Yip Man and todays Wing Chun

[gnugear]

Just some thoughts so no flames please.

I was wondering if any of todays Wing Chun practitioners have surpassed the abilities of Yip Man. I know there's no way to tell, so again I'm just thinking out loud.

I always hear stories that sound like Yip Man was the end-all of Wing Chun information and ability. I think it's always a teacher's desire to have a student surpass his own abilities, so wouldn't it seem logical that some of todays practitioners may have surpassed what Yip Man could offer. Perhaps some of todays Wing Chun is better than what was studied in the Hong Kong days?

I've read that Yip Man was an inconsitent teacher. Some students getting different info and some that rarely touched hands with him.

Some instructors appear to adhere to Yip Man's teaching while others have evolved to incorporate other aspects. Some add grappling, and some add more of an internal development.

Thoughts or comments?

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by gnugear
I know there's no way to tell, so again I'm just thinking out loud.


Yawn

[red5angel]

I thin it would be a good confirmation of your own skill and ability if you cold pass on your teachings to students and watch them grow to surpass you. There are alot of stories about Yip Man out there and who knows what is true and what is fiction. For my lineage, we do know that he impressed Leung Sheung, who was a much bigger man with several years of martial training.

[gnugear]

Originally posted by Alpha Dog


Yawn

why does this bore you?

[yuanfen]

It does me!

Though a dozen red angel comments may emerge out of the void.

[red5angel]

Just two so far yuanfen ;)

Actually I find it an interesting subject. I hear alot of people say they cant/wont get as good as thier instructors or some of te other people higher up the wingchun tree, or I guess that would be lower down......anyway, why wouldnt you shoot to be atleast as good as your instructor or others who have good skill? If you were to mention taht you thought someone might be better then yip man at a wingchun get together glasses would drop, and the whole room would be staring at you like you were an idiot. To me, if you didnt want to be as good as your instructor or even better, then it is like going to shoot archery and not aiming at the target because you dont think you can hit it!
I am not saying you will get better but I think goals like that are admirable if applied respectfully.

[gnugear]

Originally posted by yuanfen
It does me!


:confused:

Why is this a boring topic!?

Are people content to think that nothing is better than what was embodied in a man until 1972?

... maybe it is, so why bother ... yawn

[yuanfen]

You not only have his personal fighting skills which we know bits and pieces of....but the kind of detailed(teacher's) legacyof the art he left behind with his good students is so formidable that we are still at the phase of discovering things about the art rather than surpassing them. Learning how to learn.Only a little over 50 years of general public exposure to his personal view of the art.We are still linking together the various perspectives of those who knew him.New paradigms dont supplant earlier paradigms very easily.

[red5angel]

You have a good point on Yip Man stuff, he did spread it out over many sources and now the project of sorting it out is left to later generations. I think Yip Man has been partially deified however and his myth is starting to outreach reality. Like any good CMA master, the stories grow with the seperation of time and audience. wingchun itself is young when compared to some arts yet no one is sure of its origins.......

[PHILBERT]

I bet there are a *few* who have surpassed Yip Man in fighting ability, but maybe not just using WC/WT. They might have previous experience in wrestling and use that to there advantage. However, I don't think the average Sifu is better than Yip Man. Then again what can we compare them to? Yip Man is no longer alive to share with us, and there are few video records of him doing Wing Chun.

[IronFist]

I don't know, so I'm just playing Devil's Advocate. Sure Yip Man was awesome, I don't doubt that, but do you think there's any of "exaggerating the master's abilities" going on?

Like I said. I dunno.

How old was Yip Man when he started training in MA? Wing Chun? Was WC his only art?

IronFist

[diego]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by wujidude
[B]The following biography from www.wingchunkuen.com indicates that Yip Man began learning from his first Wing Chun teacher Chan at about 13 years of age. I've never seen any references showing that Yip Man studied any other martial art before he took up Wing Chun, nor that he studied another art after beginning Wing Chun.

Wujidude, I'm sure i read in one of the popular articles, ipman knew alot about the local hongkong styles, but strictly practised wingchun...I have no idea where i read this!:cool:

[Grendel]

Originally posted by yuanfen
You not only have his personal fighting skills which we know bits and pieces of....but the kind of detailed(teacher's) legacyof the art he left behind with his good students is so formidable that we are still at the phase of discovering things about the art rather than surpassing them. Learning how to learn. Only a little over 50 years of general public exposure to his personal view of the art. We are still linking together the various perspectives of those who knew him. New paradigms don't supplant earlier paradigms very easily.
Hi Yuanfen,

Good solid points as always.

