Good Internal Power in Wing Chun

[red5angel]

While at the last seminar Car Dechiara gave a simple demonstration that illustrated why proper rooting is important and also made me realize how internal power can be developed and utilized in wingchun very effectively. The demo was simple, he stood there while you pushed on him and tried to budge him. while doing this I noticed, especially around his joints, knees, elbows, shoulders, etc, small micro adjustments where his body was adjusting to and linking to move the energy down through him to the ground. Later on while discussing where some of our power comes from, it hit me that the same principle for which we were learning to absorb power, was also very similar if not identical to what we do to issue forth internal power.
A good example would be to look at a punch. When you punch, you use your arm, and for most people this is as far as it goes. Now look at the size of the muscle in your arm! Even with large muscle they cannot rival the mass of your leg muscle, which can be used as sort of a building point for internal power, linking your body to draw the energy up and out your fingers. those muscles are much more powerful and add to that the strong structure of the human body, its like a jackhammer! You bones and ligaments provide you with the structure to issue, gather, and send forth all the power you can develop through a strong root and good structure.
This is why your root is so important and why most people dont have the ability to deliver the sort of power they could, if they took the time to be precise. Anyone can get it, absolutely anyone! Its one of the things I think is awesome about wingchun, because this is where the equalizer comes in, If you are a smaller person and you have to fight a bigger opponent, wing chun that has a good root and solid structure can deliver the sort of energy to put those larger opponents down!
You combine these with good sensitivity, the ability to listen to your opponents thoughts and feel him before he feels himself and you have an awesome art!

[dezhen2001]

yup, WC is an awesome art :) Just have to practise hard and understand the principles (as well as how to use them)... hope i do one day :D

david

[red5angel]

Dezhen - The principles are easy to understand but take some serious practice to get down. Like Chess for example, you can teach someone to play Chess in a matter of minutes, but to play it well, or competitively, or to play it at a masters level takes practice, lots and lots of good practice!
The internal part is important. How can one go on to say that wingchun was created by a women, or works well for women (Which is often a selling point for schools) and then turn around and start muscling techniques and doing speed drills etc? Not everyone can get these. The women in my class are petite, not a whole lot of upper body strength compared to the rest of us but with time they could confidently compete with other wing chun people and defend themselves if necessary on the street. No need for them to do anything but practice wingchun an hour or two a day!

[Frank Exchange]

How were you trying to move him?

Were you actively trying to uproot him?

Most important, was there any upward component to your force?

[red5angel]

FrankExchange - This was just a demonstration, but not the hey look at me, no one can uproot me type. Just a push on me as hard as you can and watch what happens. He puts an arm out in front of him and you push into him. It shouldnt matter too much what direction anyway. For instance our Pak Sau drill has parts that teach us to deal with upward and downward energy. Ultimatley if you were in a conflict you would turn with it as soon as it got to be too much, or relax, whatever would deal best with it.

[Axiom]

Originally posted by red5angel
When you punch, you use your arm, and for most people this is as far as it goes.

I am by no means any kind of martial arts expert, but.... in which martial arts don't you use more than just your arm for a punch? Generating power through the whole body is something that was introduced quite early on in my Wing Chun class, and the same goes for other styles I have tried. I don't claim to be good at it, but it doesn't seem like rocket science.

[red5angel]

Axiom, I would agree, it would seem like the right way to go but often times this is not the case. to get your body to co-operate that way takes some work and some serious training to get it down, and of course there is always room for improvement!

[Axiom]

So, what gives you the impression that most people only punch with their arm?

[red5angel]

Most people naturally punch without body unity. Others, even martially trained, dont bother to train this specifically and only have a small fraction of what they could. Its like, priodically you meet a martial artist who can blow you away with his power, even at an old age. He hits you and it feels like a ton of bricks, and much more substantial then most. At the same time you are surrounded by people who practice the same art but dont have the substantial feeling when they hit you. thats the difference.

[Sabu]

Red5angel says:
"This is the word of the Lord"

Congregation replies:
"Thanks be to God" (sign of the cross)

[anerlich]

red5angel stumbles across a principle common to many MA's from many countries (WC, taiji, aikido, boxing to name but a few) and then comes across like he's Moses getting the stone tablets.

Film at eleven.

As AndrewS mentioned on another thread, watch the Tyson/Spinks fight for a truly awesome and horrifying example of using body unity to deliver punching power.

[red5angel]

If I get the chance I will definitely check that fight out. I understand that boxers use this principle pretty well too.
My point isnt necessarily that the principles arent there but that most people dont address them as much as they can or should. For a good example, check out your local Mcdojo or Mckwoon.

[Axiom]

So, you are addressing your initial comments at who? Students of so-called 'mcdojos' and 'mckwoons'? Or do you have also have a point to make to those who are students of decent schools and have already put 2 and 2 together and come up with the punch-with-the-whole-body theory?

