Stregnth training and Tai chi

[SSgungfu]

I had a question thats been plaguing me.............since I began training.

What are your views on stregnth training and tai chi? Now here me out; I do not mean lifting weights for the benefit of harder punches. I mean lifting weights because I like to lift weights. Will this compromise my taichi practice and body integrity?

I love to do pushups and pullups and situps and squats and freeweights, it is just a part of me as taichi. Will this set me back further from my goals in taichi, ie being relaxed and in proper alignment? Someone shed some light please. :)

[Kumkuat]

I do those too. Weight training is a big, important part of me. But so is taiji. And the popular opinion among high level masters and practiciners is that weight training is not good for taiji practice since you're strengthening your 'external' strength while your internal strength weakens. That's one of my excuses on why I suck so bad. :)

But who knows, maybe those guys are wrong. But if worst comes to worst and there is solid proof that weight training is harming my internal training, I guess I have to give somethin gup.

[kungfu cowboy]

That strength trainig is bad for you stuff is pure BS. It could possibly be bad for your tai chi if you practice everything like you are flexing or something. There is no reason it would be anything other than beneficial if done correctly.

[SSgungfu]

I agree. As long as I dont take the weights to the extreme, like powerlifting and juicing, I don't see a problem. If anything you could say it helps the 'linking energy' between muscles.

I also think it is important not to forget about the stretching before and after...to stay limber.

[bob10]

Lifting weights won't really improve your taiji but what your teacher should be showing you are power training methodslike using a staff, iron ball, light weights and so on. Trouble is a lot of these methods are not really seen outisde of the family schools.

[kungfu cowboy]

Lifting weight probably will improve your tai chi, as it will increase the strength of the stabilizing muscles that tai chi relies on. At worst, weightlifting will have no effect on your tai chi unless you train like a doofus.

[bob10]

Depends on what we are talking about by lifitng weights. If we are talking serious gym weight training then it will tend to shorten the muscle and so make it tighter. Which is why traditional tai chi training tend to use the methods I mentioned.
It's better to use light weights in a free-movement environment than fixed heavy weights.

[crumble]

Originally posted by SSgungfu
As long as I dont take the weights to the extreme, like powerlifting and juicing, I don't see a problem. If anything you could say it helps the 'linking energy' between muscles.

For what it's worth, my teacher recommends powerlifting and "cheats" because the whole body must work in a united fashion to do the lift. He warns against body-building type exercises because the body remains segmented.

In other words, a power clean will develop coordination over the entire body, but bicep, tricep, hamstring, quad. curls and extensions will only build the targeted muscle in isolation to the others.

-c

p.s. Space monkeys really like soup.

[Kumkuat]

Originally posted by crumble


In other words, a power clean will develop coordination over the entire body, but bicep, tricep, hamstring, quad. curls and extensions will only build the targeted muscle in isolation to the others.



Yeah, but do you control the direction with the dantien? Do you use the six harmonies principle? Do you use qi instead of li to lift it? Are you relaxed at all times when you lift it? See, the only way weight lifting can benefit taiji or any other internal art, you have to lift it 'internally.' Anyway, there is no way I'm relaxing when I'm squatting heavy.

The power exercises like taiji sphere, pole shaking, even light weights like taiji bang are done 'internally.' They are also done to strengthen the dantien.

[kungfu cowboy]

I don't think that muscle length changes, as they have to remain attached to the bones, whose lengths most probably do not change either.

[kungfu cowboy]

Besides, there are lots of other general health reasons that lifting is good for you. If you don't want to lift, you don't have to. If someone wants to use it as an excuse not to lift because of some weird sense of guilt that its bad for the ethereal tai chi skills, that's ok too.:p Tai chi is an art that uses the body mechanics that are expressed through the amazing meat machine.

[Walter Joyce]

I have to disagree. Lifting weights will hurt your taiji. The tone created by lifting and the inherent tension that is contained within the muscle that creates the toning inhibits the type of internal lengthening inward and outward that is basic to effective taiji. (I think you should re-think the meaning of lengthening in this context KFC.) It also adds tension in a lot of subtle ways that again intefere with the quality of song. This is at the beginner level.

While weighted exercises are used in the at more advances levels, this is only allowed once the practitioner has achieved the quality of song, and can MAINTAIN it even under pressure or physical stress. (Think push hands.)

I have to question why you would want to weight train to begin with. The strength developed my western weight training methods and the internal strength developed by taiji are antithetical. There are more than enough traditional training methods that lead to the proper qualities in your body without impeding your progress. Body weight exercises are more than adequate to strengthen stabilizer muscles, and also train the other qualities that are associated with classic taiji.

In a nutshell, if you try and chase two rabbits at the same time, the best you can hope for is catching one. Odds are it will be external strength you end up with, not the true internal strength that lies at the heart of classic taiji.

Good training,
Walter

[kungfu cowboy]

Well, to each their own!:)

[Repulsive Monkey]

The fact of the matter is, is that Weight lifting will not improve your Taiji, and thats that really. Even if you train every muscle internally and externally in your practice equally, there is always a chance there will be some bias and imbalance in you muscle development. This can have a effect in Qi transmission through issuing or even just for the sinking the Qi to get a sunk alignment. I remember once reading an article in an American Taiji magazine by a so called Taiji teacher (how he can himself that when he had only been practicisng for 5 years!??) saying that weight lifting was in fact the future of Taiji, and if you didn't do it you wouldn't get anywhere.
Taiji masters of the past didn't need to train with weights because their methods aloowed them to excell with just form practice, standing postures, Qi cultivation and sparring. If they reached high levels with that why bother disrupting it with external training, which will mostly just confuse the isuues of internal cultivation which is so key to Taiji development.
Taiji takes years of undoing the mess that has accrued by musclar tension created intentionally and unintentionally, why add insult to injure as far as your body is concerned?

