Is kung fu fighting really that complicated?

[KC Elbows]

OK, a lot of people talk about how complicated kung fu is, some for and some against.

Now, I'm not talking about the styles here, obviously most styles are made up of a large number of techniques. I'm talking about actually fighting with them.

One teacher of mine said that a person could be a good fighter with anywhere from five moves to twenty moves, meaning that they used those moves in fighting, not just form. He used to say that no one uses every move in the style in fighting, they find the ones that are best for them.

Meanwhile, the main argument for kung fu's superiority is that there's more moves than a style like muay thai. However, most fighters don't really use that many more moves, IMO, but just have a greater encyclopedia of knowledge to choose from when developing as a fighter, so that, while one could reasonably know what to expect from a muay thai fighter, one would have little idea what one tai chi fighter might actually fight like, as one wouldn't know the moves they specialized in.

So, is it really that complicated?:)

[kungfu cowboy]

If it's complicated, that means that it is going to be more difficult to use in a real situation, meaning possibly missed opportunity for defense, or you get whooped. The more simplistic the better. But simple doesn't mean stupid.

[gazza99]

"Meanwhile, the main argument for kung fu's superiority is that there's more moves than a style like muay thai"

I dont know whose arguement that is, but its not relevant. A few really good moves are better than a library of crappy ones. I would say kung-fu can have more depth in more ways than MT becuase of the quality of momement, whats behind them, the mechanics..etc. I dont have time to make a list..lets here from someone else..im going to bed!

Gary

[JusticeZero]

MT stylists are good 'fighters', but in a number of situations I have heard MT stylists bemoaning their own art. Why? MT has a small selection of tools which they are very good at. However, those tools are all focused on a narrow band of the threat scale. They have no 'drunk uncle bob' techniques, nor less damaging disarms, etc - They have a very good hammer, but not everything they find is a nail.
KF and other arts with larger libraries have much wider varietioes of response for a given situation.

[BrentCarey]

As you may have read in some of my other posts, I am a proponent of the notion that a kung fu combatant properly trained is superior to a practitioner of a simpler style properly trained.

The catch here is that it is more difficult and time-consuming to become "properly trained" in some of kung fu's more complicated techniques than it is to become "properly trained" in simpler techniques.

Let me give an example.

I can teach a person (student A) to do a proper rising block and straight punch combination in well under an hour. I will define a "rising block" as a fairly simple forearm block that starts at the abdomen and rises over the head, clearing anything that might be in its path. I will define a "straight punch" as being a simple corkscrew-style punch from the hip. The combination would consist of a simple block and counter. This is a simple technique common to many styles with only slight variations.

With a few days of practice, the person will be able to block and counter using these techniques in canned self-defense. In a few months, he/she can probably use them effectively in combat (assuming the person is otherwise ready for combat).

I can confidently say that a person with reasonable perception, confidence, and physical conditioning can have this pretty well down within 2-3 months (all else being as it should). This technique is just not very difficult and doesn't require a great deal of speed or accuracy, even in combat.

I take an identical student (student B) and teach him/her chao twe or a hook kick. I will define this move as blocking the punch by intercepting the attacker's wrist with the defender's same hand. Then while controlling the attacker's wrist, simultaneously striking the neck with a knife hand while kicking the attacker's leg out from under him at the back of the ankle.

This technique requires much more speed, better accuracy, superior positioning, greater perception (to recognize the opportunity), and faster thinking. It might take a student several sessions just to grasp the technique, and probably a year or more to really be able to deploy it effectively. The prerequisite traits I just mentioned are more demanding as well, increasing training time even more.

In short, all else being equal, student A will be better, sooner. However, once student B develops the prerequisite skills to really pull the technique off in combat, student A has no chance. His linear, clunky, and predictable moves will be no match for student B's more precise, flexible, and less predictable moves.

So, if for no other reason than training, the more complicated moves are superior. To master them, you must develop more speed and faster perception. Generally, the person with the greater speed and faster perception will prevail (all else being more or less equal).

Am I saying to train complicated moves, but use simple moves? Not really. I am saying to train complicated moves. If your opponent is slow enough for you to use them in combat, they can give you a distinct advantage. These moves WILL make you faster, and if you need to use moves that are more direct and quicker to deploy, you will be able to do so with superior accuracy, speed, and control.

