Starting over

[red5angel]

What do you do when you come across something that is better then what you have? If it is just little pieces do you add them to your own skills? what about if you come across something that is so radically different at its core? Would you start over from the beginning?
The reason I ask is also the reason why I am so excited about learning wing chun under Carl Dechiara. For me I got lucky, I had only been doing wingchun for about a year and a half before meeting him and deciding to start over from scratch. now I am discovering the depth of the wingchun world. Recently we found out that a student from our class left to teach at another school. He had been at this school before but wasnt learning anything of value, then my local instructors Michael and Howard met him, touched his hand sand he realized he had nothing and needed to start over. When Carl came along he had to start over again for the third time. He got fed up however and let his ego get in the way. He went from being the 'top' guy at his school to be on the bottom twice in a matter of one year. He couldnt handle it and instead of waiting it out and learning the strong good stuff, he went off and somehow got certified to teach his current lineage in 2 months!
My instructors themselves have had to give up 9 years of knowledge to go back and start over. Wipe the slate clean or empty their cup in order to refill it.
If somethin better came along would you start over? Once? Twice?

[kungfu cowboy]

Is this advertising tone on purpose?:p

Well, if it was a change for the better, I'd have to try it out.

[red5angel]

nope Kf cowboy, not meant to sound like an advertisement. Over the last day some my change of wingchun has become somewhat of a 'scandal' here so I thought this was a relevant topic.

Would you do some travelling to get something you thought was better?

[kungfu cowboy]

Sure. It would all depend on how far, and how badly I wanted it. also, if it was practical in reality.

I was just kidding about the ad thing.

[red5angel]

:) no problem. How about right now KFC? If you met someone across the country who said you could come and train with them as much as you wanted, and you were impressed by what it was they could teach you, would you?
Or how about doing some travelling and some searching to find something better?

[kungfu cowboy]

Right now, I am getting ready for bed.:p But, I guess I would, if I could. And had no other pressing obligations. Sometimes life gets in the way, thanks to the strange way the world works. Are you talking about an ideal situation, or something you would do 'no matter what'?

[red5angel]

Well, part o fit is like you said, how much you really want it. how far would you go basically to make room to get some good training? We all have priorities of course and sometimes those get in the way. For me, my wife is the only thing that is more important then my training.

[reneritchie]

Hiya Red,

If I found something demonstrably better for what I wanted to achieve, I would have no problem emptying my cup and starting over.

To clarify a little - I don't mean simply encountering somebody better than myself. That's happened innumerable times. I've met many experts, each unique, each very talented. That's apples (expert) vs. oranges (beginner), though. Many times the expert will "show" you how their way is better, but unless they're working with someone with as many hours in as many days, and similar natural apptitudes, its not a fair comparison. So, I look beyond what they can do, and to what they can do for their students, and more importantly *me*.

There are layers to this as well, however. What if you meet the ultimate teacher and s/he's an @$$ to the degree that you couldn't spend 5 min with him/her, let alone study with him/her? And what if you met 2 incredible teachers, one who could get you to 80% in 5 years but no more, and the other who could get you to 20% in 5 years but 99% in 20 years? Are you in it for now (what happens when you plateau after year 6) or for the future (what happens if you get killed because you don't have the skill in 10?)

Another perspective is that sometimes things work in cycles. Maybe you find Sifu B's method is better than Sifu A's, then later find Sifu C's method is better than Sifu B's, only later to go back and find Sifu A's method is better than Sifu C's. Which, then, do you stick with?

People have different reasons for studying. Some just want a social activity (then any method will do). Some want health (maybe a version that focuses on Hei Gung would be better). Some want fighting--immediately. Some like the physical brain work (structure, alignment, etc.). Like different kinds of cars (sports, SUV, minivan, Jeep, luxury sedan), different methods suit different tastes and requirements. Which is "better"?

RR

[red5angel]

You make some excellent points Renee! It is of course also a matter of the many variables involved, and that is basically what I am getting at, a discussion of what people would be willing to overcome to learn.
For instance travelling for me isnt a problem, I am not Daddy Warbucks but I put away money until I have enough and then I go. I am not sure about how I would deal with someone who was a grade A @$$ however. thats hard to say. I guess if I was learning what I wanted to then maybe.
And of course there are always the reasons. I am passionate about the art and learning it that is why I do what I have to do to get it.

[gnugear]

I dumped 6-7 years of previous training to start over. It was a karate style, but I found Wing Chun to be superior to what I was doing, so I had zero problems starting over.

It's unfortunate that some people aren't willing to empty their cup. I don't understand why some people would dedicate that much time and effort into something that is not as effective as what they could be learning ...