[Walter Joyce]

Well said RM. And if I might add, a larger problem is lurking here. Too many people "practice" taiji without finding out what it might actually be. DISCALIMER: I don't claim to be the only one that understands what taiji is.

Consider this: the classic literature is replete with the notion that ANY internal art done without true INTERNAL strength is a sham. This establishes the necessity for internal strength if one wishes to claim that they are practicing taiji, as it is an internal art (and btw, a martial art as well, too many people have forgotten that aspect).

Well then, what is internal strength? I won't answer that for you, but I will tell you this, you don't get it lifting weights. And IMHO, by comparison to external strength, internal strength is the superior method for fighting skill. It will take a lot longer to develop usable skill using the internal method.

If you want to train externally, more power to you (I spent years on this path). To each their own. If you want to claim you train in taiji, then take the trouble to find out what that means, then decide if you want to make the committment. IMHO, if you make the committment, you'll be setting the weights aside.

Good training,
Walter

p.s. At this point in time I have no financial or commercial interest in the teachings of ANY martial art. I make my living elsewhere. I train because I love it, and can't imagine life without daily training. Don't ask me why, but I felt it necessary to say that.

[crumble]

" Tai chi is an art that uses the body mechanics that are expressed through the amazing meat machine."

:D

Ultimately, everyone is going to have to decide for themselves.

I was answering SSgungfu's original question on whether he should give up lifting in order to get good at tai chi. I don't belive he needs to, but he should know that time spent lifting is time you could be spending on tai chi. And if he wants to get the most complimentary muscle development for tai chi, he should do powerlifting.

Taking a step back, this is my current way of thinking:

I'm 32 years old now and I'm realizing the incredible ability I had to train when I was in my late teens and twenties. I could both weight train and exercise in the same day. (I wasn't doing martial arts, I was rock climbing at that age). There is NO WAY I could train with that intensity anymore. I couldn't recover. Now I can do a single 2-3 hour work out about 5 times a week.

I've also noticed that once muscle is gained, it takes very little to keep it. So all the work I did in my twenties is still paying off. My 62 year old teacher says that basically you hit your physical (muscular) peak at 30 and every decade you lose about 10%.

So here's my suggestion for the SSgungfu (born in 1984): If you love weights and tai chi, then powerlift and do your tai chi. Build that foundation. But you should also know that when you get older, you might have to decide which rabbit you are going to chase as Walter (born in 1956) said.

-crumble

[Liokault]

The problem with weights in tai chi is that you can use brute strength to hide poor technique and instead of realiseing this and working on your technique you can just try to get stronger.

In the end you are no longer doing tai chi.

I think the way to do it is do as much weight training as you like but realise where your ability in tai chi is failing and the brute strength is taking over. Then you need to work on pushing that back.

Also if you are doing things with brute strength instead of teqnique do not let your self be fooled into thinking that your tai chi is improveing.

[crumble]

Originally posted by Liokault
The problem with weights in tai chi is that you can use brute strength to hide poor technique and instead of realiseing this and working on your technique you can just try to get stronger.

In the end you are no longer doing tai chi.

I think the way to do it is do as much weight training as you like but realise where your ability in tai chi is failing and the brute strength is taking over. Then you need to work on pushing that back.

Also if you are doing things with brute strength instead of teqnique do not let your self be fooled into thinking that your tai chi is improveing.

Well said!

-c

[Zantesuken]

so is it okay to do thingsl ike situps and pushups?
cause my si hing once told me that during your practise in tc you'll need to do some sort of external stimulation once in a while. i also do wushu so that's pretty external except it trains your whole body rather than just isolated areas.

so things like jumps and pushups are those okay to do? i do it for a fitness thing. i don't stress weights or do anything like that cause i don't need bulging muscles.

[Walter Joyce]

I have struggled conceptually with push-ups and their effects on internal training and can't answer yet. I plan on checking with someone who knows more.

Two points: I didn't say avoid external stimulation, just weight training. Internal training by necessity involves external movement as well (think of when you are first learning the form).

I supplement my taiji work with ba gua whole body strength training methods and basic body training methods. I found that when I left them out of my routine something was missing.

My overarching point is that internal strength training is a very subtle and demanding method, and it is very easy to veer off the path unintentionally. Remember you are programming your body as to how to move in a very specialized manner. Crossing the signals will only stall, or completely foreclose, any real progress. Remember, you need to "invest in loss" in the beginning. Internal training is NOT for the impatient.

Regards,
Walter

[greendragon]

I think lifting should be in moderation because of the muscle shortening reducing speed and range of motion. I don't know if it's only doing Tai Chi for exercise or passing 50, but, although very healthy, i found myself physically weak. So now i am training with the push-ups, sit-ups, rolls, etc. hard work feels good.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Taijiquan underwent an evolution into the styles we see today. During this evolution life patterns changed dramitically. The body of a 17th century farmer was quite different from the body a 19th century urbane elite. The 17th century farmer wasn't interested in "self-cultivation," he needed to be able to defend his family. The 19th century elite looked at his world controlled by foreign powers and sought to strengthen his country's moral integrity. So what do you want out of your Taijiquan?

The further back you go in Taijiquan history the more strength training you see. Yang Chengfu himself was known to have heavy barbells for working out, yet his legacy is one of the most focussed on "forceless" engagement.

Quite a bit of the whole Taijiquan curriculumn is based on strength and power training. Why broadsword? Because weilding the weapon teaches a kind of coarse or abrupt energy for engagement, even with empty hand. Straight sword trains the opposite, a refined touch that extends beyond the fingertips. The spear/long pole is pure power training, teaching an energetic extension that can reach right past the opponent's structure.

