A thought on punching....

[Merryprankster]

I've been here a pretty long time, made some good and bad contributions to the board and tried mostly to laugh at myself if I get a little too rambunctious.

Anyhoo, I got to thinking the other day about punching and why boxers sometimes break their hands.

A lot of people here have expressed an opinion that the wrapping of the hands and the use of gloves is what causes the breaks. There is also the issue of target choice--I'm big on that one myself--you hit somebody in the skull with your bare fist, and you just might break it. Certainly a better chance than if you hit them in the gut.

However, the wrapping and the gloves thing is was usually catches my attention, and the reason why is simple, and, in all honesty, slightly whiney

There is another reason why boxers might break their hands, and it has nothing to do with conditioning or equipment, yet nobody here ever seems to have considered it. It might just be that good boxers hit much harder, on average, and there is only so much punishment the small bones in your hands can take. A guy like Tyson or Lewis generates a tremendous amount of force when punching, so it's no surprise that hand breaks might happen.

I'm not necessarily of the opinion that this is true, because I truly don't know, but its interesting that I don't ever see this possibility expressed.

[shinbushi]

The evolution of sports martial arts (http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/evolution.html)

Boxing History
Let's go back a hundred years. Way back then, bare-knuckled boxing was the norm. This is when you see a guy, standing there wearing a handlebar moustache that you could hang coffee cups off of, with his hands extended in front of him, elbows down.

Now while both the stance and mustache look silly by today's standard, let me point out that this was called "London rules fighting." That's a joke because the stuff was so "no rules" that it made the UFC look like a Teletubbies show. There was no "gentleman's agreement," grappling, gouging, fishhooking, headbutting, purring (grinding a shod foot down the other guy's shin, trying to break his foot to boot) were the norm. In fact, that "goofy stance" excelled at keeping people from closing, grappling and doing all those nasty-nasties to your precious body.

Sound ugly? That's just the beginning. Here's where it gets butt ugly. There were no round limits or decisions. Victory was determined by either knockout or the other guy being so punch drunk he couldn't continue. No points, no decision… incapacitation. In other words, you won by beating the other dude senseless. And sometimes the suckers didn't fold as quickly and easily as you might hope. This is why John Sullivan's longest bout went for 72 rounds. The longest fight on record went 114. That, by the way, means all day! It was called because of sunset and declared a draw. See why I say London rules makes UFC look warm and fuzzy? People often did die.

The reason for changes in how boxers hit is very simple. Gloves. When gloves were introduced, boxing went down a totally different evolutionary line. The original purpose of gloves was to protect the participants. (This is really ironic because, while they limited gouging, hooking and other barehanded nasties, in the correct range, the extra weight of the gloves allow you to actually hit *harder* -- provided you hit in a very specific way.) Along with this equipment many new rules and bans were also introduced to further increase the safety of the fighters.

But the real sweetheart was the ban on clinching and grappling. It was no longer necessary to keep the guy away because the ref would do it for you. This is one of the two major reasons the boxing guard came "in" to its modern position. There was no more need for arms to stick way out yonder to keep the other dude back.

The other big reason, guards came in was that position worked better with the new way of hitting.

A very specific way of hitting evolved from wearing gloves. When you are swinging your arms around with that extra weight perched on your mitts, you discover something real quick. It is the same thing you learn when you pick up a real sword, instead of one of those tinfoil wu shu thingies or a light dowel. And that is, even though you have a shorter time to fight, those dammed gloves get heavy.

With the extra weight of gloves on the end of your arms, it was easier to hit from a circular motion of your hips. You literally sling your weighted fist out from your body. Your hips and torso lead the motion with a twist. Once your arm is moving from body motion, you then rocket out your fist. This is where the idea of "the correct way to punch is from the hips" came from.

If you want to keep from exhausting yourself, you use your entire body, not just your arms. This applies to both gloves and weapons. Putting it into super simple terms: Move your ass!!!! You hit with your entire bodyweight not just arm strength. That is correct boxing punching.

The thing is, that is a circular action.

