What is the difference between Red Boat Hung Gar and Red Boat Wing Chun

[FIRE HAWK]

What is the difference between Red boat hung Gar and Red boat Wing chun ?

[Kung Lek]

hi-

I would surmise that "Red Boat Hung Gar" was Hung Gar that was hidden in the traveling opera companies who used red boats to move along the riverways to tell folk stories and perform operas.

Many of the performers also learned Kung Fu on these boats, in secret. They learned the Kung Fu because Martial Flavour was required for many of the plays and operas that were popular.

At times Martial practice and study were outlawed in China and therefore, to learn it, it was done in secret or, in the case of the red boats under the pretense of performing arts.

This aided in hiding Martial Arts masters and in preserving traditional and authentic martial arts in China during those times.

So, the difference between the two would only be that Hung gar is Hung Gar and Wing Chun is Wing Chun. The systems as they were taught and practiced on the red boats may vary slightly dependent upon just how insular they became and just how much they were actually studied as fighting arts as compared to the performance aspects which would be used in the operas and plays.

And that is about all I know on the subject...

peace

Kung Lek

[tomcat]

Hi,
hung-gar and wing chun on the red boats was practiced in secrecy many revolutionary masters trained laymen rebel to overthrow the Ching Dynasty. (i.e,"destroy the ching restore the Ming"). As the moderator said Hung-Gar was Hung-Gar and Wing chun was wing chun.

tomcat

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Tomcatt is right and so is the moderator. These styles were taught by opera performing artist to layman. obviosly theses types of kung fu never reached a high level. they were practised in such secrecy that it was seldom used in public - knowing that they'll get slaughtered by the government officials - who were the real kung fu masters. Goog for lion dance though - I enjoy watching them during Chinese New Year.


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

[Kung Lek]

well...

the government officials had guns against swords and farm implements, so...well, you do the math.

It does not discredit the arts for their purpose and intention.
Wing Chun and Hung Gar are both formiddable martial arts and have survived because they are effective.

They also happen to be two of the most popular forms of CMA available to the world. They are still growing arts.

peace

Kung Lek

[irontiger]

red boat hung ga & red boat boat wc are very similiar, although they carry different names.let me explain according to historians one of the most
famous practioners of hung ga to whom credit is given for the development of hung ga is the famous
monk GEE SIM SI of shaolin,legend has it that he was a practioner of wing chun also and a contempary of ng mui. Although this form of wing chun is popular in europe, it is rarely seen here
its name GEE SIM WING TSUN its leader in europe is
a gentle man by the name of Andreas Hoffman.also some of the traits of this form of wc are very similiar to other village type hung ga styles that
differ from the cantonese hung ga made famous by
WONG FEI HUNG, LAM SAI WING & others and there is
a great possibility that these forms of hung ga may be the original way hung ga was practiced by the red boat people. later!

:cool:[EMAIL]martialmoves@hotmail.com[/EMAIL[EMAIL]null[/EMAIL ;)

[Paul Skrypichayko]

Gee Sim Sin Si was Ng Mui's master at the Southern Shaolin Temple.

"kung fu magazine historians" are getting way too romantic and imaginative with their ideas of the past regarding red boats, revolutionary armies, and all these "secret" village styles.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Kung Lek

"well... the government officials had guns against swords and farm implements, so...well, you do the math."

The revolutionaries you could equate to being today's terriorist, like the IRA, Hamas etc. etc. That's all they are. Which later evolved into gangsters doing narcortics, prostitution, illigal gambling etc.

"It does not discredit the arts for their purpose and intention. Wing Chun and Hung Gar are both formiddable martial arts and have survived because they are effective."

I agree on the purpose and intention bit. There are more effective systems than wing chun and CLF.

"They also happen to be two of the most popular forms of CMA available to the world. They are still growing arts."

That's true. Wing Chun had Brue Lee's promo. CLF had a relatively early foothold in America.

Paul,

"kung fu magazine historians are getting way too romantic and imaginative with their ideas of the past regarding red boats, revolutionary armies, and all these "secret" village styles. "

That's very true. And it's importsant to look into the raw historical facts to find out what actually happened. Perhaps William Wallace wan't that brave and Robin Hood kept some on the riches for himself.


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

[kungfu cowboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> There are more effective systems than wing chun and CLF.
[/quote]


What are they?

[Kung Lek]

hi-

ee- not sure where the clf came from, but it is popular too.

also, dependent upon ones perceptions and sympathies, you could describe revolutianaries in a variety of ways.

corruption exists everywhere, not just amongst the people who rebel against the geo-political wants of the government they happen to live under.

peace

Kung Lek

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

kungfu cowboy

Very simple, here's a few:

Ba ji
Pi Qua
Ba Gua
Northern Mantis
Miziong
Tai Chi
Hsing I

Southern Systems were practiced by peasants whereas Northern systems were for the military. I hope this answers your question.


