Useless moves or techniques or stances, please.

[No_Know]

People seem to regard at least some things as having low functionality~. Please name some of these. Under the thought that everything could be significant in Kung-Fu, I would look for the value of whatever supposedly useless Kung-Fu techniques you all mention.

Thighs parallel or low horse-riding stance was called not mobile. I looked at it and saw three types of movement. I noticed three types of ways to kick to hit. And that I could fight with both arms equally left of center to right of center covering a range of about 165° to 180°. Also, that when in a low to thighs parallel horse-riding stance people couldn't come in to me from the sides of my legs. With good standing or durable legs it would be not easy to sweep me. And the groin is defensible.

This looking into was Fun for me. And I now have more ways to develop myself.

As I No_Know I look for your help to name Kung-Fu techniques--moves-stances... that you find to be useless in a fight or insignificant-ish.

Pre-wise, thank you all.

[Unstoppable]

i Would not want To fight from Low Horse Stance. mayeb its Goiod for training but to a fight You could get some Guy kick you in the leg if Hes at the side and it Take too long to shift Weiught and counter or if in the Middle WHOAH big Kick to thwe 'Nads and you would Be Flattened Man!!!! What do You think?

[Helicopter]

There's a move in a form I do, which I think "eh!?!"

Basically it's an leopard fist strike with the palm to the top of an opponents head.

I'm thinking there must be some as yet unknown dim-mak application?

jpcm

[Stacey]

that move is used a lot in nhb, only not with a leapard fist. Same idea/angle etc. Its hard to telegraph. JKD does a circular punch for the same purpose.

[dezhen2001]

Unstoppable: I once played with a hung gar/streetfighting guy who used to fight from a horse stance. Kicking him in the legs doesn't work, believe me ;) Also he was VERY fast and mobile because of all his stance training... so i wouldn't knock it just coz u don't use it... :)

david

[Unstoppable]

okay Dezhen I Believe you but I just dont see How it could work

FOR EXAMPLE

If a Muay Thai Box has His legs to on the Side he will Get kick alot! In the leg!!!!!! (This is just If his Legs is a Bit side on Like a Box not a Thai Box FOR EXAMPLE) SO I dont Know how You could Overcome in a Wight Distebution/Side Onness from Horse Stance????? What technix Did he Utilise to Avoid the Kick???

I would Licke to know (AM NOT FLAMING) because I like Horse stance for Many POWERFUL tehcnix but am Scared to use it because One time I got Kicked in the legs so Bad it made me fall and I dont want That to Happen AGAI!!!!! (it sucked) :eek: :(

[No_Know]

Helicopter,
The leopard fist to the forehead could be just that. I heard it was a very tough part of the head and that someone could hurt their hand/nuckles on one's forehead. But above or below that tough spot might be weaker. Also, the area above the eyebrows but below the hairline (not too high:-) ) seems weakish to my knocking of it. Also, the leopard fist to the nosebridge seems a possiblly devestating blow. Trained nuckles would be even more significant, Please note that whoever was to be expert at any style would eventually train their body weapons to more fully execute the techniques. And in perhaps at least some instances the basic training or repetitions, trained the necessary bodyweapons, even though no mention is given as to that that's what's going on.

Unstoppable, the stance is low enough that I can block it with a flat palm. Also, my lowered height and legs shut off access to the groin when the opponent is on the outside of my feet. My feet parallel.

If my legs are trained enough I dont mind a kick to the leg. My leg has resistance to being pressed in. Also, a kick to the knee can be trapped with a fold and kneel.

[dezhen2001]

Unstoppable: he didn't do anyting to stop the kick, my kick did NOTHING to his stance,and that was when i was training Muay Thai... maybe u should train more horse or practise footwork?, coz i like to move out of the way :p

david

[Helicopter]

NK
The strike is actually a downward slap (for want of a better word) to the crown. I know there is dim-mak point there, but to me, even if there is good reason to attack there, it leaves you very open.

jpcm

[No_Know]

Helicopter,

It seems as though openings can be closed from the other side. And if the technique seems to just stop after the slap~ one should be able to block with the slapping hand or move out of the way even If it's not in the form. It might be supposed to be a finishing move. The form presents a way to use the techniques. You have to stay alive long enough to use them. The form is examples. Before and after a set of techniques in perhaps several forms is Whatever. It might be interesting to see if you could find a technique from an earlier form or from that same form that covers where the end of the leopard fist stike seems lacking. And when striking be willing to withdraw, to defend. Perhaps.

The head is muchly filled with liquid I comprehend. The reverberation from a trained hand through the hardness of the skull into a liquid might shock the brain into a malfunction or disruption.

Merely offering some thoughts. No offense intended.

