'transferring'

[apoweyn]

i'm not sure what this is called in other schools, but i'm referring to a maneuver in which you manipulate the opponent's arms so that you start on the inside of his arm and end on the outside. leaving you in good position for an armbar or something to that effect.

do you know what i mean?

my question is how much luck have you had applying this maneuver in sparring? (or in reality if you have some experience) what factors do you think made it work?

cheers.


stuart b.

[Black Jack]

Do you mean like in the opening of hubad drill? Shifting from the inside to the outside?

[apoweyn]

that's precisely what i mean. good grief, black jack, why the hell didn't i think to describe it that way?!

[sigh]

[fa_jing]

We have Tsuen Sao (threading Block) and Huen Sao (circling wrist) that perform this function.
-FJ

[apoweyn]

have you been able to reliably pull it off in sparring?

[KC Elbows]

Yes, although a good fighter will often counter it, but that, like everything else, can work to your advantage.

At least that's my experience.

[Merryprankster]

Ap,

Yeah--wrestlers do something similar, I bet. We'll look at it when I see you next.

James

[apoweyn]

james,

actually, you've done this maneuver in our practices already. it illustrated one of the 'conditions' i was thinking of nicely.


stuart

[apoweyn]

KC,

how did they counter it? how did you pull it off on the occassions it worked? was he swinging at you? straight-line punch? at the end of the attack? or the beginning?

(thought we might get into the technical stuff, as a break from mcdojos and what have you.)


stuart b.

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by apoweyn
have you been able to reliably pull it off in sparring?

Actually these aren't big parts of my arsenal, if I'm on the inside of the arm I usually go straight in to hit or trap downward. If the opponent pushes against my arm from the outside in, in that case I will Huen Sao to the outside, however instead of simply resting there it becomes a palm strike or a hook to the temple in one single motion. That's the one I use in sparring, so far. Another possibility would be to circle to the outside of the opponents arm and trap with that same hand, punching with the other. I'll try that next time I spar.

The strategy you are referring to is definitely part of Wing Chun, however it is more useful for a smaller person fighting a larger opponent. In this case, we are taught to attack the outer gate (blind side), the type of movement you refer to will take you from the inner to the outer gate so you can attack there. But it's a conservative, safe movement that shifts the arms without striking - I like to get to the hitting quickly and I'll attack the inner gate as likely as I'll attack the outer gate - whatever presents itself. However, it is a skill that I will need to develop as I progress from External to Internal and from Hard to Soft. This is a good strategy for fighting a larger opponent that you don't want to face straight on.

-FJ

[KC Elbows]

If I'm thinking the same sort of manuever you are, it can come after I have attacked, say a straight line punch, and he defends in a way that leaves my arm on the inside of his arm, or he attacks similarly and I defend in a way that fulfills the same criteria.

Now, just rolling my hand under his arm is really easy for him to feel and stop. When I've used that, I'll thread my hand so that it is pressing on the inside of his arm, just above his elbow. If I follow this circle and turn my palm up, his arm will make a big circle around my head, and will leave me on the outside of his arm, where I usually do a crane strike with the back of my wrist toward his face and continue to assault.

However, more often, I will thread my hand above his elbow the same, but instead of doing the big circle, I'll pull his guard away from his ribs, and, using the same hand, both if the other doesn't need to cover, I'll strike at the front of the body where the strike can go through to the kidneys.

Another way I get to the outside of the arm is actually over the top while sticking. At the moment we end up in the position you outlined(me on the inside of his guard wanting to go to the outside) I will draw my hand towards me but keep contact on the bridge, and my hand will roughly describe a circle toward my abdomen and over the top, my elbow will basically drop the opponent's guard down a little, and I will shuffle forward as my fist comes over the top and strike the opponent on the neck with my forearm, or head with my fist. It's very important that your other hand is guarding on this manuever, but it is very possible.

Those are the ways that usually work best for me, though I'm not usually going for the armbar.

This is all assuming that I am blocking on the same side, meaning his left hand is being blocked by my right.

