Do You Pull Your Punchs?

[curtis]

How do you punch ?
I believe that all punchs should be done as if for real, (like you would use in areal fight.) full power at all times. The only difference in your punching should be the depth or penetration of the punch. (Control of depth)

I believe your goal should be to punch loosely and relax.

Stiffness only leads to problems, such as, the lack of ability to respond to the unexpected, (if your strike may be blocked.) if you use kinetic energy (stiffness) it will be much slower, and more telegraphic.
The trick of it should be, to transfer energy as efficiently as possible, LOOSELY, to maintain control .
If you teach yourself to pull your punchs, you will find, that in real life you will pull your punchs just like you do in practice.

[SEE that punch , one inch from your nose, that would hurt! Argument won't hold water, if the opponent is trying to remove your head.]

I would like to know what you guys think? Do you pull your punchs?
Just curious.
Sincerely C.A.G.

[apoweyn]

i think you're crossing terminology. controlling the depth of penetration IS pulling a punch. you pull it away from the target before it's allowed to travel all the way through.

that's why we have the phrase, "pulling no punches" applied to debate, for example. if you pull no punches, you go too far. you don't argue stiffly or awkwardly.

semantics aside, i agree with your execution. if for no other reason than the speed with which you can return to a proper guard.

here's a question though: how many people have you seen that did IN SPARRING throw stiff punches? i'm trying to think... i don't think many do really.


stuart b.

p.s. pulling punches to the degree that there's no contact is bad, in my opinion. pulling them so that there's not MAXIMUM contact is not a mistake, to my mind.

[BSH]

Apoweyn:

I can control the depth of my punch without pulling it. I think the question is more along the lines of full extension of strikes.

A boxer rarely fully extends their strikes, whereas my Kung Fu teaches to fully extend.

[apoweyn]

perhaps i don't understand the question then. how do you control the depth of penetration without doing one of these two things?

1) pulling the punch so that it doesn't end at the point it would have otherwise

or

2) throwing the punch from long enough a range that even fully extended, it can't do the damage that it could thrown closer


not trying to be argumentative. i'm guessing that this is strictly a terminology thing.

i'd say that a boxer does extend his strikes. he just doesn't 'lock' or 'stick' them the way a traditional martial artist might. he loosely snaps them. but there's no reason why loose snappy punches can't be pulled.

all that said, i'm very much in favour of making contact with punches rather than pulling them without contact. (i would, however, be fine with pulling them before FULL contact. or alternatively, protective headgear is used, in which case it's all fair game.)


stuart b.

[SSgungfu]

In taichi there are many Jins, or energys. Each jin is directed to accomplish a certain goal in a technique. Learning about these jins could help you in your JKD practice.

1) Drilling jin...
is used when you attack your opponent's cavities. It could be a middle-knuckle strike, but you turn your hand as if drilling into the opponent.

When using drilling jin you DO NOT throw the punch as hard as you can...simply because you don't need to. Cavity strikes are soft targets, and using a knuckle-strike at fullpower could injure your hand.
That type of strike is aimed at the cavity or organ, NOT THRU IT.

2) Breaking jin...
is aimed to break bones (ribs, arms, etc). The energy is directed BEYOND the target for maximum power efficiency. Its like punching thru your opponents face.

With this jin you would use a palm, elbow, fist, forearm...but it is intended on being thrown at full force. One example of this is chopping wood: if you aimed at the wood you were chopping, your blade would get stuck. You need to aim THRU the wood you are chopping.


To learn more about the jins in Taichi, you should pick up Dr. Yang, Jwing Ming's book on Tai Chi Theory and Martial Power. The above is taken from information from his book.

[BSH]

Altough I practice an internal art which includes Ginn's, I don't think that was what Apoweyn was looking for in an answer.

You can adjust your distance by more than just your arm length and extension. Body, feet, hips, shoulders all can be moved or altered to affect you target area.

Proper positioning and adjustments to your body come with large amounts of bag work and sparring practice. It should be a subconscious adjustment which you rely on based on practice and improvement.