That means it needs to be a close-range, circular hit. While there is a way to generate straight force from a circular motion, it requires some very specific body positioning, which a boxer will do. However, you have to know about it, because if you try to ape that kind of punching without understanding the body positioning, you end up actually losing power.

Along with the gloves came all sorts of other things to civilize the game, like limited rounds and point decisions. That meant you could win a bout by hitting the guy more times in a limited amount of time, not necessarily beating him unconscious like the old days. This often made speed more important than power. This is doubly true with extremely light gloves, in fact, the lighter the gloves the faster the punches.

Broken Hands

If you look at the way those old-timers hit, it was designed to protect their hands. And yes, while hands did break, they were not as common as you might think. Whereas injury to your opponent was *real* common. So here are these guys beating the hell out of each other for 30 to 40 rounds with minimal damage to their unprotected hands. That should tell you something about how they punched.

Conversely, think about this for a second. How many times have you heard of a modern boxer hitting someone outside the ring and breaking his hand? How about a martial artist?

If you look at it superficially, it is easy to dismiss these injuries as "he just hit wrong." But something doesn't gel with that answer. So if instead of accepting that answer at face value, you keep on looking into the problem, a far more accurate answer presents itself. How the guy was trained to hit has *changed!* People are hitting differently!

Face it, how people hit has to have changed. I seriously doubt that a professional boxer forgot years of training on how to hit because he was both a little drunk and ****ed off when he popped the dude. In the same vein, I also seriously doubt that a black belt -- even from a belt factory -- just spaces out how to hit. Injuries must arise from a different source.*not* that he did it wrong. (Don't get me started about instructors who blame their ****ty techniques not working on the student doing it wrong…grrrrr!).

This brings us back to changes in training.

The cost of modern sports equipment was that you have to hit in a very specific way and be wearing special equipment. Try to hit someone like that without these two conditions and viola! a broken hand. And soooooo many people have found this out over the years when they threw a boxing or karate punch at someone's head without gloves.

People have blindly accepted the changes in boxing as the way it has always been when it comes to hitting, or they contend that the new way of hitting is "superior." This ignorance of changes especially applies to people from outside boxing, a.k.a. martial artists. Many of whom study styles that have long since adopted these changes -- usually in the pursuit of safety in tournaments. Thing is while everybody is so busy going on about lineage and tradition, they sort of forget to mention these little insignificant issues.

That's if you consider robbing you of your punching power insignificant.

[shaolinboxer]

That is very true, MP. Also, consider that the classic "boxer's fracture" occurs at the pinky/ring finger knuckle set...the smallest bones receiving full power. The sheer number of punches thrown wears down the fibers of the bone. Plus, if you've got a fight coming up, you often have to go in with injured or broken hands. It's your duty to the money men. George Foreman fought with broken hands quite a bit. lastly, boxers bodies are hard as iron, making impact damage more likely on the attacker.

[Fred Sanford]

maybe it's the fact that is you never practice hitting things without wraps and gloves on you aren't prepared for it.

There are plenty of MA schools that don't practice hand conditioning so they are probably in the same boat as well.

[Stone Monkey]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone train a flat-punch? Probably more likely to break a wrist than a hand, but who knows...

[Shaolindynasty]

If they're hands are breaking because they hit with to much force, shouldn't they hit with less force? From a MA view winning at the cost of destorying your body defeats the purpose.

[old jong]

Boxers break their hands and martial artists from many styles break bricks!...;)Maybe the tremendous amount of force of boxers is not properly focussed or their fist is not squeezed tight enough? there could be many reasons!...I think boxers could learn a lot from traditionnal martial arts (Without fear of loosing their identity)and benefit from many century's of knowledge and practice. The simple basic Karate punch was a weapon design to kill before the style became a "sport" and scoring points with flicking backfist became the norm!...But, I'm disgressing!
I think anybody can hit hard enough to break his hand and good technique,control and focus can prevent most accidents.
I heard that there is a museum in Okinawa full of demolished war helmets,shields and armors!...These things were done by simple peasants using their bare hands on Japanese soldiers!...You can even see the nuckles ingraved in these objects.There are ways to strike very hard even on hard surfaces but these things are not in the "occidental" martial arts curriculum yet.