[rogue]

Are you guys saying that you fight from a set stance rather than use different stances to help execute techniques? I've been taught to use as neuteral a stance as possible to start and then use a front, back, horse, etc... when executing a technique and then move. So while a deep horse isn't practical to fight from it's very useful when executing a technique where I have to drop my center, like the popular rear bear hug escape, or being pushed from the side.

I've been chopped to the top of the head and it didn't feel very pleasant.

[shaolinboxer]

If you practice something long enough that seems to have no practical value, you will inevitably find a use for it.

[old jong]

Some things are for application and some other are for training/conditionning. A good idea is to use them in the proper context.;)

[No_Know]

Alright! Shaolinboxer.

Rogue,
Not can speak for the others, I prefer to fight from a single stance to see how it holds up.~ It's more cool to fight like you were just standing there. But I like to fight with the least resources against greater odds. The more I can do with the least the better I could do with more. So (needle-and-thread), stuff like fighting with only one technique or not moving or while seated or on one leg or from low horse-riding stance...I like these. I think it develops me.

It is better to use a thing where it is appropriate.

[Helicopter]

NK
Thanks for the feedback, definately no offence taken. I hold with idea that everything in the forms has meaning, it's just with some moves the use is not as immediate.

I'll have to ask my instructor if that move has a particular dim-mak application. The cupping of the leopard-fist makes quite a popping sound when used in that way, so it might support your brain-reverb theory.

The strike is repeated in a partner form and is applied as an attacking strike so thats how it's meant to be used.

jpcm

[No_Know]

Alright, Helicopter! :-)

[greendragon]

I like to go into horse stance to bait the opponent into kicking where i am waiting in ambush to destroy his leg.
leopard; center line of skull is a strike point as the skull is in plates and there is a fisure or separation there. most people are not used to a strike from above, not difficult to pull off.

[BrentCarey]

The horse stance in all its variations is a fine stance for conditioning and combat. If a person's stance work is weak, he/she should stay out of it, especially low stances. So, you see many inexperienced martial artists learn stances in class, then throw them out the window during sparring, and start bouncing around like a western boxer.

Before the hate mail starts flying, I am not specifically knocking this approach, it is a contradiction to most Chinese styles. I teach to never move a foot (or anything for that matter) without a very specific purpose. Economy of motion is key for several reasons.

If a person has strong stance work, the horse stance is a fine "center point", the lower the better (within reason). I find I can move in and out of the stance with ease. I can easily unload the leg closest to the opponent to avoid a sweep or kick. The stance also tends to hold the opponent at a longer distance than some other stances.

The problem most people have with the combat application of the horse stance is similar to the problem most people have with Chinese MA in general.

Let's say two identical people begin training at the same time - one in Muay Thai (for example), and the other in Taijiquan (for example). They spend exactly the same amount of time training in their respective styles. 6 months later, I would much rather have to fight the Taiji practitioner than the Muay Thai practitioner. This is because it is easier to become effective sooner in Muay Thai. How's that for a generalization?

However, 3 years later it might be a very different story. Definitely, after 10 years my money would be on the Taiji practitioner. This is because the Taiji practitioner will have a broader foundation, more techniques to pull from, and a less linear approach that is harder to respond to. (This will make me popular with the Muay Thai people.)

My point is that just because a technique (or set of techniques) is harder to master, it is not necessarily ineffective, but it may take much more work to be effective with it.

I tell prospective students that ask me to compare the effectiveness of kung fu to other styles such as TKD or Goju Ryu (both popular in this area). Generally I tell them that it depends on how long and hard they want to train. If they want to quick results and everything to make sense early on, then train in some other style. If they have patience and are willing to train hard for several years, kung fu will take them well beyond those other styles.


Peace,

Brent Carey

[SevenStar]

"If they have patience and are willing to train hard for several years, kung fu will take them well beyond those other styles. "

How's that for a generalization. there are too many factors that come into play for that to be guaranteed.

Also, the number of techniques is not necessarily a factor either. I'll use an example I used in another thread - judo. there are like 64 different throwing/takedown techs in judo, but of those 64, how many do you think are used by a practitioner on a regular basis? the person will not be as proficient with the ones that aren't used as much as he will be with the ones he uses frequently.

the same can be said of CMA - how often do you use a bear claw? when you have to defend yourself, you will use the techs that you train the most, regardless of how many you know - and depending on how well you deal with situations like that, you may not even use the techs you train on a regular basis.

that being said, "If they have patience and are willing to train hard for several years, kung fu will take them well beyond those other styles." doesn't necessarily hold true. and I won't even start on other factors, like natural aptitude and the quality of the school the student is training at...

[No_Know]

Hi Brent Carey,

I'm hoping my legs are good enough to withstand several, people's level of ability at sweeping them. If I "unloaded" My "front" leg while in a low horse-riding stance, I think that I would find it most valueable to use the "front" leg in a sidekick, Tiger-tail kick, back kick or heel to the chin (or lower).