Traditional Yang style often says "practice individual moves with Fajin." Fu Zhongwen certainly did this, and advocated its practice. I've heard this from many Yang style teachers, but how many actually train this method? It seems that in the search for Song that the balance of Li is lost (after all what is the point of Song but to provide the tactical advantage for the application of Li?).

One other thing I'll say about weight training is to consider what exactly a given exercise will do to you and for you? Body building exercises are probably all wrong for internal arts as the method is isolation for targeted work of specific muscles or muscle groups, how else will you get definition? Rather the idea in the Internals is to have whole body connection. So look to move weights in ways that complement you martial methodologies (what some might call "techniques").

[Walter Joyce]

Close reading will show that Kevin and I don't disagree.

"While weighted exercises are used in the more advances levels, this is only allowed once the practitioner has achieved the quality of song, and can MAINTAIN it even under pressure or physical stress. (Think push hands.)"

Hence the pole, the broadsword. In ba gua some even walk the circle with a weighted vest or with and extremely large broadsword. In chen taiji some practice silk reeling with weighted balls (like medicine balls). But this is after the ground path is established and can be maintained while moving, and one has the qualities of song and peng, and the skill of peng jin hard wired into the circuitry.

The balance of Li and song...nice point, the combination of using strength while relaxed.

Good training,
Walter

[kungfu cowboy]

Pretty soon you guys are gonna say that using muscles to digest food is bad!:D

Okay, if weight training is so bad for your tai chi (which it most definitely is not) sever your spinal cord at the base of your skull and work with that.

I do think it is unnecessary for tai chi though.

[Fu-Pow]

I think western style bodybuilding type training is bad for any martial art, internal or external. For some reason people want to make the assumption that all external MA's do is flex their muscles around so that weight lifting is fine. I disagree. According to Adam Hsu the goal of CMA's in general is to build a pyramid-like structure with a solid wide base and a narrow top. The Western style is totally opposite, they want an inverted pyramid, ie that much sought after "V" shape.

My theory is that regardless of what martial arts you do you should have a base level of fitness. That means good cardiovascular, muscle tone and low body fat. You should be able to go 10 rounds even if in actuality, like Chen Fake you only need to fight for 3 seconds. Speaking of Chen Fake, one of the most famous IMA of modern times. if you've ever seen pictures of that guy, he was in great physical shape. Very good muscle tone. My guess is that he did some phyical labor every day in addition to his internal routine (30-40x through the form), unlike us lazy modern day people.

Instead of weights I might suggest working against your own body weight. This puts a limit on the size of muscles as you are not going to be able to add more and more weight to isolated muscle groups like you would with free weights.

Finally, regardless of style, the goal should be tone and strength not bulk and definition. This is the physique that is require for martial prowess.

[kungfu cowboy]

Every aspect of our lives is resistance training.

[Nexus]

Spending your life training to resist is a life long spent learning how to swim instead of swimming.

[kungfu cowboy]

The third eye is approaching from behind.

[Kumkuat]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
I think western style bodybuilding type training is bad for any martial art, internal or external. For some reason people want to make the assumption that all external MA's do is flex their muscles around so that weight lifting is fine. I disagree. According to Adam Hsu the goal of CMA's in general is to build a pyramid-like structure with a solid wide base and a narrow top. The Western style is totally opposite, they want an inverted pyramid, ie that much sought after "V" shape.

My theory is that regardless of what martial arts you do you should have a base level of fitness. That means good cardiovascular, muscle tone and low body fat. You should be able to go 10 rounds even if in actuality, like Chen Fake you only need to fight for 3 seconds. Speaking of Chen Fake, one of the most famous IMA of modern times. if you've ever seen pictures of that guy, he was in great physical shape. Very good muscle tone. My guess is that he did some phyical labor every day in addition to his internal routine (30-40x through the form), unlike us lazy modern day people.


Finally, regardless of style, the goal should be tone and strength not bulk and definition. This is the physique that is require for martial prowess.


It is true that most gym ****s are shaped like lightbulbs. But powerlifters who have to squat and dealift heavy have great leg strength.

Chen Fake came from the chen villiage. Not only he practiced taiji every day, he probably did some farm labor as well. It's like the store of Moreihei Ueshiba, the founder of Aikido; he was only 5 feet tall but weight around 180 lbs because he used extra heavy farm equpiment for conditioning.

BTW, what do you mean by muscle tone?

[Zantesuken]

so was bruce lee BULKD or was he toned? cause he was one compact little person but he was ripped.

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

For my two cents, I would stay with the weights but light weight and more reps. You don't want bulk but flexibility. Keep doing the situps and pushups. Add isometic/isotonic exercises to your training. Peace.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

It seems to me that balance is the issue.. internal/external, we live in both worlds.. we are a single unified being. I often wonder why we spend so much time discecting and isolating the otherwise natural harmony of life. To emphasize one and neglect another is unbalanced. Too often, it seems that we fall prey to some idealized mantra or dogma.. when, the evidence is before us. "Chop wood, carry water".. keep it simple. Tai Chi is expressed through our bodies, it is the quality of both that ultimately raises the Art to its highest level. Who said this and who said that is not nearly as important as self-verification of those ideals. Test the differences for yourselves, make your own decisions, remember.. the great masters added to the art through self-discovery. Tai Chi itself is the product of self-discovery.

Personally, i train with only my own body weight.. if one can control self.. others are no match.

be well..

[Kumkuat]

okay you guys, let me make something clear. Weight training will not make you bulky. I wish it did, because I would be one big mofo. But I'm still skinny. People tell me I'm skinny. Chicks make fun of me for my lack of muscles etc., You have to work hard and eat like a horse to get this bulky. It also depends on your body type. If you're a skinny guy, then you'll still be a skinny guy after a year of weight lifting. If you're naturally big, then you'll be big. Also, Mark Colman and Mark Kerr are bulky guys. They'll beat all your as.ses in 3 seconds or less.

