Speed/Technique vs Sensitivity/Precision Round 2!

[red5angel]

Ok, so it seems to me that most people are concerned with the techniques of wingchun. Often times you can hear people discussing strikes, counters, counter-counters, etc.... On top of this many people view speed as an integral part of thier training.
There was a thread last week discussing speed and why it wasnt necessary. After doing some thinking over the long weekend and may be able to explain this better.
Once the gap is closed, you are looking for contact. Once that contact is made what do you do? Do you strike? Do you block? We listen to our opponents. Try to feel their intent their next move. I have read that it is sometimes said wingchun people appear to read the minds of thier opponents and react before they react. The secret is sensitivity. It is my belief that most wing chun people have less then 1% of the sensitivity they could have. Watching some wingchun people spar or chi sau is almost painful because of those infamous flopping arms and the disconnection they maintain to thier opponents touch. Dan chi sau is the very base of this pyramid, but many sort of brush over it in a rush to get to chi sau and sparring. Without it however you have nothing but some flashy techniques! If you train diligently and smartly you develop a sensitivity that allows you to practically read the thoughts of your opponents byt feeling thier tension, even slight tension, and knowing their intent.
This kind of sensitivity allows you to go beyond what speed can give you, it allows you to react on your opponents reactions. Its precision that allows you to strike your target and hit effectively once sensitivity has done its job.

[TjD]

why not have speed, sensitivity, technique AND precision?

the chi sau i work trains all 4

[reneritchie]

Hey Red,

The way I learned, you put your hand out. If the opponent does nothing, the asking hand becomes the strike. If your opponent does something, the asking hand neutralizes it and asks again. Eventually the opponent tells you how to defeath him/her.

In general, IMHO, you don't need strength or speed or a steel chin or any other genetic gifts to achieve skill in WCK. They won't hurt you if you can put them aside and not use them to "coast", but often times un-gifted individuals are forced into becoming very conceptual, very technical, and to develop a heck of a work ethic to compensate. In fighting, however, strength, speed, resiliency, even luck can help if you make a mistake or find yourself outclassed.

Rgds,

RR

[red5angel]

You shouldn't have to worry about those things in chi sau. It should be building sensitivity and precision, those are the things you should be working.
The big thing however TjD, is that sensitivity and precision is available to anyone.

[TjD]

and so are technique and precision

its all about practice, practice practice practice


sensitivity is highly tied to your technique - with good technique, ones arms and body can reach the appropriate state of relaxation, which will allow your body to sense when to act, and to act so your mind does not need to think about it. without good technique your body will be too rigid to have any decent sensitivity

your precision is higly tied to your sensitivity - your ability to sense and react to where your opponent is from simple contact with their arm, or sight of their body highly relates to your precision in striking, and knowing which parts of their body are unguarded, your technique allows you to strike them properly

the combination of technique and sensitivity can greatly increase your speed; with good technique ones strikes flow smoothly and quickly, and with good sensitivity they are automatic and without thought, which definately increases speed


all four of these are tied together in many more ways than these, practicing chi sau properly will improve them all

[red5angel]

RR - of course there are the genetically gifted out there who just have an edge. with those always in the back of our mind we must assume that wingchun should be made accessible, and can be made accessible to anyone, like you said, there is no need for those gifts, just good hard work.
The idea is that with time, your sensitivity can overcome speed, even natural speed. Your root and body unity can overcome weakness and allow you to be powerful.

TjD - IMHO good technique comes FROM the sensitivity, relaxation, body unity and root.

I realized something this weekend. I am not a small guy, about 5'10" 205 lbs, I used to wieght lift a lot but now I do alot of situps pushups and pullups to maintain good health. now, this keeps me strong, but I have noticed that while doing the forms or what have you, my body has a natural tenseness to it, because of all the muscle building work I do. But it has its limits. With internal power you dont limit yourself to you muscle power. I stopped all of this and this weekend for the first time I have fealt like my body has finally started to really relax!

[black and blue]

Red5Angel wrote: "Once the gap is closed, you are looking for contact."

Once the gap is closed I'm looking to hit. So yes, contact! I'm not looking to bridge arms. If my opponent stops my attack (or if I deflect his), I'm then looking to strip down that bridge while I attack with other hand (or maybe with my feet).

I understand what you're saying about sensitivity, but in the street I'm not looking to tie-up my opponent's arms or assume a position like in poon sau... my first issue is to... err... issue. I want the strike first.

The level of bridge contact should, IMHO, be minimal. Chi Sau is a vital drill, but I have to ask Red, when someone's swinging in with hooks and jabs, and is intent on taking off your head, how much 'sensitivity' are you using to deal with the first punch?

Just a question. :)

There was a thread many moons ago about trapping. Trapping and detaining is often seen in Chi Sau. But again, initially, are we looking to trap or looking to hit?

[red5angel]

B&B - Of course you want to strike first! If someone is going nuts then you have to figure it out at that moment. If your opponent is more in control well, lok at the ready position, arm out in front of you. You will make contact and that is all you are looking for! By "listening" with sensitivity I dont mean touching hands and maintaining contact for an extended period of time, with some time and practice and instant is all you need!
For instance, Carl went around at the seminar and felt out hands, and instantly he could tell where our energy and intent was. Thats where you want to be, the instant you make contact you know where the opening is or where a persons energy is. As for how much sensitivity B&B? As much as I need. As far as I am concerned I train like I intend on fighting. Just because it is other wc guys I am training with, my sensitivity is being developed to handle anyone.