Someone is reading this right now and asking, "If you had superior speed, then why wouldn't you just use your fastest techniques and be done with it?" To answer this, let's imagine a kickboxer with average speed vs. a Long Fist practioner with excellent speed. (Before the hate mail starts, I am not saying that kickboxers have inferior speed. I'm just saying that this one does for the purpose of the illustration.)

OK. Toe to toe, the kickboxer throws a punch. The most direct response for th KF guy is to block and counter directly. However, the kickboxer is well equipped to block this sort of straight-on attack, and may very well be faking the punch to get the KF guy to move his guard anyway.

So, the KF guy will have to play the block-and-counter game quite a bit and fairly well because even though he may be faster, he is playing into his opponent's strengths. The KF guy must use his superior speed to get behind the kickboxer (out of his "zone") and counter with a less direct attack that is harder for the kickboxer to predict.

Incidentally, in my experience this is the best way to defeat a proficient kickboxer because they tend to pretty much govern that front 90 degrees, but count on being able to prevent their opponent from slipping behind. I digress.

So, the KF guy must use his superior speed to execute less direct and less predictable techniques to penetrate his opponent's defenses.

If the KF guy lacks superior speed, he will probably lose unless he resorts to short, direct techniques (like the kickboxer), in which case he will be evenly matched (more or less).

So, in short (if I am capable of being brief):

- Speed is an asset.
- Fast perception and quick thinking are assets.
- Direct techniques are assets.
- Indirect techniques are assets.
- Deceptive techniques are assets.
- Training indirect and deceptive techniques will make you faster, improve your perception, and force you to think faster.
- Training indirect and deceptive techniques will improve your direct techniques.
- It takes more time and effort (kung fu) to gain the skill necessary to use more complicated techniques.
- Practitioners who have taken this time and effort are vastly superior to those who haven't (all else being equal).
- Many more complicated techniques require much less energy than simpler techniques with comparable effects.
- Many more complicated techniques require much less committed motion than more direct techniques, allowing the practitioner to change techniques more readily and to a greater advantage.

All this in well under the 10,000 word limit. I hope someone finds this useful.

Peace,

Brent Carey

[No_Know]

People seem to tend to not train as in olden days China. So (needle-and-thread) they use simple moves they get from television or sport or brawling.

Certain techniques for certain techniques. All you'll see me use is simple techniques if all I face are simple techniques. But if I Train in Kung-Fu, when I meet another strategist with more than simple moves of the uninitiated~ and the impatient..I can do that too.

I have heard something to the effect that people in a real fight situation forget most of what they trained. If I train bare minimum what I expect from most fights around me, that leaves me with near no thing. If I train complex maneuvers, when I forget most of it, I might still retain enough strategy to over come the general simple moves. The more complex my training, the more I would be left with when I forget most of it.

Seemingly, some-such, perhaps, some might say.

[KC Elbows]

I generally agree, although I don't think, when the practice is put in and all is said and done, the moves are necessarily complicated, they just seem that way before you really understand them, if that makes any sense.

[Mr Punch]

The actions aren't.

The responsiveness is.

And even more complicated when your fighting another trained person from another style.

[KC Elbows]

But isn't the responsiveness, once trained, decidedly uncomplicated?

For instance, in the system I practice, a form of sticky hands is utilized. Now, when I first found myself sticking in sparring, I'd force it all over the place, complicating the whole process.

However, I learned over time that if I understood good structure, and kept myself in a good structure, when the moment of stickiness occured, it became clear what ways to shift in order to maintain structure. Before this understanding, I would try to move in all sorts of different directions, but after, I knew the limited number of directions to move to utilize my system. Therefore my options were limited to a finite number, simplifying the task of dealing with the situation.

I agree, the process of internalizing it all is probably pretty complex, but the actual act of performing kung fu once it is internalized, I hold, is simple.

[BrentCarey]

Right. I used the term "complicated" to contrast them with simple and direct techniques. Couldn't think of a better term.

[KC Elbows]

Oh, I agree with all the posters on some level, and Brent, your post was brilliant.

