Posture and structure

[red5angel]

Proper Posture is important for several reasons. Straightening out the spine, chin tucked in or back a little, pelvis tucked or rolled under to flatten the small of the back serves several purposes. The first is the flow of qi, with the spine straight it allows qi to flow more freely through the body. Proper structure allows you to settle, relaxed into your root by centering your weight making your structure biomechanically sound and stable. This helps in the absorption of energy when needed as it has a smooth unrestricted path to the ground. My personal favorite is the ideaof an axis on which you turn. If your spins is not straight it takes the body longer to turn on that access. If it is straight it turns smoothly and quickly around a smaller area.

[Axiom]

Just out of interest, are you looking to educate or discuss? It's hard to tell.

[red5angel]

Lets go with both Axiom. We get new people through here all the time, and some of the old people may not understand this stuff, talking about it helps. Otherwise discussion is always good.

[TjD]

if you've only been practicing for two years on and off; perhaps you should do a little more discussing and a little less educating? :) :) :)

just teasin :)

[red5angel]

:) dont worry TjD, I get that all the time ;) Actually though it is a good point. I studied chop saki wingchun for about a year and a half. Then I got hooked up with my school in Minneapolis and met Carl and I have been doing his stuff for about 7-8 months and it has really been a huge difference. I feel that although I am back to basics and basically starting over things have become more solid to me, the concepts are just talked about we practice them, day in and day out.
For instance I alwasy knew posture was important, even in daily life you always here things about sitting up, dont slouch, whatever. In the martial arts things like this, these little details, are extremely important but often get brushed over because they seem like small things.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by red5angel
Proper Posture is important for several reasons. Straightening out the spine, chin tucked in or back a little, pelvis tucked or rolled under to flatten the small of the back serves several purposes. The first is the flow of qi, with the spine straight it allows qi to flow more freely through the body.

Wrong. ;) Proper posture has nothing to do with pseudo metaphysical Eastern mysticism. It is simple physics.


Proper structure allows you to settle, relaxed into your root by centering your weight making your structure biomechanically sound and stable.

Yes, this is correct. :)


This helps in the absorption of energy when needed as it has a smooth unrestricted path to the ground. My personal favorite is the ideaof an axis on which you turn. If your spins is not straight it takes the body longer to turn on that access. If it is straight it turns smoothly and quickly around a smaller area.
There is a lot more involved in a proper turn than merely keeping your back straight. In fact, the back twists and flexes, so I don't think that saying your spine is straight when turning is accurate; it isn't.

While I agree pretty much with your description of proper posture for standing in a good horse stance---you left a couple of points out---Ken constantly repeats the five guidelines for a good horse stance: Kim sut, Lok ma, Ting yu, Dung tao, and Mai jiang---what is this Qi business? Wing Chun is a scientific approach to martial arts; why bring in unprovable speculation? You're watering down your Wing Chun with Taiji concepts.

Do you imagine that your Sigung Ken Chung teaches Wing Chun using any of the Taiji terms you've bandied about? You should get out more. Meet some of Ken's students. :) Most of us don't believe in Qi, or at the least believe it is undemonstrable scientifically.

Regards,

[CanadianBadAss]

Structure's every thing in wing chun. If you have it, and can keep it, you'll be impenetrable and should be able to collapse your opponents structure (assuming his structure is weaker then yours).

Proper Posture is a part of structure, just like everything else we train.

[red5angel]

Well, Grendel, as for Qi, to each his own I guess. ;)

You are both correct however it is a small piece of the big picture but an important one I think. Grendel, can you describe more in detail what you are talking about when you say your spine twist and turns when turning?

[S.Teebas]

In fact, the back twists and flexes, so I don't think that saying your spine is straight when turning is accurate; it isn't.

It will flex and twist if its not unified. A straight spine (helps) link your body so you can redirect the force while attacking.

[gnugear]

I've been seriously working on correct posture for the past 5 months, and if nothing else, I wake up in the morning with no more neck and back aches :)

....and I feel that it has improved my Wing Chun.

[red5angel]

LOL! amazing what doing things that are healthy for you can do for your health! :D

[Jim Roselando]

Red Angel,


In case you didnt know I thought I would help you out.

Chi (Qi) is traditionally not part of Wong Wah Bo's teaching! So, just because you have it doesnt mean it was there all along. Proper alignment in almost all Kung Fu is pretty similar, and yes we are similar to some of the internal breathing arts, but if you look at our arts history you will see it was not a focus.

Wong Wah Bo had two pupils (Leung Jan and Fok Bo Cheun) and both did not teach Chi Gung breathing as part of their art.

Perhaps since your teacher and grandteacher both have connections to Chen Taiji they may have decided to add that into their Wing Chun (which is ok) but its clear that it was not part of the arts curriculum.


Regards,

[red5angel]

Jim, no breathing techniques, and taichi isnt mixed into our wingchun. Some of the principles are similar from what I understand but I study wingchun. the subject of qi is pretty prevalent in chinese martial arts, regardless of whether it is an 'internal' or 'external' art.
As for myself, well, Qi could be a lot of things but there is something about the way we practice our arts that makes it hard to deny something more exist then what is on the surface. whether it is just good biomechanics or some sort of mystical energy, it doesnt matter to me. In this cae proper posture is important no matter what your beliefs are.

