Kung Fu Hippie Rant

[greendragon]

I am offended by all the derogatory "hippy" comments used throughout these threads and others. terms like 'Tai Chi Hippies' 'stinkin hippies' etc. you are talking about people with open minds, pioneers in change. you've even mainstreamed their concepts and vocabulary. 'Peace' is good. it is what we achieve when we bring an attacker into 'harmony'. you refer to people coming up from the late 1960's approximately. that makes them in many cases your parents, your sifu and sensei. You will find some of us are pretty tough fighters with a colorful history. some have seen more reality than your "reality" fighters ever dreamed was out there. thanks for the rant.

[joedoe]

Shaddup ya hippy :D

j/k

[Fred Sanford]

shut up, hippie.

[Fred Sanford]

I wasn't joking.

[gazza99]

See George Carlins book Brain Droppings-specifically the chapter on politically correct language.

If you dont have it ill find some quotes for you hippies.

Gary

[guohuen]

Refer to bio.

[Mr Punch]

I'm basically with Greendragon.

Primarily I believe in peace. That's one of the reasons I do martial arts. No fluffy bull**** 'way of the warrior' type crap, but still taking the bu from budo from its historical derivation of the radicals for stop and spearman to its logical extrapolation. When it kicks off, I intend to stop the altercation with as little damage incurred to either party as possible. This is through a belief in peace and responsibility for your actions.

If I cannot solve the problem without serious damage, I will do my not-so-level headed best to **** my attacker up. This is through the same conviction in personal responsibility.

This belief in peace is from a belief in responsibility for what you do. When I was kid, dunno, maybe 8 or 9, I had my first serious fight. This kid came swinging and I felt calmness, well, nothing, and I just hit him, once, in the teeth. I remember the event (if not the year) very clearly. He went down. His bottom lip was completely open, there was blood everywhere. We were sent to the Head for a beating ('...and THIS is for being violent!!!':rolleyes: ), but my biggest fear was looking at this kid, and the blood, and thinking, 'What if he hadn't got up...'. We grinned, we shook and made up, and consequently, the Head didn't give the customary beating after all!

Anyway.

My belief in responsibility also carries over to not ****ting in your backyard. Or for that matter, anyone's backyard. And thus to caring for the environment. Every time you use that plastic bag once and throw it away, what the **** happens to it? The answer is nothing. It stays in roughly the same form for 25-100 years, slowly degrading, giving off toxic gases and tainting the soil. have you got kids? Well take your own ****ing bag then!

Am I a hippy? No, I'm a survivalist.

If I cannot solve the problem without serious damage, I will do my not-so-level headed best to **** my attacker up. This is through the same conviction in personal responsibility. And that goes, ultimately for attacks on me, or my house, or my environment.

My girlfriend is Canadian, and she says I'm a hippy, to which I just say, 'Nope, I'm a European!'. My grandmother and her generation believed in conserving resources and not wasting things, cos they lived through the War, and also because, IT JUST MAKES SENSE! And that's what I believe. Am I a hippy? No, I just come from a small country, with limited resources, and limited landfill space! (Of course, when i say I'm European, my GF says 'You never told me you were gay!' but that's another story!!:D ).

And my kungfu brothers should know better.

I was at another MMA fight yesterday, and John Igo, this Chinese shootboxer was kicking some serious ass, and the Japanese I went with were just taking the **** out of kungfu. This guy was probably the best fighter there, and in the end lost due to what seemed like a biased decision from the refs (even seemed this way to my Japanese companions). But everyone was still taking the **** out of kungfu for flowery hippy techniques!!! I showed the karateka some wingchun, and they were like oh! But usually even budoka here associate kungfu with hippy**** 'shaolin' from the movies.

Sorry about the rant, and a slight lack of sequencing, but I've written on similar themes more learnedly for various articles in the past (and I ain't gonna ****ing apologize for being an 'interlectual' neither nor nuffink!:rolleyes: ).

Martial arts, peace (and of course, sometimes war), and environmentalism (and sometimes anti-globalisationism) are all about responsibility. And I'll kick your ass if you disagree :p :D !!!

[Chris McKinley]

Gee, ya know, that's interesting. I just saw a dictionary from 1954 and darned if it didn't have both the word 'peace' AND the word 'harmony' in it. Also, I don't quite follow the logic that just because someone "came up in the 1960's" that it automatically makes them a hippie. Feel free to continue to be offended, since I am not talking about ppl with open minds nor of pioneers in change necessarily when I use the term hippie. I am referring to a sub-culture of ppl who, in their youthful naivete, not only questioned authority and cultural institutions, but threw them out wholesale in order to embrace anything and everything that came down the pike as long as it was different, exotic, esoteric, or in some other way represented to them a rebellion against Western values.

Neither was any logical coherence or logical fidelity used in evaluating these new paradigms. As long as it was new and different, it was accepted carte blanche, even mutually exclusive ideas were embraced. One day, it's Indian Buddhism, the next, it's Babylonian astrology, and the next, it's Chinese Taoism. Whee....what fun this all is!

In a martial arts context, such people often superficially embraced the esotericism of the Chinese internal arts especially, and they often did so without anything beyond a cursory superficial look into the depths of those teachings within the context of their culture of origin. They took what was already an esoteric and difficult to comprehend set of art forms and needlessly obfuscated them even further by overemphasizing, or in some cases, exaggerating the mysticism aspects of them.

As I said once before on a similar thread, hippies may have benefitted from Taijiquan, etc., but Taijiquan certainly didn't/doesn't need hippie culture. These arts did/do just fine without it, thank you.

[Mr Punch]

You're talking about how you use the term 'hippie'.

But it is now used not under the 1954 dictionary definition nor under the 1960s dictionary definitions, but under a 1990s or even this century's general cultural expression of someone who is a peace-loving (like that's a bad thing) drug taking bull**** loving freak with no concrete idea of what day it is, let alone any philosophy! I hate those people as much as you, for the bad rep that my martial arts have got, but my personal philosophy is one of freedom and personal responsibility and I will fight for those things! If you call me a 'hippy' because of that you are wrong.

[TjD]

at least most hippies are nice

[Serpent]

I bet Mat and Chris McKinley were braiding daisies into each other's long, flowing hair while they typed up those long-ass posts together in a wooden caravan on a commune somewhere!

;)

However, I agree with all of it! And, there's nothing wrong with being a hippy! This world needs a lot more love and harmony, a lot more care and concern for the enviroment and the well-being of others and a lot less greed and hypocrisy. Does how you go about that really matter? And what better than a hippy that can kick arse, but choses not to?!

:D

[Serpent]

You are a hippy, Mat! And TjD has a good point!

[Chris McKinley]

****, Serpent.....

You own a psychic network or something? Ya called it perfectly. Only thing ya left out was my not showering for a few weeks at a time and thinking that an outdoor concert was gonna solve all of mankind's woes.

Now I just want to buy the world a Coke and teach it to sing in perfect harmony. Who has the apple trees, honey bees, and snow white turtle doves?

[Mr Punch]

Those kind of ****in hippies, the world does not need. They smell. Most of their music sucks ass.

Just make sure you dispose of their bodies in an environmentally friendly manner!

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Serpent
You are a hippy, Mat! And TjD has a good point!

No, I'm a punk (1970s, 80s European definition, not North American white trash rent boy!!).

[Serpent]

Haha! Chris, you got it down! Although, a few more open air concerts wouldn't go amiss. I do love the mud and love of a good music festival!

Mat, you have to credit the hippy era for such giants as Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, Woody Guthrie, Bob Dylan, Janice Joplin.... I could go on for hours!

I too dig the punk thing (the real one, like you) but I won't hear a word against the music of the 60's! Tell me you don't like Floyd and you're going straight on my ignore list! (And so far that list contains no one, as I'm a hippy and I love everyone!)

;)


PS, Not Coke, Chris, cos that's a corporate world killing capitalist regime we could do without! ;)

[Mr Punch]

OK OK. Like most of those. But Pink Floyd? Have a word! Only one good album... the rather ahem... hippyish 'Relics'. After that, too many downers, and a bunch of navel-gazing self-absorbed up-its-own-ass pish! (OK those three expressions mean the same thing... emphasis, OK?!).

But I say: Donovan.

And I say: Pentangle.

Let G sort em out!

[Braden]

When I read the exchange between Mat and Chris, I think that the whole problem in this situation is that the people who tend to be the most vocal about any of these issues (be it environmentalism, pacifism, anti-globalization, etc; and be they punks, hippies, or whatever) are often the ones doing the least to help it. The recent G8 protests as a wonderful example.

[anton]

Originally posted by Braden
When I read the exchange between Mat and Chris, I think that the whole problem in this situation is that the people who tend to be the most vocal about any of these issues (be it environmentalism, pacifism, anti-globalization, etc; and be they punks, hippies, or whatever) are often the ones doing the least to help it. The recent G8 protests as a wonderful example.

Here, here!!

At my uni, there is an abundance of d***heads fitting the above description (mainly associated with the arts faculty). They wear unusual clothing and runa around shouting trite little chants about a random selection from of a list of issues most of which the intelligent members of this forum will be able to guess.

One of the better known "activists" recently said "I don't know what I stand for, I just want to change the world" - presumably he would be satisfied with changing it for the worse!

[Unstoppable]

What Uni are you At Anton?????

[Mr Punch]

I agree.

I have protested very loudly at 'peaceful demonstrations' when I have felt that there really wasn't any other option but to do so. And I've been very embarrassed by my 'fellow' protesters. I don't really believe in the efficacy of such demonstrations, despite having been to the anti-poll tax demo in the UK which was quoted by the Thatcher government as being the one thing that changed their minds: it was more because of the presence of the huge cross-section of society, including sweet little old ladies etc... not the ever present bleating unwashed!

I appreciate that some of these people may consider themselves disenfranchised or disempowered or whatever, but I don't buy that they've tried to enfranchise themselves in the first place!

They do more harm than good.

On the downside, any of the great American freedom pioneers would nowadays be shouted down as hippies. But that's as much a problem with marginalisation and radicalisation (and radicalisation of mainstream rightwing politics) as with what they'd actually be saying. Before anyone says 'how do you know what would happen?' remember these people tried AND succeeded to achieve a reasonable level of human rights for all. So, in the media circus you have to make a lot of noise while you are acting.

As for martial arts hippies, as Chris said there are people out there who do no good for the martial arts community in general. I've been told that tai chi was never a martial art! I've also been told that tai chi was developed as a tantric marital art!!

But Greendragon was complaining about the labelling, and I have to say I still agree. I don't care what hippies are labelled as, but I do care that the term is used against anyone who doesn't seem to conform to 'the norm'.

Peace :rolleyes:.

****ers :D .

[ewallace]

I hate it when stinkin hippies complain about being called stinkin hippies.

[Mr Punch]

Cheers ewallace! Coulda had money on it...!:p

[Merryprankster]

Actually greendragon, it was the other way round.

Hippies mainstreamed asian philosophy concepts. We didn't mainstream hippie terminology/ideology any more than we have picked up the slang or attitudes of any other social group or movement. Surfer slang and clothing in the 80's.... remember?

More precisely, the hippies were an outgrowth of the beats. Check out Kerouac.

Here's a controversial concept, but one I agree with wholeheartedly:

A Hippie is a Beat who lost respect for other people. It's the defining difference. The nice thing about the Beat point of view was its respect for positive qualities--you don't have to be like or necessarily understand the hard-driven overacheiving suit, but you can respect their humanness, empathize with their troubles and turmoil, appreciate the positive qualities they might posess.

I've never met a hippie, on the other hand, who wasn't pushy about "peace, love, dope" to quote James Earl Jones' Terrence Mann from Field of Dreams.

Too bad the whole beat scene has devolved into bad open mike sessions at snotty coffee houses. A **** poor imitation, at best, of the literary and personal genius to be found by living instead of simply being alive.

[greendragon]

Hippies "turned on" the western world to eastern philosophy. Those who say Tai Chi is not a martial art are not hippies, just modern day deluded flakes. Peace and violence are yin and yang, without one you would not know the other. And yes, question authority!

[guohuen]

Some of us were hep, not hip. When I was a schoolboy in the sixties my brother and I were poor so consequentially had longer hair as my folks couldn't afford regular haircuts. The nuevo riche white trash kids from the burbs used to chase us down, beat us up and cut our hair with school scissors. This stopped when I thrashed the five punks holding my brother down with a tree branch.
What did the one dead head say to the the other when they ran out of weed? "This music sucks!":D
Just a joke! Put the flamethrower down!
"Don't change D!cks in the middle of a screw! Vote for Nixon in 72!"

[Chang Style Novice]

"A Hippie is a Beat who lost respect for other people."

That's a surprising point of view from a guy who obviously feels an affinity for Ken Kesey, MP.

yours truly
semi-hippie, semi-punk, semi-B-boy, mostly just some guy.

[Stacey]

Good and bad, can't judge an entire subculture. Its more a clique fashion statement anyways.


as a new age subculture, yeah thats mostly BS and nonsense. They can't escape their culture, no matter how hard they try and they lie to themselves just as their southern babtist parents do, that they can be peaced out all the time. It think it created a sharp bitter undercurrent of anger whenever you suppress yourself in the interest of group solidarity.

[KC Elbows]

Well, if you don't like us, you can grow your own d@mn pot.

Geez, thankless b@st@rds.

BTW, not all hippies lack a defining viewpoint, just as all jocks don't date rape.

And yes, the hippy movement did introduce a lot of new viewpoints to western culture from other cultures. In fact, I find it likely that the western interpretation of many eastern principles is probably defined by the hippy cultures understanding of it at the time, which, flawed though it was, was still a lot more open and privy to such elements that the bulk of western society.

BTW, every interview of Bruce Lee I've ever seen has led me to the conclusion that he was a hippy.

Yes, members of the hippy movement did, in some ways, throw out the baby with the bathwater. However, radical change usually entails radical decisions, and the temporary abandonment of older western principles served a purpose in that it helped to minimize seeing the eastern model through the viewpoint of the western models previously inadequate vision.

Anyway, I could care less whether you like hippies or not, as we love you all.:p

[Chang Style Novice]

Hey, KC. Wanna go listen to The White Album backwards, drop some acid, start a charsimatic death cult and kill a bunch of people? That'll show these squares how peace-loving and pathetic we hippies are!