[apoweyn]

BSH,

agreed. but as far as i can tell, avoiding full penetration of a target still only comes on two basic varieties: 1) retract your punch prior to its natural end (pulling) or 2) throw it from a range that's further away than you would use for full penetration.

seems to me that anything else is a variation on the theme. whether you change the distance by footwork, hip placement, or any other means, if you aren't going right through a target, it's because the distance was too great or the punch was pulled.

how you make that distance too great or, alternatively, how you pull that punch is a more specific issue.

does that make sense?

cheers.


stuart

[curtis]

Good morning
Apoweyn
My statements about control and depth of penetration when striking comes down to this. ARE YOU
hitting your intended target With full power?
I belive The only difference is , do I hit the surface or to penetrate inside, (again the word control, is the key.)
I see pulling punchs to be, stopping short of the target, or like many do insparriing, to hit lightly only trying for speed. Hitting with out structural integrity. ( But Thats sort of a gray area. ) I guess you must ask yourself , could your punch actually transfer enough energy to take someone out if you wanted to??

Here is a drill I used to play with.

Take a piece of paper, and make a bend in it, then tape it to a wall. The bend will keep paper off the wall, now strike the paper hard. If your hand hits the wall you're not controlling your penetration probably,Hit the surface hard and then recoil with out the hitting the wall.
As your control gets better you can put the paper directly on the wall and hit it, again hitting the paper not the wall.
I find that I try to strike my secondaries shirt but not the skin behind it. And went I am the secondary, I can feel the shock wave from the punch, but no damage to my body or face.

The point is CONTROL., it takes a lot of practice, but when you hit, you are hitting exactly what you want to hit. And your secondary has no doubt about it, YES that would DO IT!

I hope I explanation helps. You understand where IM coming from?
I am interested in hearing your opinions. Thank you for corresponding.
Sincerely C.A.G.

[apoweyn]

curtis,

yeah, i think i get what you're saying. but that drill you described is a practice specifically in pulling punches. if you weren't pulling them, then you'd punch the wall. that's the whole point, yeah? if you wouldn't, then you were simply too far away to hit the wall in the first place.

so you're essentially talking about developing a punch that is 1) structurally sound, 2) properly ranged, and 3) quickly delivered enough that, had you not pulled it, it could have done some serious damage. is that right?

you're also advocating practicing punching with less (or perhaps no) control on occassion. (given appropriate protective gear, obviously) is that right? that way, you do know whether you're capable of throwing a good solid punch rather than having to rely on the 'if i'd wanted to... ' rationale.

the reason that i'm confused is that you seem to be simultaneously describing the ability to pull a punch as being both detrimental and essential to practice. you describe two drills the point of which is to pull a punch. and i think we both agree that control (as demonstrated by the ability to pull a punch and not do maximal damage every time you throw one) is a good thing. and that lack of control is, periodically, also a good thing.

to my mind, unless you plan to wail on your opponent each and every time, some sense of control is required. that control comes in one of two forms. you can either throw the punch from further away or you can learn to pull it, knowing that you had more to give if needs be. (as proven in more full-contact sparring with better protective gear)

if you get used to throwing the punch from too far away (to avoid accidents), then i expect that's a disservice. but learning to pull a punch and alternatively learning not to do so is a good tactic, to my mind.


stuart b.

[curtis]

HI AP.
Again there is a fundamental difference between pulling a punch and controlling your penetration.
The drills I explained teach to the hit the surface of the target, or else you will hit the wall. The goal is not to hold the punch
from getting into your proper alignment (proper energy transfer) but to be at full power, at the point where you want to hit. (In this case we are looking at the paper.) I am trying to explain a concussion type of punch, which uses shock to damage tissues rather than force.
I am sorry if I keep repeating myself. Let me try to explain it differently.
The human body is made up mostly of water. The soft tissues such as the heart, lungs, brain... are protected by a skeletal frame which sole purpose is to displace energy from damaging softer organs. (Please bear with me on not trying to talk down to you. Only to explain a concept that may be slightly different than what you are used to.) this skeletal frame also uses muscles, tendons, and skin, to help displace energy. (In other words it is the body's natural defense system.)
NOW if you use a driving punch, the body will attempt to displace as much energy as possible. Makeing it harder to really damage someone. But with a concussion strike the shock comes so quickly and then is gone ,the body is not able to displace the energy applied to it.
I believe there will be no argument with what I've stated. It's only a different way of looking at it , by controlling your penetration you can control the shock wave. If you go to deep into the target, the punch will become,PUSHIE or spungy. This effect happens because the bodies defense mechanisms are able to absorb or displace some part of the energy applied to it. The goal should be to strike in such a manner that your opponents naturaldefense system cannot be applied.

