Accupressure Pt. Takedown

[African Tiger]

Just had to share an experience with Sifu Totten this weekend.

I'd missed an entire month of training due to this horrible movie on which I was working. Apparently Sifu Totten missed his favorite punching bag, because he decided to come behind me and demonstrate the effects of tapping "Stomach 9".

Two seconds later I came to, looking up from the floor at my fellow students - many of whom saw the humor in my lying in a six foot heap. :o

Strangely enough, I've had the runs all day today...? Does this point actually effect the stomach?

[gazza99]

Your sifu is not very considerate, or intelligent if he is doing ST 9 KO's on his students. Long term effects of this strike can be devastating-for example several years later the recipient can have a stroke and die from the gradual disintegration of the internal wall of the carotid artery. St9 Also has a long term effect on the emotional energy, and can cause a detached feeling.

Regards,
Gary

[Black Jack]

Curious,

Where is the documented modern medical proof and selected case studies which showcase that this ST 9 ko can cause a stroke and the person can die from the gradual disintergation of the internal wall of the carotid artery?

Since you stated this as a fact I am wondering where you get this dim mak experimentation from?

[Stacey]

blackjack, how good of you to volunteer to get scientific data on this point. Rather than looking at something from another world view, you are wanting objective data. Well, who better to be a guinnea pig? Why don't you go to their school and let them practice on you. If in 30 years, you get no stroke, then we have one case study suggesting that its all a bunch of bs.

[Black Jack]

You still ****y about the lau thing:D

World views have nothing to do with facts, I am not a believer in one touch knock-outs and dim mak death touches, but if something could be showcased with emprical data, then that at least shows the potential of such material.

If you want to look at the possible medical implications of martial strikes then you should check out sports medicine. 21st century medical and anatomical knowledge can answer these questions.

[Stacey]

fair enough, but what if it still works?


before we knew about vitamins, we still ate food.

[Black Jack]

We have TONS of proof on how vitamens, minerals, and nutritional supplements works.

Where is the proof on delayed death touches in relation to martial strikes?

It should be a easy question?

If someone says that a person can die from a touch in a specific location or a one touch knockout, in locations that many people both in athletic events and everyday actvities have been hit in and from which do not die or get knocked out, it should require a bit more serious info than just because "my sifu said so".

Football players, boxers, junior high, high school, college wrestlers, thai fighters, hockey players, rugby players, mma fighters, shan shou fighters, all atheltics events, people would be dropping like flies. This kind of info is even more important to discuss in self defense situations, where it is hard to pull anything off with fine motor skill, let alone tag a specific meridan that will cause a dudes hair to fall out and for him to die 21 days later at noon.

I have yet to have a person knock me out with a touch.

[gazza99]

"am not a believer in one touch knock-outs and dim mak death touches, but if something could be showcased with emprical data, then that at least shows the potential of such material. "

Who has asked you to believe in one touch knockouts? I certainly have not. It actually takes a STRIKE to create an effect. I only ask you believe in western medicine, and basic anatomy.

As far as case studies do your own research-I have already given you some terms..here are a few more to look into

Vasovagal faint
Nucleus tractus solitarii
reticularis parvicellularis
Vagus nerve
parasympathetic effects on heart
cardiac arrest
glossopharyngeal neuralgia
ventricular fibrillation


Gary R.

[gazza99]

You could get a George Dillman, or Rick Moneymaker tape in which they demo these KO's. I think they even have KO clips on there sites.. Evan P. might as well www.kyusho.com/library.htm

Gary

[Black Jack]

I am just stating my opinion, maybe if I was marketing tapes for the publics consumption I would be a little offensive, though there really is no need to be.

I don't make my judgements on video or internet demo's by same sided groups. My money is much better spent on other pruchases like my morning coffee.

To see a good look/perspective on why these group demo's are a bunch of hookey you should check out the post by Darren Levine which is in the reality section of KFO. I believe it is titled fraud in the martial arts of something of that nature.

Which leads to the fact that you still did not answer my question to your comment on how a person could go into a stroke and die from the gradual disintergation of the carotid artery due to this ST 9 dim mak touch/or strike.

I can throw out western medical lingo as well but that is not answering any questions.

femoral hernia,
abdominal membrane,
thrombosis,
peritonitis,
hydrostatic pressure,
subclavian artery,
phrenic nerve,
hemorrhagic shock,

See, its fun:D

[African Tiger]

Well as far as proof of one touch knockouts, look no further than AT.