[reneritchie]

Hi Jim,

Hei (Qi) is talked about in the generic sense (everyone breathes), and there's some WCK stuff about breathing naturally, etc. One could argue this is some form of Hei Gung, but like you I haven't seen the historic emphasis on it you'd see in some other (typically Northern) arts.

My usual POV on this is - if someone knows Hei Gung, they can pretty much do anything in a Hei Gung beneficial manner (although some might find WCK structure better for fighting than Hei Gung), while anyone without specific Hei Gung knowledge (including people who are simply told "this is Hei Gung" but aren't taught the specific method itself) could be doing the best Hei Gung in the world and only receive incidental benefits.

Rgds.

RR

[Jim Roselando]

Red Angel,


My beliefs are proper posture is everything in MA. Correct! But, just because you feel proper posture is going to develop your Chi is doesnt mean that is true.

You could do your Siu Lin Tau as slow as you want and you will never complete Micro/Macro circulation. Chi Kung (or developing Chi) is not as easy as you think.

If, Chi development was not a focus from both of Wong Wah Bo's pupils lineages then how did it arrive in yours? Chi is prevalent in Chinese Martial Art but not all of the Chinese arts. You say its hard to deny something more exists but sometimes people like to think something is more than what it is. I know I used to!


Regards,

[red5angel]

Jim, ok I see what you are saying. I imagine that developing those skills to a deep level takes much more work then doing SLT! For me it is more about the biomechanics and efficiency in keeping a straight posture.
As for qi in the lineage, I have never officially discussed the idea with anyone. Mainly we have communicated biomechanical benefits and structural points. Carl and Ken are both into Chen Taiji but other then a few warmups we use to get going we do not mix it into our wingchun.

[Jim Roselando]

Hiya Rene,


Personally, I feel just breathing is not what is meant by Hay Gung. Eveyone breaths, and yes that is something, but the methods needed to complete Micro/Macro circulation is a bit more detailed than just breathing otherwise we would not need to seek out instruction to learn Hay Gung.

Learning how to move the Chi up the spine, down the front, around the belt line and around the body is something few can do. So many factors come into play. Time of day (as chi drops from I believe 4am-6am which is optimum for Hay Gung), directions of practice, thought, breathing cycles, etc..

I tend to think too many people place a title on something that is nothing more than simple, logical fighting alignments/methods even if it is similar.


See ya,

[Jim Roselando]

Red Angel,


I have met Ken and appreciate what he does! Actually, I apprecaite more now than ever! I am glad I was able to explain my POV and glad you understand what I meant.


Thanks for the chat!


Regards,

[red5angel]

Well, I am not well versed in qi circulation myself, just have come to understand that proper posture helps it to circulate naturally. I have not formed a real solid viewpoint on it as of yet, not sure I will really. Like you wing chun for me is efficient and effective and that is why I am learning it!
Thanks for explaining your point of view, I think somewhere with more info I would probably be in agreement but for now must bow to you higher knowledge on the subject of Hei Gung and Qi.

[yuanfen]

Jim-
A friendly note. I am more hesitant in asserting definitively what Leung Jan may or may not have taught . I know that many people trace their learning directly back to leung Jan...but there is no time machine.. and what we have is relayed elements of things that he may have done. The concept of chi/qi is so deeply imbedded in Chinese culture ( and classical Indian culture as prana) that it can show up in different ways. So there are quite different paradigms involved with some overlapping and often
different sets of observation. A proper opening and closing of sil lim tao involves directing of chi flow...enough of doing it right plays a role in integration of chi and motion- this also overlaps with what in part others call the devlopment of nim lek. In addittion to martial devlopment- given Chinese culture- lots of traditional Chinese sifus have addittional chi gung routines for health development. Since you know some jook lum for instance-
Mak sifu not only teaches martial no nosense spm but he also teaches chi gung. Chinese sifus can comfortably deal with a
variety of things within the cultural parameters in teaching students if they wish to.. Without doing all the martial motions it is possible to do full circulations with wing chun standing just as
tai chi standing...

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Joy,


True we have no time machine but we do have knowledge that has been handed down to cross check and compare. So, we may never know exactly as we ere not there but we can say what was More Likely or Less Likely. Evidence shows it was more likely that Chi is not part of our art as passed down thru Wong Wah Bo.

I agree that Chi is deeply imbedded but we also must realize Wing Chun is only 150 or so years old and it was designed to be an ultra refined fighting system. With that in mind you might think they were training to develop quickly and may have decided to leave out certain things that were part of the other Kung Fu arts.

Jook Lum is supposed to be a so-called Shaolin related art and they indeed have hay gung as part of their boxing. Mark Sifu trained this art and also the 6 healing sounds chi kung I believe. I did some Yi Chuan for a bit and found to posture very similar to WC alignment and could easily adopt its principles into my WC but that would not make it WC. I do feel that learning some form of Hay Gung can only help ones root and fluidity as a healthy relaxed body is a stronger body for fighting but would always make sure I make it clear the two are indeed seperate arts. I just think the word Chi gets used too easily.

Just my thoughts.