[Merryprankster]

Fred Sanford,

And maybe you aren't being taught to hit hard. Both situations are equally possible.

Shinbushi, I've seen that one before. I agree that the guard position is clearly a result of gloves. I would also add that footwork and slipping and parrying as defense are largely the result of gloves. There's nothing wrong with those as defense, of course, but you're quite limited in your grabbing with gloves on. I don't know if gloves changed the WAY we punch or the TARGETS. I've seen both arguments, and I don't necessarily think that it's one or the either--more likely, it is a mixture of both.

Shaolindynasty--I agree. But it's easier to pick a new target (or a new weapon, like a palm or elbow) rather than take something off the punch.

Old Jong--A museum with knuckle imprints? Interesting. There's no reason those couldn't have been caused by a historical equivalent of brass knuckles though. I bet something like that existed. Still cool :)

[Fred Sanford]

And maybe you aren't being taught to hit hard. Both situations are equally possible.

but then again maybe we are taught to hit hard and do it without being dependant on wraps and gloves.

[Merryprankster]

And maybe not. Maybe the fact that boxers use handwraps and gloves lets them learn to hit things with the full potential of the human body, whereas you are instinctively pulling your punches without realizing it.

See my point? You don't know, I don't know. I have expressed, quite clearly that I have no idea what is true and what isn't in this instance. There's no particular argument here. My only real comment was that I've never seen the possibility discussed. Until we know for certain, it's a possibility, and a perfectly valid conjecture.

[ewallace]

Fred- Don't pay attention to MP. His school doesn't even spar! :)

Maybe the reason that bare-knucklers didn't get broken hands as often was because they got used to it. They probably figured out from experience exactly where you can and cannot safely punch someone when your hands are unprotected.

[old jong]

Well,I doupt it because these things would have been documented for sure. I believe these early karateka were in fact building their own natural "boneknuckles" ;)by relentless practice on the makiwara board. This practice by creating stress in the bones forces them to grow larger and stronger,allowing them to endure severe impacts without risks.This is a slow and patient process in witch technique, joints alignment,breathing and everything else must be done correctly.
There are still "old school" dojo doing that kind of practice. I have a good friend who teaches in a very traditionnal shotokan place.
I for myself prefer to train iron palm in a less strenous way!... ;)

[SanShou Guru]

You can hit harder with a wrapped hand...period. People always use the "Breaking" argument i.e. I can break a brick with my fist. That’s great I have a new challenge; tie 150 bricks to the ceiling, get them all swinging then run around and break all of them as they are moving and not hurt your hand. Most boxers could hit a stationary target vary hard and not hurt their hand (much), but in a fight the target is not stationary. Don’t most NHB fights now have the 5 oz glove? I would think those guys would be the ones to train to hit bare knuckled but even those sports are adjusting.

You may train to be able to punch with a bare hand but if I hand to choose taking an bare knuckle shot from a bare knuckle fighter or a gloved shot from Mike Tyson I’m taking the bare knuckle one every time. You could probably condition your hand over a very long time to be able to throw a full bare knuckle shot and not break it on an off center impact but your hand would be deformed from the tempering and arthritis would almost certainly be in your future.

In a street fight you will punch as hard as you can and worry about the consequences later, but in a set fight you will be wary of hurting your hand. Take away that fear and you can hit much harder and more often.

I’ve been in San Shou for over ten years and have wrapped my hands ever since I learned how to hit hard. I will get tendonitis in my wrist for a few days after throwing even a few punches without wrapping. Maybe I have bad hands but I’ve hurt many good fighters with those bad hands.

[Gabriel]

Lol braden. Funny, but who are you responding to? :p

Oh nevermind, you edited :D

SanShou Guru

so...you contend can hit harder with wrapped hands, but I say can you do as much damage? For instance..can i guy break a brick, when hes wearing a glove? I certainly couldn't...

Its all in the conditioning really. Through finger strengthening excercises, iron palm, and iron hand, the fist becomes more durable and hardy. Coddling your fist in a glove is what keeps it soft.

Oh, I suppose creedence must be lent to wrist and fist position, and also knowing where to and where not to strike. But conditioning is the most important element, imo.