I've never been knocked unconscious in my life, and that's after 11 years of kick boxing (the old way, when they used to allow round kicks to the head), yet one little tap on the above mentioned point sent me to the floor. I regained consciousness within two seconds, nevertheless, it happened.

As far as constant tapping of vital accupressure points, I can assure you Sifu T has no interest in actually injuring his students seriously. In fact, he made sure to "correct" the point as soon as I got to my feet. I felt a little weird for a few hours, then I was back to normal...except of course for the runny sh!t I've had all day :(

[gazza99]

"I am just stating my opinion, maybe if I was marketing tapes for the publics consumption I would be a little offensive, though there really is no need to be. "

Im not offended at all, just appalled at your willingness to critisize something you do not understand, or are even willing to research, oh, and my one tape(not a KO theme) and agressive marketing strategy (only my own web page) is a real market upset, give me a break.

"I don't make my judgements on video or internet demo's by same sided groups. My money is much better spent on other pruchases like my morning coffee. "

Well, our groups are only same sided in the fact that we know the points work, that seems to be the only thing we can agree on! Oh, and I like coffee as well....

"To see a good look/perspective on why these group demo's are a bunch of hookey you should check out the post by Darren Levine which is in the reality section of KFO. I believe it is titled fraud in the martial arts of something of that nature. "

I cant find that thread, please link me! I cant say I agree with these things being demod on standing dummies, and some of these groups do market "dim-mak made easy" type stuff. But perhaps make their living doing this stuff. I couldnt feed myself on what I make teaching. The fact is your art should work with or without dim-mak.

"Which leads to the fact that you still did not answer my question to your comment on how a person could go into a stroke and die from the gradual disintergation of the carotid artery due to this ST 9 dim mak touch/or strike. "

I simply dont want to sift through the library. Im not talking Qi here, simply western medicine, ask a Dr. Surely you can agree hitting people in the neck and knocking them out is not healthy? The short answer was based on my instructors research and published in his books.


"I can throw out western medical lingo as well but that is not answering any questions. "

Well then how about doing more reading and forming a real coherent opinion not based on conjecture? I know this stuff works, I dont have to convince myself further, i have used it in real combat, and not in dangerous demos.

Gary

[gazza99]

Im sorry but the long term damage from strikes like ST 9 are not just "corrected" by revival points. Its not healthy and is irresponsible of your sifu.

Gary

[African Tiger]

Well after 40 years of kung fu, I'm sure he knows what he's doing:)

After all, I'm still here, aren't I? Except I'm going to have to reglaze my toilet after all this ****ting I've been doing. Are you guys sure Stomach 9 doesn't release the bowels?

[gazza99]

40 years of kung-fu definately qualifies him as a medical Doctor, why dont you ask him to perform surgery on you!

[Black Jack]

You seem to mistake me asking "a single question" for a person who is "unwilling to research something I do not understand."

Which by itself is FAR from the truth since asking questions is research.:)

I do lots of my own research on different subjects, some of it in fact on the medical implications of martial strikes based on modern sports medicine and its understanding of anatomy, trauma, and those related effects. Nothing vastly indepth, just enough to add a deeper understanding to what I am hitting, and what real world effects it has caused in real world circumstances, based off of real world emprical evidence.

Evidence which can often be found in the medical seciton of any local community college, univirsity or decent city library. The link to Darren's post is there, try a page or two down, his other post on the same page is one about NLP and Hypnosis in martial arts, something which has a bit to do with these demo's, just as if you don't want to go through your library, I don't feel like searching for a post. ;)

You stated you have used your dim mak skills in "combat", do you care to elaborate on your encounters and the effects you have seen, combat is a pretty heavy term, I reserve it for attempted rapes, murders, muggings, car jackings, home invasions, cops in a shootout, soliders in the middle of a battlefield, that sort of thing.

[gazza99]

"You seem to mistake me asking "a single question" for a person who is "unwilling to research something I do not understand."

Which by itself is FAR from the truth since asking questions is research. "
Fair enough!


"the same page is one about NLP and Hypnosis in martial arts, something which has a bit to do with these demo's, just as if you don't want to go through your library, I don't feel like searching for a post. "
lol..ok, ill look again.


"You stated you have used your dim mak skills in "combat", do you care to elaborate on your encounters and the effects you have seen, combat is a pretty heavy term, I reserve it for attempted rapes, murders, muggings, car jackings, home invasions, cops in a shootout, soliders in the middle of a battlefield, that sort of thing."