Regards,

[Grendel]

Hi Yuanfen,

Originally posted by yuanfen
The concept of chi/qi is so deeply imbedded in Chinese culture (and classical Indian culture as prana) that it can show up in different ways. So there are quite different paradigms involved with some overlapping and often different sets of observation.

Do you explicitly teach your students about Chi or Prana? Or, are you suggesting that it is the "life force" that we all have, which we know cannot be demonstrated by scientific means? If you sense it subjectively, or its a helpful metaphor for conveying subjects such as posture, then cool. But as far as professing belief, I remain from Missouri. :)


A proper opening and closing of sil lim tao involves directing of chi flow...enough of doing it right plays a role in integration of chi and motion- this also overlaps with what in part others call the devlopment of nim lek.

I can't equate nim lek with Chi. I find nim lek to be demonstrable and explainable in conventional Western terms. :)


In addittion to martial devlopment- given Chinese culture- lots of traditional Chinese sifus have addittional chi gung routines for health development.
I'm sure that you're not including Red5Argel's non-Chinese teacher in this. :)

Harking back again to R5A's contentions, he just doesn't know what he doesn't know. Just because R5A's teacher studies on the side with a Taiji teacher doesn't logically or actually mean that "Wallah," Ken does. As has been pointed out many times, R5A suffers from Minneapolitis, the untested certainty of one with an unbroken parochial view extending out to the suburbs.

I'm still excited? Any thoughts? :) ;) ;)

Regards,

[red5angel]

Grendel, your spine should not twist, if it does you are not practicing good posture. however Ken, from what I understand Ken does study Chen Taiji on the side. Its not uncommon for people to study multiple arts.
As for minneapolitis, well, I have already stated that I have done some travelling and some visiting so my views extend far further then the suburbs ;)

[anerlich]

some of the old people may not understand this stuff

You have anyone particular in mind, junior? Show a little respect for people that were learning this stuff while you were still in daipers.

A straight spine is not always best for significant exertion, or for efficient breathing. The spine was meant to flex and move with the rest of the body.

[S.Teebas]

Lol…red5angle have u though about changing your name to ‘im_excited?

Something interesting I saw on the discovery channel was scientists have recently discovered a new ‘force’ that they have NO idea anything about it. They have called it dark matter. It’s in relation to the movement of the universe, ie its expansion and contraction. They have concluded that a force is moving the universe that is NOT gravity or any other known force etc… Ok im no scientist! But what I find interesting is that fact that if this is plausible, ie the fact that forces exist..and are working upon us without us even know it… (of course humans cant know everything!)
Well maybe if you can carry the concept that a force is there that we arnt really aware of, its also plausable that we could be able to use something’s that science have NO idea about..or any way to prove its exist. (yet!)

[planetwc]

While he certainly DOES visit with a lot of the senior Chen family members. Ken does not study Chen Taiji "on the side". He does no Chen forms or drills, nor does he teach them. He has been very open in allowing his students to be free to experience these other arts and to pursue them if interested.

Carl on the other hand does study Chen Taiji with Chen Qing Zhou.

Carl also studies Fu family martial arts with Victor Sheng Long Fu. http://www.fustyle.com/

So the influences of Chen training you may experience in Minneaopolis is no doubt influenced from Carl's other martial arts teachers. It is not coming from how Ken is teaching Wing Chun.


Originally posted by red5angel
Grendel, your spine should not twist, if it does you are not practicing good posture. however Ken, from what I understand Ken does study Chen Taiji on the side. Its not uncommon for people to study multiple arts.
As for minneapolitis, well, I have already stated that I have done some travelling and some visiting so my views extend far further then the suburbs ;)

[Axiom]

A little OT I know, but I thought dark matter was a concept that had been discussed for some time now. One of the big questions on the road to answering whether we live in an 'open' (ie expanding indefinitely) or 'closed' (eventually recollapsing) universe is what the mass of the universe is, which is made very difficult when there is matter out there but you can't really tell where it is or how much of it exists.

[planetwc]

Jim,

The adding of Chen training and terminology "apparently" is unique to what Carl is passing on to his students. I've spoken with Carl about some of the Chen drills he has added to his personal training and he finds that for him they are enormously helpful. It sounds as if he is passing those things on to his students as well.

That said, Ken Chung is NOT teaching Chen drills as part of his curriculum either in public or private classes.

Occasionally on the HK JKD/VTAA "forum" certain elements keep wanting to state that Ken is doing Feng's hunyuan style Taiji in combination with Wing Chun. However, as much as they might want it to BE so, it isn't. We do NO Chen exercises, dan tien rotations, Taiji Sphere, Silk Reeling or Cannon Fist. We do no Taiji drills or forms of ANY kind. It is not to imply doing so would be wrong, it simply is the case that it is not being done at all at either Ken's School or Ben Der's school in San Jose.

Nor does Ken make reference to Qi or Chi in his teaching.

There are certainly references to energy using the word "energy" and not Qi, nor references to meridians etc. He will on occasion discuss how other systems refer to some of these concepts or how they were explained in those systems that he is aware of.

So it is closer to what Chu Shong Tin describes as having certain "physical feelings" during the practice of the forms. I think Master Chu has coalesced those ideas into Nim Lek and the potential nei gung aspects of Wing Chun Kuen. That said, there are quite obvious differences from the traditional uses of the term nei gung and how it is performed from say Chen use of dan tien rotation and the coiling of Silk Reeling etc. Which is why I'm hesitant to use the term here.