If it's cross handed(me blocking his left with my left), then it could still be from a straight-line punch, but I don't think I'd do it the same way. I guess I'd use the same threading effect, but instead of manuevering their arm around, I'd triangle in(speaking footwork here) and try to press their elbow into their center, off balance them, then continue on the offensive, I guess.

Hope that makes sense.

[KC Elbows]

As for counters, the one I use most by far is the second one, going under and over, and usually they counter by their footwork, basically moving to evade. Then, as I'm usually bigger and closer than they expected, I clinch or start with the elbows, or they do something that hadn't occured to me and stop my assault.

The threading is something I mostly use the first way I described, in which my right hand is blocking their left hand or vice versa, I'll go in to go all the way around with their arm, and the moment I feel that they're trying to counter, I'll go to the kidney shot, if they don't try to counter, I'll just bring their arm around, use peng to pin that arm to their body, and biu ma(shuffle with a trapping footwork) in for the throw.

[No_Know]

This is towards the direction of your first questions-ish. I do as much as I Know. And I No_Know. But here's some theory-type says that might be choice useable by you apoweyn.

Five-hand- all fingers and thumb spread out. Palm-up. Nuckles locked. Bend at wrist, towards your face. 180° move, counterclockwise. Straighten-up wrist (unbend). Turn palm to your face.

The contact happens at or near your wrist and their mid-forearm to their elbow. As the wrist bends the hand down, the elbow extends. Sliding the back of your wrist along and underside of his forearm approaching his elbow while still turning at the wrist. By the moment you reach the elbow and not going further than the elbow; tuck the thumb making a Four-handfingers point up, then pivot about the index finger like a closing door. Your palm now on the rear aft arm near the elbow.

Use your other hand from your shoulder to your face to pry his arm in place. Armbar.

Let your hand rotate his arm as it snakes to aftarm. Single arm armbar.

Or, make the block at or near your wrist, on or near his elbow; your extended elbow has your fingers dive over his elbow. Use your curved pinky and ring fingers on aftarm near his elbow to prevent his arm from retreating. Pull towards you and up (palm-up clockwise). His arm or hand resting under your aftarm or underarm, Single arm armbar.

I hope that armbar refers to locking the elbow.

When deflecting, use over or under. When blocking, over is most recommended.

I couldn't tell you if what you tried is any good. But I can tell you how I see, relevantly, it should be done and hope that you can gain from my conceptualizations. Into your applications.

To break an under, raise the arm at the shoulder moving the elbow away from center. To break an over, turn your folded thumb to a position of six o'clock.

To reverse an over, your elbow down and in; while your fist turns to palm and goes under his mid aftarm;turn your palm down On his aftarm your elbow out and up,

[KC Elbows]

I see what move you're all getting at now! Thanks No_Know!

Yeah, what No_Know said! I was looking at it from another viewpoint, although one of the moves I was trying to describe was a similar move, but not the same application(the one with the kidney strike). Basically the same as the first tech No_Know described, except instead of making contact on the outside of the elbow, make contact on the inside. Not good for an arm bar, but I generally don't try armbars from that, anyway.

[Mr Punch]

In WC there is also simply tan sau to bong sau and over into an elbow.

If somebody is pushing heavily on any low/middle line inside position, we practise rolling it over into bong sau. The bong sau rolls up and over as you pivot onto the outside. This can be used to apply a downward motion towards your opponent's body, forcing him back and trapping (ideally) both of his arms, or you can 'disappear' the bong and go for a high gaun, or biu control (NOT the biu to the eyes, but simply using the biu energy to control, trap or turn into a strike).

These work best from really close.

The obvious counters are:

1) somebody taking your elbow from underneath, uprooting you, followed by a sweep, throw or playing xylophone on your ribs;

2) ikkyo/yonkyo (aikido - sorry don't know the grappling terms, but ikkyo basically involves bringing the elbow further over for an outside armbar, yonkyo involves using the elbow to smash into their own face... or that would its most brutal sounding description!! Yonkyo can be used to turn into ikkyo to set up the armbar);

3) a jam to the inside of the elbow before it complete rolling over. This can then be 'bounced' off into an inside strike, or the offending elbow can be grabbed for any number of nasty hip throws!