Another thing, weight training, when done properly does not make you inflexible. Also, they don't shorten muscles. Where do you guys get these ideas? How do you lengthen and shorten muscles anyway? Overstretching them?

Anyway, tai chi done properly does develop muculature on the middle area (dantien) and the legs.

[Fu-Pow]

okay you guys, let me make something clear. Weight training will not make you bulky. I wish it did, because I would be one big mofo. But I'm still skinny.


It won't necessarily make you bulky. But this depends on the type of training you do and your goals. You don't have to look "ripped" to be a good martial artist nor is a ripped martial artists necessarily better. But I think some people equate the flash with effectiveness. For example, Bruce Lee was really cut and he was quite good. But I think alot of the training (especially with weights) was for flash, ie so it would look good on camera. Its really a personal choice I guess, more aesthetic than practical.

However, I can't help but think that adding a bunch of muscle up top that you are going to become top heavy which is antithetical to CMA, especially and art like Taiji. Plus it may slow you down.

As for tightness I think it does tighten up your muscles. This is the very definition of "tone." It means your muscles stay in a semi contracted state even after you stop flexing. Its not a bad thing to have "tone" though either, as long as you don't over do it. As a martial artist you don't want fat and slack muscles flying all over the place when your trying to fight. This can affect your balance and movement just like too much muscle. My Taiji teacher is pretty skinny, especially up top, not a lot of muscle. But he's also in really good shape trimmed up and toned (i.e. no beer gut or man tits :D).

I think balance is the key here. You don't want to be limp like a noodle nor rigid like a stick. You want to be toned, flexible and well-conditioned, both inside and outside.

Just my two cents. And some things that I'm trying to incorporate into my own training.

[Ford Prefect]

Haha! This thread is full of misconceptions. Lifting weights will not "shorten" muscles especially if you continue your Tai Chi practice. There will be no loss of flexability or speed because of lifting weights. Tone doesn't mean that your muscles are semi contracted either. That it a theory that has never been proven. The only proven factors that go into tone are muscle size, muscle density, body fat, and skin health.

Internal power development may rely on mechanics and internal power, but which would you rather be hit with: A 5 lbs whip or a 30 lbs whip? Some of the techniques that one can employ besides the basic striking also use momentum of the body like the shoulder and hip hits. Added size would definately benefit in this regard.

The only detriment that I could see would be the fact that the fatigue from weight training will occasionally interfere with your martial arts practice.

[Walter Joyce]

Ford,
Umm, lets see, how to put this...you're wrong and I'm tired of explaining why. Yeah, that'll do. And you know what, go ahead and continue being wrong, it won't effect my training.

[woliveri]

I have never met any High Level Tai Chi / Qi Gong Master who did weight training. I think that says it all.

My opinion is it's counter productive to any significant level of Qi Gong achievement. As far as muscle tone using the body is enough.

My 2 cents.....

[looking_up]

Exactly! Taiji is not just about good body mechanics, the role of the mind (yi) leading energy (qi) cannot be ignored. If you don't believe in that aspect of Taiji, than you just haven''t felt it yet.
I don't think everyone gets there, especially if you do not practice
qigong religiously.

[dezhen2001]

I don't train Taijiquan yet, but do wing chun, soft and hard qigong and i hope taijiquan eventually... nowhere in my school do we do any training that's like modern weight training or powerlifting etc.

All the training we do comes through form/exercise practise, partner work (tui shou and chi sau respectively), stance training (mabu and zhan zhuang), and for Chen the silk reeling... Of course later also weapons to develop certain things (not just learning how to use them to fight).

Hard Qigong does use some things like bricks, wooden sticks etc. but those are more used to develop the external part of the body (balanced with developing the inside).

In my own experience i used to do boxing and muay thai so did weights and things there. Personally i have found that through hard qigong and wing chun training that i feel more relaxed and stronger than i did before...

it depends on what you want and what you are after i guess... I just look at the likes of My Sifu, Sigong and even Chen Xiao Wang etc. and it seems their skill has developed through trainng actual taijiquan, nothing outside. What better way to develo pyour taijiquan than to actaully DO taijiquan?

Also for wing chun and many other skills... foe example look at Yip Chun and the other seniors... none of them are hugely muscular or as far as i know do (or have done) any weight training - only their WCK training (including the pole etc.). No one can doubt how much of the skill they have developed...

just my thoughts,
david

[bob10]

Woliveri - you never met a high level taiji master who practiced with a heavy staff, a heavy sword, an iron ball?

According to reliable sources Yang Sau Cheung used light weights when practicing his three circle exercise routine. One of the Chen masters used to "shake an iron pole" 300 times a day.

looking up - yi leading qi are nice words, but these guys are all strong....

[Ford Prefect]

Walter,

You're a funny guy. I don't care one way or another if I effect your training. Your ideas about weight training are scientifically unfounded and seem to lean to the side of mysticism. If that's your thing, then so be it. I'd like to see some proof that I'm wrong though.

Paul -Boston

[RAF]

This is really a pretty tricky subject. I make the distinction between weighted training and weight training. Every major system of so-called internal arts has weighted training (taiji, bagua, xing yi, baji, even praying mantis [which I would not label strictly external).

Unlike some aspects of weight training, the weighted training of the labeled internal martial arts is designed to achieve a structural alignment, linkage and flexibility of muscles working together to produce full body movement and at higher levels mind and breath control become an important component of the training.

Another example I am thinking of is the full range of da qiang exercises. This can also involve co-ordinated breathing and also the infamous heng haa breathing.