Ok, well I refer to combat in the same light, I was going to be mugged, I used Triple warmer 23 to KO the person, I hit him, on the point, he started falling, and I ran the other way. I wasnt going to stick around to see how long the person stayed out!


Gary

[Black Jack]

May I ask, so I am not lost and can better understand your example, what tech did you use on triple warmer 3 and where is the triple warmer 3 in basic western terms.

That way I can more relate.

Cheers,

[gazza99]

TW 23 is at the end of the eyebrow(end nearest the ear), just above it in a little hollow, there should be a diagram on my site. The point is struck downward with a small weapon like the palm heel.

Gary

[SevenStar]

I believe that they exist, after seeing dr yang in action. I haven't seen a one touch knock out, but I have seen the power of pressure points, and against resisting opponents. I think that beginner and intermediate level students should not risk them in a self defense situation due to the precision involved, but if you are at a level where you can strike the points precisely without trouble, go for it.

[greendragon]

BlackJack, maybe you could use the money you got for that dead hippies foot to finance a trip to Missouri where Master Oyata could demonstrate one light touch knock out on you first hand. Hopefully he will revive you afterwards. It was developed in combat and always works. Only taught to black belts for obvious reasons.

[Mojo]

African Tiger
Don't worry about any long term affects from just a touch on st9. The long term damage is usually associated with strikes to the carotid artery where the arterial wall is weakened. A softer strike on st9 without penetrating to affect the carotid shouldn't harm you.
Sifu Totten can be trusted not to hurt you, he is a good instructor.

[African Tiger]

but it seems as if all the worrying was done by Gazza :)

Actually St 9 isn't on the carotid artery, as Sifu T and I were discussing after class. He lightly touched the carotid on myself and a few of my fellow students so we could see the difference, and how much more damage striking the carotid would do if manipulated.

[NorthernMantis]

Black Jack-

Umm I don't mean to be rude but didn't you read AT's posts correctly? Our friend AT already explained on two seperate posts that he got knocked out by touch. How much more proff do you need?
Well as far as proof of one touch knockouts, look no further than AT.

I've never been knocked unconscious in my life, and that's after 11 years of kick boxing (the old way, when they used to allow round kicks to the head), yet one little tap on the above mentioned point sent me to the floor. I regained consciousness within two seconds, nevertheless, it happened.


Not only that but AT has done kickboxing so you know he's not one of those people with wapred blind loyalty.

[Black Jack]

NT,

I can comprehend just fine.

Just because someone posts something on the net does not mean I believe it, nor does it mean that I think it has any deep real world value in realtionship to self defense. Go see the Darren Levine post in the reality section of KFO on NLP and Martial arts fraud.

I have met people on line who say that they have seen Proffessor Savelii turn into a freakin panther spirit, spoke to guys who say they have been blasted across the room with chi, and all sorts of other junk, I just smile and say whatever, its there own time, let them waste it.

I am not talking about understanding the principles of a bodies vital points in an effort to hurt or heal, but where does one back up this esotric info, again info not answered, on these one touch knockouts and delayed death touches, where are all the corpses these people have killed with this skill, how come these one touch knockout points are not incorporated by real world institutions, like the federal government, police, military, mma, that sort of stuff.

How come I have never, nor a LARGE number of people here on this board and all over the place, have not been knocked out by one touch knockouts, empty force or anything else.

Sorry just because I read something does not mean I buy it, other factors would have to be researched and considered in that case study, not just a simple you said it and I believe it.

[gazza99]

But ST 9 lies right over the carotid sinus, I dont know what charts and medical books your instructor is looking at but I just double checked it from two different sources.

Gary

[gazza99]

"Just because someone posts something on the net does not mean I believe it, nor does it mean that I think it has any deep real world value in realtionship to self defense. Go see the Darren Levine post in the reality section of KFO on NLP and Martial arts fraud. "

If this isnt a contradiction I dont know what is, your telling us not to believe whats on the net, then to back up that statement you refer us to a post on the net? Thats amusing. Oh, I found that post, but I see no relevance it the real world use of the points, as I dont do demo's. Perhaps the best thing to do would be for these people that do the demo's to KO people that do not beleive in it at all, like Ken Gullette?

"I have met people on line who say that they have seen Proffessor Savelii turn into a freakin panther spirit, spoke to guys who say they have been blasted across the room with chi, and all sorts of other junk, I just smile and say whatever, its there own time, let them waste it. "

I have to see or feel it to believe it, otherwise I am a complete disbeliever. I even drove down to Texas so Rich Mooney could try his empty force on me. (he couldnt move me), but he did a cool knife trick.