So, any use of Qi discussions and training is unique to what Carl is teaching his instructors and students. It is not something going on here in Cupertino as part of the classes Ken teaches during the week or on the weekends.

regards,

David Williams


Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Red Angel,


In case you didnt know I thought I would help you out.

Chi (Qi) is traditionally not part of Wong Wah Bo's teaching! So, just because you have it doesnt mean it was there all along. Proper alignment in almost all Kung Fu is pretty similar, and yes we are similar to some of the internal breathing arts, but if you look at our arts history you will see it was not a focus.

Wong Wah Bo had two pupils (Leung Jan and Fok Bo Cheun) and both did not teach Chi Gung breathing as part of their art.

Perhaps since your teacher and grandteacher both have connections to Chen Taiji they may have decided to add that into their Wing Chun (which is ok) but its clear that it was not part of the arts curriculum.


Regards,

[anerlich]

I studied chop saki wingchun for about a year and a half. Then I got hooked up with my school in Minneapolis and met Carl and I have been doing his stuff for about 7-8 months

So you've got a bit over two years in total and by your own admission the first eighteen months was effectively worthless? So you've been training in "good" WC for 7-8 months?

And you've been to schools all across the continental US and have the technical nous to judge many of them as McKwoons and McDojos? And to lecture your "peers" here on subjects in which you have almost no experience?

As the great Wallid Ismail would say, "BOOOSHEIIIITTT!"

[yuanfen]

Funny about the car Qi- I misplace it often enough and then I rotate my dan tien and presto-its there.!!<g>yuanfen

Hi Yuanfen,


Do you explicitly teach your students about Chi or Prana?
((I do not consciously teach any ideology, religion or belief and create no cultish chemistry...I assume that if I treat people as curious adults they will draw their own conclusions or see it (their experiences)through their own paradigms.))yuanfen

Or, are you suggesting that it is the "life force" that we all have, which we know cannot be demonstrated by scientific means?

((Philosophy of Science is a very complex subject- if we discuss it we will really wander far and might get 400 posts from red 5 on the subject. Lets just say that there are lots of entities in scienec that are INDIRECTLY verified and the verification is finally dependent on the acceptance by the scientific community. And the acceptance can be for different philosophocal reasons. The late physicist Paul Dirac can give a materialist explanation in metaphysics for an event and Einstein can accept the same event asa sign of intelligence in the universe. When the enrgy flows in the hand properly...makes no difference to me whether you call it chi, muscle dynamics, a gerbil crawling under your skin or the devil's hand...but flow it should for good wing chun.)))

If you sense it subjectively, or its a helpful metaphor for conveying subjects such as posture, then cool. But as far as professing belief, I remain from Missouri.

(( I teach no beliefs and my own are always tentative. But as Karl Popper the philosopher of science recognized, "tacit" knowledge is important in science too... building on the knowledge of experienced people who have gone before you. Not everything is de novo. As methodological skepticism- being from Missouri is ok -but I am not from there nor from Minneapolis or Ohio.))yuanfen




I can't equate nim lek with Chi. I find nim lek to be demonstrable and explainable in conventional Western terms.

((Among others I know two superb helpful accupuncturists whose success rate for some things are atleast as good as the family doctor/ One was socialized in the PRC during the cultural revolution so he is a bit wary about talking too much about chi...
another is comfortable with the term... I judge them both on their success and their skills and their hygenic standards...not their metaphysics)) yuanfen.




I'm still excited? Any thoughts?

((After the alkasetzer perhaps after our frequent flier or friar.
Seven month newbies deserve help but if the cup is always full
you move on))Yuanfen

[Jim Roselando]

Hey David,


Thanks for the reply. I do not use the VTAA forum but have met Ken before. I do remember him saying;

In WC we do not speak in terms of Chi.

I believe I read on this forum that Ken did a bit of Chen on the side and from looking at his WC I do not see Chen in his WC but if he did do it to help his root then more power to him but as you say he doesnt.

No big deal.

Not sure about Tsui Song Tin as I have never met the man but have spoken with some people that have and all say he is very big into Chi Kung and feels it has helped his WCK which is great.


Thanks for the info..

Regards,

[red5angel]

Anerlich - I have shown plenty of respect while still expressing my thoughts on these subjects. I apologize if saying that most wingchun is crap, but thats ok, this concerns me because I dont want to see it continue down the steep slide it is going down. The advantage to having practiced crap and then switched to good wing chun is I now know what the difference is. I would say my 7-8 months is worth about 2-3 years in in most schools.

Planetwc - I had heard from reliable sources that he practiced Chen style on the side, not to the extent Carl does however. If I made a mistake then I apologize. As for the chen style warmup drills, I do believe they might be Carls addition, designed to help us along faster. He spent a lot of time and effort to figure out how to help people "get it" faster then he did and it seems to help alot.
Regardless our focus is on wing chun, these are just warmup drills and there is no taichi added to our wingchun. Carl has not changed it from what Ken has taught him.
Also, as I mentioned before, Qi is never really discussed, just energy and intent.