Equal time in. Six months. I No_Know. Do all Mauy Thai practitioners get the shin development to kick through a bananatree (Or whatever plant that was in Kickboxer (Jean-Claude VanDamme~)? If not, It's not necessarilly as bad. They would be aggressive and have alot of commitment attacks. I presume that I could use their commitment and over commitment (inexperience) (but six months training Muay Thai does not mean no years of training in something else or experience at fighting situations) to off balance them to trap, to fall,. Also while a T'ai Chi Ch'uaner won't necessarily have developed Great Ch'i manipulation, they would have tactical straregies that are in the forms. Also, is T'ai Chi Ch'uan useable to initiate an attack? It seems weird to think of it as come-here, let's fight. Sort of thing.

Since the attitudes of the two styles is different--attacking/no damage, least damage, it seem only a question of how you'll fare against the Muay Thai-er the only one of the two who would attack. I certainly wouldn't care to attack.~ :-)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by No_Know

I'm hoping my legs are good enough to withstand several, people's level of ability at sweeping them. If I "unloaded" My "front" leg while in a low horse-riding stance, I think that I would find it most valueable to use the "front" leg in a sidekick, Tiger-tail kick, back kick or heel to the chin (or lower).

[b]If you are in a low horse stance, why hook kick to the chin? A hook kick of any height is not feasible from a low horse, IMO.

Do all Mauy Thai practitioners get the shin development to kick through a bananatree (Or whatever plant that was in Kickboxer (Jean-Claude VanDamme~)?

No.

[gazza99]

"Since the attitudes of the two styles is different--attacking/no damage, least damage,"

Please dont generalize, not all taijiquan practitioners are minimal/no harm type people. See hippy thread...

Thanks
Gary:D

[LEGEND]

Sevenstar...no...u can get the same type of shin slower but safer by kicking a leather bag.

[SevenStar]

yeah, no doubt, but not everyone's shin will be as hard as the movie made us perceive van damme and tong po's were. The conditioning is unavoidable in MT, but not eveyone's legs will be conditioned to the same degree. Remember - Van Damme actually broke the tree... since that was what No_Know used as an example, I replied the way I did - Not everyone will be able to kick through a bananna tree

[PLCrane]

I thought a palm strike to the top of the head was one of the few moves forbidden in Kuo Shu tournements. When the head gets hit, the brain bounces off the opposite side of the skull. A concussion of the brain stem would be really bad. That's where basic functions like respiration are controlled.

I've learned lots of moves that seemed useless. Some of them are for conditioning, some of them are for learning to move different ways, or, "just in case you ever end up in this position," and some have applications that aren't obvious, like apparent strikes that are really throws or chin-na.

If you look for stuff like this, you can keep learning new things from your old forms.

[Unstoppable]

hmm this Is an Exelent Thread. Perhaps I should abandon Training with Use Low Kicks to the Leg since it Sounds like they Have no effect On People who train properly.

"my kick did NOTHING to his stance,and that was when i was training Muay Thai"

if It Happens Like this I guess Low Kicks are virtually Useless (At Least Thai Style) - Why are they So Praised by the So-Called MMAS I wonder? (Hehe I guess this Isnt the First time they Got something Wrong) ;)

[snappingknee]

I've taken Wah Lum KF for awhile and the 2 useless moves that come to mind are

1) The Iron bridge (bent over backwards)- Yeah ok I know it's primarily for flexibility, but I've heard this exercise in reference to avoiding a kick. I thought the point was NO wasted movement. To bend over backwards is just silly from every practical standpoint.

2) The broadsword flower - wasted movement and takes your weapon down from the en guard position. You don't see people who fence do a whole lotta flowering - hell even the name itself implies what it is, looks pretty neat and that's about it. Once again I can see the benefits of this movement when it is used as an exercise.

So how bout it anyone pull off any of these in an actual altercation?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Unstoppable
hmm this Is an Exelent Thread. Perhaps I should abandon Training with Use Low Kicks to the Leg since it Sounds like they Have no effect On People who train properly.

"my kick did NOTHING to his stance,and that was when i was training Muay Thai"

if It Happens Like this I guess Low Kicks are virtually Useless (At Least Thai Style) - Why are they So Praised by the So-Called MMAS I wonder? (Hehe I guess this Isnt the First time they Got something Wrong) ;)

The best way to determine that is to feel it. Trust me, they didn't get anything wrong. If the kick was useless, thai boxers would have abandoned it a LONG time ago as it would have served them no purpose in battle or in the ring.

Also, don't think that because you train low kicks that you are training thai kicks...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by snappingknee

2) The broadsword flower - wasted movement and takes your weapon down from the en guard position. You don't see people who fence do a whole lotta flowering - hell even the name itself implies what it is, looks pretty neat and that's about it. Once again I can see the benefits of this movement when it is used as an exercise.