Gabriel

[Braden]

I just deleted because I didn't want to get dragged into it. But since you replied to me...

I said: One of my girlfriends who is 100lbs and untrained broke her hand hitting someone.

And I was responding to the main question asked in the thread.

I appended: I once put out my back sneezing.

Which has 50% my odd sense of humor and 50% elaborating on my underlying argument very vaguely.

[Shadowboxer]

Hey MP,

Have you ever heard of or seen Master Pan Qin Yu (I think). I'll check on the name. Anyway, he trained with like 15 different Sifu in China and at one point took on some of the Triads. He carries a metal plate around with him in one hand and punches it throughout the day with the other. He's got crazy calloused knuckles because of this and can apparently hit HARD. I think, if memory serves me, he will only hit a person with about 30% of his full power. How he measures 30%, I don't know. Intersesting though. Anybody else punch with the vertical fist?

[Merryprankster]

Braden,

I've thrown my back out sneezing too. While brushing my teeth. My little brother was in the bathroom and laughed as I fell over with spit coming out of my mouth. :)

And, um, "Easy Lenny :D" Just for the record you have at least got me wondering if there really is something different about an internal shot.

This whole thing wasn't designed to be a boxing punches harder thread. It was designed to perhaps provoke some discussion. It's a very real possibility that boxers hit harder...but that doesn't mean they do. :)

Shadowboxer---Yeah, I've heard of that guy. Some people on here have made references to him before.

[SevenStar]

Here's a short bio about pan qin fu - you can see his knuckles in one of the pics

http://www.masterpan.com/text/Biography.htm

[Braden]

I suspect boxers probably do hit abnormally hard. I just don't think that is the primary reason behind breaking the hands.

I'm really not sure what to say on the topic, which is why I deleted my post - but Gab caught it too quick. ;P

Really, I don't think there's such a thing as "hard," by which I mean, I don't think the practical/functional power of a strike is a one-dimensional variable. There's alot of stuff going on... and I think one of the things that's going on is transmitting power in a way which doesn't damage your own body. So the whole issue I think is pretty complex.

FWIW, I think the environment in which your training methods evolved dictates how you approach these issues. I know the gloves thing sounds a little whiney... but if your training tools evolved to hit as hard as possible with gloves on, that's what they're going to do. And I think we'd have to agree this is going to be a bit different than hitting hard without the gloves on.

What this means, I have no idea.

P.S. Pin Qin Fu is crazy.

[Merryprankster]

Yup, I'd say we do agree. Most likely different... but to what extent, and in what way. I'm hardly qualified to answer it, and I'm not even sure I care :D

It would be interesting, though, to just get a meter like the one in Rocky IV and check it out though :)

[Fred Sanford]

I dunno.

My school's specialty, I guess you could say, is bare knuckle fighting. the majority of our sparring is done bare knuckle. We hit the heavy bag, and spar at times with gloves and wraps on, but we also do hand and arm conditioning that a boxing school would never do.

I'm certain that I'm learning to hit plenty hard enough to get the job done. that's all I'm worried about.

[Helicopter]

Just as an intresting side note I was told recently that another reason for the Gentleman Jim boxing stance was that they bare knuckles were used as a backfist to the eyebrow. This was to split it so the blood ran into the opponents eyes effectivly blinding him.

This is probably a myth, but I've heard that one reasons for the knuckles being broken is that the jaw bone is 'harder' than the knuckle.

jpcm

[Nichiren]

Shinbushi; Excellent posts.

Hitting a stationary target hard, e.g. a brick, is totally different than a moving one. Most of the injuries to hands happens because the opponent moves just before impact.

- If you throw a hard cross and he ducks in to it you may sustain a crushed knuckle.

- If you throw a hook and, as mentioned in posts, hits with the pinkie knuckle you may brake the bone (done that...).

- If you just are unlucky and connect to the head in an angle or before/after calculated impact, you may brake your wrist or your thumb.