... I guess you could say that I'm a little biased toward WC;)

[Lindley57]

This is a very interesting subject posted. The truth of this topic is that one must come to the grips of reality - a lie is a lie and the truth is the truth. We must understand that original martial arts were not learned as a hobby, but as a way of life and culture. So in those days, it was realistic to invest hours of time learning and testing theories because your life could depend on it. Today, we could probably say with some sureness that 99% of the people in this forum do not have that situation, that they can not devote truly their entire life to being a great fighter/teacher/martial artist. In saying this, most of us are restricted by the realities of life - job, school, location.
If you find a teacher and school that you really like and feel comfortable with, that is within reasonable travel, and you have devoted time and effort in then why would you feel you need to seek something better out there for you? Why did you let it get so far? One should consider that there is always the potential of something better or different being out there. Why not make the contribution to your school in finding out what that is and bringing that back? Why is it assumed that a Sifu is not a normal human being who can grow too? More Students should feel free to contribute to their schools growth. You are free to attend seminars, buy videos and books, and hang out with members of other lineages and styles. But, instead of wanting to jump from camp to camp, one should focus on trying to understand the methods of what you perceive as being "better" about these other entities and either bring that back to your school or instill it in yourself as you learn and train in your school. Of course this is all dependent on your view of your role in your Kung Fu family.
The conclusion is be realistic and understand that we can only be a part of our experiences. Hindsight is 20/20 vision. Be the best you can be.

[azwingchun]

I have done this many times, I mean through the years I have trained in several styles. Each time I jumped shipped to another art or teacher it was for the reason that I thought this teacher had more to offer or the new style was a better stlye. For me at the time anyway. I finally found the perfect art for me around 14 years ago, it was Wing Chun. But since then I have trained in other Kung Fu styles, not for the reason of jumping ship though, but to get a feel of what other styles had to offer and to see the differences in Kung Fu styles, since Wing Chun was the first Chinese martial art I had ever studies.

As far as emptying my cup when I ran across what I percieved was a better teacher than my last, well that is a differnt story. I have trained with a few differnt people who taught Wing Chun, but not to (again)jump ship but to see thier way of doing things and to take note of various styles of Wing Chun. Does this make sense? I think that if this is what someone chooses to do then they will be emptying thier cup every couple of months. I believe that throughout your life you will keep running into someone you believe has greater skill then the next. My question is (if I am not misunderstanding this post) when do you finally say, I enjoy what I do, there will always be a better teacher and I need to just stay where I am at and learn everything I can and get the most out of it. This providing that you have faith in the Sifu who is guiding you through your training. Just my opinion.;)

[aelward]

Wow, great points Rene. As always, your objective and insightful points impress me.

For my part, I had a rudimentary knowledge of Wing Chun (1 year of mixed techniques but no foundation) and several years of a bunch of other martial arts. My Sifu made me start from scratch, for which I was very resentful at first. However, in hindsight, I am very happy that I did, because it was there that certain fundamentals were instilled.

Those fundamentals that he taught me became the glasses through which I view and evaluate Wing Chun. And because of this subjective approach, I don't think that I would change wholesale; instead, if I see something that I like from another approach, I will try to absorb it, or at least reevaluate and find ways to build upon my current knowledge and training.

Now that I am teaching, I make all people start from the beginning, regardless of how much Wing Chun they have learned (though if they are so good that I have nothing to offer, I usually invite them to irregular cross-family get-togethers so that we can mutually learn from each other). The fact is that if someone wants to make a long-term committment to learning a particular approach from a particular school, there has to be at least a minimal amount of uniformity, so that people approach training from the same angle. For example, I would say that in chi sao, my group is good at "the middle game," that is, after poon sao, when the hands are already randomized. I have had several visitors to our class that are very good openings, but tighten up or even freeze after their opening salvo fails (or sometimes even hits). For this person to improve at their middle game, they should go through our chi sao training progressions, starting from the forms. Obviously, people who already know the form tend to learn a little more quickly, unless they are really stubborn about sticking to their ways.

[mun hung]

red5angel - if you found a better instructor than Carl Dechiara would you jump ship after being with him for such awhile and thinking he was the best?

Would finding a better instructor hurt you or benefit you?

I remember a big muscular fellow who had 6 years of experience with another school who came by to visit and left with tears and a hurt ego. He never came back, but currently teaches somewhere else.

Between loyalty and better kung fu, he chose loyalty - and you certainly can't blame him for that.

[red5angel]

Loyalty is extremely important and I dont think I would quit on Carl but I may pay a visit to this person to check out what he has. The point is that I really believe I have found the top of the pile, and that was because I went out and looked for it. At first I looked locally, then I travelled the country, but came home to find it was right in my backyard!!
Basically, you keep looking until you find what it is you are looking for, hopefully it is as good as it gets!
what it comes down to is you dont fully commit yourself until you have found what you believe is what you were looking for. Its like looking for a car, do you settle for a car that is similar to what you want or do you get as close to it as you can? Do you buy the first car that resembles what your goal is or do you keep shopping until you find exactly what you want?

[aelward]

I was wondering if anyone here who has studied Wing Chun for more than 5 years has actually opted to start over from another approach (meaning, abandoning what they learned before altogether, instead of practicing separately or absorbing into what they already know)?

While I have met some incredible practitioners who I have held in awe, I cannot say that any of them having impressed me SO much (yes, they impressed me, but...), that I would completely give up what I have learned.

I think that after a certain time, how you evaluate Wing Chun is already defined enough that it would be hard to change wholesale.