I think I've pulled off all of these in sparring (and chi sau). This move is easier to do than to counter, I think, maybe because there is a lot of leverage on the elbow. If you try it from too far you are basically giving your opponent the elbow...!

We use huen sau and tsuen sau too. If I get time I'll blarble on about them a bit later, if others haven't already covered them.

[apoweyn]

hey gang,

good responses. cheers.

i'm not specifically concerned with the armbar. i just mentioned it because it gives a pretty clear picture to practitioners of virtually every style of the end position i'm referring to. black jack identified exactly the move i was referring to, because it's the beginning of a very common filipino energy drill (hubud).

reading your responses, though, i think everyone knew exactly what maneuver i was getting at.

now, here's why i ask: in FMA, we train the transfer a lot. the rationale (or one of them) is that we always assume that the opponent has a secondary weapon (very often a knife). so if we get on the outside of the primary weapon, it's harder for the opponent to bring the secondary weapon to bear on us. e.g., if i'm fighting a guy who's using espada y daga (generally stick and dagger; literally sword and dagger), i want to defend the stick and then transfer to the outside, to reduce the chance of getting stabbed while i'm on the inside. (certainly not the only tactic, but a common one.)

now, my question was oriented more toward empty hand. i don't use this maneuver nearly as much in empty hand, for the same reasons that fa_jing explained nicely. that said, i would like to train them more. they have their uses. for example, if i'm sparring two people, transferring to the outside puts one person between me and the other. then there's always that rationale about the opponent having a concealed weapon.

that's why i was asking about what 'factors' made it work, in your opinion. my thinking is this: versus an impact weapon, the momentum required feeds into that transfer quite nicely. with empty hand, you get less of that (in my experience). against a nice, wide ridgehand perhaps. but most of the punches i see don't lend themselves to the transfer.

why?

perhaps because of the range. if i try to apply the transfer at punching range, the end of the punch (the most mobile part of that structure) is all that's in reach for me. it's highly unlikely, to my mind, that i'll be able to transfer a cross for example. too snappy and quick.

unless...

merryprankster identified one of the factors i was talking about. and i imagine it's one that makes this maneuver work for some of you wing chun guys too. closing distance aggressively. if i remain passively at the full range for that punch, i'm going to try and transfer at the wrist, which makes it very easy for the opponent to fold at the elbow and slip right back into his guard. but if i'm aggressively moving forward, i can transfer at the elbow (as kc elbows mentioned) or perhaps even the tricep or shoulder (as merryprankster did to me in person).

kc elbows also brought up another possibility i liked. throwing an attack that elicited the response you needed to work off of. if moving into an attack is not reflex, then that aggressive closing of distance may not take place fast enough. but if i know ahead of time that that's my intent, i can through a strike to make him put his arm in the appropriate place, then i'm prepared to aggressively move forward for the transfer.

he says, with an unwarranted degree of authority. :)

so the big factor i'm thinking of is being close enough to reliably control the movements of the opponent's arm and to disallow the opponent to snap back into his guard. essentially, i need to be at a range and angle that allows me to reliably wedge my arm between his body and his arm. otherwise, that transfer's going to get away from me.

does that make sense? (as always, not a rhetorical question)


stuart b.

[No_Know]

It's what you would like to do, that's all that matters.~

Whatever his stance mirror it. When attacked with his closest arm you can move to the outside with your armbar. I say look at being 90° to his body. Look for a weightshift back to tell you he's going to attack (spring). Boxing move forward and towards the attackers shoulder is to where your feet should head.

