spending any money on it. I believe they will still continue to rely on word of mouth primarily, but I tried.

So, these are my comments on the subject. Post these online if you must, but I'm just not interested in another one of these conversations."

Taken From Brents website, on the how to choose a school "things to avoid" section:
"Unverifiable Credentials - In the past, it would have been insulting (and perhaps dangerous) to ask your prospective teacher to prove his credentials. These days and in this country, you have to ask. If the instructor(s) is evasive or unwilling, it is probably best to keep looking. "

If the body that certified him is unverifiable, and he will not answer up to his own title I would submit that Brent needs to amend his "Things to avoid" list, or avoid himself for the moment!

Gary

[NorthernMantis]

How do I know it is shaolin-do? The reason is because I happened to come accross the shaolin conservatory web site along time ago looking for information on shaolin before the shaolin do flame wars began on kfo. At that time I though shaolin do was legit. The reason why I was looking was because I hapened to come accorss some very fraudulent shaolin schools in Colombia when I had to live there for a period of 2 years. These were not shaolin do however but their whatever it was was worse that shaolin do. Different lineage I guess.

[Brad]

I think all that's left to say is that until they get around to updating their website there's not much to say one way or the other about this organization. I do like the idea of being able to look up certification on the website with that code. Some of the larger schools should try this to keep track of who they've certified to teach, and make it easier for average people to find out if so and so is qualified to teach(acording to their parent school).

[gazza99]

I do like that serial number feature, if it was a verifiable legit org. it would serve it well, may eliminate much confusion and decit.

Gary