[red5angel]

Well, even some of the so-called descent schools are not so good. Atleast the Mckwoons have a system for ranking and certifying thier instructors. A good portion of the instructors I have met shouldnt be teaching at all! Here in the area it is especially prevalant. I just recently found out that a guy who dropped from our school 2 months ago is now TEACHING for Emin Boztepe!!!! how do you get to teaching in two months of training?!

[Alpha Dog]

How does one get to making sweeping generalizations about the entire Wing Chun world, "exposing" all its strengths and weaknesses, after 2 years of training?

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by red5angel
Well, even some of the so-called descent schools are not so good. If you really want your mind blown more than it already is, Red, Toronto is the place to be.

[black and blue]

Red says: "Well, even some of the so-called descent schools are not so good. Atleast the Mckwoons have a system for ranking and certifying thier instructors. A good portion of the instructors I have met shouldnt be teaching at all!"

Red - you're a legend. I love your posts. In one bout of typing you can upset everyone on the forum and tell them their WC is dog sh*t. :)

Most excellent reading!

Ps. Toronto - :( A city with no soul. So who teaches WC in Toronto?

[red5angel]

Its not about the entire wingchun world AD, just a good portion of it, atleast here in america. Look around you at the level of skill and ability at most schools. Wing Chun is going the way of Karate and TKD without all the infrastructure to keep it atleast organized. Everyone and thier mother is out there trying to teach but most of them dont really get it, and shouldnt be teaching it.
For instance these so called simple concepts that everyone on this board seems to understand. Most schools show little or no proficiency or understanding when it comes down to it. Chi Sau has become sloppy and uncontrolled, rooting is a mostly a joke now a days, because everyone is in a rush to get it all, instead of focusing on the basics and getting those down before moving on.

[yuanfen]

redangels rush in where even fools fear to tread.!

[black and blue]

Yuenfen - are you hotting up for an online arguement with Red?

Didn't he critique your school and you his tan sau a few threads ago? Is he calling your class a McKwoon?

???

[red5angel]

Enterthewhip - Who and what is in Toronto? I know a few of you guys on this board are.

Black&Blue - I see a lot of people who get upset assuming I am talking about them. I honestly dont know most of you or how you train, I am just speaking from personal experience.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by red5angel
Enterthewhip - Who and what is in Toronto? No one and nothing you can handle mentally or physically.

[red5angel]

I see whipping hand is back in full form........

I have already mentioned to a few torontoites that I want to make a trip up there, probably not until next year though. Plenty of people up there to visit and hangout with, do a little chi sau, etc.....

[S.Teebas]

No one and nothing you can handle mentally or physically.

lol.... Whats the point of your posts?

[yuanfen]

Black and blue asks:Yuenfen - are you hotting up for an online arguement with Red?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Who me? No way Jose. I am always mindful of two of Murphy's kuen kuits.

1. never argue with a red angel- people may not know the difference.

2. Never leapfrog an unicorn.

[yuanfen]

black and blue sez:
Ps. Toronto - A city with no soul.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
black and blue- Why?
do they lack the delights of Ingles soul food like kidney pie?

[planetwc]

Sunny Tang
Brian Lewadney
Dominique Emond
Mario Hetu
Trenton Haggard

Among others are there. Who do you study with "whip"?


Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
No one and nothing you can handle mentally or physically.

[reneritchie]

Hi Dave,

Two students of Yip Man -- Ho Kam-Min (I believe mostly privately these days) and Fung Hon (Stewart Fung) are also in TO. Roy D. Anthony from this forum. I think there are TWC and WT reps there as well (unless your list included them).

Also two grandstudents of Sum Nung -- Chow Kwok-Tai and Henry Lo.

And Toronto has a soul. Montrealers brought it there during the Great Exodus ;)

RR

[sunkuen]

The bowel movement of jah peeple...oh oh oh yeah
Exodus:cool:

[Miles Teg]

Red5angel

When you refer to other schools as not being very good, I wonder whether you think this because they may be more external than what you practice.

There are two extremes of W.C. Very internal and very external. The internal has its benefits and so does the external. A more internalised system personally suits me. For my friends at the school where I used to practice the external way suits them more. I have tried to explain our way of doing things to them but they are not interested.

People who want to practice doing thousands of punches and more strenuous w.c work outs are not wrong. They see the benefit in what they are doing for their health and fighting ability. They enjoy what they are doing or else they wouldn't be doing it. In the school I practice in there is no physical excercise at all, so if you want to get fit you would need to do it in your own time.

In my youth I had done karate for 10 years until I was 18 years old and boy was I strong! I was fast, fit, and flexible. I didn't have the technical knowledge that I have now though. Now I am a bit over weight but enjoing the system I am doing none the less.

In short one has to weigh up the benefits of each different way. The way that someone choses is never wrong because it is suited to there personality, character or perhaps body type.