There is another game we used to play. That may help explain this concept.

Fill an old Clorox bottle with water , tying a string onto the handle and hanging the bottle up, so that it hangs appropriate height for you to strike comfortably.
Now strike the bottle. If you drive through the target it will be driven away from you.
BUT if you strike with concussion, the bottle will quiver a little (it does not swing away as it did before.)
your goal is to hit with the shock wave strong enough to burst the bottle.
This is not a full proof explanation, but it helps to explain what I'm trying to describe, PLUS ITS FUN!!! Especially in the summers heat .
Try it let me know what you think?
have a good night,
sincerely yours C.A.G.

[apoweyn]

curtis,

yeah, i agree with you wholeheartedly. now, it's really just a question of terminology that was causing the confusion. i'd define what you're doing specifically as 'pulling a punch.' if you throw the punch, it could penetrate further, but you prevent that by cutting it short and returning it to your guard position, how else would you describe that motion? i describe it as pulling. the fist wants to go further forward. i don't want it to do that. so i pull it back. the same way i might pull a dog back if i don't want it to go off and maul someone.

what you're describing in the other punch is not, to my mind, pulling at all. you're describing a totally different method of delivery. a more stiff, pushing delivery the energy of which dissipates. i like the description of the preferable punch as being concussive. it's precisely the terminology i use myself.

anyway, i'm not trying to get hung up on semantics (though i daresay it sounds that way). i'm just trying to get at what you mean. to my mind, ANY type of punch can be pulled. the dichotomy you're getting at is something different: stiff vs. snappy delivery.

in any event, fundamentally i agree with you.


stuart b.

[curtis]

HI again
OK, I believe there is a fundamental difference but you could be right it just might be symantec's, it's hard to tell whithout actually touching and feeling the power source for yourself.

Have you tried any the exercises I describe? They're all beneficial, the use nothing but the most common household utensils, and they are a BLAST to play with!

I find that power, hitting and energy (the transfer of) are almost a separate art in themselves.
After all there are so many factors that come to play at the moment of contact, too much or not enough, won't work. And then just when you think you understand power, you find out you telegraph too much, then you can't even hit your opponent.
"O"Well I guess that's why THEY call it an art. And why they also call it Gung Fu (personalized excellence.)
SEE YA LATTER!
C.A.G.

[apoweyn]

curtis,

i have done the paper drill, yeah. i also try a similar effect with the air shield and sidekicking. generally, people 'stick' the sidekick, leaving their leg out. i try to retract it straight away, the result being the same you're discussing. the percussive force isn't dissipated through a push. it tends to travel through the shield and into the person holding it. feels very different for the holder, apparently.


stuart b.

[No_Know]

Perhaps you two are understanding each other but I almost have to say something.

Curtis thinks full force is good. Some people punch air and say If I Really hit you...Curtis thinks that this is, Get out of my face with that junk you faker.

Curtis punches full force but hits to spread the force of the hit on the surface. The other way it would happen is visualization of punching through the target. Curtis prefers the energy spread on the surface from the contact area versus sending the force of the punch Into/through the person.

Apoweyn believes that tensing the muscles to stop the forward momentum or drive of a punch is Pulling that punch.

You both think force is Good (Hawwww™, hnhhhh™, Hawwww™; Luke...:-)please pardon, Had to Fun :~>)

Curtis indicates that directing the force to spread at the surface is Control, because the force naturally tends to go in the direction of the punch. But to hit full force so that the force does damage but not follow through the target person is controlling the punch.

Pulling a punch has the connotation of hitting but not as hard as you could. Wheter it's a NBA match or debate club Regionals.

Curtis, please nothice that when you make a control hit like you mention that you feel a tug or pull or tenseness (even slightly). This is of what Apoweyne mentioned. This might be considered a shortening of the punch. You sort of hold it back. Apoweyne called this Pull you called it Control.

The ways of straight punching~:

(visualization)Through the target.