[Rill]

I would say my 7-8 months is worth about 2-3 years in in most schools.
In the 16 schools you've visited.. maybe. I'm sure Yuanfen might object to you saying that about his school though, and I'm rather sceptical that you'd compare to any person in WC who's trained for 2-3 years.

Okay, okay, I get it now. You're trolling. It's got to be. I can't see any other possible explanation; you really have a Doctorate in Psychology and you're subtly manipulating us with your statements for some sick experiment.. right?.. please, someone tell me I'm right? Please?

[red5angel]

Rill, its alright to be skeptical, I would be too, but I have been open about getting people to take a look at what it is we are doing. As for Trolling, believe it or not, nope.

[kj]

Hi Jim. Long time no see. Enjoy your post here time to time.


Originally posted by Jim Roselando
I do not use the VTAA forum but have met Ken before. I do remember him saying;

In WC we do not speak in terms of Chi.


You are correct. For a long time Ken said he would avoid speaking of it at all, lest students become distracted and greedy for the search of it, in lieu of other necessary and traditional elements of Wing Chun practice.



I believe I read on this forum that Ken did a bit of Chen on the side and from looking at his WC I do not see Chen in his WC but if he did do it to help his root then more power to him but as you say he doesnt.


Correct again. Contrary to popular misconceptions, Ken does not practice Taiji. His own perspective can be referenced at Frequently Asked Questions about Ken's Wing Chun (http://www.rochesterwingchun.com/RWC_files/pages/readings/FAQ_Ken.htm).

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[kj]

Originally posted by red5angel
Planetwc - I had heard from reliable sources that he practiced Chen style on the side, not to the extent Carl does however. If I made a mistake then I apologize.

Speaking for myself (and not for David) your acknowledgement is appropriate and appreciated. The apology, however, seems most appropriately offered to Ken.

I sincerely and greatly admire your enthusiasm, and am very happy that you have found what you were looking for in Wing Chun. I further wish you the best in your continued learning and skill development.

I also, and more unfortunately, find that I am often in agreement with others that your assertions in this forum are more than a bit overboard. There is an old saying that "The empty pot clangs the loudest." Thus it should be no surprise for people to doubt your credibility.

If I were to offer advisement, (not that any has been solicited), it would be this: A little more listening, a lot more tact, and somewhat fewer assertions about others, no less unverified assertions about Ken, might be most apropos, IMHO.

I offer this in with kind intent, and in a well-wishing, and caring way. I believe you actually have ... or at least some day may have ... a lot of insight to offer. It would be a terrible shame if people came to permanently disregard you, especially on account of you disregarding them.

My apology for posting this here, but as your posts and opinions are also quite public and prolific, a sincere offering for contemplation seems appropriate and generous.

This of course represents only my humble perspective. I defer to my many seniors here and elsewhere for correction or admonishment if and as appropriate at any time.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[red5angel]

KJ - your comments are most definitely welcome and I understand what you are saying. Unfortunately I feel that wingchun is on a downward spiral, and though I may not be able to save it, for what can one man really do, I can hopefully open some eyes. Being nice to each other is one thing, and I am ok with that, but it is often said that sometimes different is good. I agree, there are many styles of kungfu and many of them are effective and well thought out. But I practice wingchun and sometimes what I see strays from the principles I have come to understand as wingchun.
To be honest the majority of my problem is seeing these people out there teaching who shouldnt be. Guys and gals who have studied a little and have decided they are ready to teach others without fully understanding what it is they are doing. They hurt themselves, they hurt thier students and they hurt wing chun in general. Too many people are modifying it to make it better or fill in the holes. The holes they percieve are in thier own knowledge of and understanding of wingchun in my opinion.
We can be ladies and gentleman and still discuss and disagree. As for offending someone, its a chance I am willing to take. I have seen plenty of goo dinfo on this forum, but most of it is just reflective of my feelings on what is being practiced out there.
Anyway, I have no intention of offending anyone directly, my info on Ken I thought was from a pretty reliable source, Carl never really talks about it, just his own practice with it. that combined with the info I got just made sense and so I didnt think to question it. Ultimately it is of little importance.

[kj]

Hi Red.

Thanks for your reply. I do appreciate the gesture.

I believe I understand your POV, though I do not wholly share your reasoning or conclusions. I don't presume it matters one whit, but I certainly do not approve of your approach.

I do not believe that you understand what I wrote, else you might not so easily disregard so much and so many. The haste of your reply alone indicates that you brushed past my words too quickly for comprehension.

Just for the record, some things actually are important, at least to others than yourself.

Good luck to you.
- Kathy Jo

[red5angel]

KathyJo, its not absolutely necessary that we agree. Like you said, you can do it your way and I can do it mine. I did read your post throroughly and I understand your points, but like you, I just see things differently. I appreciate the concern and the guidance, especially the link on Ken pointing me in the direction for good info on Ken and his practices.

[kj]

Originally posted by red5angel
I appreciate the concern and the guidance, especially the link on Ken pointing me in the direction for good info on Ken and his practices.

Thanks, and you are welcome.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[kj]

Hi wujidude. Your post was well put. You appear to have done your homework, and avoided undue assumptions. Unlike hoards before you, LOL.


Originally posted by wujidude
Perhaps it isn't accurate to say that Ken Chung actively practices Chen style taijiquan. But he certainly studies the art to understand it and exchanges information with leading lights of the Chen school such as Feng Zhiqiang, Chen Xiaowang and Chen Qingzhou.