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

[WongFeHung]

Hung-Ga was developed in the monastery, but was taught to laymen, which is entirely different. In the temple, there were two different monks, religious monks and warrior monks. Warrior monks came from every walk of life and many had military backrounds, many were high level martial artists who retired to the temple, or took up the cause, etc. The temple, southern esspecially- became a melting pot where the systems were further developed and refined to a high level. Southern systems like Hung-Ga,Wing Chun, Jook Lum Tong Long, in particular share common theory,technique and method with such styles as T'ai Chi Ch'uan,Ba Ji , Bot Gwa, Hsing-Yi, and others you have mentioned. Now, I am not speaking for all schools, (I know there are alot of Hung-Ga schools who are doing what I refer to as Karate with cool claws)but there is alot more to these systems than most people are aware of, and for that matter, than most Sifus would have you know. There is still a cloak of secrecy in southern systems-Cantonese still don't fully trust the Gwai-lo, or the Manderin for that matter-many still refer to them as Ching.

[tomcat]

Hello Ten Tigers, some people have a full cup and don't deserve a respone,he won't hear it anyway. But I must say yours is well informed and deserves a 5 star rating.

tomcat

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Ten Tigers,

That's very correct and consistant with my understanding. These days it is very difficult to find kung fu that is not ballet with fancy claws added on.

Ego believes that demise of kung fu resulted from the cultural revolution when fighting was outlawed by the government. Kung Fu was then institutionalized to become the Wu Shu in china.

However, kung fu in Taiwan continued to develop - by Chang Kai Sek's body guards and other military type people when the government was over thrown by the communist.

In Hong Kong, the immigrants were less so from the military background but were refugees and later on business people. In general Chinese in the South were more prosperous than the North contributing to the popularization on Southern Chinese Kung Fu.

In South East Asia - Malaysia etc... There was a heavy degree of Southern influence at a time when Karate and Tae Kwon Do became popular. Ego feels that the Xing Mo association started off as a good idea trying to gather the best of every style. However, unlike the old days - Shaolin Temple, Shang Dong He Bei etc.... there wasn't the combat environment to refine those idea. Plus, students these days have hardly enough time to complete a style let alone master many styles and perform research & development to make them better. As a result Xing Mo floundered and became a form learning exercise.


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

[GeneChing]

You might check out our SEP/OCT 2001 issue (on the newsstands now.) The cover story is on Wing Chun master Benny Meng, and it discusses Meng's perspective on the relationship of Hung Gar and Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun. Meng's research has aroused a lot of controversy in the Wing Chun world - definately worth checking out.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

[sifuchuck]

Has anybody read that cover story in that popular magazine? I'd be interested in knowing what it says. Don't hesitate to relate the story if you've read it-- :D

[irontiger]

with so much coming out of the martial arts closet
many do not wish to understand that much of what has been taught in regards to martial arts history
may not necessarily be.This is not to say that,many of the stories we heard from our sifu's
or fellow practioners are not true but that we
should look into other sources of history. remember this thing we call martial arts has been
derived from many sources.
thanking you for your time this

time till next time :cool:

[bean curd]

so are you going? or have you changed your mind?? remember your students are welcome if you are unable to go.

remember also i am a southern player, so i am simple, a yes or no answer will be enough.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Bean Curd,

I should be going but I'm not competing unless there's a section for the disabled.

My friend Leroy Brown should be competing. He's been training hard as usual and in any case he's a mean spirited b@stard. He works as a doorman for a club in Queens. gets into brawls reguarly, says that its good kungfu practice.


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

[South Paw]

bean curd

You are going to the Wong Fei Hung Tournament?
As bean curd or as ......

I just go as Klaas Padberg Evenboer, together with some students


Ego Extrodinaire

And the one in wheel chair will be you?

South Paw

[bean curd]

southpaw,

unfortunatly i will not be able to attend due to other commitments

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

The fat man in the wheel chair would be me. I was informed that there would be disabled access. If not a few of Yee's students would have to carry the full 250lbs of me up the stairs. I should be attending to watch Leroy whoop some butt.


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

[FIRE HAWK]

So i guess they kept the Hung gar style and the Wing Chun or Weng Chun style ,separet from each other on the Red Boats i mean the styles were known to be different from each other.Another thing is there any proof that maybe Red boat Hung gar and Red Boat Wing Chun or Weng chun might have been mixed togethor?

[BIU JI]

One is a rowboat and the other is a sailboat, I could be wrong though! :D

CHECK OUT THE MOOOOORTEN MATE!!

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Firehawk,

Actually it started off as one style. There were 2 types of red boats - big red boats and small red boats.

The sifu's in the big red boats did bigger movements to fill the available space - thus becoming Hung Gar. And the latter - became wing chun.

Later on these styles became popular to the extent that the number of students in those big red boats had to convert their style from Hung Gar to Wing Chun.

Some owners of the smaller red boats retired - and these boats became private yachts. Over time, these wing chun instructors evolved back into Hung Gar.

The determing factor is the availability of space. There's however a third factor which is the available of alcohol - resulting in swinging arm styles like Pak Hok pai.


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com