"I am not talking about understanding the principles of a bodies vital points in an effort to hurt or heal,"

Well that is exactly what I am talking about, perhaps you are talking "touch" and empty force, and I am talking about real vital points and human anatomy compiled with good technique and real power.

"but where does one back up this esotric info, again info not answered, on these one touch knockouts and delayed death touches, where are all the corpses these people have killed with this skill, "

I dont beleive in "touch" KO's, but there can be explanations on delayed death, rupture an artery in the head for example and it will take awhile to kill the person. But hey ,whats the use in that, but a gun, or some good poison.

"how come these one touch knockout points are not incorporated by real world institutions, like the federal government, police, military, mma, that sort of stuff. "

I like how you group in MMA with the federal governement and the police. This just shows your bias. Well I have news for you, I am in the millitary and have trained with police, and MMA peeps. They all use these points to one extent or the next.

"How come I have never, nor a LARGE number of people here on this board and all over the place, have not been knocked out by one touch knockouts, empty force or anything else. "

Becuase if there were such thing as empty force or even "touch" KO's it would take quite a bit of training to accomplish, and like many of the good internal chinese arts, those people are few and far between.


"Sorry just because I read something does not mean I buy it, other factors would have to be researched and considered in that case study, not just a simple you said it and I believe it."

That is what we all expect, but we do come here to share knowledge and experiance, If you dont want to take any of that into consideration dont participate, simple enough.

Overall I think you have too mystic of an idea of what pressurepoints and dim-mak is about. Rightly so, as many try and market the more advanced Qi and esoteric aspects of the art for their own gain, even claim no-touch KO's as many have.
Even without the Qi theories the stuff will work. Also the martial art must work WITHOUT the point strike, so even if you try, and miss the point it should not matter as the blow was so powerfull it did damage no matter what location, and of course you do not stop to see if the point worked, you keep going until there is nothing left to hit! A dim-mak point is no substitute for good training, and knowing how to fight. So really it almost becomes a moot point until you reach that level and meet someone capable of teaching you the stuff.

regards,
Gary

[wushu chik]

Uh guys, just to be the bearer of goodwill here....is this really worth all the arguing? Gar~ Sifu Totten is a REALLY good instuctor. I don't think he would ever do anything that would put AT in harms way. AT~ Don't let people do stuff like that anymore without YOU knowing the consequences! Black Jack~ Look it all up, it's on the net. Gary's right about the cardio point. BUT it's not worth arguing over. There's too much arguing on here lately over stupid crap, and this isn't going to solve anything!

~Wen~

[rogue]

Oh no not Rick Moneymaker! I was a Moneymaker student. At the beginning it was OK, mostly what I'd learned in JJ but then it started to get stupid with the claims being made.

"Ok, well I refer to combat in the same light, I was going to be mugged, I used Triple warmer 23 to KO the person, I hit him, on the point, he started falling, and I ran the other way. I wasnt going to stick around to see how long the person stayed out!"

Black Jack, what Gary is trying to say is that he hit some guy in the temple. :D
You may want to look into shiatsu or accupressure which are better documented than Dim Mak. One thing you'll notice is how hard it is to find some of these points even taking your time on a willing patient.

[Merryprankster]

You want to demonstrate their existence?

It's called a double blind study.

The person coming in doesn't know what effect to expect, and the people observing the effects of same don't know what is supposed to happen. There is to be no contact with the demonstrator and the subject or the observers ahead of time.

That's the way you verify this stuff. Personal experience is no good because it's colored by your expectations. Same with something like a seminar. Those people are there, skeptical or not, because they expect some sort of result--they have foreknowledge of the supposed effect.

After the double blind study, you can start getting into whether or not suggestions play a role--for instance, how many people feel woozy when told that pressure point "x" causes you to feel woozy? How many feel full of energy? Nauseous?

STOP ragging on Black Jack for asking that this subject be researched and demonstrated in a scientific, rather than anecdotal, manner. Anecdotal evidence is frequently wrong, and has a tendency, like most oral history, to become greatly exaggerated over time. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Simply enough.

One of the reasons people think Kung Fu is all about death touches and mysterious dim mak is because practitioners immediately treat those who ask that these anecdotes be demonstrated more precisely than in the kwoon or a seminar as though they were rabid, frothing at the mouth detractors, when really, they're suggesting the issue be researched in a far more exacting way than currently is the case.

[Black Jack]

Gary,

For the record you are shifting my words around to fit what you think I believe.