Many but not all weight training schedules involves isolating muscles. One of the goals of neigong exercises and its variation on weighted training is to exhaust the major muscles in order to get minor muscles to come into play. One fear I have of isolated weight training is that major muscle development will come at the expense of minor muscle development. I may be wrong, but I think it is very hard to develop chan si jing with weight training.

However, I am an old weightlifter from those pre-scientific days, you know, the old York Barbell Company. I still have a copy of all the weight training routines of Bob Hoffman, Olympic weightlifter and founder of the company and may even have a couple of copies of the old Joe and Ben Weider magazines along with pictures of the Austrian Oak.

Anyone looked into the keggle training? That looks like it might complement martial arts training especially bagua.

[Braden]

Someone should archive this thread somewhere. Here, my impressions, for whatever they may be worth:

Consistently this topic is hijacked by misinterpreting the question: "Will western-style conditioning methods hurt my internal martial art progress?" somehow becomes read as "Should I replace some of the time I spend on internal martial arts training with western-style conditioning to get better at the former?" This has happened here and it's misleading. Just something to watch out for.

FWIW, I'm just an average joe, but it seems like people draw some odd conclusions about western-style conditioning. That bodyweight exercises are OK while weight-lifting are not is a confusing notion. I wonder if your muscles know where the resistance they are contracting against comes from? And what about non-specific exerices; does a brick-layer have no chance at skill in taiji? History suggests otherwise.

As in all things, the answer is in moderation and in self-observation. The former I don't think needs explaining. The latter, simply - pay attention to your body! This simple suggestion is at the core of both good internal arts and good western conditioning.

If you're doing western conditioning at all, you should be carefully paying attention to (and learning to pay attention to!) your body; at the very least to prevent over-training, to correct your movements, to balance your strength, and to find out what is working and not working for you. If you're also doing internal martial arts, you've got to try your best to see how what you do affects your practice - but this is also true if you're not doing western conditioning!. Just for instance, I've found that with western conditioning I can very easily get too tense (such that it impairs martial arts) with exercises of the trapezius (the triangular bits at either side of your neck which let you shrug) and lower back. Is this just me? I don't know.

Another caution, which Liokault pointed out, is worth repeating. Skill in the internal arts seems to be something apart from conditioning, at least in class - which is to say, that you can 'cheat' by using your size, weight, and strength where you should be using good body mechanics. If you're doing western conditioning, you have to watch for this, but again - this is something you should be paying attention to anyway, since you are likely to be heavier/stronger/etc than some training partners even if you sit on the couch all day!

[Ford Prefect]

Braden,

Great post. I can definately see that maybe some of us are answering two different questions on the thread. :) I find that "western style training" most definately tenses up my trapezius muscles. One of the biggest obstacles I encountered in practicing the internal arts is tightness in my shoulders and neck. The fan chang exercises usually loosen me up when I'm especially tight though.

[Walter Joyce]

Ford (Paul),
Re-read my posts, there is nothing mystical involved. I try to base my analysis in proper body mechanics, not mysticism. The body mechanics for neijia skills are very complex and subtle, and completely different from the mechanics used in western"weight training." And I re-state, that western weight training will inhibit, if not prohibit, the development of neijia skills and movement. And if anyone cares to note, I mentioned the use of weighted training in my posts and their proper place in neijia training.

Perhaps my use of the word lengthening inwardly and outwardly threw you off. The meaning is within the context of neigong exercises. I am aware of the scientific understanding of western "weight training" and of the muscle tone required to develop neijia skills. The term sung, sometimes spelled song, describing in chinese the prerequiste muscle tone for proper alignment and body mechanics, is inhibited if not prevented by western weight training.

If you are in Boston, I may have an opportunity for you to see the difference. I will have more details tomorrow or the next day, but either private message me or email me at wtjoyce45@hotmail.com.

P.S. Zantesuken: Bruce Lee was not an internal martial artist, ripped toned or otherwise. He was an amazing martial artist, but not an internal one, IMHO.

If you are only interested in martial ability, there are much easier ways to achieve it than through neijia skills. If one wants to pursue neijia, then one should find out what that means. I know for me, and the people I respect, weight training is antithetical.

[Walter Joyce]

Not quite sure the purpose of that quote, but if you are going to use quotation marks, you should provide the source of the quote. Otherwise the quotation marks are superfluos at best, or an illegitimate grasp for authority at worst.

[RAF]

No. The quote is wrong. Its the other way.

"If only external, when old all is lost!"

I am pretty sure that it is in the bagua zhang book. His point was the importance of developing the internal as one ages.

[Walter Joyce]

Thank you for citing the source, but it does appear you have your assbackwards. ;-> (JKing).
As for the source, his is a great source for citing other resources, as many of the books he authors are mere translations on his part and not part of his practice. Like they say, consider the source.

[Ford Prefect]

I went through his Ba Gua book last night looking for the quote, but they only one I could find spoke of needing balance in your training. To paraphrase: You must train both externally and internally to maintain proper balance.

This really wasn't speaking of style but more to the tune of the fact that you must balance your forms, fighting, and conditioning with chi kung and meditation.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Ever since I read one of his books about Advanced Taiji methods I lost interest in the man. When describing Zhe De-jin it was clear that he didn't understand the principle himself and that his attempt to decribe what folding force really was very external, and to be honest on a very unadvanced level.

His books seem to be full of information but his lineage is not a good Taiji lineage as far as Yang family Taiji is concerned, he seems to of learnt loads of Wushu forms and tonnes of white crane. I maybe mistaken about my views of Yang but personally, and from some colleagues who are a little more knowledgable about the man, I just don't rate the man. When some one mention Yang style Taiji, he's the last man I think of. Oh and I notice how he lista those numerous amount of different arts/styles/practices etc. in his books, well the phrase Jack of all trades-master of none alarmingly seems apparent in this case.