So how bout it anyone pull off any of these in an actual altercation?

My understanding of the flower is that it it is a series of rapid blocks followed by a strike. also it serves to confuse an opponent.

[dezhen2001]

Unstoppable: All i said was that my kick didn't work in that situation. Yes i was training MT and had done for a year or so. That doesn't mean the technique is wrong, just that i couldn't get it to work because my friend sunk in to his horse stance...

So many generalizations here it's shocking :p

david

[HuangKaiVun]

ANY move can be adapted to kung fu usage if one thinks long and hard about it enough.

Actually, the broadsword flower is the IDEAL way of training combat application of this weighted curved weapon. I'm assuming that the broadsword flower is a figure 8 spinning of the broadsword in front of you.

The broadsword is a curved heavy weapon that is not easily jerked around or sent in different directions. If one is to utilize it, he needs either momentum to power the strikes or the reverse hand to brace the blade in a nonswinging manner.

The figure 8, when separated out into its more basic components, features cuts to all 4 corners. Actually, the application can be threaded out to an infinite number of possible strikes and counterstrikes. The basic jing of the broadsword flower teaches a guy how to cut in all directions by using the natural weight of the broadsword in a wrist-controlling efficient manner.

Criminals armed with knives often work in prison on how to cut a guy who has grabbed his knife-wielding hand. By using that exact same broadsword flower, they slice open the grabbing forearm of the opponent.

[No_Know]

Generalizations can help one understand the specifics, theoretically. Yet Knowing it to be a generalization it seems that many hold it to be absolutely true in All cases. By the nature of a generalization one perhaps should be open for the occasional variations to the standard generalizations on perhaps almost any topic.

Unstopable,
The low kick no good? It can jam and shock. It can cripple (at least long enough to end the fight). It as many things if not everything has it's uses. Not affecting the person with Your kick, dezhen2001 :-), merely says keep working on it or that the kickee had good legs or knew how to use the stance or knew how to use breathing...don't give up. One example should seldom be the generalization. More at the variation to the stereotype that if looked at can broaden one's understanding of the True nature of a thing. You low-down Kicker you...Keep at it. It has significant value.

The Iron bridge: when you are less than expert at it it seems good on slow less than best flexible kickers to the upper torso or head. This looks like a set-up technique. Avoiding only to spring load aleg for a risng groin or chin shot. In Sme movies from the seventies or eighties with the name Shao-lin in them there were shots of supposed monk types doing weapons drills and handset forms and exercises. One exercise had one bendover backwardsthen roll on hands (sometimes head if not only head) and feet to form the reverse arch bent forewardthen roll in the same direction into a backbend and this continued. This seems an evasion technique and exercise to strengthen and increase or maintain flexibility.

Snapping Knee,
This broadsword flower seem to perhaps be a series of parries(deflections) Some attacks stab continuously. Backing youuntil you don't parry or trip. Then you get stabbed spear technique seems notorious for repeated thrustings. My mention has the technique as blocking/deflecting going backwards. HuangKaiVun's post seemed to talk about the same thought on;ly going forwards. Forwards it is a relentless attack. If it is how I am thinking it to be.

SevenStar,
""If they have patience and are willing to train hard for several years, kung fu will take them well beyond those other styles. "

How's that for a generalization. there are too many factors that come into play for that to be guaranteed."

How about, Kung-Fu Can take them well beyond those other styles? Under a concept that Kung-Fu encompasses a variety of techniques that address broad and specific situations, where the others have locked (limited technique quantity (all of which have variations...~From one the ten-thousand things~) I've been lead to understand that there are styles that have weaklnesses. If they can't draw upon a well of resources such as Kung-Fu has then ginen the absolute Kung-Fu welltrained and understood can go well beyond the others. While by what I've put here, there might not be any thing I wouldn't consider Kung-Fu (something done well), not everything is Kung-Fu~ (fighting styles~).

Hook kick: I No_Know that we are on the same page. You say hook and I wonder. I say heel to the chin or lower-a straight line shot from floor to contact area. My thouight was to mostly use hands to fight (knee or leg shift (feet in place) to hit or deflect near-by legs). I wouldn't Know from practical~ I merely threw-in a possibility of could do. Although, I would like to use it. I presume that your thighs tend to be tight and sweeping high kicks can't be done by you without your knee bent because your legs have straight-out inflexibility some. Not as offensive intended as it might have come-off.