:D :D :D

[KC Elbows]

Sounds good. Can we call it "The Gentle Folk of the Holy Janice's Death Cult, reformed"? We could kill them all with environmentally friendly vegan cupcakes made with sunflower pollen and ajax.

Hold on, there's some CSNY playing.

I love you guys.

[greendragon]

I wasn't trying to get historical, rather Be Here Now. So e.wallace, care to enlighten me with the motivation behind your mouth ? ...Large black man to small white boy "that's right son, I'm a n*gg*r, now where's your daddy?"

[guohuen]

Chang, you still dating Leslie?

[Chang Style Novice]

I'm dating the rotting corpse of Sharon Tate, and GDA is really jealous.

on a related topic: What goes into 13 twice? Roman Polanski!

on edit: alternate punchlines include but are not limited to R. Kelly and Jerry Lee Lewis.

[Merryprankster]

Ken and the Merrypranksters were hippies the way they ought to have been, ******! :) I identify with Kesey's forthrightness, his willingness to live and the extraordinary cleverness of that group. I found them to be uncommonly resourceful and remarkably GROUNDED. Transcendence is spoken of in an ethereal manner, and the truth is that it's everyday life, not "something else."

I think he had more in common with Jack Kerouac and Neal *******. I happen to detest Ginsburg. I feel that, ideologically, he was a hanger on--a fringe figure who was the recipient of second-hand coolness without a truly original thought in his head. He seemed, always to me, to identify more with the fact that he was part of the group rather than himself.

Of course, what it really winds up boiling down to is the individual, as always.

Greendragon--read my post again until it makes some sense--WE did not "mainstream the hippie concepts," any more than any other group. The hippies helped mainstream Asian Philosophy and concepts. You pointed that out, I said exactly that previously.

This all predates me though! I'd sure love to hear some stories from you old geezers!! I'm sure my perspective is skewed to some extent.

[Black Jack]

I once killed a hippie and sold his foot to a bunch of chinese guys in a van.

[guohuen]

ROTFLMAO!

[KC Elbows]

I want my foot back.

[guohuen]

Sorry, your foot and the remains of Lenny Bruce are now part of a male stamina concoction being sold by the gram in a little booth in Hong Kong.

[greendragon]

MP< here's a funny picture for you, 1970.. long haired skinny kid trying to explain kung fu to a bunch of outlaw bikers... they laughed so hard they almost dropped their hand grenades!

[rogue]

How many of you lived through the Dark Hippy Years? Thank goodness that in the 70's Aerosmith, Van Halen and the punks saved us from that mess of bad clothes, bad food, bad music and horrible hygiene.

Most hippies were just spoiled middle class youth trying to get laid.

[KC Elbows]

Aerosmith and Van Halen should have stayed in the seventies. Everything after both band's early years was schlock, especially aerosmith, who started off promising and degenerated into cheesy balads that sounded exactly the same, or anthems that repeated the same phrasing endlessly("There's something wrong in the world today...wait, didn't I already sing this part?"):p

60's: Marvin Gaye, Aretha Franklin, Hendrix(most influential guitarist in rock history), Joplin, CSNY, The Godfather of Soul, the Beatles(most influential band in rock history), CCR, all except for possibly Aretha and James Brown HEAVILY influenced by the hippy culture.

70's: Zep(heavily 60's influenced), Aerosmith(a couple good albums achieved under the heavy influence of drugs, never to be repeated once the band cleaned up- hippies, anyone?), Van Halen(Great guitarist surrounded by mediocrity and a lead man who couldn't get along, good early stuff, dull later stuff), Sabbath(IMO, much more indicative of the good stuff that came out of the seventies than aerosmith, very original), Rush(good stuff, especially their middle period-thematically, very hippyish), disco

The rock in the seventies is a continuation of the hippy culture influenced music of the sixties, which in turn is a continuation of the blues/jazz tradition. Every subsequent reintegration of past musical forms into rock has largely been from the sixties era, with the exception of the recent integration of disco into rock and rap.

In fact, as far as influence on present styles, the seventies, with it's difining characteristic of long fixed compositions, is the least yieldy form to arise in the last forty years. Those bands with influence in the seventies largely fall into two groups: those who integrated jazz and classical composition into rock(like Rush), or those who continued the hippy tradition of trance music(Floyd).

This yielded modern day bands like Tool, a hybrid of trance, classical composition, and the rock style lyric.

All the seventies did was come up with some improvements on the forms of the sixties, NOT drop the forms adopted in the sixties and start from scratch.

There. I've gotten in my required posting for the day AND belittled aerosmith, a band that poses as themselves in the seventies.:p

[MonkeySlap Too]

I've had friends who hung out with hippies - my assesment was that for the most part they were selfish, self-centered, users (not drug users, but that too) who liked to pretend they weren't.

Most had pretty severe narcissistic tendancies and LOVED beads so much that they could resist stealing them. The only two professions I saw them persue with any gusto was making bad jewelry and selling bad drugs.

I think it was probably fun back in the sixties when the hippie thing introduced a break with the 'old culture' and introduced us to veneral disease, AIDS, overdoseing, and bad hygeine. Ahh, the affect of new found affluence and a useless war on a culture's youth.

Of course back in the sixties I would have been one too....hopefully minus those last four points. But in today's world most self-proclaimed hippies I've seen are more selfish than peaceful.

That being said, two of my best friends are former hippies, so those negative tendancies don't always seem to stick.

I can't speak to Merrypranksters points on the beats, but I pretty much hate poetry, but I dug Ginsberg's work, and most of the beats for that matter...

[KC Elbows]

Ironically, the eighties had more originality but less honed talent than the seventies, further demonstrating that the seventies were largely a continuation of the sixties and the good work of the hippies.

We still love you all.:D

[KC Elbows]

Monkey,
I haven't hung with the bead loving hippies.

BTW, AIDS is more a sign of the disco culture, late seventies.

While most that fall under the hippie banner are just there to veg, I've known a number who were productive members of society in the most unique ways. One was the originator of a highly successful brand of salsa who is, at this point, rich as heck, and constantly uses his money to do charitable deeds. One couple heads a foundation that provides high quality education for single mothers, and while they aren't rich, they are very influential people and are thought well of by all who meet them. One hippy I know is one of the best push hands players I've ever met, and lives a modest but productive life.

And then there's me. But then, I'm the penultimate bad hippy, fighting the corporate culture by getting a good corporate job and using that time to become the number 1 poster on KFO. The revolution will be moderated!:rolleyes:

Actually, I do a pretty good job, I just make sure my stuff is done before I post.

Anyway, I think those math club guys are the real problem. Never met one who didn't have their priorities messed up.

:D

[GeneChing]

As many of you know already, I used to work for the Grateful Dead. I did crisis intervention specifically with intense psychedelic reactions. And I proudly claim my hippie heritage! And to prove it, here's a pic of me with Mannie the Hippie (from the Letterman show) -http://www.rockmed.org/lsd/index.html - Our pic is the 8th one down on the left hand column, then again on the bottom - my name is misspelled Gean both times - the webmaster musta been stoned when he built the site. ;)

As for all of your criticisms of hippies - a true hippie is too high to care what you think. But a true hippie is not always high on drugs. Often, but not always. I've hung out with hippies on Dead tour, with Rastafarian elders at Nine Mile, with Saddhus in Rishikesh, and Taoists throughout China, and there is a common underlying vibe between them all. If you can't see it, well, those who tell, do not know...

[MonkeySlap Too]

KC - yeah, I don't deny that there are positive aspects or good people. I'm just talking to my experience. I respect those that take care of themselves, what else they do is thier own business. Any community focus is a real bonus.

But I resent those that prey on others or expect everyone else to pick up the tab for them. Most (but not all) of the hippies I've met fall into the latter category. But I admit, the sample size is limited.

I'm all about getting some slack, some peace and some peice, but it doesn't have to be an excuse to be lazy. There is a difference.

[guohuen]

arghhh!!! The bean counters are coming! The bean counters are coming! Hide the women and children!

[MonkeySlap Too]

Dude, no bean counting. Heck, I used to write comic books for a living.

I've got no beef with a Taoist outlook or living outside the corporate culture of today's America. I'm just pointing out that most of the self-proclaimed 'hippies' I've met are awfully self-centered, which made thier protestations about peace and love ring pretty false.

Those hippies that KC refers too, well they are doing good stuff, and they are probably able to fend for themselves as well.

Be slacked, but don't expect the rest of us to pay for it.

[ewallace]

So e.wallace, care to enlighten me with the motivation behind your mouth
Sure. I had nothing worthwhile to contribute. I also had a hunch that KC Elbows was a stinkin hippie. Now those suspicions have been confirmed. What a stinkin hippie. Hopefully my comments about stinkin hippies has managed to offend one certain stinkin hippie.

When there is a communication breakdown I either make a joke or start some controversy. Think of it as free live entertainment.

Little white boy to large black man: "You're my daddy, and this knife in your abdomen is to show you how much I appreciate the child support payments".

[greendragon]

MonkeySlap, those were the freeloader wannabes that brought down the movement. probably planted by the CIA.

[guohuen]

"Every town must have a place were phoney hippies meet..... Psycedelic dungeons popping up on every street...."-Frank (My guitar wants to kill your mamma) Zappa

[Black Jack]

Hippies taste like chicken.

[ewallace]

Hell if it's going to be that kind of party I'm ready for some hippy wings and beer.

[Black Jack]

Beer does not go with hippies.

They taste better with Zema.

[KC Elbows]

Actually, Monkey, I agree with you as well. Although I didn't know any that were into beads so much, I knew many hippies that were just into it to slack off, and at one point was one myself. But I grew up.

Also, I knew a memorable few who were in it for the control reasons you spoke of, and they're a pain in the butt.

As for me, I spent about seven years as the poorest hippie you ever saw. I travelled the country writing stuff that I never submitted anywhere, eating maybe one meal a day, and practicing kung fu. Fortunately, I learned not to sponge off of others, and those that I had sponged off of forgave me because they respected the fact that my entire existence was writing and doing kung fu, and they wanted to help anyway. By the end, it was that group of hippies that convinced me that I had spent long enough honing my craft, and that any more was just risking my life and health.

The final three months of my true to hippy lifestyle days were spent at a friend's land, far removed from society. I was the only person for five miles, had no car, and had enough rice to last the duration. Whenever I hear people talk about "getting back to nature", I sort of laugh, because I've yet to meet another person who understands it, though I know they're out there.

Since you guys are so into it, I'll share my hippyish lessons learned at my excursion:

-In missourri, there are these really cool butterflies, kind of iridescent blue, that are all over the ozark area. In spring and summer, they will all gather on mounds of earth, I think for moisture or something. Anyway, if you accidentally step on one when you're walking around, or basically if for any reason one is killed on that mound, the rest will never return to that mound, ever.

-On the land that I was on, there are three varieties of tic to worry about. The first are tiny and orange, and with time you will have the sensitivity to know when they are crawling on you instantly. The next to come out are larger, and are really easy to spot. The last look like little armored guys, and they are sneaky and very hard to sense, so you have to watch out for them, as they are the worst to get bitten by.

-There are also three varieties of bees, from small and yellow to large and somewhat green. All three hover at a particular height, and are the friendliest varieties of bees I have ever seen. You can sleep under their hives and they will never go for you.

-If you eat rice for three months and for the last two months a wild turkey comes to the side of your tent every morning and warbles endlessly, you will very seriously consider fashioning a crude spear and might even dream of eating turkey. Trust me, it will happen.

-You haven't gotten in touch with nature until nature is in touch with you. Meaning, when the animals no longer give warnings that you are there, then you will see them act in an unguarded fashion, not before. The day I knew the land was when the birds became discernable to me not just by the calls of the particular species, but by the personality behind those calls, and the individuals those traits belonged to.

-Your footwork is not good until you can run full tilt through fields of locust thorns and not get scratched, which takes about two weeks of hard work and torn pants. I probably could not do this now, but it is very possible, and it is the sort of thing you learn fast.

-The only real dangers are tics, because of lyme disease, and the locals, because the only ones who will bother a man camping alone for three months and hitting trees with their arms are friggin nutjobs. Tell them to leave or you'll get your gun, whether you have one or not.

-When an arctic blast hits, get up early, shroud yourself in blankets, and meditate until you can get out and gather sticks for a fire. Meditating will get your mind off of the cold, and the breathing will heat you up some. Figure on moving all day, or meditating. Don't play guitar unless you want to feel the most acute finger pain ever. And don't make bonfires on warm days, or you will suffer on cold ones.

-Enjoy the outdoors, and actively entertain yourself. For me, that was lots of writing, practicing guitar, and kung fu.

-Night is surreal on your own, and you will often find yourself fondly remembering people and places you have not seen for some time.

-Whatever happens, do not allow a friend to visit you two months in for one weekend in which they plan to bring up their experiences at a strip club. You will understand why the shaolin came up with such deadly techniques.

-In Missourri, there are owls that sound just like Bruce Lee. I kid you not. I slept on a ridge in the open one night, and was looking at the moon when one owl flew right over me, and blocked out the entire moon. I never heard it. Those guys are the shiznit.

There. Out hippy that.:D

[KC Elbows]

ROTFLMAO@ EWallace!!!:D

Well, now you know that I'm a stinking hippy. Of course, I already knew that you were "Free Live Entertainment", but that was from your homepage, and I don't know if "Free" is the right word for it, I still can't watch The Wizard of Oz due to your "Hundred Nights of Midget Love".:eek:

[Budokan]

Charles Manson was a hippy, as were his circus of disaffected youths. He wasn't exactly into the love and brotherhood thing, now was he? That's why I never bought into the "hippies are for love" B.S.

Hippies are anachronistic. Sort of like Teddy Roosevelt Republicans and LBJ Liberals. They're just something to laugh at now because they don't have any relevance to modern life.