[RAF]

Guohuen:

Here is what I thought was the source of the paraphrased quote:

"The application of Jin brings us to a major diference between the Oriental martial arts and those of the West. In China, marital styles and martial artists are judged by their jin. How deeply is Jin understood and how well is it manifested? How strong and effective is it, and how is it coordinated with martial techniques? When a martial artis performs his art without Jin it is called Hua Quan Xiu Tui, which means "Flower fist and brocade leg."

This is to scoff at the martial artist without Jin, who is weak like a flower and soft like brocade. Like dancing, his art is beautiful but not useful. It is also said: "Lian Quan Bu Lian Gong , Dao Lao Yi Chang Kong," which means "Train Quan and not Gong, when you get old, all emptiness". This means that if a martial artist emphasizes only the beauty and smoothness of his forms and doesn't train his Gong, then when he gets old, he will have nothing. The "Gong" here means "Qigong", and refers to the cultivation of Qi and its coordinatio9n with Jin to develop the later to its maximum, and to make the techniques effective and alive. Therefore if a martial artist leanrs his art without training his Qigong and Jin Gong, once he gets old the techniques he has learned will be useless, because he will have lost his muscular strength."

P. 6, Baguazhang, Emei Baguazhang: Theory and Applications, Master Liang Shou-Yu and Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming, and Mr. Wu Wen-Ching.

[guohuen]

Very good. Thanks.

[12345]

Originally posted by Walter Joyce


I have to question why you would want to weight train to begin with. The strength developed my western weight training methods and the internal strength developed by taiji are antithetical. There are more than enough traditional training methods that lead to the proper qualities in your body without impeding your progress. Body weight exercises are more than adequate to strengthen stabilizer muscles, and also train the other qualities that are associated with classic taiji.
Good training,
Walter

Take your point about chasing two rabbits but supposing one has sufficient time to devote to both what is the problem?

People might just like weight training for the sake of it - I think most people that do tai chi do so not only as a means to an ends (though that is important) but because they enjoy it in itself.

Also why differentiate between body weight exercises and exercises using weights ? Are you saying that body weight exercises are easier - if so try telling a fat man to do pull ups. I agree that body weight exercises can make up an effective strength training routine but if you allow that there is no reason to disallow weights. What you have to remember is that many people nowadays have sedentary jobs - if people were cutting down trees for a living maybe weight training would be deemed superfluous.

[12345]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow


As for tightness I think it does tighten up your muscles. This is the very definition of "tone." It means your muscles stay in a semi contracted state even after you stop flexing. Its not a bad thing to have "tone" though either, as long as you don't over do it. .

I always thought tone was just another way of saying definition - which was a combination of muscle size and the amount of fat you have on top of it. I might be wrong but I never thought it had anything to do with your muscle staying semi contracted.

[12345]

Not a tai chi person but Morehei Ueshiba used to do quite a lot of conditioning - things like running across fields with weights tied to him from ropes and stuff like that - he also used to bang his head against a wall a certain number of times a day. Either that or the biography I read was making it up.

So far nobody has come up with a reason why doing weights will harm your tai chi other than it takes up time which might be devoted to tai chi. A lot of the supposed criticism of weights - shortening muscles etc - are based on old wives tales. If your image of a weight trainer is someone that competes in Mr Universe then you are misguided. Most athletes weight train now - even distance runners and certainly soccer, football, all field events, sprinters, rugby, cricketers etc etc - so what some people are saying is that not only is western athleticism not an advantage to tai chi (which I could buy) but that it is actually harmful to tai chi practice - which seems dubious indeed - especially as those saying so come out with so much stuff that is just bs.

[Walter Joyce]

Thank you for your great insight and thoughtful analysis.
I'll stick with the people I recognize as authorities, if its ok with you.
You know, the ones who actually possess high level taiji skill.
Last I checked, nary an old wife in the lot.

[RAF]

I can add a bit of my own experience regarding weighted v. weight training.

In our bagua system, we have specific ways of using light brick training and brass or stainless steel rings. This method emphasizes a very different set of muscles than you usually train with weights (i.e. dumbells and barbells. And as I stated earlier, I was fairly familiar with a number of weightlifting systems during the 70s and 80s). Walking the circle using the proper positioning with a properly weighted brick develops a real interesting grip strength that fits what is needed in our Yin Fu/Gong Bao Tian/Liu Yun Qiao system ( I realize I am walking on egg shells here, I am careful not to trample on someone else's methods of training. I make no claim that this is the ONE and ONLY WAY to TRAIN. The lineage line is only there for you to know exactly where I am coming from.). The rings (properly weighted) produce very interesting outcomes regarding arm/shoulder strength (the weighted training conforms specifically with the martial application and I am not sure you can attain this with traditional weight training). This also is a great aid for developing effective fajing expression in bagua.

The bottom-line is that if you really are convinced that weight training will help your martial arts, then go for it! No one on the board will convince you otherwise. I know I would probably feel the same, however, I have seen the results of one guy doing 5 or 6 basic spear exercises (we are talking about a 14 foot spear, properly tapered and weighted) and his punch and block is unique. It fits the "steel wrapped in cotton" character. He is a Westerner and this development has really shocked some of the Taiwanese and Chinese practitioners who have observed his performance and felt his punch. The level where defense and offense, i.e. my block and punch are the same is where he is at and only further convinces me that advanced forms and applications are relatively useless unless you have developed the proper conditioning associated with the system you are studying and also makes me question the usefullness of weightlifting or trainiing. Unfortunately, this is the results of 12 years (and its continues today) of almost daily consistent training. Most people give up on it in a month or so. I don't think he could have got these results from weight traijning.

However, I also don't want anyone to go away with the idea that these are some kind of big dark secret. Proper alignment and consistency of practice produced the results. Again, I have not seen this developed in weight training.