[dbulmer]

How could a 5ft 2 woman defend herself against a 6ft 1 bloke?

[red5angel]

Its all situational dbulmer. For example the best way is what I like to refer to as Run Fu. If for some reason this isnt possible, then by studying wingchun, developing a good solid root, sensitivity, precision, a smaller woman could have the skills she needs to get out of this situation.

[dbulmer]

Run,run Fu would be better :) An example of speed.
Speed is vital - in this example not engaging is perfectly ok - but the 6ft 1 guy is intent on raping her. She has 1 year of WC experience - what should she do?

let's assume running away is not possible -I know the situation is contrived but you are playing with ideas so let's take a situation that could happen.

My view is that staying out of the opponents reach and being mobile is more important in this scenario than any chi sao at her WC level.

Any thoughts - BTW This is not just addressed to R5A. I am playing devils's advocate here, I agree to some extent with R5A but I think sensitivity is not the only factor important to WC - there's a myriad of factors.

Speed, root+structure, mobility are the essence of WC.
BTW I cannot really answer my own scenario -I'd be out of my depth in suggesting a solution but I'd probably advise foot stamping and groin kicks to give her time to escape.

Any better ideas?
What I am getting at is that quite a few WC guys like me are unskilled and it takes time to develop the sensitivity, timing, root and speed to get proficient. I think sensitivity takes the longest skill to acquire but speed can be developed more quickly and be added to your WC arsenal in a shorter amount of time. A simplistic view I appreciate.

[red5angel]

Well,. I hate to discuss specific situations because there are too many unknowns. Each situation will play out in its own way and we practice martial arts to give us some control over the situation. In this instance, a year of training can be a lot or a little. For the women there may or may not be anything at this stage of the game (This is why I am vehemently against so called self defense classes). To be absolutely realistic there may be nothing she can do. Technique wise, who knows, maybe she has learned some good joint locks or joint breaks, something to convince this guy that he absolutely does not want to mess with her. after only a year of training, speed has as much a chance as anything else for her.

For me, root + structure + precision + sensitivity are all the foundations of WC. Speed can be developed but that is time you can spend developing those other things that wont abandon you later in life. Besides, for some, speed never comes.

Carl said something that made a lot of sense. In Sports where you contend with athletes, there is always going to be someone with higher natural gifts then you. If you want to train that way you can guarentee that there will be better people. If you dont worry about that, train the things that can be taught to anyone, you can overcome the majority of your opponents.

[Sabu]

Red5angel:
"This is the word of the Lord"

Congregation replies:
"Thanks be to God" (sign of the cross)

[TjD]

TjD - IMHO good technique comes FROM the sensitivity, relaxation, body unity and root.
****************

its a two way street

good technique will improve sensitivity, relaxation, body unity and root :)


they play off each other

you cant have one without the other; when you improve one, you improve the other

thats whats nice about chi sau, it works all of these factors and more

[TjD]

it might be good to make a distinction

if you practice chi sau for the wrong kind of speed, or wrong techniques (read both these as muscled - non relaxed) then they are non beneficial

however if trained correctly they enhance the other qualities

[red5angel]

TjD - "however if trained correctly they enhance the other qualities" Agreed.

I tend to not rely so much on technique based training so much. You can actually have good technique but crappy wingchun, if you dont believe me next time you are in minneapolis I will take you to a few good examples! These schools ignore the sensitivity training and such to advance at a faster rate. The problem is, even though you know how the chess pieces move, can you really play chess?

[TjD]

then it sounds like they need to do more chi sau, or better chi sau :)

[TjD]

im not saying that sensitivity is not important either you know :) its EXTREMELY important, way up there in the list of important things in wing chun

you need it to make your wing chun work

however, you need those other things as well :) they're all just as important and if play chi sau well, they will all play off each other and all get better

i think saying that two of them are most important, and that the others are not is wrong, because to be a good wing chun man, you need them all :) it would be bad to leave out technique from your training

[red5angel]

TjD - I think we are mostly in agreement. On speed, I just dont feel it needs to be trained. Many internal artist never do speed training but they seem to be able to outmaneuver their opponents just fine. Of course you need to be balanced but from a pure wingchun perspective, if you practice proper structure, rooting, sensitivity and precision, then you could probably spar most wc people into the ground, or anywhere else you wanted them to go ;)
Speed to me is much like strength, it is something that degrades with age and so relying on it can get you in trouble later in life.

[pvwingchun]

It is my belief that most wing chun people have less then 1% of the sensitivity they could have.
I don't know who you train with but I hope you are basing this number on them and not the whole of the WC community. Who are you basing 1% on, beginning students, advanced students your instructors? Come on red I have backed you up in forums before but you seem to make this type of statement about the WC community and practitioners on a regular basis and I don't think it is fair to all of us out here.


I have read that it is sometimes said wingchun people appear to read the minds of thier opponents and react before they react.
This may be because a good WC person does not hesitate to act, but attacks the attack before the others know what is happening. But then good sensitivity allows this when sparring, street reality is a different story.

I agree wholeheartedly with the sensitivity/precision thing but what happens if our sensitivity,precision and technique are equal?