Plus, they stink. And their women are hairy and their children root around in the dirt like grub worms and have names like "Hopeful Crystal" and "Godchild" and "Slappy Happy". I mean, seriously, how can you respect someone like that?:p

[Braden]

I think what bother's people here about the hippy-like-people isn't their similarities to the taoists, it's their differences. If you look at the taoist literature, you will find periods where they are strongly involved in promoting effective and responsable government, and you will find periods where they say - 'you know what? Forget that - let's just go be happy despite all that nonsense.'

If you look at the hippy-like-people, you see a confused path which wanders between the two extremes. They want to do their own thing, but alot of that involves necessarily feeding off the mainstream society. I'm talking about the topic of this thread, contemporary people for whatever reason have been called hippies. (I'm sorry, but moving to an island to grow drugs, then taking weekly trips to big cities to sell them is NOT extracting yourself from the evils of capitalism; nor is lining up for welfare cheques). But at the same time they say they want to promote change in the government - however, they don't actually propose any useful change, just decry whatever happens to be there; that is, if their methods were viable for political change at all, which they're not. This is inherently destructive. Their methods drain money from lower and lower-middle class workers in the name of economic responsability and destroy the environment in the name of environmentalism. And, like rogue said, it's mostly so a bunch of bored kids can get laid. THAT is the problem people have with the movement, and that is, analogously, why the term was introduced by some posters here to describe certain martial-artists, which I guess was the original question here.

[Spirit Writer]

I agree and disagree. See, the Grateful Dead were not hippies, they were musicians who payed music with such a passion that it made their dreams a reality. Look at Jerry: a big, meat eating, crack smoking, Mercedes Benz driving musicians who did not want to get caught up in an stereotype.

I've been to tons of shows and Rainbow gatherings, have long hair, surf and love da kind -- even where tyie-dyes -- but I shy away from the hippie term. Why? I think they are full of $hit. Most if the ones I met on tour where a bunch of spoiled rich kids trying to hide who they were. Nothing wrong with having money. But don't tell me you're "just crashing from here to there, maaaan" and then hop in a $65,000 Range Rover after packing up your sushi lunch. Or, don't rag about the governement not allowing you to do what you want (reefer) and then throw blood on poeple wearing fur or chain yourself to a McDonalds.

As for martial arts, give me a hippy taiji practioner anyday. Let him turn the other cheek for anothert uppercut.:)

[Merryprankster]

My favorite "neo hippy" experience so far was the IMF meeting here in DC.

There were thousands of them running around, protesting capitalism... smoking phillip-morris produced cigarettes, wearing gap jeans, and carrying North Face backpacks.

I respect KC Elbow style hippies.

I just want to poop on the birkenstocks of those who act like the ones at the IMF....

[rogue]

People who were not hippies.

Jim Morrison: drunkard, wore leathers.
Hendrix: Violent drug addict. And I believe that Clapton, Ace Frehley, Eddie Van Halen have all influenced more guitarists than Hendrix. And no one has influenced more players than Chuck Berry!
Janis: Drunk blues singer.
The Stones, The Who: Peace, love and harmony?
Zep: OK early on they sometimes played at being hippies.
The Beatles: They wore the fashions, but that was about it.
The Cowsills: nuff said.

[KC Elbows]

So, let me get this straight, the Grateful Dead were not hippies, Charles Manson was, they destroy the environment(?), come from rich families, buy islands to grow and sell drugs from or alternately take welfare checks, take names like "Moon Daughter" or "Budokan"(:p ), and drive Range Rovers.

****.

I can see why y'all don't like them. That's why, as Merryprankster pointed out above, I have my own style of hippy. Here's how you can be one:

-First off, you don't have to like the Dead, though you will need a high tolerance for them.

-Second, recognize that it is a young worldview that is not justified by the look(a la manson) but by the philosophy and it's attempts at realization(a la Bruce Lee).

-You don't have to come from a rich family.

-If you're buying an island, do something more useful with it than growing drugs for wholesale production, or just keep it as a pristine place to spend some time, which is the cooler option anyway.

-Go hungry instead of taking welfare checks, as those are meant for people in real need, and the whole point, if you are well to do, is to go through hardship and grow from it.

-You really don't have to change your name, but you can if you want, it wasn't my thing, it's better, IMO, to redefine your name, but obviously there is merit to taking a name as well(just ask Running Bull).

-Finally, you should probably not take your Range Rover on the road, as you'll just ruin it and create an artificial need for more range rovers in the world, and anyway, shouldn't you be driving something more fuel economical? Do it right, get an old Scirocco that is held together by rubber bands, old pieces of sock, and has clear plastic in place of windows. Load it up with five backpacks and get going.

-Learn not to sponge. Gain the ability to find instant work. Help out those helping you.

-Learn something about the politics you wish to talk about. At the same time, if you know something is wrong, you don't have to have another option at that moment to have a responsibility to stop it.

-Finally, toke responsibly, and if you must toke and speak, try to do so with others who are toking.

BTW, throwing blood on people with furs is cool, and that's all there is to it. Fur is a luxury that is unnecessary and involves bashing a things head in until it stops twitching, pot is a luxury that involves explaining things in a rambling manner until the listener starts twitching. Two different worlds.

If you've got to wear a fur, then I've got to pee. On your fur. While you're wearing it. And I drink a lot of water.

One last thing. A lot of the complaint has been about the rich kid hippies. I've known a few like this, and I have no problem with the idea of rich kids going without a few years to learn hardship and what it's like for others. I can see, however, how it can be offensive when they are not really going without.

Peace.

[greendragon]

thank you MP for making the distinction. the modern day "neo" hippies are just a copycat clueless generation of consumer clones. Charles Manson? I thought that was a swastika on his forehead not a peace sign. Grateful dead not hippies? guess again. Some of you have some really specific stereotypes in your head. Sounds like even hippies hate hippies. This thread has given me a glimpse into how people think and the different reasons they use the term. Some will call any MA that uses "energy" or chi a tai chi hippie, what's up with that ?

[KC Elbows]

Hendrix was a hippy. He wanted to play a riff that made him feel like he was floating!!! He wanted everything to be groovy!!! Remember, "I'm gonna wave my freak flag high!"?!!!

Janice was also a hippy, albeit a drunk blues singing hippy(remember, she started out singing folk-hippy, anyone?)

Beatles-Paul-fringe hippy John-Total give peace a chance communism flirting hippy Ringo-To drunk to tell George- Followed the maharishi, sang peace songs, cr@pped hippy when he wasn't eating hippy

Zep: Early on? Watched The Song Remains The Same lately? Plant's episode on it oozes hippy, it exudes hippy, nay, it extrudes hippy right through the screen! That's more than halfway through their history, and past the bulk of their achievements as a band.

Ace Frehley- ???????? Ack, you're hurting me with this one, if Ace Frehley was so influential, I guess that would explain Winger, but is this a good thing?!!!

Van Halen- Really, we should just say Eddie Van Halen, he's the only one worth mentioning from that band. I'll grant that you're probably right, as far as playing style, he probably has influenced as many or more, however, as far as songwriting, specifically lyrics, van halen does not exist or persist, and all of their good instrumentation was pretty early on. But I am clearly opinionated here, I just think Eddie should have gotten a better lineup, and then his music wouldn't be ruined by the people who sing and play along with him.

However, I may have to admit defeat due to the fact that I cannot place "The Cowsills". Who the heck are they?

[ewallace]

It's funny how many protest fur (rich ladies) and not leather(bikers). I guess it's much easier to pick on a bunch of ladies.

Where did I hear that from anyway? I think it was on a thread here a while back.

[KC Elbows]

It's because of supply. Cows generally aren't endangered. The animals used for fur are.

And yes, it's all about pouring blood on rich women. Like you haven't done THAT before.:D

[greendragon]

right on KC, Jimi Hendrix was the quint-essential hippie. could be he was for peace and love because he was airborne infantry paratrooper in viet nam.

[ewallace]

Cows have feelings too.

I heard it feels better to be a white castle slider than a cheese burger.

[Braden]

KC - A wonderful example of the neo-hippy destroying the environment happened in Ontario where protests succeeding in shutting down our nuclear power supply. It was replaced with a coal plant power supply. Good job, environmentalists.

[KC Elbows]

What really amazes me is the catch-22 in the method being used to define who is a hippy. Hendrix is not a hippy because he had a violent streak. Yet the rich kid is a hippy because he sponges from the system. The Dead are not hippies because Jerry owned a Cadillac. Yet Manson was because he had a beard and started a death cult.

And yet, no one has argued whenever I say Bruce Lee was a hippy.

This KFO is a strange place. I think I might stay.

No wonder Old Jong feels at home. It's just like his work.:D

[Felipe Bido]

Turn me on, dead man...turn me on, dead man...turn me on, dead man...

Sorry, I couldn't resist :D

[greendragon]

O Sensei Morihei Ueshiba was a hippie ?

[KC Elbows]

Of course he was.:D

[MonkeySlap Too]

Could it be that Hippies are like any other group, and as a group are rather hard to define? Could there be perfectly good people and nutjobs?

Yeah, probably.

But I'll still give you a hard time KC, despite having the coolest backl to nature story I've heard in years.

And Gene, well dude, you were getting free concerts. That's just smart, not slacking.

[BAI HE]

"Jimi Hendrix was the quint-essential hippie. could be he was for peace and love because he was airborne infantry paratrooper in viet nam."
Nicely said. See Orwell's essay's on Ghandi and Pacifism.

Most "Hippies" I know are bloodless Capitalist scuzzballs
who finally got their act together, this includes my parents.
Some are so conservative it is shocking considering the counter-cultural political enviornments they sowed there oats in.

"I wouldn't say conservatives are stupid people, but I will say most stupid people are conservatives."

[PLCrane]

Originally posted by greendragon
Some will call any MA that uses "energy" or chi a tai chi hippie, what's up with that ?

It's a way to categorize someone in a negative light and discount anything they have to offer without addressing any of the issues.

[Serpent]

Hey KC, what sort of thing did you write while in exile? One of the MA sites (is it Cyberkwoon? I can't be arsed to check) are paying $50 a shot for martial arts related fiction. Could be worth a stab! Unless, of course, getting paid for your writing would in some way devalue your art! ;)

I must be feeling violent today. I just said shot and stab in the same paragraph.

Must be all this talk of hippies!

[guohuen]

"If your young and conservative you have no heart. If your old and liberal you have no brain."

[BAI HE]

LMFAO!

[KC Elbows]

Serpent,
Actually, I'm preparing a short story for Cyberkwoon, I'll probably submit it next month. It's actually all written, but I'm still doing rewrites. It took me three stories before I got one I was happy enough with to submit.

Incidentally, after my stay on the land, I got a really dumpy apartment in KC, then, a little while later, was moving into a better place. I didn't own much stuff, 2 guitars, an amp, a 4 track, one tall box of clothes, one tall box of notebooks, one tall box of books.

Anyway, I moved the guitars and amp to my new place before work. While I was at work, some idiots broke into my apartment and stole my stuff, which must have been quite a feat, as the one full of books was mostly hard cover books, and I was wondering how I was gonna move them. The clothes box was light enough, but the one full of notebooks was almost as heavy as the box of books, and contained just about all of my work up until that point.

So, these morons worked very hard to get:

-Some worn out clothes worn to death by a hippy, combined value: nil

-Hardcover books from used book stores across the nation, combined value: a nickel.

-A horde of notebooks full of some crazy lunatics rants.

It was a sad day in the history of burglary.

What's kind of funny is that the loss forced me down new avenues in my writing, which ended up being a good thing.

Most of the stuff from my stay on the land was either sci fi, horror, or social commentary. Social commentary was my strongest of the three at that time, though now I would say fantasy is.

Once I lost the stuff, I found myself moving away from straight social commentary, as I found a lot of my work in that direction had too much of myself in it, and I tended to force the writing too much to fit what I wanted. By restricting myself largely to fiction, I can take a theme, follow it to it's logical conclusions, find the good and bad in that, and more effectively achieve the same thing I was trying to with my social commentary, but not have to force it or preach. If I want to rail against the greedy, I work on creating a realistic greedy character, and let the story take care of him in the proper manner, or let him be the victor, but see what price must be paid, or what have you.

[BAI HE]

Recommended listening:

"Sauget Wind" by Uncle Tupelo.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
My favorite "neo hippy" experience so far was the IMF meeting here in DC.

There were thousands of them running around, protesting capitalism... smoking phillip-morris produced cigarettes, wearing gap jeans, and carrying North Face backpacks.

I respect KC Elbow style hippies.

I just want to poop on the birkenstocks of those who act like the ones at the IMF....

I too want to poop on those Birkenstocks.

When I was younger, I soon learned to keep being a vegan to myself. Some people asked sensible questions, weighing things up. The first thing that most people said was: 'Why are you wearing leather boots then?'. When I was in my teens and just veggie, I tried canvas shoes which I had to buy every 6 weeks or so, because they fell off my hormonally challenging feet. Then I tried plastic shoes, which fell apart after a couple of months, and I soon realised would not rot for a very very long time. Then I discovered Para boots, the first pair of which I wore for over three years, every day. I polished them for work; I camped in them; I worked in the fields with them: I looked after them and they looked after me! I took them to the cobblers several times, and eventually I gave them to a tramp. And got another pair.

You have to be rich to be the above kind of hippy. I could never afford Birkenstocks.

But as for leather vs fur, leather is sometimes simply the best option, whereas fur is worn by (unts.


Originally posted by Braden
A wonderful example of the neo-hippy destroying the environment happened in Ontario where protests succeeding in shutting down our nuclear power supply. It was replaced with a coal plant power supply. Good job, environmentalists.

Braden, this is the dumbest thing I have ever seen you write.

'... It was replaced with a coal plant power supply...' It was...!? Who replaced it? The 'hippies'?

One of the reasons Bush is so keen on keeping out of any international consensus on pollutant emissions, other than his support for the oil and nuclear industries is his ongoing support for coal power. How much money goes into research for coal, oil and nuclear technologies compared to wind, wave and solar? (er don't ask me to answer this one, I knew three years ago, but I haven't looked into it so much since...:o :D ).

If you can tell me that it was the best (ie. most efficient: cost effective AND energy efficient) alternative, then maybe I'll accept your example as halfway valid. Probably not :D : I'm biased you know!!!

KC, props. I knew some people who tried this back to nature stuff. I kind of had a go a couple of times. It's impossible in the UK!