I agree with this, and indeed, he does exchange and fellowship with those you mention.

It is, IMHO, relevant to distinguish "practice" from "study" in the sense of understanding (as you point out), examination, research and analysis, or even sheer curiosity.

Carl practices taiji. Ken does not. To say that both pursue considerable understanding is very fair I think.



And what led some of Ken's leading students to embrace the study of Chen taijiquan? Certainly seeing that their own WC teacher appeared to be learning something of value from his exposure to top-level Chen masters must have had some influence.


"Must" may be a bit too strong, but Ken's curiosity and insights may well have been among influencing factors for some. Without need to list others here, the FAQ suggests some others, and there are no doubt endless more possible factors.



I'm not even talking just about Carl Dechiara here. Tony Wong left WC study with Ken Chung years ago to pursue Chen taijiquan. What about Eddie Oshins? He studies with Chen Qingzhou, with Ken's knowledge and approval.


Also Max Ho. Still, these remain exceptions and not the rule to the student population.

Luckily, we do retain some Wing Chun people now and again. ;) :)

FWIW, Ken also has students who practice Tae Kwon Do and Hung Ga ... believe it or not. :) Those are just ones I know of, there are almost certainly others.



I think it's a little disingenuous to say that Ken's interest and involvement with Chen style taijiquan is limited to hosting dinners for visiting Chen masters and leading tour groups to China, although he does that too:


I don't recall anyone saying that, though perhaps it was perceived in the responses offered in the interest of informative balance.



I sense a somewhat frantic tone in the "FAQs" at kj's website and the repeated protestations on this forum that "Ken doesn't do Chen style."


Frantic no, but tired yes. If I and all the others who've addressed questions on this over the years had a penny for every minute ...

There is a FAQ only because the questions are so frequently asked, and incorrect assertions so often set forth. Red5Angel's would be an example of this; yours would not.

I hope your point was not to discourage people from reading the FAQ. :eek:



Legitimate concern that blurring of boundaries between arts will lead to the dilution or loss of WC practice according to WC principles, perhaps; disappointment at the loss of some senior students to another martial art, maybe (happens all the time); concern for marketing "pure" (or "classical") WC.


It has more or less relevance to different people for different reasons. For me personally your first issue of "Legitimate concern that blurring of boundaries between arts will lead to the dilution or loss of WC practice according to WC principles" is the key one. The others are of less concern to me.



Principles like relaxation while maintaining structure and developing sound rooting through stance work are common to a variety of different martial arts. It's no shame to learn a new, maybe more effective way of training a common principle from another martial art. Most of these arts were originally syntheses from preceding martial arts, anyways.


I totally agree. Seems to me that curiosity and interest to understand other arts, regardless of their similarities or dissimilarities is a generally a "good thing." Certainly I feel that Ken's good understanding of many arts is an asset for his own skill, and a benefit to the rest of us. Regardless of station (veteran instructor to newbie) our experiences and knowledge in other areas is a bonus.



A problem does arise when adopting a training practice from another art confuses or compromises the training in the primary martial art.


Again speaking only from my personal perspective, this does concern me as a legitimate "risk." And it is indeed the concern for managing such risks and misunderstandings as this and the one above, that give me pause to engage in discussions such as these.

I enjoy and appreciate my art sufficiently to hope that it will be sustained for enjoyment and utility by some future generations. I don't think I'm alone in hoping for that.

If we all become Chen junkies, I do think there is a legitimate chance we will mutually hasten the demise of what we currently enjoy and know. Of course maybe something different would be something better. It's not my aim to assert value judgments, but only to remind that without due consideration and caution, that what is will eventually no longer be.



For example, chansijin (silk reeling) in Chen taijiquan trains the body to move in a particular way that is to be demonstrated in the actual techniques of Chen taijiquan. Chansijin exercises can be used independently by WC practitioners to train relaxation and develop the sense of internal connection, but it seems to me there is a real risk of the WC practitioner inadvertently trying to move that way when doing Wing Chun.

At least Carl Dechiara doesn't seem to be teaching his WC students to move like Fu bagua tornados. :)

Let Ken Chung speak for himself.


A suggestion I have made many times myself, and continue to do so. Just yesterday, in fact.

In case I "appear" to try and speak for Ken, I do not. At the same time, I don't presume others should speak for him either.

Regarding the FAQ, Ken not only reviewed it, but his words were "I could not have said it better." Those were his words, not mine.

I do, at least occasionally, try to relay information as I know it when it seems relevant to do so, especially if it appears someone may be either uninformed or misleading others. If you have another suggestion, I would be grateful for it, especially if I am coming across wrong. I make that request with all sincerity, as I love to learn and to improve.



This piece (http://www.bawcsa.org/bio/KenNFZQ.html) about his meeting with Feng Zhiqiang of Chen style has been floating around for years, but speaks more clearly about what Ken Chung has gotten from Chen style than any of the quarreling on this forum:


While I treasure this piece, it is sections from this very one which taken out of context, have contributed the most to inadvertent misunderstandings and lent itself to supporting preferred viewpoints, IMHO.