I did not say to believe in the Darren post, I just referenced it for another perspective, take anything on the net with a grain of salt intell you do your own research, that post though is a very educated post, the gent is a high ranking Krav Maga player and hardline researcher of violent crime data, which is why I referenced the post, but nowhere did I say you should believe it, that is for each person to decide on the data presented.

I do because I think the man has merit.

I am not talking about medical and anatomical information coupled with good technique and power, that is a total given and I 100% agree with you, though that given has to be backed by modern research, which lead me to ask you about the dim mak carotid disintergration statement you made. Meaning is your research just a my sifu said so, or is it based in outdated martial guesswork from a long dead past, or is it based on current information we have now, sports medicine, modern anatomical and pathological nervous systems, that sort of thing.

On this post alone is something I find pretty funny, you have two gents who do dim mak, hopefully scholars and researchers, who do not agree on the same thing!!!!!!! Which kinda lead Here leads me to one of my big problems with one-touch knockouts and that other hooha, and its something I have a feeling we might not be to far apart on, all it takes is to look at a old saying.

"The best we can hope for in combat is the worst we do in practice."

For you info, I am not baised with mma, I don't even really follow mma, I was going to put pro football in but I thought that mma might be more specific in regards to our discussion, though pro football would of been just as good. Again I am not fighting you on learning vital points and proper technique and the power to use them, you are preaching to the choir, every good martial art teacher should do that, in fact as I stated you can find the medical data yourself if you have the time. I am just in reference to blanket statements that are not backed up with some kind of data, data which any self respecting ma'ist would be interested in.

Peace and keep up the good fight.

Rogue,

Thats what I was thinking when he wrote it.:D

[gazza99]

I guess we just misunderstand each other, and neither of us feels like digging through our research for the carotid sinus disintegration thing. THats ok, but I refer to my memory from my past reading and contend it is true. Take that for what it is, hitting people in the neck and KO'ing them is not safe, and can have long term effects, that common sense should tell you! The rest I believe we agree on.

Gary

[rogue]

But you can charge more money saying hit triple warmer 23 or heart 3, instead of hit him in the temple or funny bone.:D

[Black Jack]

Gary,

No we actually agree 100% on that, f@ckin with the throat is serious business, you have to be carefull plain and simple, when I am working chops directly to the old voicebox I do them on equipment and the dummy, though people do get softly tagged every once and awhile there and I can tell you from experiance, it sucks.

Its one of the reasons the old cop two-handed billy club choke was outlawed, they would find the prisoner dead in his cell hours later by a hematoma in the sheath that encompasses the jugular, carotid vein and vagus nerve in the neck.

There are numerous effects that can be caused by a blow to the front, side and back of the throat.

Rogue,

You can get twice the billing by calling it posion hand;)

[gazza99]

we can start agreeing on stuff.. that wont get us anywhere!

Ok..controversial topic-define internal and external!

[rogue]

Internal: You hit me and I die two days later,
External: I kill you now but die two days later at your wake.:D

[Knifefighter]

How hard did your instructor strike you?

Where exaclty is stomach 9?

[Mojo]

Knifefighter
Here is the best page I could find on the location of ST9.

http://www.acuxo.com/meridianPictures.asp?point=ST9&meridian=Stomach

[rogue]

Could hitting that point cause the two muscles to briefly contract blocking blood to the brain?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Mojo
Knifefighter
Here is the best page I could find on the location of ST9.

http://www.acuxo.com/meridianPictures.asp?point=ST9&meridian=Stomach

Thanks. If the point is where the little triangle is pointing, that is where the carotoid artery runs and it can cause unconsiousness if you are struck there. It is also thought that a person with atheroschlerosis can be killed by having that area traumatized because plaques may break away from the area and cause a stroke or heart attack. This actually may be the true origin of the "delayed death touch."

You can also slow your heart rate down by pressing there. That is why you check your heart rate at your wrist rather than your neck.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Mojo
Knifefighter
Here is the best page I could find on the location of ST9.

http://www.acuxo.com/meridianPictures.asp?point=ST9&meridian=Stomach

Thanks. If the point is where the little triangle is pointing, that is where the carotoid artery runs and it can cause unconsiousness if you are struck there. It is also thought that a person with atheroschlerosis can be killed by having that area traumatized because plaques may break away from the area and cause a stroke or heart attack. This actually may be the true origin of the "delayed death touch."

You can also slow your heart rate down by pressing there. That is why you check your heart rate at your wrist rather than your neck.