[red5angel]

pvwingchun - dont take it the wrong way. My sensitivity isn't half of that as of yet! The problem is many wingchun schools and instructors just dont really understand the concepts behind sensitivity. That's why some of these guys train to be so fast! the other thing you have to understand from my implication is that many people just need to apply themselves harder to attaining that instead of trying to push through the system and get all the techniques and forms.

". But then good sensitivity allows this when sparring, street reality is a different story"

I disagree with this, if you are training one thing at your class but expect something different are you approaching wingchun like a sport? If you have excellent sensitivity it will help you in and out of the ring/class/street. Otherwise you would be implying that wing chun is designed only to fight other wingchun?

Nothing is ever equal.

[dbulmer]

R5a,
You are downplaying speed so much I think I have to disagree.
If you read about Leung Shun, do you think he would have been impressed by slow chain punches from an old man? An old man who was controlled but was fast enough to deliver controlled chain punches to a much younger skilled martial artist?

I agree 100% with TjD - there are a lot of factors. Sure speed as you get older decreases but you are able to compensate with other skills. It does not mean you should ignore the speed component - it needs to be worked on along with sensitivity, timing and root.

I am not suggesting speed alone is the most important factor - it isn't - chi sao is important as is footwork and good forms.

What I disagree with is your comment
"These schools ignore the sensitivity training and such to advance at a faster rate. The problem is, even though you know how the chess pieces move, can you really play chess?"

Chi sao is a tool - if you cannot hit someone and make it count then you are a pawn in the WC game. WC is a tool for the King to use. The ability to use basics quickly is one of the strengths of Wing Chun - chi sao builds on the basics to make it more versatile to give you more finesse, to teach more efficiency but chi sao is not a means in itself.

Secondly, WC is a system to combat other techniques - in a real situation there are no rules - a street fighter will not apply sublety in technique - he will respect being hit hard - we employ our skillsets to overwhelm an opponent. The ability to overwhelm an opponent includes being able to hurt the assailant hard.
Effective striking is a must and that includes speed!

[Fresh]

Isn't it kinda weird to put a thumbs up on your own posts? :confused:

I've been away awhile, but starting to catch up. Looks like you got some big time infomercial thing going on. Free advertsigins! Not too transparent bro. ;) :D :p :D :p :D

[dbulmer]

R5A,
"The problem is many wingchun schools and instructors just dont really understand the concepts behind sensitivity. That's why some of these guys train to be so fast! "

NO, NO.


Generally it's because there's an emphasis on form in technique.
There's so much to learn that some instructors prefer to concentrate on root, speed, correct body structure and footwork before moving to Chi Sao. Their argument is that with good basics the transition to chi sao will be easier. It has nothing to do with a lack of undertstanding - it's just a difference in training method.

[red5angel]

dbulmer - speed is a factor but to me it is more of a by product of sensitivity. If you strike at me and I connect the bridge, when you go to move I can feel you tense just a tad, feel your energy ad bam I am in before you. I believe it is a partial fallacy to say that speed equals power however.

"What I disagree with is your comment " what is it you disagree with?
As for Chi sau, it is a tool of wingchun agreed. Definitely not an ends to a means but because it has been 'sold' as the gem of wingchun, many schools, and students teach or are taught this before they are ready.

"in a real situation there are no rules - a street fighter will not apply sublety in technique - he will respect being hit hard - we employ our skillsets to overwhelm an opponent. The ability to overwhelm an opponent includes being able to hurt the assailant hard.
Effective striking is a must and that includes speed!"

I agree, no rules, its what I have been saying all along. you can imagine any scenario you want but you wont know until you get there. Meanwhile we train sensitivity as well as the other ingredients to overcome whatever it is we might face.

I am not saying you should ignore the speed factor either, just saying that wingchun speed, comes from sensitivity.


"Generally it's because there's an emphasis on form in technique.
There's so much to learn that some instructors prefer to concentrate on root, speed, correct body structure and footwork before moving to Chi Sao. Their argument is that with good basics the transition to chi sao will be easier. It has nothing to do with a lack of undertstanding - it's just a difference in training method"

I absolutely disagree here. Would you build the frame of a house before the basement or the foundation? Too many people want thier wingchun house to look good and they want people to see it so they build the house before the foundation, some even forget the foundation. When the crap hits the fan their house collapses, why? Because they didnt work the basics hard enough and felt just like you said, that they didnt need good basics to move on.

[Rill]

How could a 5ft 2 woman defend herself against a 6ft 1 bloke?
I would hope that after a year of WC any person, regardless of skill, would be able to get themselves out of a situation like this. Training 3x2 hour sessions per week, it adds up. 1 year of training is quite enough time to become proficient to a high enough level to be able to defend yourself against a single unskilled opponent, depending on how hard you train for those two hours you could be better or worse off, but not by that much. If you want to run, then hope they can't run faster than you and don't have something nasty to throw at your retreating body.


when you go to move I can feel you tense just a tad, feel your energy ad bam I am in before you. I believe it is a partial fallacy to say that speed equals power however.
This was mentioned on the original thread, but I'll bring it up again - you don't tense when you strike. Power may not equal speed, but it is certainly a distinct part of the equation.