Thank you for taking the time to put forth your thoughtful and well considered exchange.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[red5angel]

WOW! I didnt think I was going to be opening up a hornets nest like this! I dont think it is all the big a deal either way. IF Ken were to study Taiji (AND HE DOESNT) then who cares? He hasnt changed his wingchun. If he doesnt (AND HE DOESNT) then its no ones loss. he has a close relationship with some other martial artist, it happens sometimes :) . Regardless I cant imagine it is so scandalous! I understand where KJ is saying it comes up so often it can be tiresome but it is it really that big a deal to people who arent Ken? Lots of MA people practice more then one art, it doesnt mean they mix them. Some MA people dont practice more then one art, it doesnt mean they are worse then those who do. My only beef with mixing martial arts is for people who feel they are filling the "gaps" I think they should fill the gaps in thier knowledge first!
Anyway, KJ I apologize for sucking you into this thing and for implicating Ken has any sort of relationship with taichi other then knowing a few people who do it!

[red5angel]

It should also be noted that although Carl practices Taiji he does not mix it into his Wing chun, he has not changed his wingchun from what he was taught by Ken. He did some hard research into the art and came up with a few warmup excersises that help us to catch on to wing chun faster but nothing is mixed in.

[anerlich]

I would say my 7-8 months is worth about 2-3 years in in most schools.

*I* would say that after 7-8 months you are in no position to judge.

Unfortunately I feel that wingchun is on a downward spiral, and though I may not be able to save it, for what can one man really do, I can hopefully open some eyes.
Yuanfen, where's my bucket? vts, rill, my wheelie bin?

It is unfortunate you feel that way, even more unfortunate that you feel compelled to share it with everyone else here so frequently and repetitively.

I agree the expression "the empty pot clangs the loudest" is relevant, as is another, "the blind leading the blind".

Will you at least stop talking about taiji, about which you have NO direct experience? I only did it for 5 years, and I don't consider *myself* qualified to comment with any real authority, let alone someone who's only getting it second hand at best, and only for a few months.

The advantage to having practiced crap and then switched to good wing chun is I now know what the difference is.
The same thing applies to talking crap, and IMO you have yet to reach that point where your own statements are concerned.

wujidude, wazzup? You gotten any further with that RMA material?

[kungfu cowboy]

There's no such thing as bad publicity!:p

[RevTemerity]

Originally posted by anerlich replying to R5A

The same thing applies to talking crap, and IMO you have yet to reach that point where your own statements are concerned.


Not that anyone gives a rip what I generally think, but it has become my considered opinion on lists such as these (and all those others), that until my hands can match my mouth, I'd best keep my mouth shut.

Until then, it is talk less and work out more. If your time responding to mailing lists/bulletin boards even closely approximates your Wing Chun time, then baby, you have a problem :D

IMHO, of course.

[yuanfen]

Anerlich finally asks:
*I* would say that after 7-8 months you are in no position to judge.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unfortunately I feel that wingchun is on a downward spiral, and though I may not be able to save it, for what can one man really do, I can hopefully open some eyes.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yuanfen, where's my bucket? vts, rill, my wheelie bin?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lordy lord the savior has come- the collection bucket or the other one Anerlich. Its a great life of attention getting that red5angel leads. When I met him very briefly he was travelling the rennaisance fair circuit and the list has picked up an interesting carnival flavor. it takes more time than he has had to loosen up his ironing board stiff tan sao but the compulsive non reflective carnival barking posts are both hilarious and yet so sad. Gotta laugh between the buckets.

[kungfu cowboy]

While he may be appear a little overzealous in his approach, (sorry red:p ) that doesn't necessarily mean there is absolutely no truth in what he is saying.

[kj]

Originally posted by wujidude
Must be something in that Rochester NY water. You are WAY too civilized for the KFO forum. ;)

LOL. I just like trying to be a trendsetter. ;)

Regards,
- kj

[reneritchie]

KJ - Some very nice posts there. Sorry the trolls drove you to a FAQ.

Wujidude - Lots of good stuff as well, especially about seeing how others may go about seeking the same ends. What was it Sunzi said about knowing others? 8)

r5a - I enjoy the meat in much of your posts, but it's often spoiled by the hype. When many different people, from different places, and usually contrasting views start telling you the same thing, you should *really* consider listening. KJs advice was very good, contemplating it for a while couldn't hurt.

RR

[anerlich]

If your time responding to mailing lists/bulletin boards even closely approximates your Wing Chun time, then baby, you have a problem

I just got back to work after instructing a class at lunchtime. I'll be doing an hour of my own training before doing a second class tonight. And yourself?

I spent half an hour on the forum, tops, and then only because taking the pi$$ out of someone who is too full of himself is too much fun to pass up. If that makes me morally deficient, well, I'm still going to sleep OK tinight.

Any other words of advice anyone wants to share (red, you can excuse yourself from that request)?

[sunkuen]

*I* would say that after 7-8 months you are in no position to judge

I agree the expression "the empty pot clangs the loudest" is relevant

The same thing applies to talking crap, and IMO you have yet to reach that point where your own statements are concerned.

[sunkuen]

watcha referin' too..."the other white meat"

[Alpha Dog]

I'm just not feelin' the love out here...

