Panther Fist Thumb

[yutyeesam]

Silly question, I know. BUT, the way I know the panther fist (Tsop Choy), the thumb presses against the index finger for support. However, I've seen CLF masters hold the panther fist w/o the thumb support, ie, it is bent downward, like in a Karate knife hand. Is it the case that they are holding their fist wrong? Or is it another way of hold the panther fist? Or is it a different type of fist altogether?

Just wondering.
123

[Bolt]

Perhaps someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but *my* understanding is that this is the difference between a leopard/panther fist and a ginger fist. I used to think they were the same thing but the minute differences would be that that a ginger fist has the knuckles stright/slightly bent up, with the thumb as youdescribe it, while the true leopard/panther fist has the thumb supporting the finger and the bent fingers/knuckles slightly down (ever so slightly). There is a distinction made within my style, as the "ginger fist" is not used, but the panther is.

[yutyeesam]

Bolt-
What styles employ the ginger fist? Is it a common kung-fu fist? I had heard about it, but I've never seen/experienced it (knowingly) in CLF.

Thanks,
123

[TenTigers]

in our Hung-Ga, we use the leopard (panther) fist witht he thumb supporting the fingers on the side making it more tight. The geung ji kuen-ginger fist is with the thumb under the second row of knuckles, but the knuckles themselves are more uneven rather than straight across as in the pao kuen. Lung Tao-dragon's head is a middle knuckle strike (nuggie-remember second grade?) but some people call this a ginger fist as well. There is also a gok kuen, or as my fiance' calls it lien gok. This is a whipping knuckle strike to the side of your husband's head. She claims all Chinese wives know this and it is an accepted part of Chinese culture. I'm not buyin this for one minute. Gene? Any input on this one?

[Helicopter]

In our Hung Ga Kuen the Leopard fist the thumb rests behind the first two fingers, one particular punch has been descibed as a 'hot ginger punch' using the same leopard fist, it's like the karate corkscrew punch but isn't from the hip it starts from an extended postion snaps and returns v. quickly.

jpcm

[Tao-Yin-Lee]

In Hop-Gar, the 'mounted-thumb' as used in the Lama fist formation as a pressure point stike is also used in the Charp-Choi fist configuration. This is either as a simple support structure or as in the Lama Fist as a striking surface with the thumb-joint itself. As a pure 'stabbing-Cut' the thumb may be unmounted according to preference.

The whipping fore-knuckle strike is called 'Faan-Sau' and is a 'Speciality Hand' - derived from the Ginger-Fist hand formation in Lee-Yin-Sing Pai SPM. The use of the mounted thumb as a pressure point strike is found also, both as a 'Jook-Kiu' Bamboo Bridge impact against the bridge or other body surfaces - and as a squeeze point hit.

The Ginger-Fist is a Lee-Yin-Sing Speciality Hand.

The same action is also in Sai-Jong Pai Hop-Gar Lion's Roar, the fist is closed into a 'Lama-Fist' as a 'Squeeze-point' whipping impact strike. this may be delivered from any angle of incidence relative to the target and features as an 'add-on' to basic seed fists such as Cup-Choi and Tsou (Hook) Choi.

The Lama-Fist is of course a Lion's Roar Speciality and 'Hallmark' fist.

Tao.
www.tibetankungfu.com
Check out the 'Fist-Form Gallery Links' 1 & 2' at the above url.
Much of what I've mentioned is illustrated there

[Fu-Pow]

The descriptions here allude me. It seems like everyone has different names for different techniques?

In my branch of CLF we have chaap cheui or leopard fist. This could also be called a flat fist strike. And that describes it...you push the tips of your fingers to the pads at the top of your palm. The back of the hand and the first bone of the fingers should make a straight line. The thumb can either be tucked into the side of the fist for stability or if you have strong hands you can press it against the side of the hand to keep it out of the way.

The other fists you are talking about I've never seen in my branch, although I think other branches have them.

For example, I believe the ginger fist is a fist where you make a western style fist with your thumb pressed against the 2nd knuckles of the second and third finger. The second knuckle of the middle finger is pushed out to allow pinpoint striking. I actually have this strike in my system of Taiji too. I've heard of this fist as dragon fist also.

Then there is the phoenix eye fist which is basically the same thing but where you push the second knuckle of the index finger out. I think styles like Wing Chun and Bak Mei emphasize this.

All of these fists seem to serve similar purposes....to hit pressure points. If you are trying to inflict damage it seems that a regular fist will work better, but if you want to add a little more pain to your punch these types of strikes work better.

I might also note that the CLF leopard fist punch only works well on soft targets. If you have ever tried to hit a bag with this type of fist you'll quickly see why. Alignment of the bones of the hand is key to making this type of strike work. The better the alignment the more power is transferred. Incidentally, my Sifu can do regular pushups on the edge of his panther fist.....burly.

[JAZA]

I our branch of CLF, the panther fist is called pow choy or charp choy.
I know that there also a ginger fist in advanced levels with the cardio finger more protuted than a charp choy.

A question, there is any connection between Lama and Choy Lee Fut or SOuthern Shaolin??,

[Tao-Yin-Lee]

There is a lot of cross-over between just about all styles that have met over time in South China. Specifically about the Tibetan systems and any others, David Ross is an excellent source of history as he has researched much of it to academic standards.

I know next to nothing of CLF personally, other than regarding it as an intelligent style.