The problem is many wingchun schools and instructors just dont really understand the concepts behind sensitivity. That's why some of these guys train to be so fast!
'Many' WC schools, eh? So.. in that case, you could list some? Or are you going purely off what people on here have said? I'm very interested to know if any of us are included in this blanket statement of yours..? I'm sure everyone will be understanding enough to realise that you're only stating your opinion if you'd like to name some, just in case you're thinking you might upset some people.

[anerlich]

It is my belief that most wing chun people have less then 1% of the sensitivity they could have.

Yeah right, and 90% of real fights go to the ground.

Why was it necessary to have a second thread on this subject? Did you feel you were losing the argument on the first?

If I am not mistaken, your point is that in your opinion it is more important to train sensitivity and structure rather than speed, strength and technique. You've made that point about 100 times over using various different points to say the same thing.

I see what you're saying (duh). You don't need to say it so often!

[pvwingchun]

My point being that on the street you may not be able to make contact and have that sensitivity. Then what? WC is not a sport to me personally.

Once again I do not care how good your sensitivity is if you are not fast enough to counter or beat the attack you are beat even if you feel me move first. It takes a combination of all techniques, precision speed and sensitivity to be effective. I am not fast by any sense of the word but I have other students tell me I could feel you move before I could see it but was unable to stop you and vice versa. This is because we were not fast enough in this instance to counter.

And I will pose the question again, What happens if our skill, technique and sensitivity are approximately equal? C'mon don't dodge the question, say it, the faster will get there quicker:D :D :D

[dbulmer]

R5a,
You asserted some WC guys don't undertsand the principles of sensitivity. My point was that they do. They prefer to build upon a solid foundation before progressing to Chi Sao. We don't disagree on this point except I thought you were less than generous to differences in training methods.

Power=Speed+Body momentum. Speed for me is independent of sensitivity. Sensitivity gives me the roadmap, speed + structure gives me the vehicle. Timing gives me the impact and splat! is the result.

To be effective you need both- one in isolation is not enough generally.
Also, as my skill level improves I won't attack unless I am confident I'll hit - it's wasted energy otherwise but when I do attack I might only have a small window to play with - when that time comes speed comes into play. I will want to land efficiently and I don't want to give my opponent too many second chances.

[black and blue]

Early I wrote: "The level of bridge contact should, IMHO, be minimal. Chi Sau is a vital drill, but I have to ask Red, when someone's swinging in with hooks and jabs, and is intent on taking off your head, how much 'sensitivity' are you using to deal with the first punch?"

(Well, if Red5Angel can give himself a thumbs up, I can repost
:) )

And as pvwingchun said: "Once again I do not care how good your sensitivity is. If you are not fast enough to counter or beat the attack, you are beat even if you feel me move first."

What am I trying to say? Well, isn't there a WC saying along the lines of: "You move first, but I get there first."

Speed and the ability to deal with it without contact is of prime importance. A fellow wingchunner I know went to Hong Kong a few months back and trained with Ip Chun's students. He said almost the entire lesson was chi sau. As a result their Chi Sau was first rate... but I wonder how well they deal with bridging the gap and negating the first strike?

All the sensitivity in the world won't help you if we have no contact and I throw the fastest jab known to man (not saying I possess it :)).

Your precision will be great, your sensitivity first class, your root deep... and your eye black. ;)

[Mithrandir]

Originally posted by red5angel
RR - of course there are the genetically gifted out there who just have an edge. with those always in the back of our mind we must assume that wingchun should be made accessible, and can be made accessible to anyone, like you said, there is no need for those gifts, just good hard work.
The idea is that with time, your sensitivity can overcome speed, even natural speed. Your root and body unity can overcome weakness and allow you to be powerful.

TjD - IMHO good technique comes FROM the sensitivity, relaxation, body unity and root.

I realized something this weekend. I am not a small guy, about 5'10" 205 lbs, I used to wieght lift a lot but now I do alot of situps pushups and pullups to maintain good health. now, this keeps me strong, but I have noticed that while doing the forms or what have you, my body has a natural tenseness to it, because of all the muscle building work I do. But it has its limits. With internal power you dont limit yourself to you muscle power. I stopped all of this and this weekend for the first time I have fealt like my body has finally started to really relax!

Let me get this straight...strength isn't needed? I agree to this. You seem to have been saying this for sometime now...and you just stopped your personal strength training not two weeks ago? You seem to be contradicting yourself. So you condemn everyone else and you are just beginning to feel like you are really relaxing---after one week? You learn fast! I stand humbled before you. You have been training for two years? How long have you been doing chi sau training? You really feel like you have that much ability that you can say that nearly all are bad...and you only have two years experience. Is this your opinion or are you repeating some other's words? How many schools have you been to? Two, five, ten, ok how about twenty? You are speaking to an internationally based forum here. Have you traveled that much?:confused:

[red5angel]

Rill, no need to name names on this board. I say if you ask the question then ask it of yourself first, if you past the test then look around you.

Anerlich - I posted again for two reasons, first I had done some thinking and was hoping to clarify and two the other thread was prettty much hijacked. This thread seems to have gone pretty well actually, alot of discussion here.

pvwingchun - if you want to be realistic, then there is always out there who is better then you, and there are many variables. You could be having a bad day, your opponent could be tired, things are never equal.

Black and Blue - I know what you are saying about the jab. the idea is that a good wingchun man can get that contact, and all he will need is an instant of contact.