Number of techniques: You might not use very many. But the one you learn that don't get tried serve to develop you to better do the ones you diduse. Also It broadens your conceptualizaion on how you Could be attacked. Some of these you don't use might have come frome exhaustive reasearch of surviving. Today we use a limited variety of attacks but if We trained for centuries We might come-up with Greater variety than we currently use. Someone already did that centuries ago~. I prefer to keep it incase I don't Know all there is to fighting and getting attacked and capabilities of movement and defending strategies... If I get more skilled I might understand what was useless to my think because I didn't Know any better. So (needle -and-thread), I learn the so-called useless because I No_Know.
It seems that if one looks with intention, well into perhaps almost anything, one might find what one needs (even if that is to look somewhere else).

PLCrane,
That's a nice concept. I hope it helps others here and elsewhere.

gazza99,
I think I missed your point of referring me to that thread, If it was the hippie rant. One person would only take so much before person wouldgo violent. But That was not enough to really speak to your mention of T'ai Chi Ch'uan people not all Minimum damage-no damage people. Sometimes minimum damage is killing. There are lesser degrees too. But if you are one of these non minimal/no-damage types, unless you and your type, want and try to hurt people without provocation. Or hurt them for your pleasure, then I am correct and T'ai Chi Ch'uaners while they can be agressive use minimal force to no force. If you are Pa Kua or Hsing-I, you could pervert the T'ai Chi Ch'uan techniques to suit your upsetness or disturbedness. And thinking of it, yes someone could be good at T'ai Chi Ch'uan and have a really bad attitude. Hopefully, they would practice more and T'ai Chi Ch'uan would overcome their perverted heart and soothe their soul~ Hopefully.

[diego]

Originally posted by Unstoppable
i Would not want To fight from Low Horse Stance. mayeb its Goiod for training but to a fight You could get some Guy kick you in the leg if Hes at the side and it Take too long to shift Weiught and counter or if in the Middle WHOAH big Kick to thwe 'Nads and you would Be Flattened Man!!!! What do You think?


depends how deep and mobile your center of gravity is!.

[diego]

Originally posted by Unstoppable
i Would not want To fight from Low Horse Stance. mayeb its Goiod for training but to a fight You could get some Guy kick you in the leg if Hes at the side and it Take too long to shift Weiught and counter or if in the Middle WHOAH big Kick to thwe 'Nads and you would Be Flattened Man!!!! What do You think?


depends how deep and mobile your center of gravity is!.

[No_Know]

A comment so good, that it had to be posted twice. :-)

[HuangKaiVun]

If one gets tackled from the front by a significantly bigger opponent and one wishes to stay on his feet, a low horse stance is the only way to do that.

[TaoBoy]

If one gets tackled from the front by a significantly bigger opponent and one wishes to stay on his feet, a low horse stance is the only way to do that.

Not necessarily true. Yes, this is a good technique and may work for someone who has practiced a deep, strong horse stance for quite some time. However, not all fighters could hold up a bigger opponent. I prefer to use your opponent's energy against him.

Useless techniques?
I know I've wondered about some stuff I have learned until I was shown it's application. Ask!

Nice thread, people!

[Merryprankster]

If you get "tackled" (no decent grappler simply tackles) from the front by anybody with an ounce of grappling ability and attempt to use a low horse stance as your counter to stay on your feet, you and the ground are going to be fast friends.

Now, is somebody tries to hip throw you, sinking your weight isn't too shabby an idea.

[No_Know]

If you do Horse-riding stance in that tackle situation, perhaps you might try using that base to rotate the attack to either side.

It's like stuff gets pulled in then thrown out by the Tazmanian Devil of Looney Toons™. Only shorter rotation. Only the deflection part is the same...It's like falling off of a log. It (your torso up to shoulder level) yields some and rotates as it yields. Zooop, off to the side, for the attacker.

You might should stand sideways to the aggressor. Confusion can arise from taking of position in a horse-riding stance. I think that many seem to think the body and feet always face the same general direction--forward. From a feet parallel low horse-riding stance the upperbody can rotate to where the shoulders squared move slightly more than 90° to either side. That's a range of motion +180° with shoulders about parallel to feet while the feet remain in place.

A side-facing horse-riding stance with an appropriately timed rotation (and some other stuff), might be helpful if you take that stance for that attack.

Brush Knee and Push of T'ai Chi Ch'uan could also be used for a tackle attack, it seems.

[No_Know]

Please post other moves, techniques, stances which you've heard/think...are useless.

[Lowlynobody]

.....it's a leopard fist strike with the palm to the top of an opponent’s head. I'm thinking there must be some as yet unknown dim-mak application?

If the strike is directed just above the temples on the top of the head in the area where the hair parts this area has a whole host of gal bladder points that when struck can result in unconsciousness or cause the opponents legs to weaken significantly. One of the places where a Mor Kuil can be used to strike that I have seen cause a knock out.

As to useless techniques from forms - never seen one yet.