[reneritchie]

Sunkuen - Be nice, or no more poutine and Celine Dion CDs.... ;)

RR

[red5angel]

Miles Teg - Its a good point that you make but I do not believe this is it. I will state however that I do believe internal is the way to go. I say this because wing chun has always been taughted as an art for small people and women and something you can practice into old age effectively. This cant be done from the external perspective as the external training recquires you have some athletic ability. Internally anyone can get it if they apply themselves.
The problems I have are in some of the basic mistakes people are training. No structure, no rooting, no precision, things like that.

[sunkuen]

Don't ever, I repeat EVER think of messin' with my poutine dude....EVER!!!:mad:

As for Celine....Didn't she sink with the Titanic???:confused:

[red5angel]

What the heck is poutine?!

[burnsypoo]

it's amazing, exciting and the REAL way that french fries are supposed to be eaten. All you other mofo's don't even come close, TRUST ME. Now I'm not speaking for the poutine people, but I've been ALL around the world (read: my province) testing out different people's ways of eating fries, and lemme tell you, if you want to taste the REAL DEAL, then you have to come and try it. There will be a seminar for you to come and sample some if you want, I could even put you up in my house if you wanted.
I'm just trying to spread the word and save thousands of people from eating french fries the WRONG way....
oh, by the way, last week was the first time I ever tried poutine but TRUST ME....
I'm the sunscreen.

[old jong]

There it is!... (http://www.cs.umanitoba.ca/~gedetil/poutine.shtml)
It is actually not as bad as it looks! ;)

[red5angel]

WOW! that stuff cannot be good for you cholesterol!

[old jong]

there it is!... (http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Alley/7866/shot1.gif)
It is actually worse than it looks!...:rolleyes:

[old jong]

One is bad for the cholesterol,the other for your nerves!...:eek: ;)

[red5angel]

I think the beauty of internal practice is it becomes accessible by anyone and everyone! You can go external if you want but it would seem to me you would be going against some of the basic tenets of wing chun? Muscular power is limited, by genetics, by age, by many factors.
I look at it this way, instead of having to waste time lifting weights, doing strength training, I can spend the time actually trianing my art. You figure that you spend an hour a day on strength training, because you will have to to increase you level of skill in an external way, that hour could be spent honing your martial ability instead. This goes right along with all things wingchun! Now small people can use it to great effect, as well as people who are starting to feel thier age.

[Axiom]

'Tenets'. Just FYI.

[red5angel]

woops! thanks Axiom!

[reneritchie]

r5a - What are you using the word Internal to mean? Neijia (Noi Ga, Inside Family) has been used in many different ways. It can mean Chinese in origin as opposed to coming from somewhere else (Taoism vs. Buddhism); it can mean kept in the family as opposed to being taught to everyone and anyone; it can mean the grouping of Taiji, Xingyi, and Bagua by scholars in Beijing, it can be the Wudang mountain Neijiaquan system; it can be colloquially used for the "Wudang School" of MA as opposed to the "External" "Shaolin School"; it can be used for arts that focus on intent leading chi to cultivate spirit as opposed to those that concentrate on muscle, bone, and sinew; it's been used for those who focus on "interal" mechanics such as bone alignment and micro muscle adjustment to handle force rather than raw muscle power; its been used by those who favor "whole body" rather than "localized muscle" for handling force; its been used as a term for those who focus on ground vector or Peng path; its been used for those who yield or otherwise manipulate force rather than clashing with it; etc.

BTW- Burnsypoo, that was *classic*.

Rgds,

RR

[red5angel]

Renee - while I hate to use the labels internal and external, I am using several of those to fill out the definition. For example, the use of internal body structure, tendon/muscles at the joints. Bone alignment, as well as whole body unity, and I would also say there is a littl ebit of the yielding ideals thrown in for taste.

[burnsypoo]

Originally posted by red5angel
Renee - while I hate to use the labels internal and external, I am using several of those to fill out the definition. For example, the use of internal body structure, tendon/muscles at the joints. Bone alignment, as well as whole body unity, and I would also say there is a littl ebit of the yielding ideals thrown in for taste.


Simply amazing, such insight!

Did you know that inhaling, and THEN exhaling can help in the process of respiration??? Seriously!!! NOW YOU KNOW!!

I wonder if one's chi-sao is as teflon-like as one's think-fu.
-BP-

[yuanfen]

Shouldnt we have a thread on respiration?

[sunkuen]

Here's the recipe Red for poutine:

Ferst ya git yer pommes des frites

then ya gets yer cheeez kerds an dump em on the top

then ya puts'a smidgin uh gravee on the top and then ...YUP ya gessed it...WALLAH

[red5angel]

hmmmm, I might try them without the cheese curds......

[sunkuen]

geez red without the kerds thair juz frys & gravee

[EnterTheWhip]

I must say... poutine rocks. Preferred snack of the best Wing Chunners around.

[burnsypoo]

hey, I like poutine, can I play too?

[old jong]

I bet if Carl was making poutine...It would be light years ahead of all the other stuff!...;)

[anerlich]

Shouldnt we have a thread on respiration?
How about one on "despiration"?

[Alpha Dog]

West of Kingston, it's just gross