Mithrandir - would you like my resume? or would a quick rundown be sufficient for you? I have been too almost all 50 states of the US, several countries in the middle east and Central Africa as well as australia.
As for relaxing, I have found since giving up my strength training that my body has begun to relax more. Just this morning I caught myself continuously tense in the chest and kept having to remind myself to relax but it is coming along.

Ultimatley what I am saying is that with sensitivity you do not need speed. Black and Blue said it, you move first but I get there first. My point is in that saying, you just have to think about it and try it out a little.

[pvwingchun]

If you think that you don't need speed with your sensitivity so be it.
Ultimatley what I am saying is that with sensitivity you do not need speed. Black and Blue said it, you move first but I get there first.
Exactly but this will only happen if you are faster than your opponent because if you are not faster then you cannot arrive first. But I feel for you if you think that your sensitivity is all you need, no offense but IMHO I think you are being misled or don't understand your principles fully. This principle is also about speed and not just about sensitivity. Speed and sensitivity work together they are paired, without one the other is useless. There is always more than one aspect to each principle. Sometimes there are multiple levels to each you just need to explore them.

[red5angel]

pvwingchun - you and I may be looking at the same thing from two different points of view. I would say that speed comes from sensitivity, and so there is no reason to do speed trainin as you are doing it through sensitivity training, it stems naturally from this. Doing speed drills and such in my mind is just a waste of time because you could be doing sensitivity or something more important. The speed comes but it developes through your other training.

[pvwingchun]

OK?? Possible?? Maybe?????????

Anyway good debate;)

[red5angel]

I agree, good debate, some others had some good things to say as well. hopefully I can get around your area sometime and we can touch hands and test our theories!

[Mithrandir]

Red

Mithrandir - would you like my resume? or would a quick rundown be sufficient for you? I have been too almost all 50 states of the US, several countries in the middle east and Central Africa as well as australia.
As for relaxing, I have found since giving up my strength training that my body has begun to relax more. Just this morning I caught myself continuously tense in the chest and kept having to remind myself to relax but it is coming along.

You didn't answer my question. Have you attended Wing Chun schools in all of these places--or was this during your military time? My point about the strength training was that you just recently stopped it---after you had been putting everyone else down for strength training. You contradict yourself. How long have you been training Chi Sau? So how many schools have you been to?

[red5angel]

Mithrandir, some of that was in the military, some was not. I have not been to any schools out side of the states but visited I would say close to 15 or 16 across the midwest and southwest.
My 'strength' training consisted of pushups and situps in the morning to warmup before my wingchun. Recently I have been studying more about the softness of internal arts and after some good instruction and good information I decided to try an experiment and stop doing those to see how I felt. In just a few short days I have started to feel more relaxed, my body is less tight, not totally relaxed, I imagine that must take some time yet.

[popsider]

red5angel can I ask what kind of chi sao you have progressed to in your school. Are you doing free chi sao yet ?

[red5angel]

not since I started over with Carl, had to start completely over with the basics! Before that I did about a year and a half of chi sao, or so they called it. ;)

[Rill]

Rill, no need to name names on this board. I say if you ask the question then ask it of yourself first, if you past the test then look around you.
I can certainly answer that question for myself, but whether or not you'd agree is another matter. Of course, I can say whatever I like, but I doubt you'll believe me with your preconceived notions of what every school in the world aside from those of your lineage are like.


I have not been to any schools out side of the states but visited I would say close to 15 or 16 across the midwest and southwest.
Okaaay then.. Sifu Jim Fung has 16 schools in Sydney alone, not counting the other schools around Australia, instructors of his who aren't officially affiliated with his organisation, or the other schools in Sydney like Anerlichs (who also have branches in other cities) or Susanna Ho's. Lets take a conservative estimate and say that there are another ... oh... 16 schools in the entirety of Australia.

Let's pretend, shall we, that these 32 schools in Australia and the 16 schools you've visited are the only schools in the world, meaning you'd have visited a total of one third of all the WC schools in the world. Lets's take a look at some of your more generalised statements again, shall we?

'most wing chun people have less then 1% of the sensitivity they could have'
'many sort of brush over it in a rush to get to chi sau and sparring'
'As for Chi sau ... many schools, and students teach or are taught this before they are ready.'
'Too many people want thier wingchun house to look good ... they didnt work the basics hard enough and felt ... that they didnt need good basics to move on.'
'even some of the so-called descent schools are not so good ... A good portion of the instructors I have met shouldnt be teaching at all!'

And I only had to go through two threads to find all those!

Not only does the claim of 'many' and 'most' sound ridiculous and offensive, it's mathematically unsound. If you don't like my comment on your statements, take a moment to ponder and ask yourself whether 33.3% qualifies as 'most'.

Coming back to reality and the fact that there are probably more than 32 schools that you haven't visited (I believe Germany has quite a few), then your statements have no basis either in fact or informed opinion.

While I'm quite happy to read your posts that discuss things, I'm probably not the only one who wants to see you drop this superior attitude of "we do it right and the rest of you don't" - not only is your opinion of 'most' flawed, you don't have the experience after 2 years to know what's good, whether it's relating to instructors or not. I still hear my Sifu tell me how his pivoting is crap, and that he's still learning SLT after more than 20 years, so there's no way you're qualified to tell me whether or not my WC is good or I'm working the basics enough.