[anerlich]

sunkuen, wujidude is referring to the two principal offerings of Russian MA in North America, Scott Sonnon of ROSS (based in Washington State) and Vladimir Vasiliev in Toronto.

Of course neither of them have anything to offer as none has studied WC for 7-8 months, though Scott used to be based in Minnesota.

[RevTemerity]

Originally posted by anerlich


I just got back to work after instructing a class at lunchtime. I'll be doing an hour of my own training before doing a second class tonight. And yourself?

I spent half an hour on the forum, tops, and then only because taking the pi$$ out of someone who is too full of himself is too much fun to pass up. If that makes me morally deficient, well, I'm still going to sleep OK tinight.

Any other words of advice anyone wants to share (red, you can excuse yourself from that request)?

I think you misconstrued the intent of my response, Andrew. Apparently, I've been away from mailing lists way too long for me to be all that clear. :( I wasn't referring to you, but rather, for lack of a better term, piling on.

Oddly enough, you are one of the people who moved me into the position of work out more, talk less ;)

For the record:

Time on this list/wk: 15-20min max.
Time doing WC: you know I'm going to say I do the sets every day in addition to my normal class workouts ;)

[red5angel]

Anerlich - good to hear you are working out at lunch, I do as well. If you are interested here is my schedule:

4:30 am - 6:30 am, 2 hours before work.
an hour at lunch which could be anywhere between 11 and 1, this is not everyday as sometimes there is no extra space but I would say I average 4 days a week.
In the evening I do anywhere from 1-2 hours, depending on what my wife has planned for me. :)
On the weekends I usually do 2-3 hours in the morning (On sundays I usually try to get some training partners over) and then I usually do another hour or two at night.
This all also includes going twice a week to classes each class was 2 hours but has moved to three. ;)

I would consider 3-4 hours a day pretty good, although if I didnt have a job or a wife, or both for that matter (Not that I dont love being married mind you!) I would love to be doing more.

[reneritchie]

Red - How the heck do you get away with that much time? Does your wife train as well?

<jealous and thinking of ways to ditch work cell phone...>


RR

[red5angel]

Hehe, well I use sensitivity, structure and precision! I am sensitive to her needs but was very precise before we got married in explaining that martial arts is a big part of my life and although I will make some concessions, she must understand that. I structure my schedule so that I am working when she is usually busy, for instance she works later and so sleeps in later then. In the evening, she makes dinner ( I cant cook to save my life!) so while she is doing that or her pilates, I do my workout then. If we have plans in the evening I just make sure I workout at lunch so I can squeeze 3 hours in total.

[Spectre]

You really should go back and try to read KJ's posts. It would really be a shame if you missed all of that thoughtful insight.

Many of your posts have great potential to motivate informative discussions but your marketing and admiration just serves to detract from your curious nature and enthusiam to learn.

Usually it is customary to let someone ask for help before actually TRYING to help them. Would you use the Heimlich Manuever on someone who wasn't choking? Your posting style would indicate so.

Too much arrogance. Focus on improving yourself first before trying to improve others.

Just my humble opinion...

Kevin

[sunkuen]

AAhhh, you speak of Vlad. I was working with a guy who was training with him....Heard it was pretty good stuff.

[Redd]

Originally posted by red5angel
Hehe, well I use sensitivity, structure and precision! I am sensitive to her needs

Lets take a poll.

Is his claim true or false?

How many times a day does the little lady say: Isn't it time for you to go to training now dear?

Who do you pity more: his wife or readers of this forum?

[Axiom]

Originally posted by Redd
How many times a day does the little lady say: Isn't it time for you to go to training now dear?If he talks at home anything like as much as he does here, probably a lot.

[kungfu cowboy]

Like that's a lot of time to spend away from a wife anyway! Marriage isn't honorary inclusion into the Siamese Twin Fraternity! (or is that sorority?)

[anerlich]

If you are interested here is my schedule

Gee, it's uncharacteristically thoughtful of you to consider whether I might be interested before you post large amounts of information about your activities and thoughts .... Oh, wait you went ahead anyway!

[anerlich]

Rev, sorry, I misunderstood the intent and target of your post.

AS you can see, it had little effect on myself and none whatsoever on its *intended* target.

[anerlich]

I picture our favourite poster sitting on the couch raving non-stop about Carl, Ken, rooting, internal over external, the utter cluelessness of all Minnesota Wing Chun schools except one, a diamond in a sea of sludge, and whatever other thought happens to be entering his head at the moment, and his missus sitting there reading a book or knitting, occasionally murmuring "Mmmm-hmmm" or "That's nice, dear..."


Like that's a lot of time to spend away from a wife anyway!

You're obviously not married! I didn't think it would be much either, but spouses tend to see things rather differently.

[kungfu cowboy]

No, I am not married, but I have been living with my girlfriend for over 5 years now, and routinely spend that much or more time away several times a week, and it's all good.

[RevTemerity]

Originally posted by anerlich
Rev, sorry, I misunderstood the intent and target of your post.

AS you can see, it had little effect on myself and none whatsoever on its *intended* target.

Regretfully, very, very true :( I think, though, a new world record was set in time to 500 posts, if that is any sort of merit badge to the intended target.

Definitely understand, though, that it is an itch you have to scratch. I seem to be developing a rash as well. I figure it is a signal to noise ratio thing :(