[KC Elbows]

If you stay out in nature long enough alone, you will most likely see a few space monkeys. DON'T FEED THE SPACE MONKEYS!

Just take my word for it, they get out of hand, and then you gotta spank 'em, and, barring industrial cleaners, there's no cleaning out space monkey spunk.

[KC Elbows]

Don't tell us we don't have a philosophy!

http://thamus.org/News/us/New_philosophy_dept.html

[ewallace]

Stinkin hippies.



If my last name was Zappa, my first name would probably be "thick unit". I would be moon unit's younger brother.

[KC Elbows]

And there IS a conspiracy, here's the proof:

http://thamus.org/News/us/one_party.html

[KC Elbows]

Need a how-to on being a hippy?

http://thamus.org/News/business/anti_capitalist.html

This one's not related, but just wrong:

http://thamus.org/News/investigative/Defrocking_Scandal.html

[GeneChing]

We should distinguish between hippies here since the term is a little out of date. Deadheads are a form of hippy but specific, sort of like how shaolin monks are a form of martial artist. Most young hippies (under thirty) are not real hippies but neo-hippies and ravers. Using them to generalize hippies is like using taebo to generalize martial artists.;)

monkeyslap too - Those concerts were free if you considered getting ****ed on, barfed on, bled on, bit and hit, free. Actually, it was all for a cause, the Haight Ashbury Free Medical Clinic, a place born from hippie philosophy and a cause I have fought passionately for for a decade and a half. See http://www.hafci.org/

[Chang Style Novice]

"monkeyslap too - Those concerts were free if you considered getting ****ed on, barfed on, bled on, bit and hit, free. "

And what's worse, you had to hear the Grateful Dead noodling away pointlessly for up to seventy three hours at a time!

[BAI HE]

Seriously, what is worse then a Grateful Dead bootleg tape?
I'd rather listen to "99 Luftbalons" for 8 hrs straight than listen
to ten minutes of a dead bootleg.

[KC Elbows]

Chang, Bai, don't mess with Gene.

Face it, this is a hippy friendly zone. All are welcome, but only we are right.:D

[Chang Style Novice]

Yeah, of course. I just would prefer that the movement was more Gang of Four/KRS1/Sly and the Family Stone and less Phish/Arrested Development/Dave Matthews Band.

[guohuen]

Whew! 99 Luftballoons for 8 hrs. If we could liquify that and put it in a 105mm howitzer shell it would be the ultimate weapon. Exept for of cource a 10 min. dead bootleg tape. But only the hippy underground would have those.

[David Jamieson]

Humans have this innate tendency to pigeon hole things in order to relate to and understand them from a point of reference they are comfortable with.

Hippie, yippie, yuppie, suit, beat, yada yada yada. tHey're all humans and they all breath the same air.

I don't think hippies "introduced" eastern philosophy to western society. I do believe that was done by scholars such as C.G Jung, Allan Watts and those of their ilk.

Hardly the work of a "hippie".

The hippies of the sixties were just a social phenom, same as the disco kids of the seventies, the punks of the 70's/80's the jitterbugs of the 20's and 30's, the zoot suiters of the 40's etc etc etc.

It seems that every generation really needs to define itself in some way.

Once again, this is related to our innate tendenccy to have to define and categorize the beyampis out of every thing.

true objectivity in thinking is the next big step in human evolution. And frankly I can't see that happening.

By the way, Hippies by definition are closer to luddites so therefor if you are here, typing away on the internet, you are NOT a hippy. You might have played the part but you certainly didn't go the distance. hahahaha.

The same can be said for all us lipstick zen pracs here on the board. If we can just accept that for the most part we are a bunch of poseurs, we will move ****her ahead in our understanding of and our actualization towards personal Kung Fu.



peace

[BAI HE]

Alan Watts rocks. The Dead do not.
I can somewhat respect the Hippie movement, but have you
seen what some of these ex-hippies have become?
I've worked with a pair of ex-hippie VentureCap boys
and they are flat out nasty with the high eyebrows.
They also have made a ****load in the on-line porn movement.
Digital P U S S Y on visa with no free love to be had.

"Never trust a Hippie"
- Johnny Rotten

[KC Elbows]

Geez, Kung Lek, you didn't have to bring the luddites into this.

Granted, the hippies didn't introduce eastern philo to the west, but they introduced it into the popular culture of the US in a way Jung and the rest could not, though Jung was probably better informed than most of the hippies on the particulars of eastern philo. However, you are correct, mostly hippy is a style, but the notable ones were notable partially due to a sort of philosophy they sort of had at the time.

**** luddites.

All right, I'm only posting here to fight the man. Does that still make me a hippy?

Answer carefully Kung Lek, I've got a rotten ham and a lot of postage. This time of year, that could constitute a health hazard by the time it gets to you.

[David Jamieson]

KC, you slay me! :D

I live in Toronto and we are in a heat wave and a garbage strike at the same time!

Mail your ham and be done with it!!! hahahaha.

peace, love and free exchange of ideas! (and hams!)

i think Gene's right, hippies are too stoned to give a darn about anything other than getting high.
That's the crux of their offerings to the world. i.e not much really.

whereas, peaceful philosophical types have been with us as long as the written word and longer than that still.

Bertrand Russell was the one responsible for the creation of the "peace" movement. The symbol for peace that we all know is actually semiphore (check it airmen) and was used by russell for his anti nuke demos.

i think the long hairs of the sixties were justr another form of rebel without a cause. I mean really, what did they want other than their own political agendas whatever those were. hahahaha.

silly hippies, trix are for kids.

peace

[KC Elbows]

D@mn pork grease is keeping the stamps from sticking.:mad:

[KC Elbows]

Anyway, Kung Lek, "peaceful philosophical types" doesn't fit on a T-Shirt very well.

Actually, IMO, the original hippy movement had a context that it was within, and while many were part of it as a fashion statement, there were those who had passionate ideas that they stuck by.

However, it seems to me that the original movement was tied to a series of conditions that were intrinsic to the hippy movement. One was an overly authoritarian leadership/old boy club that had gotten too used to having their way. Another was Viet Nam. Yet another was the continuation of old school racism. There's more, but I would say those were the big three.

Well, the overly authoritarian administration that was used to having their way learned that they would have to eventually win the vote of many of these people denouncing them, and became a little more approachable to the masses, especially over time. The war ended, and while it was not just the hippies that contributed, they had a lot to do with making it possible and reaching other groups, for right or wrong. Finally, with time the race issues became much less blatant.

Without all this, the hippies lacked context. But, in the original time, I think they did have a context, even if many of them did little more than act as megaphones for the words of their leaders, much like many supporters of various political parties.

So, why do I call myself a hippy? Well, thanks for asking. I don't know. I suppose it's the closest group idealogically to me, though I also call myself a liberal. I suppose I think of hippy in a different way than many people, and so when I say hippy, it's just shorthand for what I see as all things hippy. I suppose I should not, as Kung Lek pointed out, pigeonhole myself so much, but at the same time, just because someone uses the same philo as me, but uses it as an excuse to be an idiot, I'm not gonna say I'm different thatn I was just to distance myself from that.

BTW, I'm working a double shift, and there's absolutely nothing to do, so I'm getting all reflective.

Must...stop...typing

[KC Elbows]

****it Kung Lek, now you made me think. That's a nasty habit you have of being all reasonable and having a point.:)

OK, seeing as I have one view of what a hippy is, and others another, I can assume that my viewpoint is narrowed by my own experience, as I am familiar enough with enough of you all to know that you aren't just choosing a viewpoint to be narrowminded, with the possible exception of EWallace, who is just afraid that we're all gonna find out he is Ashida Kim.:p

Therefore, if all these viewpoints can still define a hippy, hippy can't really be a person, but a path. Because I noticed certain things on this path, I think my observations are what hippy is. At the same time, others on the same path came out of it with different observations than I, so I know I didn't notice everything along that path, and that some might have come out of it with more, and some with less.

When I say that life is about the simple things, I don't think I am a taoist, though a taoist might say the same things, because I saw that as a hippy. Taoists didn't make the simple things, so I know they are not taoist, but neither did the hippies, therefore I know they aren't hippy.

This is complicated. Nice job Kung Lek, you've messed up my whole self image. Now I'm gonna have to make up a new term just to describe me.

OK, I hold a slew of beliefs pasted together that gradually take on a more meaningful whole as long as I keep working at it, and I like to hang on bosoms.

From here on out, everyone, please call me a pasty.

I'm just an honest pasty fighting the man!

I'm not sure my new movement is gonna catch on. I need to organize a music festival if the pasties are to have a chance.

[rogue]

You're talking about hippies and don't know who the Cowsills (http://www.robinrecords.com/cowsills/fcbook01.html) were? What a poser! They were the ones that had the hit "Hair"! :p

The Beatles were the greatest "me too" group in history. They, along with George Martin, could take any type of music and make it sound better then anyone could. Note that without the Beach Boys Pet Sounds there most likely wouldn't have been a Sargent Pepper. Rubber Soul their take on folk. Can't be hippies with that kind of work ethic.

C'mon man, Zepplin was just Zep.


If you want to talk hip there was none hipper than the Man (http://www.interlog.com/~wad/sambio.html) If anybody "got" the sixties it is him.

[KC Elbows]

See Rogue, I told you I'd have to admit defeat over the Cowsills thing. I am such a poser.:o

OK, zep was zep. Plant had hippyish leanings, but you're right, zep was zep.

And Sammy WAS the man(not as in fighting the man, or the man keeping us down, or anything like that).

You don't see many people nowadays with that sort of talent. He was the strongest talent of the rat pack.

God, I'm gonna be at work for 24 hours straight and you beat me with a well timed Cowsills reference. It is a dark day for hippies everywhere.

[rogue]

I almost got to see Hair when I was about 11 or 12. My cousin was going to take me with my Moms permission until Dad told here about the play. I did get to see Hello Dolly twice, once with Pearl Bailey, and once with Phyllis Diller. The Pearl Baily show was extra special since the 69 Mets were sitting right in front of us! My mom chewed Ron Swaboda out when he grumbled about giving me his autograph.:)

Some went to Woodstock, I went to Hello Dolly.:D

I know some hippies (sixties vintage) and they are really sad, it's like the world passed them by and they can't figure out what's changed.

[Chang Style Novice]

In Led Zep related news, Dolly Parton covers "Stairway to Heaven" on her new album. No, really. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000066TPL/qid=1026273142/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/102-9926933-0528153)

[KC Elbows]

There's been a bustle or two in HER hedgerow.:D

[Chang Style Novice]

You're alarming me, KC.

[KC Elbows]

Don't be alarmed now...:D

[David Jamieson]

ahhh, the Cowsills...They were Canadian, farm grown healthy fresh family types.

Not even close to your garden variety unwashed down with everything type.

peace

[rogue]

See, I knew Canadians were evil!:eek:

[guohuen]

it's just a sprinkling for the may queen

That's OK, Dolly could sing the phone book and it would sound good.

Rogue, you dog! You got to see Pearl Bailey live! That's way cool.
I'd try for oneupmanship, but most won't know who The Great Al Hibler is.:p

[GeneChing]

For the record, there were no "bootleg" dead tapes. The dead encouraged taping, even set up a special section so tapers could record. It was a hippy thing to mess up the recording industry. You gotta respect that.

What did the deadhead say when the drugs wore off?
"wow, these guys really DO suck.":rolleyes:

BTW, did you guys ever read the article I did on Dead Drummer Mickey Hart? In was in our awful New Age issue experiment - http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/kf-200005.html - in retrospect, it wasn't one of my finer works, but it was really fun to interview Mickey.

Dolly doing Stairway - I just gotta hear that. Remember the Gilligan's Island version? or the might Dread Zeppelin, with Torte Elvis? Stairway, what a classic. I heard it on the way to work this morning and, just like always, it brought me right back to those awkward junior high school dances, sweaty adolescence, that first dose of hormones, oh yeah. Stariway, what a classic!

[KC Elbows]

There was once a cover album of zep tunes called "The Song Retains the Name". That one always cracked me up.

As a side note, Jerry did some albums, largely bluegrass, with a player by the name of Tim Lake, who is my father's music teacher. My father runs one of the larger bluegrass newsletters out of Lexington, Kentucky, and I've met some amazing players through him, and, of course, banjo players.

How do you tune a banjo? Take the strings off.

[ewallace]

stinkin hippies

[BAI HE]

Patchouli stank!

[Braden]

Mat

"this is the dumbest thing I have ever seen you write."

:eek:

"... It was replaced with a coal plant power supply...' It was...!? Who replaced it? The 'hippies'?"

This gets to the exact problem. These people are quick to complain about anything that they can be convinced is problematic, but they don't offer any alternatives. Note - everything is problematic. They are destructive rather than constructive. They didn't say "Hey, here's something WAY better than nuclear power for the environment, why don't you fat cats use it!?" They just said "Nuclear power sucks, you must remove it." And enough of them said it long enough that politicians decided they had to listen. The nuclear power disappeared. The protesters were happy. They never thought to ask the question, "Yes, but what are the alternatives?" The alternative is coal, which is way, way, way (way) worse for the environment than nuclear.

These people call themselves environmentalists? They single-handedly increased by a magnitude the per annum pollution we have to deal with here. That's not environmentalism; not by any argument.

"How much money goes into research for coal, oil and nuclear technologies compared to wind, wave and solar...If you can tell me that it was the best (ie. most efficient: cost effective AND energy efficient)"

Do you honestly believe that people go to the energy industry and say "Hey, I can do this better and cheaper for you. I can put a billion dollars a year in your pocket, no questions asked with my wind power" and the industry tells them to screw off? You've read too much AdBusters if you do.

If you want to be pro-wind (or whatever) power, be pro-wind power. Don't be anti-nuclear power. If you can submit a better solution, it will be adopted. The people I'm talking about are too busy telling everyone else how wrong they are to promote anything though, which was exactly my problem in the first place.

P.S. I wear canvas shoes and consider myself an avid environmentalist. I'm also avidly pro-nuclear power.

[greendragon]

a "glowing" response..

[David Jamieson]

Gene- Torte Elvis and Dread Zeppilin was a whole lotta love,,bubay! hahahaha. THat band ROCKED!