Finally, getting back to the original topic of speed, I'd like you to tell me where your sensitivity comes into play if someone puts a punch in before you can put your guard up to contact it? And today's winning answer is.. it doesn't!

[TjD]

Originally posted by red5angel
pvwingchun - you and I may be looking at the same thing from two different points of view. I would say that speed comes from sensitivity, and so there is no reason to do speed trainin as you are doing it through sensitivity training, it stems naturally from this. Doing speed drills and such in my mind is just a waste of time because you could be doing sensitivity or something more important. The speed comes but it developes through your other training.


red, your starting to see what i was saying; however instead of being close minded, allow yourself to realize that pv is right as well; and youll come to the conclusion i stated before:

speed, sensitivity, relaxation, technique, precision are all interconnected, if you improve one correctly (in the wing chun way) your improving the other 4

if you do a speed drill right, youll be improving your technique and relaxation, which will improve your sensitivity and relaxation, which in turn will improve your precision

chi sau when done properly improves all 5 - which is why it is such an important drill

[anerlich]

Not intending to be a smartar$e, but there are plenty more than you mention in Oz:

* lots of Wong Shun Leung Lineage (Barry Lee, David Peterson, John Muir etc.)
* WT
* Others like Greg Tsoi, Barry Lee, Felix Leong and their students
* Guys that teach it in conjunction with other stuff like Lawrence Lee, Tom Lo, David Crook)

Once again trying to support not denigrate your argument.

BTW, as the quote in my .sig indicates, red5angel, by his own admission, has been studying "good" (Carl's) Wing Chun for only 7-8 months. Draw your own conclusions, I did!

[Rill]

Yeah, I was just trying to pull a quick number off the top of my head - I know Stefan Fisher teaches at least one WT school down in Sydney, one of Barry Lee's students heads the other school in Newcastle (although apparently there's a new player or two up here now) with another student down in Sydney (can't remember his last name but it's Theo someone - vts could probably help out with this), Tony Bardakos has a student of his teaching in Darwin, and I left out all the William Cheung schools and others like David Peterson down in Melbourne/Victoria, too. Apparently there's a few schools up in Brisbane aside from the ones associated with your guys, and I think there's a school in Perth, but I'm not sure. Maybe someone should create a comprehensive list..

It's probably more like 50 schools total, but if I'd gone with 50 then the math wouldn't have worked out as nicely ;)

As for drawing my own conclusions - I've already considered getting in on this wheelie bin action with you and vts. Maybe we could have group therapy days once a week where we meet up somewhere and all take turns?

[red5angel]

Rill, Anerlich, I think you guys missed the point. If visiting several schools I still see no good wingchun, then what sorts of conclusions can you draw? Now compare notes with a few other students and teachers and you get a good idea of what I am talking about....
Anerlich, as for the quote in your sig, I think you should read it again and look at total time. The difference is I found something that was good, light years ahead of what I was practicing, and in my opinion it is light years ahead of what most people are practicing. And of course its good enough that I dont have to mix my art with others to cover holes.........
TjD - I do understand what you are saying, but I still disagree that they are necessarily mutual. Its ok though, we are allowed to disagree ;)

[yuanfen]

Jedi Knight;sez


Rill, Anerlich, I think you guys missed the point.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Just maybe- they couldnt pare a dime-not red's anyway.
Careful- he may have visited Cape Canaveral... and we could
have 200 lectures on rocket science.

Poor Ip Man- if he only had some visits in his first seven months
to and from Ohio and learned some taichi work.
How wunnerful wunnerful wing chun coulda been.
yuanfen

[Rill]

I think you guys missed the point. If visiting several schools I still see no good wingchun, then what sorts of conclusions can you draw?
How about that,

a) you have very limited experience in regards to evaluating what is 'good'
b) it's several schools out of the hundreds of schools out there and it's just plain wrong to make blanket statements about the rest of the world based on this.

If you saw a red Ferrari while walking down the street one day, would you assume all Ferraris are red? How about all cars?

What if you were used to driving a Renault (no offence to the Renault drivers out there) and then one day someone showed you a BMW? How do you know that there aren't better cars out there like a Porsche if you've never seen them?

I am all out of car analogies, so I shall retire to beat my head against the wall.

[Axiom]

Originally posted by red5angel
Rill, Anerlich, I think you guys missed the point. If visiting several schools I still see no good wingchun, then what sorts of conclusions can you draw?I'm getting the impression that a few people around here aren't that confident in your ability to recognise wing chun as good or bad, so maybe you're arguing along the wrong lines here.

[yuanfen]

But but- celery and granola can improve speed!!

[S.Teebas]

"I studied chop saki wingchun for about a year and a half. Then I got hooked up with my school in Minneapolis and met Carl and I have been doing his stuff for about 7-8 months ..." red5angel discusses his vast experience before delivering another lecture on Wing Chun

LOL... geez didnt know he was only a few months student. Red5angel gives the impression he's one of Carl.D's top students.
Talk about bad advertising.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[red5angel]

Rill, if I saw a few ferraris and they were all red I could safely assume most ferraris are red. If I asked around and everyone else said all they ever saw were red ferraris, then I could assume I was correct.