[Former castleva]

On strike on top of head:
Such strikes are used in kung-fu but also in other arts,I believe.
While human skull is very hard,generally speaking (previously mentioned strike to forehead (frontal bone) may be foolish in a way that frontal bone is pretty hard,it can still cause a knock-out,neck damage,inner,bleeding (inner for sure) and death.
This is quite questionable though,because as previously mentioned,thick it is...)
Besides back of head/base of skull region and pressure points,vital points still remain on top of head.
Frontal fontanel (also known as "baby spot" of new born infants) is located on a curve between top of head and forehead more towards the forehead,skull is weaker in there.
Coronal suture-top of head what you were probably speaking of (point where lines of bones connect) is very notable area.
There are various effects that may follow if either of these two points are struck (also remember of pressure points of which "baihui" on the top can kill in a heartbeat)
Both of those areas mentioned can result in death if enough force is applied,skull fractures,internal bleeding,knock-out,weakness...this kind of effects,can´t be more specific right now (affects various nerves)
It would be best to use a stick or related weapon but a downwards palm slap or maybe hammerfist might be good (leopard fist sounds hilarious,but if it´s necessary to form for using palm heel...ok)

[neptunesfall]

so far i haven't found movements that were useless, just movements i didn't understand.

[Former castleva]

Useles moves...
dim mak strikes that go for a spot located somewhere between opponent´s third and fourth ribs of left ribcage,in the depression on X cartilage near X nerve usually under the arm when...yadda yadda.

[neptunesfall]

i think to try and over focus a technique to that extreme is a useless idea, not to mention idiotic...but to just use the technique to slam their ribs (or whatever) on that side...well, that's useful.

[Former castleva]

Neptunesfall,
Yeah.Nothing wrong with a rib strike (of course in a case where you´d be going for a point around floating ribs an example,it could work very well even if you would not hit the spot)
My point was that such complicated attacks to targets that can barely be located and which are usually covered by clothing,possibly heavy which takes all of the fight out of the technique.

[No_Know]

O.K. really specific strikes are useless to Former castlevania.

That third and fourth ribs on x place of tissue graphting z...I would use when they throw a hook. But only use it during Spring or Summer when the clothes are light enough for my strike to matter. :-)

[Mizong_Kid]

some of the kicks i hav learnt are way impractical......hell even if u were that good at them you would probably be knocked out while you are airbourne anyway. crescent kicks....i know what they aim to do but i find it very hard to believe that in a real situation this could be used effectively unless the opposition was some dumb drunken ediot who stood there waiting for it.

with kung fu i find that.....physical size and strength does matter.....in a real situation the smaller guy has all the odds against him.....i know.....i am one of those small skinny guys

i havent been learning mizong long but from what i have learnt....i would stick to kicking the knee joint...and the simple block (swipe of your forearm across your face and grab)....and kick!

one of the senior students showed me some practical moves i hadnt been taught in class.....but i find i would probably struggle to actually use these techniques in a real situation against sumone who is 99% likely to be bigger and stronger than me

[Stacey]

The biggest mistake I ever made was thinking I knew what was effective and what was worthless as a begginer. Practice those movements hard because you are learning how to make future techniques effective. Otherwise, you'll only have your couple of techniques and when you fight, you won't even have those.

[SaMantis]

Other moves ...


OK, butterfly kick to me always looked like a useless move -- wind up, launch yourself up and around with both feet behind you at parallel or higher than your head, then land in the same position that you started in (typically riding horse stance). Done well, it looks beautiful and wushu-ish; done badly, it just looks bad.

Then my instructor was showing us application the other night and we asked him about butterfly kick. Sure enough, there's an application, and the feet do need to hit a target. I'm still not sure about its effectiveness, though.

Mizong kid: Bigger & stronger isn't necessarily better. Bigger students tend to use brute force to get their way and often don't practice fine techniques exactly, because they think they don't have to. There's nothing more satisfying than putting a wrist lock on someone a foot taller than you and walking him out of the room. Practice like crazy and find the fulcrum/leverage points in every move and you could control the Hulk if you want.

[HuangKaiVun]

I use the inside and outside crescent kicks not as kicks, but as SPINS.

Sometimes, I need to get away from my opponent very quickly in a rotatory fashion. I have yet to find a drill that teaches a student how to spin away from guys better than a crescent kick does.

I noticed that somebody brought up the leopard strike to the head. The key to doing this move is understanding that the attack should be applied to the bones of the face. Hit yourself in the cheekbone or clavicle with a leopard strike GENTLY to imagine how much damage that would do to an opponent at full force.

As far as fighting bigger and stronger opponents go, being smaller is definitely a liability as far as controlled sparring goes. But as far as illegal moves (e.g. streetfighting) is concerned, the smaller man can evade his attacker much more easily and get away faster.

Also, smaller men can be difficult to grapple if they have trained to attack vital areas in the course of combat.