An example of my point, hopefully using a move that will be understandable to most. There is a crane defense someone showed me once. Someone punches right hand, you crane block right hand to the outside of their arm, then your left hand presses their chin back as a distraction while your right crane block turns into a grab on their right wrist, then bring the left hand under their restrained right hand and grab your right forearm with your left hand, kind of making a triangle with your arms that their right arm is caught in a chin na in, then turn your waist and they will be driven backwards.

I think I did a poor job describing it, but it's actually a pretty simple move for a chin na. Anyway, if someone just watches the form, it looks very complicated, and someone might say "How the hell are they gonna do that at a full speed fight?"

However, that assumption is false. Once the right hand is grabbed, the speed of the fight is slowed a little. Once the chin is pressed, the speed becomes even slower, and once the chin na is in place, it is affected even further.

Most of the more advanced stuff I know is like that(not that I know all sorts of advanced stuff, just going off of my own experience). A succession of events that each increase the likelihood of the next event. Point A makes Point B a likelihood, point B makes point C a strong possibility, point C makes point D a near certainty, Point D makes Point E unavoidable.

Now, this is where the training can be complicated, because there's a bunch of point B's, C's, D's, E's, F's, etc, so that if you get to point A and something goes in a new direction, you know the point B to go for to make it into a point C and beyond.

[KC Elbows]

That's also why I get annoyed when people can't see a purpose to low stances. If an opponent is twisted like a pretzel on the ground, wouldn't it be better to be rooted and stable rather than bent over holding them?

[HuangKaiVun]

Kung fu is SUPPOSED to be simple.

This is how it goes: somebody attacks you, you either grab back or HIT HIM. You don't think, you just DO IT.

To train that type of spontaneous reaction, one does forms and drills. But keep in mind that not all styles have effective ways of training that type of reaction.

The best way to find out if kung fu is supposed to be simple is get into the ring and SPAR. You'll find that the complicated maneuvers don't work consistently and that a simple maneuver (usually found somewhere in your training set in a formalized fashion) gets the job much better.

In the ring, what comes naturally (even occasionally the urge to run) is usually the RIGHT response. Don't fight it.

[Stone Monkey]

I agree that simple techniques will likely be more effective in a realistic self-defense situation, although a well trained, relaxed mind will likely react in a more sublte and less predictable manner than an aggressor, possibly allowing for escape, a joint-lock, etc. (as opposed to a simple slugfest). Kung Fu can give you options you might not have with a more 'specialized' art.
Just an opinion.

(excellent post BTW Brent!)

[Bolt]

An old Shaolin saying : "I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."


I agree with most of what's said - a "system/style" can be complicated, though there are some that are designed to be taught/learned quickly and effective asap (eg.; Wing Chun). One can take and "master" a small set of moves and become very effective in real situations. For an entire "system" to be effective, one must "master" the entire system .... takes, mucho, mucho time and dedication that would include the spontaneous or instantaneous reactions and reflexes being developed to (properly) perform the techniques of any given style. As it stands, one can learn a very small subset of my style's first form - master that small sample - and have success in real world fight situation.


.02

[red5angel]

I have to go with gazza99 on this, whoever made that argument is an idiot. some of the concepts can be deep or hard to grasp for some, but most kungfu guys do pick a few moves that really work for them and use those. It doesnt mean they dont train the whole system, you can always add to or subtract from it. you may have more options but in general it doesnt take a whole lot of moves to win a fight.

[KC Elbows]

Well, I'm the idiot who made that statement, and let's see how you do after working 20 hours, Mr. Red5Angel. :D

Geez, one little mistake, and every one has to jump on me. Well, since we're being that way:

:p

[Black Jack]

KISS-Keep It Simple Savage

Hicks Law-The more responses you have to think about the slower you will be to respond to a specific action.

[red5angel]

:p Sorry KC! I stuck my foot in my mouth I guess since I respect MOST of the things you say! ;)
I think all types of martial arts and all types of people have thier good and bad points! CMA is good if it works fo you, but you also have to work for it. This goes for any art although I think those boxers are sort of lazy ;)

[SevenStar]

I always thought it was Keep It Simple Stupid

[Braden]

Complex, as in lots of techniques and techniques with lots of movement? No way! Check out the bagua circlewalking thread - the most important practice and that which takes up the majority of the stylists time, dedicated to exploring simply retracting one hand while extending the other. The movements are so simple; it's the skill you develop in such an overtly simple movement that you could call complex.