You guys are working of the wrong premise and the wrong ideals. Instead of taking a statement and blowing it out of proportion, evaluate the facts. For example, 7-8 months with Carl, but almost 3 years doing the art. I am sure most of you have become quite good in what it is you do but if you are doing 10 years of bad MA then you are still doing bad MA, sorry to say that and put it out on the table but there you go. You can practice as hard and as long as you want but if it sucks it sucks.

Poor people who think they are studying Yip Man wing chun. Learn the system and call yourself a sifu doesnt sound like the right way to go to me, learn the system its principles and apply them. Its all well and good to be all buddy buddy and freindly to people, and as nice as it is to say its cool that you do it different and thats ok, its not realistic. Like I said, am I doing wingchun if I am flying throught the air and doing all sorts of flips and fancy kicks? I can call it wing chun, and for most of you that would be 'ok' but for me, I will do the real thing and learn the real deal. For some of you who get the chance to check out Ken or Carl, you will see what it is I am talking about, for the rest, I hope you are studying good wingchun but chances are you are not. I am not in the art ot make friends and get wealthy, I am in the art to learn to fight. to fight means you can be gentleman, but if you fight someone and put him down on the ground a few times, are you going to pick him up, dust him off and tell him its ok what he does? Not me, if we fight and I keep knocking you down, something is wrong.
Of course I could always cross train into BJJ or wrestling, or how about ballet dancing? They have some pretty kicks and wow does it look good.If this offends you, then you need to ask yourself why that is? I am sure there is plenty out there that is good, and maybe, just maybe better then what I am studying now, but I guarentee and stand by my belief that most of it is not.

[pvwingchun]

Question. How do you know your WC is good? Just because all you have seen is bad you have no good to compare it to but what you currently practice. And how do you know what you practice is good maybe it is just better than what you have seen so you think it is good. It is an interpretation that works for you. We all study WC and yes we all have stylistic differences that doesn't make it wrong it only makes it different. It is an interpretation of what your elders were handed. Your teachers simply interpret what they were taught. I truly doubt that what you are being taught is exactly as your instructors were taught. Your life history has a huge effect on how you interpret things. Two people see a car wreck yet they have completely different stories of what happened, they interpret it differently. Bruce Lee once said to potential instructors of his art, "Don't teach what I have taught you, teach what you have learned."

Plus as someone who studied graduate level statistics your sample set is way off. So you cannot jusge all of the world by a handful of schools in a small area..

[Rill]

Hi red,

If you ever get the chance to come to Australia, I urge you to travel to Newcastle. While you're here, I'll show you around the school I train at. It's run by Tony Bardakos, who trained under Greg Tsoi (of Yip Man/WSL), and later under Jim Fung. Tony represented Sifu Fung at the conference in '99, you can see him in a lot of the footage of the crowd, and he has some speaking time on the first cd and some demo time on the second. He's in the family photo right behind his Sigung, Tsui Seung Tin.
Next to Tony in the footage (and the photo too, I think) is Bill Dowding, who runs the other school in Newcastle. Bill trained under Sifu Barry Lee - if you haven't heard of Barry Lee then I would suggest you ask Carl or Ken about him, or David Peterson may even be able to give you a quick run down on Lee Sifu. I'll also take you over to Bill's school while you're here, and that way you can decide for yourself if we're doing 'proper' Wing Chun down here in sunny Newcastle, Australia.

After that, I'll see if Anerlich would like to take you and show you how they do things down in Sydney (hey, it's only 2.5 hours by train, so come see the Olympic city of 2000! ;) ) - that way you'll be able to show them in person why their BJJ and other 'wrong' WC techniques don't work using your extensive knowledge and skill. When you're done there, we'll go visit Susanna Ho's school for yet another look at 'wrong' WC - Susanna trained under Tsui Seung Tin, so I'm sure you'll be able to find something wrong with her technique somewhere.

If you can't make it down here, then we'll possibly be at the opening of the museum in November - if you went there you'd really be able to judge how a large portion of the international WC community plies their skills, so I won't be offended if you decide to go there instead.

However, until you do so, I'd like you to replace all of your statements in the future such as 'most WC schools do not do X, but we do' to 'most WC schools do not do X, but we do, although I'm not sure how they do it down in Australia so perhaps someone from that wonderful continent could share with me since I haven't been to any schools there', for the relevant X. I'm sure you won't mind obliging to avoid insulting the skill and training methods of some of the most respected WC Sifu's and their students out there.

If you're making your travel plans, please let me know in advance so I can clear my schedule! Happy training!


----------------
I would like to apologise to all of the WC practioners and their students I have mentioned above, I am well aware that their achievements and skill speak for themselves, and I intend no disrespect whatsoever to them or their lineage.

[red5angel]

pvwingchun - we could argue all day about good wingchun and bad wingchun really. I have seen plenty of bad, and know this is much much better. In the information age we can get a good idea of what is going on in the world and make judgements from that. In my defense I am talking more about what is going on in th US, I have no idea what is goig on in other parts of the world, it just seems that some of the guys from the land down under are a little sensitive ;) just teasin guys!
Regardless, it si my opinion and I have not see anything to change it yet, maybe sometime in the future who knows but for now it is how I feel.
Also, While I admire Bruce Lee for his acting accomplishments, his martial arts was questionable. he did not finish wingchun before allowing his ego to interrupt his training and decide to go off on a tangent, no offense to some of you who practice JKD but to me it seems more an ironic joke then anything else. Bruce Lee was lost and trying to find his way home and I have always said it wouldnt have surprised me, if he had lived, that he would have found his way back to the wing chun family.