That was some Kung Fu tunage if ever I heard talent on the airwaves.

btw-the dead are a rocking good group of folks who exude peace and love.

peace

[Merryprankster]

Braden,

Amen.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Braden
Mat

"this is the dumbest thing I have ever seen you write."

:eek:



Apologies: a little harsh sounding. What, cos I'm English I can't be as abusive as most people on this board?! :p However, you don't often write dumb things so there wasn't much competition!


Originally posted by Braden
Mat"... It was replaced with a coal plant power supply...' It was...!? Who replaced it? The 'hippies'?"

This gets to the exact problem. These people are quick to complain about anything that they can be convinced is problematic, but they don't offer any alternatives. Note - everything is problematic. They are destructive rather than constructive. They didn't say "Hey, here's something WAY better than nuclear power for the environment, why don't you fat cats use it!?" They just said "Nuclear power sucks, you must remove it." And enough of them said it long enough that politicians decided they had to listen. The nuclear power disappeared. The protesters were happy. They never thought to ask the question, "Yes, but what are the alternatives?" The alternative is coal, which is way, way, way (way) worse for the environment than nuclear.

These people call themselves environmentalists? They single-handedly increased by a magnitude the per annum pollution we have to deal with here. That's not environmentalism; not by any argument.


agreed.


Originally posted by Braden
Mat"How much money goes into research for coal, oil and nuclear technologies compared to wind, wave and solar...If you can tell me that it was the best (ie. most efficient: cost effective AND energy efficient)"

Do you honestly believe that people go to the energy industry and say "Hey, I can do this better and cheaper for you. I can put a billion dollars a year in your pocket, no questions asked with my wind power" and the industry tells them to screw off? You've read too much AdBusters if you do.

No.

Which people? Who would go? And which people own the nuclear industries, the coal industries, and while we're at it the oil industries? It is not 'an energy industry': this is a specious fallacy. It is many energy industries. I'll find some lists. I take it you were fired up when you wrote this, but please don't put words into my mouth.

Oh, and I have no idea what 'AdBusters' is. :)


Originally posted by Braden
If you want to be pro-wind (or whatever) power, be pro-wind power. Don't be anti-nuclear power. If you can submit a better solution, it will be adopted. The people I'm talking about are too busy telling everyone else how wrong they are to promote anything though, which was exactly my problem in the first place.

P.S. I wear canvas shoes and consider myself an avid environmentalist. I'm also avidly pro-nuclear power.

Thank you. Though I prefer you didn't call it 'pro-wind': sounds like 'pro-BS'!!!:D I am anti nuclear power for one reason: waste. How it is supposed to be a clean industry I don't know.

These people we were talking about are ****heads: agreed. The way you stated your example was far too simplistic for a huge subject, and is the kind of 'argument' that plays into the hands of too many ****heads on both sides of the debate, keeping it away from the realms of realism. I'll look some stuff up. I researched this at uni and out (in a science degree, not politics, or some environment hippy**** nonsense made-up degree) but unfortunately most of my stats are about two or three years old.

I will come back to this.

MP: thanks for your reasoned and eloquent addendum. You've obviously studied this for a long time.

[rogue]

Al Hibler the bluesman?
Pearl, the 69 Mets after the series, what more could a young lad wish for? Why a brief trip to the NY Playboy Club for a Shirly Temple, (thanks Uncle G!).

My dad did a lot of work with hippies, but he was a NYC cop. He'd beat them during riots, drag them to the hospital or doctor when they had bad trips, and take them to the station house to call mom and dad when they were broke, hungry and wanted to go home to the burbs, he even delivered a hippy baby.

Gene, was Hart the drummer that could keep time?

[Braden]

Mat

"Apologies..."

Thanks. No worries though.

"Who would go?"

Presumably, someone who was honestly interested and active in producing change.

"It is not 'an energy industry'"

We have an energy industry in Canada. It's a branch of the government.

"I take it you were fired up when you wrote this"

Not even a bit. The day I get fired up here is the day I stop reading/posting here.

"but please don't put words into my mouth"

Did I? The quote you're replying to was a question asking you about your beliefs. It was prompted by your previous post which suggested you believes alternative energy is being ignored despite being superior. Since you didn't explicitly say so, I asked if that's what you meant.

"have no idea what 'AdBusters' is"

It's a monthly magazine which features collages of pictures from the standard media altered with quotes and stories and put together creatively. It's slated purpose seems to be to make people open up their minds about the propaganda they are exposed to. The art is incredible and I agree whole-heartedly with their purpose; however, the continually exhibit far-leftist politics in their message. My feeling of the magazine (beyond the good artistic quality) is an interesting analogy to this whole discussion: people don't need more propaganda.

"I am anti nuclear power for one reason: waste. How it is supposed to be a clean industry I don't know."

Yeah, there's waste. Far, far less waste than any previously used source of energy. And waste that can be disposed of in a completely controlled manner, unlike the other traditional energy sources. I don't like the waste either. I just prefer it to the current alternatives, which has been my exact point all along.

"The way you stated your example was far too simplistic for a huge subject...keeping it away from the realms of realism."

I'm not sure how a specific example from reality can keep a discussion away from the realms of realism.

"in a science degree"

Excellent. More people need to do this. I too sought out a science degree so I could inform myself intelligently about these issues. I've been having a hell of a time trying to convince my politically-active friends as to the value of doing literature searches in scientific (including social science, etc) journals, rather than relying on the media or counter-media.

[Merryprankster]

Why, because I chose not to reiterate the same points Braden made and make a redundant post?

It's a simple case of "Be careful what you ask for. You just might get it."

It's the same as when people want lower taxes and then get fussy when services are cut and/or the debt goes higher.

Nuclear power has its good and bad points, just like coal. But I would say that the Nuc plants are far less harmful than coal. With coal, especially if they are burning bituminous, rather than anthracite coal, you get air pollution, acid rain, damaged ecosystems and property miles away from the same, increased asthma risks, higher ozone levels, and indirect support of strip mining, because that's really the only economically feasible way to get at large coal deposits, and in some cases, heat pollution of aqueous ecosystems. Did we get to greenhouse gasses? Scrubbing the stack emissions only does so much, and varies from state to state within federal guidelines. Not only that but scrubbers basically come in a couple of varieties--one is a reburner that continues the burning of hydrocarbon compounds--this reduces soot, but increases greenhouse emissions. The other can be chemical absorption with something akin to a catalytic converter--and that produces solid waste, and also has some greenhouse gas effect. You can refresh the palladium or platinum and in some cases, I believe, rhodium that is used in the converter, but that produces heavy metal effluvient that must enter the waste stream either in liquid form or, solidified and buried in a landfill--even one that handles heavy metals with a lined pit--that will eventually leach into the ground water supply. Further, in most instances, at the federal level, it is the total emissions of a STATE'S set of plants that is regulated, not each plant's emissions. So you could have a new, ultra-clean plant (as clean as it can get anyway) and then across the state, an antiquated, 1930's plant that smokes like a barbeque by comparison--but hey, THAT state doesn't care, because it meets federal requirements overall... so, instead of making needed renovations, they build a higher smokestack, reducing immediate area pollution, but ejecting pollutants higher into the atmosphere....where prevailing winds carry them to some other state or even country, which has to worry about them instead. Oil fired plants have a similar problem.

Nuclear power gives you leftover radioactive waste which must be encased in glass canisters, and buried some distance below ground. There is some steam, and heat pollution of some ecosystems because you have to cool the closed jacket coolant system with an open raw water type system. There is always the ever present specter of a meltdown, of course, or radioactive waste leaking--but remember that Chernobyl was an old graphite pile..., and the safety violations were egregious...Do we have those old graphite piles still in the US? I can't remember...

Wind is an interesting idea, but is only feasible in areas with decently strong prevailing winds. We use a lot of power in the US, and wind won't meet the need right now. Besides, wind farms take up space--and that will impact ecosystems as well--albeit certainly not as much as a coal or oil plant.

Solar cells are currently not feasible, as they don't deliver enough wattage per unit area, and have the added problem of being DC only. They would have to be run through a converter to be changed to AC, and anybody who's ever done any maintainance or been in industry can tell you that a DC motor, with its brushes and rings, is a serious pain in the ass, and you get more bang for your buck out of an AC motor. They deliver more torque at a lower weight and cost than a DC motor. DC power also has serious transmission problems--transmitting DC power over long distances is extremely complicated due to power loss.

That, of course, brings us to Solar plants using reflectors to boil water, which drives a steam turbine. That delivers AC power at least, but suffers from a lot of the same problems as a wind farm. It takes up a LOT of space, and would only be truly useful in areas that had a large predominance of sunny days. Storing power is something of an issue (wind farms have the same problem). It can be done, of course, but god forbid there be a peak usage hour and you can't deliver....

Hydroelectric is right out. The damage to the ecosystem is ENORMOUS.

Tidal generators are still experimental, and touchy little beasts as well. Besides which, some places, like the Bay of Fundy, have really great, consistent tides, and others don't. They won't ever be a universal solution. (Shame, really... it's a cool idea...) They suffer from the same problems as wind farms and solar plants.... But at least the water turbine doesn't have to be cooled, so no heat waste.

Personally, I think the immediate future of power generation lies in fuel cells. There are some experimental models in Long Island, as I recall, that are powering several suburban blocks, and doing a bang up job of it. We need to dump some serious money into hydrocarbon fuel cells, and get them up and running. Waste products are water and CO2...however, hydrocarbon fuel cells are up to 95% efficient, compared to 30%. While the current is DC, as I recall, the sheer "greenness" of the power source more than makes up for that--not to mention the sheer efficiency. Can you imagine getting 3 times as much energy from the same hydrocarbon fuel? My car would get about 90 miles to the gallon!Then, we need to work on hydrogen fuel cells-- which will eliminate the CO2 waste. If we can perfect hydrogen fuel cells, and get enough wattage from them we'll be looking at green, feasible power, for awhile to come, while we look for even better sources.

I believe that new power research is woefully underfunded.

But, people keep wanting something for nothing, and you have to weigh the good and the bad and come to a reasonable decision.

I was on the Rainbow Warrior II once, and had to sit and listen to a person who advocated a return to the age of sail with auxillary engines, just in case. Excuse me? I LOVE sailing--but as a mode of international commerce, it's utterly impractical.

I've SEEN car carriers and tankers underway and they're enormous. Never mind that sailing is hugely manpower intensive, and much more dangerous. It's also reliant on the most fickle of things--the winds. A great circle route means absolutely nothing if you can't sail it.

It's that kind of impracticality (like in Braden's example) that demonstrates absolutely no forethought.

[Serpent]

So you know about this stuff then, MP?

Errr... what's a hydrocarbon/hydrogen fuel cell?

[Merryprankster]

I was an engineer officer (not to be confused with the guys who actually work, OR an engineer in the merchant fleet) on a ship. The learning package involves being familiar with the ways different power generating systems are set up, and gives you a decent overview of the necessary components of systems of this type.

It's an excellent base to start from with regards to learning about other things.

A fuel cell is a nifty little device that turns hydrogen and oxygen into usable electricity. Basically, there is an anode and a cathode, just like in a DC Battery system. The anode and cathode are seperated by a Proton exchange membrane. It only allows protons to go through.

The cathode is positive. The anode is the negative bit. There is a platinum catalyst on the anode side. Hydrogen gas is forced under pressure, through the catalyst.

Platinum has the rather neat ability to split hydrogen molecules into individual protons (hydrogen ions) and electrons. This is one of the reasons it is used frequently in organic chemistry--it facilitates replacement of a group with a hydrogen atom.

Anyway, the on the other side, is pressurized oxygen. Thanks to localized charges due to the shape of the electron cloud around the O2 nuclei, and the extreme attraction of the hydrogen ions to said localized negative charge, the hydrogen ions go through the proton exchange membrane to the cathode side, where the oxygen molecules are. The electrons can't go through though, so they are trapped on the anode side... so now I've got an overwhelming imbalance of positive and negative charges seperated in such a way that they can't get to each other directly.

Solution? Connect the anode and cathode via an external circuit, and make the electrons do a bunch of work before they get to the cathode! You can drive motors, lights, etc. Eventually, the electrons make their way to the cathode, where they hook up with the hydrogen ions (protons) and the O2 to form water.

A hydrocarbon fuel cell does exactly the same thing, except you have to strip the hydrogen from the hydrocarbon fuel in question. A little dirtier and a little less efficient, but perfecting that technology FIRST, then moving on to a pure hydrogen cell seems more realistic to me.

[Merryprankster]

I've got my numbers wrong, apparently--a hydrocarbon cell powered car is anywhere from 26 to 34 percent efficient, whereas an internal combustion engine powered car is about 20% efficient.

A hydrogen cell, however, is 80% efficient.

Here's a good site....

It also goes into some of the more exotic fuel cells....

http://www.howstuffworks.com/fuel-cell.htm

[Serpent]

Wow! I actually understood all that. You describe well Professor MerryP!

So, I now have more questions!

1) Is the water produced as a by-product clean? Because if it could be used in the general water supply for drinking, then that's be another advantage of the system.

2) Why in the Sam Hell isn't this technology being seriously researched and advanced right now!?

[Merryprankster]

The water is clean. Might have some trace platinum impurities--probably under the normal detectable levels, but it should be clean.

This technology IS being researched. But I think throwing more money at it would be a **** good idea.

[Serpent]

So do I now!

I'd put my name to that petition.

There's a petition somewhere right?

There's got to be a petition.

There's always a petition......

[anton]

I say we need more environmentalists like MP. When was the last time you met an envronmentalist realistic enough to admit that a certain more environmentally-friendly solution is not economically feasible.

[Merryprankster]

Couldn't tell you. I've obviously never researched or reasoned my way through this issue before :rolleyes:

[anton]

Just to clarify, I wasn't being sarcastic. I was referring to when you said:

"and indirect support of strip mining, because that's really the only economically feasible way to get at large coal deposits"

Such open reference to 'the actual' rather than excuses for the consequences of their actions, alluding to 'the ideal', are, in my experience, rare from environmentalists. I was further impressed by the amount research you had done on alternative energy sources.
Perhaps more people would listen if environmentalists did their research and focussed on raising public (and more perhaps importantly corporate) awareness of the potential of more environmentally friendly and more efficient energy sources, rather than loudly protesting against the shortcomings of what is currently in place, without any consideration of what is likely to replace it, should the protest succeed.