God knows how he acquired his knowledge, but I don't believe it possible that anyone has surpassed Yip Man's knowledge. As for his ability, perhaps a Wing Chun practitioner of greater size and strength could have beaten him in a fight after a comparable amount of training, but we can only conjecture since none of us knows all that Yip Man knew. And, if Gnugear means to question Yip Man's ability as a teacher, as opposed to him as a fighter, wouldn't it follow then that Yip would have universally less qualified followers, so gnugear's question would be answered with a resounding "no." :)

Regards,

[reneritchie]

Who here knew Yip Man sifu and touched hands with him? Who then touched hands with every other WCK practitioner? Who then factored out any personal differences and came up with an acurate assessment of where everyone stands in relation to Yip Man?

Anyone? If not, its just an onanistic exercise, and as others have pointed out, a fairly boring, potentially problematic one.

>> but I don't believe it possible that anyone has surpassed Yip Man's knowledge.

See the problem with stuff like this? Some people on this forum come from lineages with no connection to Yip Man sifu. Should they then take that as an insult, and must a 700 post flame war ensue? ;)

RR

[old jong]

We all know what happens when someone can't make the differences between respect,appreciation and...Idolatry!

[Grendel]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Who here knew Yip Man sifu and touched hands with him? Who then touched hands with every other WCK practitioner? Who then factored out any personal differences and came up with an acurate assessment of where everyone stands in relation to Yip Man?

Anyone? If not, its just an onanistic exercise, and as others have pointed out, a fairly boring, potentially problematic one.

It can still be valid to speculate on whether anyone has surpassed Yip Man in Wing Chun teaching skills as an opportunity to examine WCK teaching in general and to access our progress. I still believe what Yuanfen said: that old paradigms are hard to replace with new paradigms. Clearly Yip Man was a noted martial artist in Hong Kong, a hotbed of Kung Fu, much like modern day Minneapolis. :) A broader question would be what if any modifications to Wing Chun that have come about across lineages in the last 50 years are truly improvements and which are worthless add-ons or violations of Wing Chun principles?



>> but I don't believe it possible that anyone has surpassed Yip Man's knowledge.

See the problem with stuff like this? Some people on this forum come from lineages with no connection to Yip Man sifu. Should they then take that as an insult, and must a 700 post flame war ensue? ;)

RR
Since the vast majority of Wing Chun students in the world are Yip Man people, isn't it you who are being insulting by trying to stifle this discussion because you study a different branch of Wing Chun?

Have you ever really thought about following Red5Angle's advice and finding a Yip Man sifu, such as Carl? :) :) :)

[red5angel]

RR - I understand where you are coming from. I think Yip Man has become more of a focus sometimes then what is actually going on in front of a person. He was obviously very very good at what he did. My own lineage is a good example! Leung Sheung was a big guy, wth MA training and he couldnt touch the Man. But I think Yip Man was still a human beingand had his own limitations. I am not sure what the obsession is with Yip Man, he started a good thing by bringing it to Hong Kong, of course look at all the problems he caused by teaching so many people supposedly so many variations!

[Grendel]

Originally posted by red5angel
RR - I understand where you are coming from. I think Yip Man has become more of a focus sometimes then what is actually going on in front of a person.

Good point. :) But it was the subject of the thread. Don't comment on the thread if you choose not to.


He was obviously very very good at what he did. My own lineage is a good example! Leung Sheung was a big guy, wth MA training and he couldnt touch the Man. But I think Yip Man was still a human beingand had his own limitations. I am not sure what the obsession is with Yip Man, he started a good thing by bringing it to Hong Kong, of course look at all the problems he caused by teaching so many people supposedly so many variations!
I'd like to suggest two points:

One: 5-feet-10-inches is not BIG by today's standards. Obviously, Leung Sheung was bigger than the 5-feet-four-inch Yip Man.

And B: (as Biff would say) Perhaps all the "variations" Yip taught were the results of differences among his students:e.g. listening skills, or perhaps, individual physical differences.

IMO, which I share with my teachers and seniors, is that if a small woman cannot do it, it isn't Wing Chun.

[reneritchie]

Grendel -

<<It can still be valid to speculate on whether anyone has surpassed Yip Man in Wing Chun teaching skills as an opportunity to examine WCK teaching in general and to access our progress.>>

You can speculate, but it doesn't mean it has to be valid. There are many areas that could be touched on to lend more weight to the discussion - Yip Chun's assertion that, as a trained teacher, he could *teach* better than his father, the progress of teaching methodology in general, the progress in understanding physical endeavors (physilogy, neurology, etc.), the availability of differing perspectives (many skilled teachers, books, vcds, tapes, etc.) for cross-referencing, etc.