[red5angel]

rill, thanks for the invite, seriously. PM me with your email and I will tuck it in a folder I have of people around my country and around the world. I do a lot of travelling and so would like to start dropping in to do a little training with people if possible. I already told Anerlich I would be more then happy to come and see what they are doing at his place. I dont agree with the mixed martial arts mentality but if he enjoys doing it then whoes to stop him right?
You could be right about Australia Rill, who knows? I do know that in the US most of it is crap. I did make a statement to pvwingchun on this thread about that so that might sooth you a little........

[pvwingchun]

I agree somewhat about Bruce Lee but he was as much a philisopher as a MA, IMO. I am simply using the statment to clarify a point ( I can't quote without identifying the source) no need to put the man down.

[red5angel]

pvwingchun - I dont mean to put him down I just think he is overrated. he did a good thing by getting the CMA out into the public eye through his films, but as with alot of people who are famous and die, his story has grown and become more grandoise in the telling.
He was indeed a philosopher as well and he had many good things to say, however I do think he did some damage with his ideas. he wasnt finished forming his fighting srategy or working through the details. Who knows where he would be right now if he were alive. Unfortunately we only get a snapshot of who he was at the point in his life where he died.

[Axiom]

Originally posted by red5angel
If this offends you, then you need to ask yourself why that is?Hmm... maybe you're just being offensive?

[red5angel]

Nope, but I can see where some might be offended.

[Axiom]

Originally posted by red5angel
Nope, but I can see where some might be offended. Well, it would seem to be a matter of opinion. There is evidently some division on the subject of whether you know everything or not, including when you are or aren't being offensive.

[red5angel]

Well, I wouldnt let it get to you Axiom, like everyone says who knows who you are really talking to on these forums really. I think sometimes there are people here who like to talk a big game but dont have a lot to show for it. Take me for instance, I only have 8 months of real wingchun ;)

[anerlich]

I already told Anerlich I would be more then happy to come and see what they are doing at his place. I dont agree with the mixed martial arts mentality but if he enjoys doing it then whoes to stop him right?

Certainly not you, redboy!

This thread has taught me much.

My teacher's art is deficient because he "needs" to mix it with something else (he didn't "need" to, he chose to. He's a LOT better positioned to make that decision than r5a ever will be).

Bruce Lee was a loser who lost the WC path (the fact that he had to leave HK to avoid probs with certain criminal elements had nothing to do with it).

Red doesn't agree with my "mentality". That I regard as a plus.

OMG :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Redd]

Originally posted by red5angel
If visiting several schools I still see no good wingchun, then what sorts of conclusions can you draw?

He he he. He thinks there is only one obvious answer.

[yuanfen]

Conclusions?
Sometimes the problem is in what is observed, sometimes in the observer and sometimes both.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by anerlich

Bruce Lee was a loser who lost the WC path

Hi Anerlich,

I agree that he lost the WC path, but not that Bruce Lee was a loser. His career as a MA teacher, fighter, and movie icon seems to run contrary to that statement.



(the fact that he had to leave HK to avoid probs with certain criminal elements had nothing to do with it).

How'd this thread become "libel Bruce Lee?" He left HK to go to school in his homeland of America. Avoiding criminal elements had nothing to do with it. You might be confusing him with his friend, William Cheung. No offense to WC's folks. Like Yip Man, Bruce Lee is dead. Can we refrain from requiring the dead to defend their lives? :)



Red doesn't agree with my "mentality". That I regard as a plus.
OMG :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
LOL! :) And I don't agree with Red5Angel's spamming approach to marketing and mass (mis)communication.

Regards,

[anerlich]

Grendel, the quotes you got from my posts were me paraphrasing what red5angel said earlier in the thread. I strongly disagree with the sentiment he expressed.

But several biographies (e.g. "fighting spirit", Bruce Thomas) have friends of the Lee family paying to have his name expunged from a list of known gangsters before he could get his visa to emigrate, which his family wanted as he was getting into too much trouble, too many fights.

Probably more than half the world's current MA practitioners would be doing something else if it weren't for Bruce Lee.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by anerlich
Grendel, the quotes you got from my posts were me paraphrasing what red5angel said earlier in the thread. I strongly disagree with the sentiment he expressed.

Hi Anerlich,

My mistake. I must have missed an earlier post.


But several biographies (e.g. "fighting spirit", Bruce Thomas) have friends of the Lee family paying to have his name expunged from a list of known gangsters before he could get his visa to emigrate, which his family wanted as he was getting into too much trouble, too many fights.

Everyone needs a "gimmick" to get their "biography" published. ;)


Probably more than half the world's current MA practitioners would be doing something else if it weren't for Bruce Lee.
Amen to that. :) Apologies again for my misunderstanding.

Regards,

[wingchunalex]

"it doesn't matter who is faster, it's who gets there first"-my sifu.
if you have to speed up to make your techniques work you don't really know your techniques that well, you're panicing. you should be able to go at a moderate pase to apply all your techniques, even when the other person is going fast. you shouldn't have to go lightning or warp speed. if your techinques work then they work at a moderate speed. if they don't you just have to do more repitition of them. it just take more time and more training.