[Merryprankster]

anton, I'm sorry. My post was sarcastic, but wasn't directed at you :) It was directed at an earlier comment, not made by you.

Thanks for your sincere compliment.

[guohuen]

Ethylalcohol is probably the cleanest burnable fuel. Carbon Dioxide is the only troublesome byproduct. This is true also of hydrogen, but the only economical way to produce hydrogen is by saltwater electrolysis which produces a lot of arsnic and other pollutants. An oil refinery is already almost a distillery. Very little modifications would be nessessary to convert it. The alcohol and oil industries have invested vast amounts of money to keep this from happening. They cannot agree to work together.
(How's that for a hippy rant.)

[guohuen]

Yeah, Al Hibler did the original version of Unchained Melody. He had a bass and baritone that could shake the room in his late seventies when he was blind. (He was louder than the small PA in the club). In my opinion Bill was the drummer that could keep time. He has the ride cymbal from hell going on.

[Mr Punch]

MP: have you been extrapolating again? Didn't your mother tell you it'd make you go blind?!:D

Thanks for the excellent and informative post. I mean it. So much better than 'Amen'. And it means I don't have to bust my balls quite so much to find some of the points I was going to make. The effieciency stats haven't changed so much in the last couple of years; nor do I guess, have the funding stats, unfortunately.

I suspected you might know a good deal on this subject so it ****ed me off when you just implied that the reverend Braden needed no more back up than 'Amen', when you are usually the first to jump in crying for empirical data.

I'm still not disagreeing with you.

Braden: I don't agree with your supposition that nuclear waste is safely disposed of. I have never seen any evidence other than it being the opposite.

I thought I said pretty explicitly what I thought about alternative technology, even if I phrased in a question to you about what you believed, as you hadn't been explicit in your post about whther you were a supporter of the nuclear industry. Whatever. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough... I don't agree with the nuclear energy and I believe the energy needs of a responsible society can be easily met with cleaner methods.

My point about ownership of the industries was that there are many vested and competing interests involved, a fact not altered by the Canadian government having an energy branch. This competition is not always based on a 'free' market and even if it were, it would not necessarily guarantee any safety measures. The question still remains: who owns these industries? Who funds them? Who are the shareholders? Are you telling me that the government owns all of the infrastructure, and has regulated in-house contracts for maintenance and waste disposal? This is a question. I am not implying anything, nor am I hiding any of my beliefs.

I'm still checking a couple of things, but at the moment I'm pretty busy, so while I may post a couple of flippant comments on other threads in the next couple of days, I intend not to post much on this one until I have more time to adequately present myself.

Respectfully...

[Braden]

Mat

"I don't agree with your supposition that nuclear waste is safely disposed of. I have never seen any evidence other than it being the opposite."

Er... what exactly is the evidence you've seen at all?

Here's a passage explaining the process: "After the fuel has been in the reactor for about 18 months, much of the uranium has already fissioned and a considerable quantity of fission products have built up in the fuel. The reactor is then refueled by replacing about 1/3 of the fuel rods...When fuel rods are removed from the reactor they contain large quantities of highly radioactive fission products and are generating heat at a high rate. They are then put in a large tank of water about the size of a swimming pool. There they become less radioactive as the more highly radioactive isotopes decay and also generate less and less heat...[when the tanks are full] They must either send the rods off [for reprocessing] or build more tanks...Reprocessing removes any leftover uranium and the plutonium that has been formed...The fission products are then put in a form for long term storage..." (from Dr. John McCarthy, Stanford http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/nuclear-faq.html his pages have some good information in general on this topic; worth checking out )

Such waste for a large reactor is 0.5 cubic meters/annum. After reprocessing, the fuel cells can be reused. For various reasons, the US is currently not reprocessing (though all the other nuclear countries are), and all it's waste is currently kept in stage one (the large swimming pool stage). This stuff contains material that can be turned into stuff for nuclear weapons, so the US government is highly motivated (not including any environmental concerns) to make sure it's not simply dumped somewhere.

So what's going on that's unsafe, as per your observations?

"I thought I said pretty explicitly what I thought about alternative technology, even if I phrased in a question to you."

By definition, if you phrase a statement as a question you're not stating it explicitly. Moreover, before you were upset I put words in your mouth, now you're saying I jumped the gun to not put the same words in your mouth? I'm confused.

"as you hadn't been explicit in your post about whther you were a supporter of the nuclear industry."

From my post in question: "I'm also avidly pro-nuclear power." :confused:

"I don't agree with the nuclear energy and I believe the energy needs of a responsible society can be easily met with cleaner methods."

Maybe you do. That doesn't change my point that the people who called for the removal of nuclear power never voiced any views regarding this 'cleaner method' (let alone be productively active in it's development or deployment), they simply wanted nuclear gone; which they got and were satisfied by. So they induced and were happy with a change with harmed the environment, so they shouldn't be calling themselves environmentalists.

"My point about ownership of the industries was that there are many vested and competing interests involved"

Sure. Yet there is still a 'energy industry.' I made a statement saying one could approach the 'energy industry' with a proposition. You said such a thing didn't exist so one could not, in fact, do this. I pointed out that the thing did exist. You agree now it does, only there's alot of groups involved. So this doesn't invalidate my original point that there is specific infrastructure in place one can use to make specific proposals (get specific information, etc).

"it would not necessarily guarantee any safety measures."

I'm not sure where you get your information about the energy industry, but it explicitly does guarantee certain safety measures, and enforces them with force of arms (what we call policing). Maybe they're not guaranteeing the particular safety measures you or I would like, but they're certainly guaranteeing some.

"Are you telling me that the government owns all of the infrastructure, and has regulated in-house contracts for maintenance and waste disposal?"

Much of and yes.

[@PLUGO]

From "what's a Hippie" to Nuclear Power Clean or Unclean!

I don't have it in fron of me... But a recall reading an Essay that had some Scary stats on Nuclear Waste Facilities...

something like 80% of them leak up to 30% of the wastes they contain in a given year... was pretty neutral about the topic of Nuclear power until I read that...

Still, wish I had that info infront of me while posting... But I applaude the informative discourse!!!

[JusticeZero]

Originally posted by Design Sifu
I don't have it in fron of me... But a recall reading an Essay that had some Scary stats on Nuclear Waste Facilities...
something like 80% of them leak up to 30% of the wastes they contain in a given year... was pretty neutral about the topic of Nuclear power until I read that... Y'know, it's amazing how often any set of 'statistics' like that are created by pulling numbers straight out of their awrse. Whenever you see a number like that, just remember that good ol' "98% of all fights go to the ground". - it's probably similar in terms of how well researched it is.

Anyways, i'm partial to biodeisel as well. Deisel fuel made from vegetable oils. The main obstacle seems to be that no-one actually seems inclined to do anything to advance it with things like recycled material and such.

I have to agree that most "environmentalists" I hear of or meet are terribly anti-environment.

[@PLUGO]

Well, I'll surely agree that "stats" & "Polls" can easily be pulled out of one's A$$!!!
Just look at BUSH's approval ratings for proof of that!!!:p :cool: :p

snicker

Anyway, the local Recycling Center (http://www.ecologycenter.org/) now uses 100% BioDesiel (http://www.ecologycenter.org/recycle/biodiesel.html) Engines for their fleet of trucks... Pretty cool.

[Serpent]

A guy in Vietnam (I think) was running his pick up truck on vegetable oil for years. When he realised that people thought it was a great idea and asked how he did it, he happily went public with the design of his engine. Then promptly dissappeared.

You want good alternative fuel and energy? Get rid of ****wits like Bush (all pro-oil money and power) and take the power of the oil industry away from the middle east. Its in their interests to keep alternative fuels out of the public sector.

People power, that's what we need!

(**** hippies!)

[Braden]

Thanks for some extraordinary examples of exactly what I complained about to begin with.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Braden
Thanks for some extraordinary examples of exactly what I complained about to begin with.

What do you mean?

[rogue]

"A guy in Vietnam (I think) was running his pick up truck on vegetable oil for years. When he realised that people thought it was a great idea and asked how he did it, he happily went public with the design of his engine. Then promptly dissappeared."

Yes that is a true story, and **** Jimmy Hoffa, his flying saucer and his men in black for abducting the poor fellow. I didn't see this happen but Mothman told me about it.

[Braden]

Serpent - Specifically, you acted in the exact manner which I have been criticising.

Your contribution to a discussion on energy alternatives is that Bush is a ****wit.

[Serpent]

Yeah, ok, I'll elaborate. He wasn't taken away for anal probing in Hoffa's spaceship.

He was paid an enormous sum of money by oil-interested parties to shut the **** up about his designs. To a guy in Vietnam feeding his entire village for the rest of his life is more important than the possibility of saving the planet. In his own way he succumbed to the same greed that drives the oil industry, but in some ways you can't really blame him.

Sorry if the expression "Then promptly disappeared" filled you with thoughts of spaceships and conspiracies. Says more about you than me, my dear old Pooba!

[Serpent]

Braden, my response to anything is that Bush is a ****wit.

You can talk about the price of tea in India or the smell of a rose in an English garden and I'll still maintain that Bush is a ****wit.

And seriously, you don't agree that Bush has vested interests in keeping oil as the main energy currency?

[Braden]

I don't have a problem with people maintaining Bush is a ****wit.

I have a problem with people who describe the belief set of 'Bush is a ****wit' as being environmentalist. I have a problem with 'The answer to fixing the environment is getting rid of Bush, because he's a ****wit.' Maintain Bush is a ****wit all you want. Don't delude yourself into thinking you're active or interested in the environment or energy concerns. Logical consistency; it's all I ask for.

[Merryprankster]

Mat,

Fair enough! I apologize for my grumpy response.

[rogue]

I, as most of the world have a vested interest in oil, it's called now wanting to shell out thousands of dollars for two new alternative fuel cars.

I really doubt the guy in Vietnam existed.

[Serpent]

Braden. If Bush had signed the Kyoto protocol and ratified a combined effort at enviromentalism, he would have sent an enormously important message out to the world that enviromentalism is important to him and his country. However, he refused to ratify because, and I quote, "The American way of life is not negotiable." (See also my point to Rogue below).

That sends out the enormously arrogant message: **** the planet, America will continue to live a life that could very soon kill us all.

That makes Bush a ****wit and removing him in favour of someone with a more globally viable opinion of enviromentalism is enviromentalism in itself.

(BTW, this is but one of countless ways in which Bush proves himself to be a ****wit.)

***

Rogue. Well, I saw him on the tv news, pointing out his engine mods and big bottles of vegetable oil, but believe what you want.

The trouble is that you are a part of the problem. Not thinking past the end of your nose. Whether the world will be better or off or not, you'll be ****ed if you'll pay for a new fuel vehicle. You think enormous reform will come for free?

Besides, who asked you to buy a new car. Develop the new technology, release the new fuel cars and stop making petrol engine cars. When your old car finally dies and you need a new one anyway, you'll have to buy a new fuel alternative vehicle. A few generations of that and the petrol engine will go the way of the vinyl record: enthusiasts and specialists.

[Merryprankster]

Serpent,

And you want what? The US to be more sensitive to global concerns? Just trying to clarify...

[Serpent]

Yes.

The US uses far more resources than any other country and is considered the premier civilised nation in the world (not by me, but by many). Therefore, in my opinion, it has a responsibility to lead the way forward in what's best for everyone in the long term, not in what's best for America now.

[Merryprankster]

Oh. I get it. It's another one of those with great power comes great responsibility things.

Newsflash: With great power comes the ability to act like a 900 lbs gorrilla. Kissinger understood that rather nicely.... Is it wrong? Eh, debatable. But certainly history bears out that great power gives you the ability to ignore or refuse to do things you don't like.

[Serpent]

Yeah. And look what happened to the British Empire, Rome, etc.

"It is the doom of men that they forget."

[Mr Punch]

Braden.

despite being busy, and vowing to myself and my gf that I wasn't going to post much I managed a 9000 character response to you on Friday, which was subsequently lost.

Oh well.

I haven't had time to do the research I 'threatened' (!!) and frankly, I have some rather more important things on. Suffice it to say, I'll do a potted version of my criticism of your posts on this thread later today. Then I'll probably have to bow out!

In the words of FuManchu: I will return!!:D

[chingei]

Originally posted by Serpent
Yes.

The US uses far more resources than any other country and is considered the premier civilised nation in the world (not by me, but by many). Therefore, in my opinion, it has a responsibility to lead the way forward in what's best for everyone in the long term, not in what's best for America now.


ohohohohhoohohohhoohhohoho!

you can't see the tree for the forest, comrade.

[Serpent]

What do you mean?

(And there's an enormous difference between saving the planet and communism, so try using a little intelligence in your next post).

[chingei]

Originally posted by Serpent
What do you mean?

(And there's an enormous difference between saving the planet and communism, so try using a little intelligence in your next post).

figure it out, toravich

(obviously, a LITTLE intelligence is a lot more than you can muster)

[Serpent]

Thanks for your input, Chingei.


:rolleyes:

[chingei]

Originally posted by Serpent
Thanks for your input, Chingei.


anytime

[Serpent]

So getting back to an actual discussion, anyone else have anything to say on this?

Mat, I'd be really interested to hear what you have to say.

MP, when you say that the whole "great power/great responsibility" thing is a debatable point, what are you referring to? Can you summarise the points for and against in your opinion?

[Merryprankster]

I have a simple question: Can you point to a hegemonic power in the history of the world that has been as benevolent, overall, as the US?

I think you're going to have trouble finding one. On the whole, we do pretty well, all things considered

The truth is that the US is not to blame for every problem out there, and neither is it RESPONSIBLE for solving the problems that are out there. In some cases, it might be a good idea, but that doesn't mean it's responsible to do so. The US isn't morally obligated to assist places "just because." It's nice to do so, but it isn't required.