Little to no force, stop without hitting the target. (working through the techniques/form)

Little to no force; make contact. (kidding around)

Force up to full; stop short of contact (pull (threat, feint or you would like to use it somewhere else)

Force up to full; connect with target (without follow through might be called control or pull)

Make contact; follow through. A punch

Make contact; stop at impact point. A Hit

Connect, then withdraw (snap--begin withdraw before connect/ pull-begin withdraw after connect)

Connect then continue forward (followthrough)

Land; remain. Sticking (the hit/punch)

Land; remain; start up punch from contact (push w/o the skill;second punch or continuation, for those with the skill to do so)

Land; remain; withdraw (withdraw too soon, not all the force goes in). Hit and pull or Return after punch. Some such, perhaps
.
.
.
Some of these go with each other. I put some factors together because you might not be of a mind to see them go together. I used different words to say the basicly same thing in some cases, because you might understand certan words and not other words.

There's Force--none~ to full. There's contact--a toggle (you connect or you don't). There's impact type--stay (remain, followthrough), withdraw.

[curtis]

Think you Mr. now_know. I think?

Mr. now_. I believe as far as what I've stated, you're about 85 percent correct, although I see control of energy to be, the ability to control the death of my energys penetration into its target .
being able to hit the surface only for stinging strike, (used primarily in training, so that I do not hurt my secondary, yet making training even more challenging.) I see hitting slightly inside the surface to cause a stunning strike, and slightly deeper for a knockout strike. It all depends on the death of the energy's penetration into the target. This is what I call control. (Warning to visualize is good. But to visualize punching through your target will be to deep, this will cause your punch to become an entirely different type of energy. One that does not utilize, your entire bodies potential to create and transfer energy.)
But despite that I believe you are correct.
I realized we had communication gap, so I tried to explain things differently .Although there were some words I could not overlook , perhaps that was my down fall.


Although the drills I suggested, seems to have worked, where my words were inadequate.AP. Seems to like, or at least is experiment with the ideas I suggest.
And I think that is really KOOL!
Thank you very much Mr. now... if you have any insights on this topic, I would very much like to hear them. THANKS AGAIN
C.A.G.

[No_Know]

I can see why you say it would be too deep.

And I see that depth is important to you.

I think it great that you are at a place where you can consider depth your energy or the force of the punch goes.

I'm only at Punch and whatever whatever. :-)

Because I think you won't hear it from others much I'll say here.

I like to punch, full intensity (which might be less than full force), then shift down speedwhen Really close to impact area, but continue at the initial intensity.

I dislike fullforce (brute strength). I can't do that way anymore. It hurts me.

[curtis]

Hi guys! And good morning to all
there's one or exercise that I use to control the death of penetration of my strikes, it's very easy, uses common household materials and you can feel it immediately. It is the phonebook.

The idea here is to use a large phonebook. (Or two) The paper and loosely packed bindings will help dissipate energy applied to it.
The phonebook must be held firmly onto the body (if you hold the book loosely on the body, gaps can be formed, this is bad, so hold the PHONEBOOK tightening to the body, one hand on the top, one hand bottom, the phonebook will form to the body.)

Now here's how to use it. Have your secondary hold the phonebook. Have him stand a full arms distance away from you. (This is a starting point for training, later distance really is not important.) Now punch. You'll find if you go to deep you'll just push the secondary away. Now control your death by the phonebook. The surface of the book will be STING. Now you play with the book, the ABC's of the phonebook will be your death GAUGE. You'll find if you hit into the C's the secondary will feel the energy (it HURTS, but the body does not move away from the strike.) Keep experimenting with depth ,D,E,F...

Now I feel my best DEPTH Is about D level. (Note the punch does not feel forceful, like it does when you drive through the target. But you can clearly see the shock in the opponent's face and fatty tissues.) PLUS he will tell you! WHIN IS HURTS,BAD!!!

Now since you have to visualize your control of the death, your gauges maybe different than mine. You may feel F is the best death for maximum power. (The proof is in the putting pudding, and you must make that for yourself.)

"O" one more thing before I close. Let your secondary hit the book's first, he will normally drive through IT. You'll find that this will not hurt you that all. It may through you backwards but there is no real pain in it.
AND one more thing. Have the secondary (one who holds the book) stand in a 50-50 stance with the feet parallel to you. If you Drive into the book you will push them away easily. You do not WANT your secondary to HAVE a strong base. IF HE DOSE, HE COULD REALY GET HURT, and that isnt the idea here, training is the goal.
Good LUCK IN YOU TRAINING.
C.A.G.