[nospam]

Hmmm....interesting take on things HuangKaiVun.

Crescent kicks to spin. It is my belief and experience that the body will naturally spin away or into an opponent as directed by any given counteraction/interaction or what I call dynamic interaction. Although I am a firm believe that a kick is merelya step...it is an awkward step compared to how the body can be directed with flexed legs on the ground. But hey...I wouldn't think to tell you how to fight.

The 'panther' fist to the face?? Another interesting take. This move is generally accepted as a soft tissue strike. This is the beauty of Chinese MAs. There are many fists (strikes) that can be used and any will generally work, but the reason there are so many is because of...as I call it...dynamic interaction. If I am going to strike the throat, then I'd rather have a stabbing fist such as the 'panther' fist. If I were to striek the face, then a clenched full fist is great as it covers much surface area and incorporate strong bone joints to transfer power...power that can best be described as a crushing fist. Just as I would use a finger strike to the eyes vs a 'panther' fist for the same area.

And truth be told..not that I'd tell you how to do your MAs..anyone applying a 'panther' fist to the face will soon understand why this is generally not an accepted move.

Regarding other comments made int his thread: I am a proponant of low rooted stances in fighting. But the thigh parellel to the ground stance...sorry...I'd like to see ANYONE use that effectively. Truly. I would like to see someone use it outside of a semonstration.

An useless techniques in my style? Hmm...I guess I have ever to use a crane block. I have used the cranes beak to attack...once more affirming my earlier comments that all strikes have a place. The cranes beak being another soft tissue strike. I can use it nicely to the throat. It is a dangerous strike to use though, but that also depends on how it has been taught and employed.

I luv the tiger claw. When properly employed, I've yet to have it blocked. It is such a strong strike utilizing strong muscles. Plus it's fun getting into the beast...if ya know what I mean.

nospam.
:cool:

[David Jamieson]

The only useless techniques are the ones you don't train enough to be able to apply properly.

It is natural that each of us will be comfortable with a select few techniques and we will each master that selection. But don't throw out the baby with the bathwater and proclaim that a technique is useless because you haven't been able to understand it yet. Keep it, keep working it at every opportunity and add it to your select few :D

I like fu jow strikes as well, especially continuous and relentless claws. This has worked for me in sparring just for the sheer attack overload it causes the opponent.

The leopard fist as I was taught it is as Nospam says, a soft tissue strike and works well when used to "slash" across the throat. Either yin or yang palm facing, inside or outside motion.

Cranes beak is good too, though I would use it to the eyes or as a scooping trap for low roundhouses (it has really worked for me in this fashion)

Anyway, it's all good, you just have to work it and work it, then work it again.

peace

[HuangKaiVun]

In my school, we don't do the leopard strike to the face in sparring because we'll cave in our cheekbones even with "accidental" strikes.

I don't like clenched fist punches because the jing is too spread out for me to be happy with. That little leopard knuckle to the face is far more painful for an opponent to deal with because it has a far less surface area and a much greater velocity for me. Also, the angles of attack to the head open up with the options I have with a leopard strike.

When somebody grabs me from under the arms from behind in a reverse bear hug, I'll often apply leopard strikes to his hands to cause him to release me. Try hitting the back of your hand GENTLY with a leopard strike to see how much pain this can cause if applied with full force.

The crane block I use all the time. When a guy grabs me with both arms, I often use a "fuk sao" like motion to grab his offending arms to read his motions. I use the forearm and wrist to control the guy and perform my maneuvers, not the hand itself.

I'll also use the crane block to ride up over an opponent's standing guard so that I can strike at the rest of him. This is the "til sao" technique from Wing Chun. Of course the opponent can counter that, but that's the way real sparring goes anyhow.

Generally, I do the crane strike more as a SLAP than as a poke. I'll slap the groin or the ears or even the front of the face. The cupped crane hand is a very dangerous weapon.

[omarthefish]

There's two different kinds of leopard fists which I think are getting confused here - slashing and stabbing. The soft tissue leopard fister's are probably thinking of it like a punch. The throat being an obvious target. In the Hung Gar two man sets there's also a leopard fist stab to the opponents waist, near the kidneys.

The facial bones or temple strikers are probably using it as a slash. I'm skeptical about a temple strike mainly because there are better weapons for that, the phoenix eye? cranes beak? As an overhand downward slash like the one in the leopard part of Sup Yin or like the numerous tsop tsoi featured all thoughout choi-li-fut, I think the eyebrow is good. It doesn't wound severely but it can cause bleeding. It tends to open a cut and a cut over the eye, as any boxing fan knows, is not a good thing.

One thing I want to add to the cheekbone comments... more specifically the tempero-mandibular arch. Not the front part of your cheek bone. Find that knobby bony protrusion under what we lay people call our cheeks. Finf the little ridge that connects it to a spot in near your ears. That little bony bridge is thinner than a pencil.