Painting the US as a gigantic monster or selfish behemoth is hardly accurate--but painting it as an icon of righteousness and virtue isn't accurate either. The real answer is somewhere in between, and I get remarkably irritated with people who insist the US is some sort of demon and those who think we're God's ordained.

[Serpent]

Can you point to a hegemonic power in the history of the world that has been as benevolent, overall, as the US?



No. But then again, none of the previous hegemonic powers were stripping the planet of it's resources and exploiting the planet's various populations to the degree that the US is.



The truth is that the US is not to blame for every problem out there, and neither is it RESPONSIBLE for solving the problems that are out there.


No one's asking you to go out and help everybody. The US usually only helps if there's something in it for them. Usually oil, or strategic placements for military outposts.

We're just asking you not to take so much and to set an example of looking to the future well-being of the planet not the short-term well-being of the US. Huge difference there.

The US isn't the biggest demon in every regard. For example, Australia has the worst greenhouse emissions per capita in the world, but with a population of around 19,000,000 it's still a **** sight cleaner than the US. But more importantly, the Australian prime minister has his nose so far up Bush's arse that you can't see his collar. So it's just as important for the other countries to make their efforts, but they are a lot more likely to do so if they're following an example from the arse in which their nose is stuck!

Do you agree with Bush's statement that "the American way of life is not negotiable"? Do you think that's even vaguely responsible? After all, the first people that will feel the effects of over-resourcing the planet are those that use the most. Don't you think that the US is slowly strangling itself with arrogance and blindness?

[chingei]

Originally posted by Serpent


We're just asking you not to take so much and to set an example of looking to the future well-being of the planet

who's "we"?

[chingei]

Originally posted by Serpent


No. But then again, none of the previous hegemonic powers were stripping the planet of it's resources and exploiting the planet's various populations to the degree that the US is.




ducking the question.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Serpent


Do you agree with Bush's statement that "the American way of life is not negotiable"?

you are clearly incapable of understanding this statement

[Serpent]

Chingei, you are clearly incapable of being anything other than an arrogant, argumentative troll.


You asked Who's we?

In this case, those on the other side of the argument. People with a viewpoint the same or similar to mine.





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Serpent


No. But then again, none of the previous hegemonic powers were stripping the planet of it's resources and exploiting the planet's various populations to the degree that the US is.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



ducking the question.



You having trouble reading now? You'll notice that the first word of my paragraph that you were so kind to reproduce is 'No'. What part of no don't you understand? How is a plain and simple No ducking the question in any way. I then went on to clarify that viewpoint by pointing out that the question was moot anyway and detailing why.





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Serpent


Do you agree with Bush's statement that "the American way of life is not negotiable"?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



you are clearly incapable of understanding this statement


Why? I understand that Bush is not prepared to compromise in any way the current American way of life even if it means destroying the planet for all future generations.

What does the statement mean to you?

If you want to make yourself sound important and clever, Chingei, try to back up your facetious comments with something akin to an argument. Otherwise, shut the **** up and let the rest of us get on with the discussion.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Serpent

with arrogance and blindness?

irony

[Merryprankster]

I'll respond REALLY briefly because otherwise, it would take forever.

The Kyoto Protocols don't actually address the issue. They have some discussion of emissions reduction, but do NOTHING in the way of binding participants to manpower and monetary investment in alternative energy or use. You'd just trade one form of pollution for another--I install scrubbers in my stacks, make a slightly better catalytic converter, and BOOM! I've got increased heavy metal pollution instead of greenhouse gas pollution. Six of one, half dozen of another. Pick your poison.

Secondly, the idea that we're just TAKING from the planet is stupid. Our consumerism supports the rest of the world. That's the reality of the situation. I might remind you that we have LOTS more acreage than most other developed nations. There's some very real energy costs involved with shipping goods from one place to another. New York is 3000 miles from San Francisco.

Now, the President's comments were not particularly well thought out, but here's a little context w/regards to his statement:



"I will not accept anything that will harm our economy or hurt our American workers," Bush said. "I'm worried about the economy and the lack of an energy policy and the rolling blackouts in California," he said.

Kind of bad timing to try and ratify something like that.

At any rate, the Kyoto Protocol is an empty feelgood document. It has no substance. It's like when our Congress issues a resolution for or against something, instead of passing a law--it sounds good, but carries no weight at all.

Give me a treaty that discusses investment in alternative energy sources, and promising new efficient ways of using existing power sources, and then we've got a deal!

[Serpent]

Chingei:



If you want to make yourself sound important and clever, Chingei, try to back up your facetious comments with something akin to an argument. Otherwise, shut the **** up and let the rest of us get on with the discussion. [/B]

Merry:

I hear what you're saying. However, it's a bigger picture than that. People won't change their ways overnight. But if the big powers like the US are seen to dismiss things like Kyoto (even if it is essentially an empty document) then everybody will simply say, "Why should we bother then?" Which is exactly what's happening.

If the Kyoto Protocol is such an empty document, then it would have done the US no harm to ratify it, thereby galvanising the rest of the world into positive action. To be seen doing something percieved as positive is almost as good as doing something positive if it gets the ball rolling.

There won't be any money put into alternative fuel research until it's seen that people are prepared to do somthing about the current situation. It's not an all or nothing offer.



Secondly, the idea that we're just TAKING from the planet is stupid. Our consumerism supports the rest of the world.


This risks going off on the complete tangent of globalisation, so I'll let it pass for now. That could be another thread entirely. ;)


Also, Bush's sentiments about protecting American workers and so on is all very well for votes and ratings, but saving the planet is not going to be easy. It will require sacrifice from everyone in a position of prosperity. Of course, we can all just say bollocks to it, I'm happy now and not giving up my slice of the pie for anyone. Then our descendants will curse us from the ruined desert that we've left them to live on.




Now, the President's comments were not particularly well thought out,


This could apply to every single time he opens his mouth! ;)

[Merryprankster]

Serpent--there's very real political risk in backing a treaty that doesn't mean anything, and it also has real consequences.

You send a message that feelgood treaties are ok. You don't have to do anything useful, just write up a piece of paper that talks about happiness and joy, instead of addressing the issues at hand.

Secondly, I'm not sure how familiar you are with the US system. The president has no authority to enter into treaties with foreign powers on his own. Unlike the Prime Minister, who, thanks to the structure of the party system and the merging of legislative and administrative responsibilities, is practically guarenteed support for any treaty he or she agrees to, the president can only say "yeah, we'll see about getting that through." Here's the relevant passage in our constitution:


He shall have power, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, to make treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur

Of course, you need a quorum as well or else the vote doesn't count, but that's more a point of order....

So he would have to invest considerable time and effort in trying to get a treaty as controversial to the US leadership as this one is, through the Senate. You'd have to do some wheeling and dealing and that costs political capital. If it doesn't make it, you burn some bridges and run the risk of being seen as ineffectual. You take a stand against it, and you're guarenteed, with a little tough talk, to sound like you "won't take no guff," to some people. This is the way politics works. Tough noogies, unfortunately.

So yeah, there's some real cost, both real and political, in backing a treaty like that.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Serpent



If you want to make yourself sound important and clever, Chingei, try to back up your facetious comments with something akin to an argument. Otherwise, shut the **** up and let the rest of us get on with the discussion.

aw, got yer little pink, frilly panties in a bunch? how moving.


you are a victim of the typical liberal trap.

[Serpent]

MerryPrankster, that's actually very sad. Thanks for the info though.

Chingei, I have no idea why I keep responding to you and your pointless comments and infantile insults, but I'm always prepared to have a go.

What would the typical liberal trap be?

[Merryprankster]

Not sad, necessarily, just a little different. On the other hand,the politics are no different from any other democratic system--that's the way the cookie crumbles, I'm afraid.

I'm less concerned with the political costs than the real costs. And I think the costs of backing a treaty as toothless and unuseful as the kyoto protocols are very real indeed.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Serpent

What would the typical liberal trap be?

that's the point.

[Serpent]

Chingei, I refer you to my previous comment:



Originally posted by Serpent

If you want to make yourself sound important and clever, Chingei, try to back up your facetious comments with something akin to an argument. Otherwise, shut the **** up and let the rest of us get on with the discussion.



The key bit in there now is shut the **** up

You're not clever and you're not helping.


Merryprankster. It is sad, however, that the nature of life these days means it's easier to say 'Get stuffed' to a well-intentioned idea than it is to do something positive about it or to actively suggest viable alternatives.

And I still think that the US does have a responsibility to set a better example. It's a shame that the ideal of freedom and justice for all doesn't extend beyond the borders of the country.

[Merryprankster]

I really don't think politics are much different than they were several thousand years ago.

Better example how--where should we focuse our efforts?

How does Freedom and Liberty and Justice for all fit in here, exactly?

[Serpent]

Freedom and justice for those countries with problems exacerbated by US foreign policy. The US helping out if they have good oil fields or strategic borders, not because they deserve freedom and justice. The idea that liberty, freedom and justice is every Americans right, no matter the cost to anyone/anywhere else.

However, you are obviously far better informed on the details of American politics and certainly on enviromentalism than I am, so this discussion could easily begin to go in circles. After all, I'm not the one paid the money to find solutions. That's what the governments of the world should be doing. And the biggest, most powerful governments, that have the biggest impact globally in lots of ways, should be trying the hardest to find those solutions instead of ignoring the problems.

That's all I'm trying to say.



I really don't think politics are much different than they were several thousand years ago.


That's kinda scary!

[Merryprankster]

Serpent, when we do what you describe below:


Freedom and justice for those countries with problems exacerbated by US foreign policy. The US helping out if they have good oil fields or strategic borders, not because they deserve freedom and justice. The idea that liberty, freedom and justice is every Americans right, no matter the cost to anyone/anywhere else.

We're told we're interfering in the internal matters of other nations. Example--Iraq has Saddam Hussein in charge and the man is a dictator--he is against, liberty, freedom and justice. How do you think it would be received if the US just rolled right in there in the name of those inalienable rights? What if we assassinated Castro or invaded China in the interests of spreading those rights? Heck Castro threatened to close down the US interest section in Havana just a few weeks ago because we were giving shortwave radios to cubans!

The problem I see with your points of view is one of viability, not ideals. What you are espousing is great--but not necessarily workable. The other thing I see is a lack of understanding about who drives what. I'm not a marxist (classic sense of the word, not in the communist/socialist sense) by any stretch of the imagination, but you have to understand something--the real drive behind research is NOT governments--its industry.

Here's something for you--did you realize that governments have next to no effect in currency speculation anymore? It used to be if a government wanted to raise or lower the price of its currency it would buy up or sell its currency, respectively, to make that happen. Governments can't do that any more, because the market has too much volume and the government contribution would be just a large drop in an even bigger bucket.

As far as the politics thing, it's not scary at all. Politics derive from fundamentally human drives. And those drives haven't changed all that much in the past few thousand years.

[Internal Boxer]

Observation: The west has exacerbated the situation in the middle East, back in the 70's the USA armed Iran against the precieved threat of USSR, a few years later Iran was considered a potential enemy with their fundamental attitudes, so they armed Irag to oppose Iran, and here we are today in a mess created by short sightedness.


I know hindsight is a wonderful thing but history is littered with such examples it is worrying to know these irresponsible powerful few men have this power that they wield like a baby's rattle with no fore though of the consequences of their actions. Us Brits have screwed up the world in times of the Empire it looks like the USA have decided to be just as stupid as we were.
:rolleyes:

[guohuen]

Remember, many of us are the offspring of the religious fanatics or deptors that left or were kicked off the island.

[dezhen2001]

LOL! and how many of them were either Scottish or Irish heritage? (strange that) :D

david

[Braden]

"It is sad, however, that the nature of life these days means it's easier to say 'Get stuffed' to a well-intentioned idea than it is to do something positive about it or to actively suggest viable alternatives."

Funny. Me saying exactly this is how this conversation started.

"After all, I'm not the one paid the money to find solutions. That's what the governments of the world should be doing."

The purpose of government was never "to make everything allright." It does not have the tools to do this, and fails miserably when it tries.

It's funny... I recieved several months ago an information booklet from a leftist friend of mine commenting on the various evils of McDonalds. Among the allegations was a discussion of the charity efforts of the organization, which were dismissed as only political posturing and insufficient in scope. My only reply was to ask this friend how much of his salary last year went towards charity. (The answer was none) He didn't seem to understand the relevance. I'm reminded of this now as I wonder, is it a fundamental belief if this neo-[pseudo?]leftist movement to believe that solutions, whatever they may be, are always someone else's responsability?

[Serpent]

So it's basically down to those in power to make the changes as they have the ability to do so. From what Merry and others have said, that's industry. The days of the global corporation eclipsing all goverment authority are not too far away! (Of course, this is not news really!)

However, as corporations are driven primarily by profits, there is likely to be little effort on their part to do good when it might compromise their profit margin. So the only way to get them to take action is by affecting their profits in other ways and that's where consumer power comes in.

Which takes us back to the point that people in general have to force change by their actions. For example, insisting on new fuel technology rather than buying the latest V8 supercar for $50,000.

So how can we make that kind of change happen?

[Braden]

Global corporation should never eclipse government authority, because the two should deal with different topics.

As for allegations of 'corporations' not 'doing good' if it hurts their profit margins, I'll repeat: How much of your income went to charity last year?

[Serpent]

Well, personally I always try to support as much charity as I can, being a member of various charities and giving to collections, etc. as often as I can afford. But that's actually beside the point. I don't have such a great impact on the enviroment as McD's or Nike.

However, if I buy stuff from them, I'm supporting their damage. Those are actually two companies that I boycott, especially McD's as there's nothing actually good for you about eating that crap anyway!

However, consumer power (in the way of boycotts and things) can help corps. to change their ways. The only thing they'll listen to is things that affect their profit margins.

[Braden]

I'm not sure where you got the idea I'm against consumer action.

And I don't see how your contributions are beside the point.

[Serpent]

Well, my contributions are not beside the point in general. I'm talking about in relation to consumer action. My contributions are something else in addition to that.

[Braden]

Aha. If you'll re-read my post, you'll note I didn't bring them up with regards to consumer action. Sorry for the confusion.

[Serpent]

Thas coo'.

So, assuming it's agreed that consumer action is one of the prime ways to instigate change, what's the best approach to consumer action?