The Phoenix-eye, Gai-Sum-Choi (also called Dragons Head), and other speciality hands can inflict deep tissue damage as well as simply superficial pain. The delivery can be short-sharp-shocking or with deep (Chune-Ging) penetration.

It is possible to hit and to damage heavy tissue areas such as strongly developed muscles in the thighs, the shin bones the feet (including the maleolous bones either side of the ankle) and the often heavily protected shoulder joints - e.g the acromion process - with say - the 'Ginger Fist'. Easy 'kills' include the biceps for example - the more hevily developed the better - the greater the induced spasm in the muscles. The sternum is another bony 'soft' target as is the strenoclavicular joint. The Phoenix-Eye is extremely versatile also. the whipping Fann-Sau and its related Cup-Choi can be a large or small arc and is an effective and quick knockout when impacting the chin. It can be launched from an engagement inside the opponenets bridge or guard, or flow in as part of a combo, working back-off itself as it impacts various points 'on the way in'. It is an excellent pre-emptive strike as it can be 'launched' quickly like a gunfighters draw directly to target from the hands held lightly by the side - no chambering required - short arc with the apex or the parabola being the point of the chin. Squeeze point impact with twisting on the stance and 'tere-san' dan-tien dynamics thru the waist give it terrific rotational force impact - fast and non telegraphic.

It is better to train these fists impacting human targets - with reasonable force as bags do not offer the right shape - mass and density nor indeed the correct 'reaction' to impacting force. Hitting people is totally different than bags or pads of any kind. 'Bag work' is useful, it just isn't an accurate reflection of the techniques application. If someone starts with developing 'human impact' force then the translation to effective bag and pad work is facilitated. The other way around is IMO wrong.

In my Hop-Gar Lion's Roar Pai, the Phoenix-eye, Dragon's Head, Charp-Choi (aka Ginger-Fist and Si-Ji-Choi "Lion's Cut") and of course Lama fist - are taught immediately from the first form.

SPM is a speciality art par-excellence when it comes to such fists.

Overall if an art is taught as 'application driven' these things tend to make an earlier appearance in the students learning curve.

Tao.
www.tibetankungfu.com

[Pak Mei student]

Tao.
www.tibetankungfu.com [/B][/QUOTE]

What is the difference between Tibetan Kung fu and Lama kung fu?Just curious?

[Tao-Yin-Lee]

Hello PMS

All Tibetan 'Kung-Fu' - Sai-Jong Pai's derive from Senga Ngwa - Tibetan Lion's Roar martial arts - the combat art of the Lama ranked monks in Tibetan Buddhist monastaries.

Lion's Roar arrived in China over a period of centuries from the mid 1400's C.E. It was the art of choice for Buddhist Monks in the Tibetan (Tantric) tradition as opposed to the Shaolin Ch'an (Zen) tradition. The Lama's enjoyed patronage from the Mongol Yuan and Manchu Ching dynasties.

It retained the name Lion's Roar until the first generation students of Tibetan Sing-Lung (Sage Dragon) Lama began to teach the art openly in the South.

At this pont it started to be called alternatively Lama or Lion's Roar Kung-Fu. The next addition in name came as one branch Pai referred to it as 'Hop-Gar' (Hop meaning Knight, Patriot or Hero) after the nickname of Wong-Yun-Lum - the number 1. in the Canton 10 Tigers Association after his victory in 150 challenge fights against all comers in Canton.

Disciples of Wong-Yun-Lum's brother Wong-Lum-Hoi started to call it Tibetan White Crane.

Since that time the Lion's Roar tradition (in China) has diversified again very much so that Lama, Hop-Gar and White Crane have many different versions.

Most of the lineages known to the West have come thru South China and hence thru 1st patriarch Sing-Lung. Other lines of Lion's Roar exist in manchuria and most likely elsewhere within China.

It is effectively extinct in Tibet.

There is an initiative to return this art to the Tibetan People and Nation. Many however regard it as now a Chinese art, and some even go so far as to re-write history to make it appear as if it were a Shaolin derived system. The issue of Tibet as an independent Nation state is very difficult with many Chinese people and in particular with the current authorities in mainland China.

It is a Chinese system, but it is also Tibetan too. It's roots are in Indian Kalari, and over the centuries it has absorbed many techniques from North, West and South China.

There is great variation in its practice but the core remains very similar in most Pai.

Lama Kung-Fu is an equivalent term for Sai-Jong (Tibetan) Pai.
My choice is to empahsize the Tibetan core of the art - and Tibetan culture - without prejudice to the later Chinese additions. This art has been preserved thru the efforts of generations of Chinese and transmitted to the west thru them.

My school studies the originating context (culturally) and is attempting to link Tibetan language to the Chinese in its teachings. We are working with the Official agency of His Holiness the Dalai Lama - the Government of Tibet in Exile - to facilitate this cultural regeneration - and of course to return it back to teh Tibetan people and Nation.

Wrestling arts such as Amaree still flourish in Tibet. However, what remains if anything of Lion's Roar has either gone underground or been militarily eliminated since the Chinese communist invasion and oppression of 1949.

I support fully those Pai that wish to retain the Chinese identification of the Lama arts - they have that right and I recognize their wishes. Nevertheless, I also recognize the Tibetan origins of this art and that it is a lost cultural treasure of the Tibetan Nation.

Tao.
www.tibetankungfu.com

[Pak Mei student]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tao-Yin-Lee


Thanks for your information