Other leopard sticke targets include the TMJ, just below and in front of the ear and also Clipping the nose .

Fun with anatomy! :D get your mothers permission first.

[No_Know]

Butterflykick can also be an evasion technique. Pivoting before/during launch determines landing place

[No_Know]

Thank_you Stacey. Hopefully others will correct that in themselves.

Spins, all right. :-)

[straight blast]

Perhaps I should abandon Training with Use Low Kicks to the Leg since it Sounds like they Have no effect On People who train properly.

Don't even joke about it. I have seen about six professional Muay Thai fights won by relentless kicking to the thigh and lower leg. I have also seen one title fight (not sure which title) finished by the 1st leg kick of the fight. And trust me, these guys are conditioned to the nth degree.

Leg kicks are the bee's knees, the wasp's nipples, the major erogenous zone of every insect in the southern hemisphere.

I can't speak for the northern :D

[TKD]

1st, in contradiction to an earlier post on a previous page. NO FLAMES INTENDED!:) Simply a seperate thought on the subject. I took Karate for 2 1/2 years and like the previous poster was taught for the most part to keep stationary. However, I now take Tae Kwon Do, and we are taught to move as much as humanly possible. There are techniques and tricks to this though, it is not a jump around and wave your arms type of thing. The techniques are things such as shuffles and switches and the like. The reasoning behind this is that the more "useless" movements that you make, the harder it is for your opponent to know what to expect. Thats TKD's reasoning, and I must say that it works much better for me than the "rooted" stance of Karate.

Second, I don't know how you use the crescent kick in Kung Fu, but in TKD it is mostly used when the opponent starts circling or if the opponent is in to close for anything other than a hand technique, and it is impractical at that time. In the second case we use what we call a bent leg crescent kick, I don't know if you have seen or heard of this(as I do not take Kung Fu)but the kicking leg stays bent throughout the kick so as to better wrap around the back in order to hit the head. Quite useful in my opinion.

Anyways, that's just my thoughts on the subject.
TKD

[HuangKaiVun]

There's a way to do the leopard fist, and there's a way not to.

When you do it RIGHT, it can do all sorts of damage to the opponent.

When you do it WRONG, the only thing it'll work on is a soft tissue area - and not that well either.

As far as the effectiveness of temple strikes with the leopard goes, omarthefish, it works great especially in grappling. A hard leopard noogie to the temple is the type of thing that can kill a person, let alone incapacitate him.


I agree with you on the rootedness thing, TKD - as far as point sparring goes.

However, things are different in a real brawl where guys are trying to grapple you. That's where that heavy but mobile karate stance can really keep you on your feet, especially when facing multiple opponents.

Also, there's little time in a real fight for "useless" movements. When somebody pulls a gun on you, you've got to get to him before he pulls the trigger.

[Mr Punch]

Crescent kick as a spinning evasion...?

Why would you ever want to spin away from someone unless:

1) you had control of one of their limbs and wanted to break it, rip it off and beat them round the head with it, or take them down...

2) you had had some kind of application of force to one side of your body in a dynamic interaction such as one of those No-Know describes...

?

And if you're going to spin away from soemone for these reasons, why is a crescent kick more efficient than anything else?

Please note, question, not flame. Also, if you're going to answer please do not just give it anything ending with '... then you're not doing it right...'! I don't usually do them anyway!

[No_Know]

Have to get him? Perhaps other. There is that he would shoot you by accident or for the pleasure, or reaction. But there is also that he will leave if unchallenged too much.

Perhaps you can Get him by doing what is asked and wait him out.

I you get him psychologically or physically please be aware of the open part of the gun. If your technique is flawed even slightly, keep the open end from facing Anyone. because the gun's execution is likely without flaw, repeatable and unpredictable in a struggle. Even after release. When it hits something as it falls. Direction is no longer within your control. and Everyone come into Russian roulette-like risk.

Perhaps some such, some might say.

[TKD]

Mat, I think you misunderstood. I mean if your opponent starts circling you while you are standing in the same spot a crescent kick is a vey efficient way of hitting them. Now, if you know they are not going to attack until they get around to your front again, I would reccomend a reverse hook kick or a good old fashioned turning kick. But, if you don't know whether or not they're going to attack and want to do something while they are moving, a crescent kick is your best bet. I say this because of how fast this kick can be executed and because of how much you can spin by placement of the standing foot.

If you are reffering to the second instance, the bent leg crescent kick. It is best executed if you have hold of them(self defense) but it is not neccesary and completely illegal in sparring. It is executed without very much spin, just enough so that you can get the leg around behind the back and hit the head, instead of diminishing power by accidentaly hitting the back on the way to the head.

Hope this helps, TKD:)