[Merryprankster]

The best way to adjust consumer action is to give them something they need that works better than what came before, at a reasonable cost.

Synthetic Rubber vs. Natural Rubber, for instance... Hence my insistance on research, research and more research to get better energy technology up and running.

Energy tech is the kind of thing, like biotech, that has tremendous spill over effect into every other sector.

[Serpent]

Great! But we're not all engineers and biologists. What can the general consumer do to support these companies that will give us the better, cheaper alternatives?

[Merryprankster]

Buy their products :)

Look-if enough people like the electric/gasoline hybrid cars, they buy em and more are made. You can also try and elect lawmakers with a commitment to greener techs.

But nobody is going to buy a pain in the ass car or a pain in the ass piece of equipment or something that costs 3 times as much and works only 90% as well.

[Braden]

Actually, I would say step one is stop whining about things of which you know nothing. This isn't directed at anyone here.

Generally, speaking the public is very big on telling scientists and engineers what they should/shouldn't be doing, and very small on informing themselves so as to have reasonable opinions in this regard.

This has a huge impact on what work gets done, on a variety of levels. Government funding is extremely fickle to popular opinion, and basically dictates what work gets done, particularly with respect to basic research. Self funding and private funding is extremely difficult (again, especially for basic research), and the latter has alot of difficult issues associated with it. On another level, scientists and engineers are people, and what they choose to work on is a direct function of how society percieves it, how society percieved it when they were growing up, etc.

This gets back again to my original point. People are holding back progress by suscribing vehemently to views which they never bothered to research.

Step one in consumer action is educating yourself coupled with the realization that it's ok to not hold a judgement upon (and especially not be vocal about a judgement upon) something you're ignorant about.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Serpent

However, consumer power (in the way of boycotts and things) can help corps. to change their ways. The only thing they'll listen to is things that affect their profit margins.

I should apologize for the pleasure I'm taking in the realization that you are, and will continue to be, spinning your little wheels going nowhere (but with oh-so-much passion!)

your self-importance notwithstanding, you are like a scene from Cool Hand luke. ("what's your dirt doing in the warden's hole, boy?")

[Serpent]

Chingei, I thought I told you to shut the **** up.

[Internal Boxer]

Resorting to abuse?? tut tut mi lad.

Chill Serpie, have a beer and don't take things to heart.

:D

[KC Elbows]

Merryprankster said:

"But nobody is going to buy a pain in the ass car or a pain in the ass piece of equipment or something that costs 3 times as much and works only 90% as well."

If that were true, we would all be eating "Fruitee-ohs" instead of "Fruit Loops".:p

[ewallace]

/ewallace raises hand in guilt.


Yeah. And I wouldn't have bought camaros and firebirds since I was 16. The proper term would have been "no intelligent individual".

[KC Elbows]

I think we can all agree to keep intelligent individuals out of this discussion. We've managed thus far.;)

Hang on, I'm gonna go have some Cocoa-Roos and Rice Crispeeoes.

[Braden]

I lived off of Fruitee-ohs for ages. Most noname and bulk cereals taste like smut, but for some reason fruitee-ohs rock. They're so much better than fruit loops. Seriously... go try them. I mean; they're no Boo Berry. But they're pretty **** good.

[Braden]

Holy **** do they turn your tongue raunchy colors though.

Wanna freak out your friend / significant other / kidnapped child? Grind up some fruitee-ohs and pepto bismal chewable tablets and put the mixture in their mouth when they're asleep. Nasty!

[guohuen]

TMI!!!:eek:

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Internal Boxer
Resorting to abuse?? tut tut mi lad.

Chill Serpie, have a beer and don't take things to heart.

:D

Serpie?! :eek:

I'm actually quite chilled. He doesn't make me angry, I'm just sick of reading his crap.

Guohen. What's TMI?

[guohuen]

Too much information.

[Serpent]

Aha! With you.

Agreed!

;)

[KC Elbows]

Anyway, back to fruityos, those things expand to the size of a flotation device after like 15 minutes in milk. It's actually pretty d@mn scary.

[GeneChing]

Mind your language everyone. I know that a lot of you have figured out how to get around the censors. Now let's keep it civil. After all, this is a family show.

FWIW, I drive a Hybrid and I love it. They are great cars.

Rogue: Hart was the rudimentary drummer (military style) and a judo champ. But he was more the percussionist that the metronome.

[guohuen]

Mr. Diesels original design for his compression ignition engine was in fact designed to burn peanut oil. After his plane went down in the atlantic this was promptly forgotten and petroleum oil was used instead. With simple modifications corn oil with a touch of alcohol can be used in any modern diesel engine.

[guohuen]

Hey Gene. Ever read the interview with Mickey were he talks about the Tibetan skull drums someone gave him? He said they made him feel ill so he gave them to a museum.:p

[Braden]

I eat my fruitee-ohs dry.

My old roomie put milk on them though. I admit, it's a remarkable process. Within an hour, it becomes a ****genous, foamy mixture. A truly unholy looking ****genous, foamy mixture.

Who would think such goodness can so easily become so vile?

[SDriver]

Anyone else ever set their coffeemaker up to make ramen noodles?

[Braden]

Man do I get sick of you upper class folk going on about your fancy-schmancy water and your fancy-schmancy milk. Oh lookee me, I'm so rich I can mix two foodstuffs together! Well la-dee-da.

Well, when I was young, we ate Ramen dry, straight out of the pack! None of your fancy-schmancy softening agents. We were men, we had molars! We counted it lucky enough that we got those flavor packs to shake through the noodles. Only, most of them we used to feed the pigs. We'd have to drag them ten miles on our backs waist-deep in snow, cause that's where the pigs were kept. And we liked it that way, godsarnit!

[Serpent]

Sorry Gene. That was me you were talking about huh! ;) Notice how a polite word has a much better effect than censorship! There's a lesson to be learned there.

And in other news, what in the living Sam hell has happened to this thread?! It's got to be a record. Starts of with a rant about kung fu guys being considered hippies, it moved on to a very interesting debate on enviromentalism and ended up talking about some bizarre cereal that I've never heard of.

Well done, everybody! Sterling effort!

[@PLUGO]

well, to keep pace with the theme of this thred... Shouldn't the topic of cereal vear into a discourse of . . .
. . .

. . .

. . .

. . .

. . .

. . .

. . .

. . .

. .

.

GRANOLA!?!?!?

[guohuen]

Granola. When you remove the fruits and the nuts, all that's left are the flakes. Sorta like hippy kung fu.:p

[GeneChing]

guohuen: I did talk to Mickey about that a little, but it didn't make it into my interview. Mickey is drum collector - his collection was recently on display at SFO. Apparently he got this damaru from Ownsley (a.k.a. Bear, a famous acid dealer) and it gave everyone a real bad vibe. Mickey eventually returned it to some Tibetan monks who were passing through. The told him that the power of the drum was that it "woke the dead" a typical trippy reply for a grateful dead member.

serpent: We should all make an effort to be polite. Martial etiquette - It's the warrior way. Besides, I'd go nuts if I tried to censor every cuss word on this forum. Much better to correct it at the source then delete it in the post.

Fruiteohs rock! My daughter loves 'em. It's so hard to find cereal that aren't packed with sugar nowadays.

And I've eaten ramen dry back in my college daze. Did a lot of things I'm not too proud of back then...

Hmm, I eat fruiteohs, drive a hybrid, have long hair and worked for the grateful dead. This is my thread, man. I live here.

Q: How do you tell if a deadhead has been at your house?
A: He's still there.

[Serpent]

OK, please help me understand. What exactly is a fruiteoh? And is it prononuced fruit-ee-oh?

And an American food not packed with sugar!? Are you sure?

[chingei]

Originally posted by Serpent
Chingei, I thought I told you to shut the **** up.

hawhawhawhaw!

careful, you'll get froth on your new designer tye-dye!

[chingei]

Originally posted by Serpent
OK, please help me understand. What exactly is a fruiteoh? And is it prononuced fruit-ee-oh?



same as the nickname your 'partner' gave you? how nice.

[guohuen]

You like punishment, don't you.:rolleyes:

[Serpent]

Chingei, you really think you know me, huh? Think you've got me all figured out, don't you.

Good for you.

[ewallace]

I'm really tired of SAE 5W-30. It's so much harder to find than a 10W-30. Stinkin Hippies.

[GeneChing]

It's a line of fruit sweetned cereals. They have a whole bunch of stuff - gink-ohs is one that supposed to help your memory. We hippies always have probelms with memory.

[ewallace]

What did you say gene?


fruit-ee-oh are generic fruit loops. More or less.

[GeneChing]

But there is a specific line of cereals bearing the name fruit-ee-ohs now. They are basically fruit sweetened fruit loops. I just threw our box away because ants got in it, but next time I get a box I'll post more details here for you.

See this is a typcial hippie strategy, adopt something that most might think is derogatory (like the term fruit-ee-oh) and turn it around into something positive (like a cereal my kid can eat and not get all hopped up on a sugar rush forcing me to spend the next few hours just chasing her around to keep her out of harm's way.) Argueably, it doesn't always work, but it's parallel to taiji tactics. Wasn't that the point of this thread? Case and point is this very point. ;)

[KC Elbows]

Wow, nice flow, Gene. From fruit-ee-ohs right back to hippies, tying it into tai chi, and we're back at the first post.

I am humbled.:)

[ewallace]

Stinkin hippies.

[Serpent]

Dayumm, Gene, good work!

Gene is the Uber-Hippy!

[GeneChing]

You guys gotta understand, I've spent a decade and a half talking hippies down off acid trips. This a little jedi mind trick called Ouroboros. That's the serpent biting it's tail, or in this case, tale (right, Serpent?) It's based on perceiving the totality of the given moment, then finding the subtle connection, and removing the mental partition to abruptly expose it. Like reinterpreting a push from your opponent into a pull from you. I often use it to stun trippers, works like a boot the the head, sort of like psychedelic psychic psparring.

If that's too heady, we can go back to fruit-ee-ohs....

BTW, has anyone read Zig Zag Zen? http://www.zigzagzen.com/ I haven't yet, but I'm thinking it might be next up in the queue after I finish Marcus Garvey, Life and Lessons...

[Serpent]

Originally posted by GeneChing
You guys gotta understand, I've spent a decade and a half talking hippies down off acid trips. This a little jedi mind trick called Ouroboros. That's the serpent biting it's tail, or in this case, tale (right, Serpent?)

I'm sure I don't know what you mean! ;)

[GeneChing]

Hippie Tai Chi should be serpent and crane, well, we have our seprent. Should our crane be Toucan Sam? I think not. If memory serves, the fruit-ee-oh mascot is a cat. If you check out the next issue of Kungfu Qigong (Sep/Oct, it'll be on stands in about 2 weeks) you'll find that some believe that Taiji was actually based on a fight between a snake and a cat, not a crane. Snake and cat are symbolic of dragon and tiger. Mind you, this all went to print weeks ago, long before we even got started on this thread. Just another little reality tweak for those who still doubt the power of hippie tai chi.

BTW, there is also an article by me about the fighting smoking pipe - and pipes are something very dear to hippies...

[guohuen]

Are you refering to Indian tomahawk or club pipes?

[KC Elbows]

Alright, serious hippy issue here.

Paper or plastic?

Sure, paper means trees, but plastic does not biodegrade, and it takes more plastic bags to hold the same amount of groceries as a few paper bags.

[RAF]

I wanted to throw this in for discussion and a bit of fun:

_____________________________________________
Hippie Taiji On Screen--1969
1st time I watched Easy Rider since it was in the theater.

Hopper and Fonda are at the commune. Look what is playing in the background during the stage shot.

On a similar note, Wave Hands Like Clouds Tai Chi Chuan by Li Po and Ananda, 1975: 1st hippie taiji book?

What happened to the authors?
_______________________________________

I might be a bit hesitant to throw the baby out with the bath water.

If you read between the lines, you might find some pearls in those old hippie taiji books and stuff:

Al Huang, Embrace the Tiger, Return to the Mountain
Alan Watts with Al Huang, The Water Course Way

[guohuen]

Paper please.

[GeneChing]

guohuen: Actually no, but originally I was planning to work native american pipes into the piece. It's about Chinese fighting pipes. It is a piece that I've had on the back burner for several years, ever since I acquired an antique Chinese fighting pipe. Since our cover master is depicted with a pipe, I went for it with this upcoming issue, but since I already wrote A LOT in this issue (it's a major research release for me) the pipe peice was shortened a lot. Hope you enjoy it.

kc: Paper. It makes better garbage bags for the kitchen.

raf: I have this great old book on Dao-yin that's super hippie. It goes off on these rants about 'nam and stuff. I also have the Kungfu exercise book, which is a classic trade paperback complete with dudes in bell bottoms doing eight section brocade. But my all time favorite slipped through my fingers at a used bookstore, that was Honor Blackmans' book on self defense. She was ***** Galore in Goldfinger, and came out with this hilarious book on self defense where she was in a period cat suit ala Austen Powers. There were some great books back then, so dated now, but very interesting to see how a lot of the early stuff was initially translated.

[MonkeySlap Too]

KC - don't you realize that thousands of little plastic animals are slaughtered every year to make plastic bags? Have you no heart?

[KC Elbows]

Hey, I go with paper.

Plastic is for lazy baggers.

[GeneChing]

Our forum censor subroutine is so funny - like ***** Galore is a bad name. ;) I wish I could reprogram it so it censored with stuff like #!%&! instead of *****.

[KC Elbows]

Gene Ching, does your mother know you talk that way?:D

[guohuen]

Or, "Do you kiss your Mother with that mouth?"

[@PLUGO]

Alright, serious hippy issue here.

Paper or plastic?


Oh c'mon... everyone know the ture Hippie solution is a 100% hemp shopping Bag!!!

Or at least a basket!!!

:rolleyes: &$#!+*#$^@!@!!!:rolleyes:

[Serpent]

Hey Gene

***** Galore.

Just for you! ;)

[GeneChing]

What I really want is Honor...

[Serpent]

Don't we all! ;)

[TaoBoy]

Will this thread never die?

My head hurts...

[Serpent]

Not if you keep posting in it.

Hippy!

;)