[red5angel]

Aelward, while I didnt have to do that, Michael who post on here periodically dropped everything from his prior 9 years to start all over again! We talked about some and he says that although it is frustrating, the frustration lies in having done not done it the best he could have for nine years, not having to start over.

[reneritchie]

I have no idea how common it is, but there are many examples, some quite well known, even of people 10, 20, or more years in.

Here's a question, though. Do you have to drop *everything* and start again, or can a *great* sifu just correct you and move your further along? Does a BA in Math have to go back to elementary arithmatic if he finds a great professor to do his masters under? Does a national powerlifting champ have to go back to 2.5lbs dumbells if he finds a coach to take him to the olympics? Does the world's best Chrysler mechanic have to go back to autoshop 101 if he gets transfered to the Mercedes garage?

And if they do, does it take less time (they already know some), the same time (nothing else matters), or more time (lots of bad habbits to overcome) to surpass their previous level?

And I wonder, did Leung Jan start over under Wong Wah-Bo after Leung Yee-Tai (or vice versa, depending on which story)?

Just some scattered thoughts,

RR

Rgds,

RR

[gnugear]

Leung Sheung dropped everything to study with Yip Man. Didn't he have about 10 years of previous experience?

I dumped my previous training but I retained a lot of fundementals that helped when I started over with Wing Chun. I understood what root was etc. ... I just had to adapt it to WC principles.

[anerlich]

Yawn.

I trained with David Crook and/or one of his students for three years. He was and still is, since 1969, an excellent teacher, but family issues required me to move cities. David was very open minded and encouraged students to explore other styles respectfully, and took me to quite a few other schools to examine what they did.

I started over at the bottom at a Neijia school and trained there for five years. I worked up pretty close to instructor level, but had to give it away due to growing disenchantment with the instructor's character and morality, though his skills were stellar.

Thirteen years ago I started over with my current instructor. I have seen more schools and instructors than red5angel ever will. He had the same ability, experience and ability to teach that David Crook had.

About three years ago, my own instructor decided his 24 years of training and what he had to teach was still not perfect. He began training in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu under BB John Will, and made it part of the curriculum. After 10-odd years I found a whole new realm of combat and training which was totally out of my comfort zone. I had to start again from square one.

In 2000 I went to a seminar with Scott Sonnon of ROSS, who showed me whole new paradigms for considering physical combat, training and self-teaching in the larger sense and new ways of viewing what I was already doing.

KF isn't secret knowledge to be transmitted from "Sifu" to student. The best instructors IMHO are those that expand and excite you mind with possibilities you had not before envisaged. The way is in training. The instructor shows the way, you have to travel it. The map is not the territory.

[anerlich]

my change of wingchun has become somewhat of a 'scandal' here

Your change of Wing Chun is not scandalous. As you have seen, you're hardly Robinson Crusoe, though you seem to think you are somehow "special".

Your prolific and incessant output of judgemental and uninformed opinion, and your assuming the role of WC prophet, offering to take your people to the promised land in Minnesota, after only months of instruction from someone you regard as a good teacher, does seem to make people sigh and shake their heads, however.

[azwingchun]

I completely agree with you. Even though after 16 years or so of martial arts training I don't feel I completely dropped everything I ever learned. Sure I may not remember the forms and every actual motion taught but I think I merely adapted it to Wing Chun. I mean there are only so many ways to punch, kick and block. It just needed to be adapted to Wing Chun, does this make sense?;)

[anerlich]

I never dropped anything. I still practice forms I learned 20 years ago.

If your instructor demands you throw everything you have learned ot follow his approach, you are joining a cult, not a school. Being able to analyse something from multiple points of view is always an advantage. It should be OR not XOR (boolean logic, not English).

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by red5angel
If somethin better came along would you start over? Once? Twice?
The loser's mentality: "I'm starting over."
The winner's mentality: "I'm expanding my knowledge."

[Grendel]

Originally posted by red5angel
What do you do when you come across something that is better then what you have? If it is just little pieces do you add them to your own skills? what about if you come across something that is so radically different at its core? Would you start over from the beginning?

If somethin better came along would you start over? Once? Twice?
Hi R5A,

Nice can of worms you've opened. :) One day ask yourself if you are not being a bit of a loose cannon. :)

To answer your question, even if someone could demonstrate that some different teacher was more knowledgeable than mine, at this point, because of the relationship that I have with my sifu, I would never leave his school for another. Hypothetically, there might be someone better, but my teacher has lessons yet to impart to me and I know he will not hold back any knowledge from me. This knowledge is reinforced in me by seeing my many siheng and sife to whose level of Wing Chun I aspire.

One could ask you the same the question? Shouldn't you be willing to travel to study with someone better? Why are you stuck in Minneapolis? Carl may be a good instructor--maybe the best in Minnesota, but do you think he's unsurpassed in your lineage?

If you came to S.F./San Jose Bay Area, you could have your choice of excellent Wing Chun instruction in your own lineage and you wouldn't even have to learn Canadian, eh. :)

Or, is it unfair to pose this question back to you?

Any thoughts?

Regards,