Let me poison (poison because inevitably the mention of his name will bring out some flamethrowers) the whole thing by stating that you might want to take a look at Mike Sigman's tapes. No, I have never watched them nor do I know him but one of my senior kungfu lineage holders (not my teacher) seems to think Mike is on to something and I trust his judgement 100%.

Why don't try the weight training and if it works for you, then hey, what can anyone say? Ultimately one has to find what works for them and these boards can only offer so much.

[12345]

Originally posted by Walter Joyce
Thank you for your great insight and thoughtful analysis.
I'll stick with the people I recognize as authorities, if its ok with you.
You know, the ones who actually possess high level taiji skill.
Last I checked, nary an old wife in the lot.


Ok then can I ask a couple of questions.

Who are these authorities that say weight training is bad for advancing in tai chi?
What is their reasoning?

My point is simply that some of the stuff people often come out with - things like shortening muscles, reducing speed, reducing flexibility etc are either untrue or not necessarily true - and this is demonstrated by the place weight training takes in most modern sports including ones that rely extensively on speed, balance and flexibility.

Will you try and answer the points raised? - my guess is not.

ps - again the argument is not are weights beneficial to tai chi but whether they are actually harmful.

[Walter Joyce]

The people whose names you would recognize are Chu Gin
soon and his son Vincent, Wang Hei Jun and Mike Sigman. There are others, B.K Frantzis comes to mind, and people I have worked with who you have never heard of.

Hei Jun was asked directly at the recent Boston workshop about weight training. Through his translator he said that the type of strength developed through weight training is rigid and limited. He said that the two types of training were completely different, and that weight training interferes with your development.

Mike, who would probably prefer to be left out of the debate, also said the same thing when asked point blank, as have Chi gin soon and Vincent.

Why is this so? I will try an answer that for you, but before I try, let me ask you a few questions.

What do you know about the nature of internal strength development and application? Do you train internally? With whom?

The paradigms of western sports training and internal training are completely different. The closest western fitness approach to internal strength training falls under the core tarining, whole body strength approach. While there are similarities between these methods, there are training methods within neijia that are not found anywhere else, even these approaches.

I'm not talking about mystical powers, but methods of intergrating and developing the bodies physical capabilities that have not been addressed by western science. The closest you'll find to an effort to translate these traditional methods into the western paradigm is Mike Sigman's work, and the discussion board out of Stanford University.

As a practical approach, try to decipher the meaning of the word sung, a chinese word that describes the state necessary for the devlopment of neijia strength. Any training method that is based on internal strength will require the maintenance of this state in your training and applications. The musculature quality attained is very different from that attained by western weight training. The qualities that separate the two are the very qualities needed for fa jin, as exhibited by chen taiji most notably.

And to clarify, I at no point said that WEIGHTED methods were never used, but the way the weight is applied to and distributed by the body is completely different from the most common strength training methods somewhat loosely referred to as weight lifting or weight training.

Lastly, for what its worth. I spent 10 - 15 years weight training to supplement my earlier external training. When I started making the slow switch to neijia, I thought that the two could co-exist. For me, it became obvious that the methods were antithetical. The isolated localized muscle development that weight training develops is in no way related to internal strength, and the neural pathways that are trained inhibit te type of whole body movement required by neijia.

I'm not calling Scarletmantis' assertions into question, because powerlifting, when done right, is somewhat linked, though not completely. Many of the movements call a whole chain of muscles into play when executing the movement. I will say that people who succesfully combine these two methods are perhaps an exception to the rule, at best.

There is also no "one" neijia method, so there is some room for latitude. Even in bagua, my art of choice, the differences in strength theory varies from style to style, and within styles depending on lineage. What I am saying is that there are methods that almost rely exclusively on internal strength and others that allow a greater mix of external and internal strength. (Think of the difference between the Yin Fu lineage and the Cheng Ting Hua lineage.)

One's muscles will be developed in traditonal neijia training, but they will be a different set of muscles than those commonly focused on western sports training. And the way those muscle fibers are developed will also be different.

You caught me on a day where I felt like explaining, because expaling clarifies my thoughts, which helps my training. My thought evolve as well, but I would be surprised (and I don't get surprised easily) if later recanted any of this.

FWIW,
Walter

[Kumkuat]

Yes, but I have never heard any of them (as of yet) say that weight training shortens muscles, causes inflexiblity, reduce speed, etc.,

Of course, me being a young guy who's in denial don't like it when people like them say that what I love to do will hinder my progress in something else I love to do :) But I accept it anyway, but I still do weight training, and I still do neijia. Of course, I could lift weights using neijia principles, but that would be kinda hard... But I suck at both and if there is a time where I have to choose, I'll probably decide long and hard to see which one I want to give up.

Walter probably covered this but weight training doesn't improve your neijia because you're just going back to your old habits. Neijia requires a different type of movement compared to external movment. We're trying to repattern the way we move in nejia. But if you do weight training, you're just reinforcing "bad" habits (bad as in bad for neijia). Of course, we can try to use neijia in everyday life like using peng to turn on the lights, using an to turn it off, using silk reeling energy to open a jar, using ji to open doors, etc., Of course, you have to be sung, use who body movement, use yi to lead qi, etc., to do all these.

[Spirit Writer]

My thoughts against a steady weight lifting regement follow this logic, and its just my two cents:

Internal arts are supposed to be about avoiding direct conflict with incoming power, ie, do not fight the weight or power of the other.

I'm sure no one sets out to do this, and thinks lifting is making them strong and what not. But I believe one is training the muscle memory, the mind, to fight back with muscular force when feeling the weight or force, that is what weight lifting is.

All fine and dandy now, when you are a strong young man and c0ck strong and determined and don't want to hear it any other way then your own bulking body way.