<<what if any modifications to Wing Chun that have come about across lineages in the last 50 years are truly improvements and which are worthless add-ons or violations of Wing Chun principles?>>

What if any modifications from the previous 50 years are truly improvements? Who here really understand "Wing Chun principles" as an absolute? In fact, is the goal of studying WCK to be good at WCK at all?

<<Since the vast majority of Wing Chun students in the world are Yip Man people, isn't it you who are being insulting by trying to stifle this discussion because you study a different branch of Wing Chun?>>

Fine, be insensitive as well as insulting. We're used to being treated callously by the unfeeling majority 8P

<<Have you ever really thought about following Red5Angle's advice and finding a Yip Man sifu, such as Carl?>>

Nah, I dig the counterculture. ;)

RR

[red5angel]

although you have to admit that in China 50 years ago LS would not have been considered a small guy by any means!
I absoilutely think that women should be able to do it! Effectively as well, against larger opponents! that means muscle has to be as small a factor as possible!

[Grendel]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Grendel -

Hi. :)


<<It can still be valid to speculate on whether anyone has surpassed Yip Man in Wing Chun teaching skills as an opportunity to examine WCK teaching in general and to access our progress.>>

You can speculate, but it doesn't mean it has to be valid.

I didn't say it has to be valid, but that it could be valid. :)


There are many areas that could be touched on to lend more weight to the discussion - Yip Chun's assertion that, as a trained teacher, he could *teach* better than his father, the progress of teaching methodology in general, the progress in understanding physical endeavors (physilogy, neurology, etc.), the availability of differing perspectives (many skilled teachers, books, vcds, tapes, etc.) for cross-referencing, etc.

See, I think you like this thread. :)


<<what if any modifications to Wing Chun that have come about across lineages in the last 50 years are truly improvements and which are worthless add-ons or violations of Wing Chun principles?>>

What if any modifications from the previous 50 years are truly improvements? Who here really understand "Wing Chun principles" as an absolute? In fact, is the goal of studying WCK to be good at WCK at all?

Regarding the last point: is the goal to suck at Wing Chun? Of course most practitioners want to be good at Wing Chun. Don't you? If not, why not? :)


<<Since the vast majority of Wing Chun students in the world are Yip Man people, isn't it you who are being insulting by trying to stifle this discussion because you study a different branch of Wing Chun?>>

Fine, be insensitive as well as insulting. We're used to being treated callously by the unfeeling majority 8P

Hey! :) That hurts. :) I'm a sensitive 21st century guy. Those ATT TV commercials get me all misty. :)


<<Have you ever really thought about following Red5Angle's advice and finding a Yip Man sifu, such as Carl?>>

Nah, I dig the counterculture. ;)

RR
LOL! Yeah, me too, but I still revere Yip Man's contributions. :)

[reneritchie]

Hey Grendel,

> I didn't say it has to be valid, but that it could be valid.

That's valid, I s'pose ;)

> See, I think you like this thread

Aspects. Only aspects.

> is the goal to suck at Wing Chun? Of course most practitioners want to be good at Wing Chun. Don't you? If not, why not?

Wing Chun, for me, is a path, not a destination. My hope is that I get good *through* WCK, not @ WCK.

> Hey! That hurts. I'm a sensitive 21st century guy. Those ATT TV commercials get me all misty.

Grendel, stop trolling 8P

BTW- Grendel as in Beowulf or as in Argent?

RR

[Grendel]

Hi Rene,


Originally posted by reneritchie

> is the goal to suck at Wing Chun? Of course most practitioners want to be good at Wing Chun. Don't you? If not, why not?

Wing Chun, for me, is a path, not a destination. My hope is that I get good *through* WCK, not @ WCK.

Speaking of paths, you've sidelined Gnugear's thread. You're nitpicking. Or, you're sincere, which makes it worse. :)



BTW- Grendel as in Beowulf or as in Argent?

Grendel as in Beowulf. :) Does "Argent" have some special meaning in Canada? Other than its French translation? Am I missing out on some literary diversion?

Regards,

Grendel as in Beowulf (Harrumph!) :)

[reneritchie]

Hey Grendel,

> Speaking of paths, you've sidelined Gnugear's thread. You're nitpicking. Or, you're sincere, which makes it worse.

Hijacked, but I had an accomplice. And I'm sincere ;)

> Does "Argent" have some special meaning in Canada? Other than its French translation? Am I missing out on some literary diversion?

Argent was a wolf and the nemesis of Matt Wagner's assasin who shared your nom de guerre.

RR

[Alpha Dog]

Geraldine! back to your dark cave!