Feet...head. Does that mean I put my foot in my mouth? :-)

[fa_jing]

Ap, responding to your last post, regarding effective application of a transfer - you're discussing applying this in a offensive, aggresive context. Just remember it's a response to inward pressure, for instance if you punch to his head and he blocks you inward. You apply the transfer, and if his response is to withdraw his arm, you follow with a step. If he jerks his hand back, it means you can easily pin his elbow to his torso. It's a pretty good tactic to attack the inside gate with a straight punch, then circle underneath to the outside. It helps if your first punch is performed with a vertical fist and the elbow down - this makes it easier to make a small circle with your upper arm

Defensively, if he tries to slap your wrist or lower forearm with a parallel hand, you can circle around the force and end up on the outside. However, if he pins you at the elbow, a different response is called for.

I'll mention here our "Jou Sao" or running hand - this is the correct term to refer to taking your hand from the inside gate to the outside in a circular motion and striking in one motion, while checking the opponent's arm with the rear hand. The lead hand does not concern itself with maintaining contact with the opponent's arm, it gets off of the force, circles around and does its thing.

Another piece of advice, regarding movements where it seems that the opponent can withdraw his arm - some times the answer is to catch the arm on it's way out, while your opponent is trying to complete a punch. Our Jom to Huen works like this - imagine you both are standing left forward, an incoming straight left to your head, you block (not too hard, don't want to lose contact!) with a palm up forearm block to the inside, your hand snakes over and around his forearm and your forearm follows as you lift your elbow, this is Huen - followed by a palm to the midsection. If you try this and your opponent is not punching with a forward momentum that you can use to immobilize him briefly, the action will not work. For instance, this technique will never work against a punch that is at full extension, or against a flicking jab-type punch.

-FJ

[apoweyn]

fa jing,

yeah! that's another factor i'm glad someone brought up. thanks.

okay, so having the timing to transfer as the punch is coming out.

i think the fundamental idea i'm groping for is that being at the fullest extension of the punch (either in terms of timing or range) isn't going to work. it needs to be either before or after that point and inside that range.

i have no idea whether that makes any sense outside my own head.

:)


stuart b.

[Merryprankster]

fa jing,

You're right that the maneuver won't work to well against something like a jab, however, I think the principle can be used well....

Ap, consider this--think of your body positioning more than the handwork.

Now, against an empty hand attack, lets say a jab or cross, for common referrence, you SLIP, step in at an angle with the same side foot (ie, slip left, step left and in) and then you close the gap either at their shoulder or elbow if you're concerned with it (I just body clinch and takedown from here.)

You're doing, essentially, the same thing, only without the handwork, using footwork (the triangular nature of this angle step should fit in nicely with your eskrima footwork) and slipping to substitute for the initial hand work.

Footwork and body positioning, I think you'll find, are almost identical.... and that's what, 80% of it?

[apoweyn]

cheers merryprankster.

i agree. body positioning and footwork make up the lion's share of it. to the point, in fact, that the handwork of the transfer often isn't necessary. if you weave the punch, you've already achieved the same thing. (actually, if you weave the punch and initiate contact to control THEN you've achieved the same thing.)


stuart b.

[Merryprankster]

I also agree that it won't work at full extension. Futile unless you have the quickness of a god.

[apoweyn]

well, you've seen me. i'm figuring that if i had the quickness of a god, you'd probably have mentioned it. :)

"holy crap!! stuart's gone all... godly on us!!!"

...

i got nothing.


stuart b.

[fa_jing]

I also agree about the footwork. :) Stepping to the outside is part of the transfer, the only difference with the slip/weave is that you exert some type of control on the opponent's arm as you do this.

-FJ

[Merryprankster]

I should think that once you have cleared the punch, the near side arm could come to mess around with the elbow or tricep region, giving the far side arm time to close the gap to wherever you want it to go....

[No_Know]

Keep your arms and hands in a high position so that they get passed when you get punched. As he punches near your arms (through your guard--ambush), change your arms like getting your balance or balast to shift your weight whe you adjust position at their attack. Your hands and arms could fall into place qiuckly because they were already there.

Godspeed, Stuart B.