But how about when you're 60? Isn't this why the internal road? Fight force with force now when you have force, what happens when the other is a 6'8 310lbs lbs for the NY Giants? What good is your muscle then? How about when your 60?

Power, most certainly. Ability, of corse.

But relying on mass is betting on the wrong guy.

Power = mass x velocity ^2

[Sho Pi]

The question should really be “is talking/chatting on message boards on the internet good for Tai Chi?” This argument is has been fun to watch for a while. It seems like everyone has their own take on this topic so I will add mine. Just like everyone else, my thoughts come from the teachings of “high level teachers” but also from hard practice and experimentation. I will try to address several of the arguments put forth but most of the arguments really require a thesis by themselves to fully answer.

Isn’t the concept of Yin Yang about balance? That would entail internal as well as external, western as well as eastern. To deny a body of knowledge that has worked for some, is idiotic and not in the historic realm of the Taoists (which heavily influenced the creation of the internal arts). They experimented, took what worked through out what didn’t. Some of the greatest inventions and breakthroughs have happened when someone with a different perspective added a few thoughts. If the “classics” were read as much as they are quoted, it would become apparent that if you look hard enough and long enough contradictions exist. These documents where written hundreds, if not thousands of years ago. This makes it hard to know what certain authors really meant in their writings.

Another thing that we should remember is much of the body of knowledge about the internal arts has been lost because of the secrecy that surrounded Chinese martial arts. It is a great possibility that we do not know all the training methods that were used. To think otherwise is to blind ourselves to what it means to be a true practitioner. Balance, hard practice and learning from experience and others.

We each must travel our own road to success. Be that keeping to the traditional teachings that have survived about internal arts (IMO a limited view), only using western methods (IMO a limited view) or experimenting with both (IMO a balanced Taoist approach). If the internal arts are to be advanced, not remain stagnant, new things must be tried.

You say that you have never met a high level practitioner who never did weight training; I say the opposite, what have we accomplished? Either we are both liars, one of us is lying, or one of us or both of us really have not met high level practitioners, it is a useless argument. These arguments probably happened every time a new Chen form was created, when Yang Cheng fu changed the form, when Wu Yu-Xiang created his form, etc. Change is difficult for people to accept.

On a side note: some individuals have attacked Yang Jwing Ming because of his writings seem to show that he doesn’t understand internal arts. While I am a huge supporter of the first amendment, this statement bothers me. For those of you who haven’t written a published article, to convey abstract ideals and ideas to paper so that all learning styles will be able to understand. As a person who has published, it is interesting to watch discussions happen about your own work because it is hard to believe that what you wrote was so easily and drastically misinterpreted. To use a personal example many people think that because Jiang Jian-ye has sooo many tapes that he can not be good at any of them. I was one of them at one time. I then had first hand account of working with him and it really embarrassed me that I had those thoughts.

I say get thee to the kwoon and practice your way, typing on message boards does not help except for the occasional breath that is taken to calm down.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings (again)..

Balance, whether asserted by Taoists or anyone else is the essential element.. it is the way of nature.. By way of analogy, we are like automobiles with "Chi" being a highly refined fuel, the most economical and efficient use of this "fuel" is through a well maintained and well designed vehicle.. Where we find differences is in the "intended" use of the vehicle.. a race car, an off-road trekker, a luxury touring car, an economical and ecological transport, etc.... my experience indicates that internal and external exist in harmony, directed by our intentions, seperated only whenever WE choose to see them AS seperate.. Where we find conflict, is in the "intentions" of others.. when others don't conform to our own concepts of "right/wrong". Better that we respect the ways of others as their own vision of Tao and attend to our own. To assume that we are "Right" and another is "wrong" is arrogant, particularly concerning the current topic... The story is still being written, we are part of the story, part of the evolution of the Art.. we can't stagnate Tai Chi with assumptions like "this is the ONLY way" or some such nonsense..

Additionally, "chatting on message boards" has its own value, its own merit.. it is an opportunity to explore the theories and philosophies that support our Art. Tai Chi is so much more than a physical discipline, its a way of living/being.. Personally, i would not be so quick to discount creative and educational dialogue. We are so fortunate to have this technology at our disposal, the ability to exchange concepts and experiences with people from all over the world, the chance to expand our own awareness through sharing our individual experiences on a common interest.

Just another perspective from the Far-side.. Be well..

[looking_up]

Spirit Water made the best point, sort of:

Do you want to peak and fade? Or continue developing?

If you don't know what I'm talking about, well, too bad I guess.

[bob10]

Oh, I get it - is that why an old taiji guy like, say, William Chen, wold mop the floor with a young muscle bound meat head like, say Tank Abbot?

[looking_up]

A confusing answer by someone who studies taijiquan and
systema. I'll confess ignorance and bow out of this discussion.

Cheers, mate. :)

LU

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"You don't want to go head-to-head. It is not about who is stronger."

Vladimir Vasiliev, founder of Systema

[kungfu cowboy]

Oh, I get it - is that why an old taiji guy like, say, William Chen, wold mop the floor with a young muscle bound meat head like, say Tank Abbot?


I seriously doubt that would happen.

[bob10]

And yet Vladimir is a very strong individual.. so was my old taiji teacher come to that.

[n0rmann]

a note about weight training:

I recently attended a seminar with Master Liu Chengde in Canada.

He lifts weights daily. He also does some calistenics.

He said to be really healthy, you have to have both external and internal strength. Without one, the other will suffer.

[ratman201]

I'd just like to add that before Chen Wangting created the style of boxing know as taichi he was a soldier and general in the Ming army for most of his life. A soldier from this period or any for that matter exerted more physical effort just living than most of us could going to the gym, in addition to thier martial arts training. Just follow the therories and princible, remember to stretch, and most of all relax. Besides there are so many other thisng that a bit of lift could help with. Like picking **** up and moving it.