/Cheers

[Leto]

I lived in Okinawa for two years. I never heard of any such museum of martial arts. I would have been there if I had. It could be some little out of the way place in somebody's dojo, I guess. There are plenty of little out of the way dojos in Okinawa, that you would never find without knowing exactly where it was. Not too many of them advertise to Americans. And Okinawans did have the equivalent of 'brass knuckles' or 'knuckledusters'. It is a weapon called 'tekku', it was practiced in traditional kobujutsu.
Why people break their hands punching...hitting a moving target probably has much to do with it, I agree. The small bones, especially the last two fingers, are susceptible to breaking, which is exactly why we don't practice punching with them. But they may end up hitting if an opponent moves in the right way. Conditioning, like Pan Qin Fu, might make such breaks less likely...but not too many people are willing to go to that extreme in order to be able to punch. With a little conditioning, striking a makiwara or something similar, we can pretty much ensure the first two knuckles won't break when striking or being struck. The rest is up to luck and/or skill...punching areas of the body which are hard, like the skull, increase the chance of a break.
Remember the first UFC? There was a match between a sumo wrestler, and a savate guy, I think. The savate guy avoided the sumo's charge, and the sumo ended up on the ground. Savate punched him square in the forehead, knocking him out, but the punch broke his hand.

[BrentCarey]

Some/most of this has been said, but I will try to summarize and add a couple of points.

First, when a boxer breaks a bone in the hand, it typically fractures the fifth and/or sometimes the fourth metacarpal. Of course, the metacarpals are the long bones in the palm of the hand that connect the wrist to the finger (more or less) the fifth goes to the pinky and is the most common fracture, the fourth is its neighbor.

OK, first let's look at the way the boxer hits. Keep in mind I am not a boxer, boxing expert, or even a boxing fan. In fact, I hate boxing, but that's beside the point. In my observations, boxers hit primarily five ways: jab (straight punch) to the head, jab (straight punch) to the abdomen, uppercut to the head, hook to the head, and sometimes hook to the body.

Let's look particularly at the hook to the head. Assuming, that the goal is to let the first two knuckles (index and middle finger) take the majority of the force (as would be the most geometrically advantageous and anatomically safest) imagine throwing a right hook to someone's head. OK, now just before you make contact (with your first two knuckles), imagine that the person pulls back a few inches. Which part of your fist makes contact? Metacarpals five and four in that order, right?

OK, so that's problem #1, and I contend the main reason for most breaks of these two bones. Also, boxers seem to throw a lot more force behind those hooks than into their jabs. I have also seen many boxers jabbing with the outside of the fist (metacarpals four and five), but I suppose this to be bad form even in boxing terms.

So, problem #2, now we strap on a pair of boxing gloves. Bare-fisted, the greatest protectors of the delicate bones in your hands are tense muscles/tendons and a tight fist. Can you get a really tight fist with a boxing glove on? I can't. It feels to me like wearing a diaper on my hand or socks in the shower. Anyway, without a tight fist, I lose most of the protection I would ordinarily gain by having one. The glove would provide adequate protection if I was not capable of hitting hard enough to penetrate the padding, and if it wasn't for problem #3.

Finally, problem #3. With no glove, a person (properly trained) has absolute control of striking surface with a stationary target. That is, he/she can impact with precisely the part of the hand he/she intends. A boxing glove changes those dynamics quite a bit. A strike over the second and third metacarpals (index and middle) can send kinetic energy all the way over to the fourth and fifth.

Granted, much of this kinetic energy is dissipated throughout the rest of the hand and wrist, and a certain amount is stored momentarily in the form of compressed foam. However, my point is that the direction of kinetic energy is less precise. It is conceivable that a punch could be made hard enough over the index and middle fingers to fracture the fifth metacarpal, especially without the protection of a tight fist.

So, in order of likeliness and importance, I would say that the hook is the primary contributor, lack of a tight fist is the second most significant contributor, and misdirection of kinetic energy caused by the glove is the third.

Corrections and refinements to these assertions from someone with more boxing knowledge/experience are welcome.

Peace,

Brent Carey

[apoweyn]

merryprankster,

i've got one of those heavy bags that tells you how hard you hit. how reliable it is, i have no idea. never even had the chance to use it. but when either you or i have a place to put the bloody thing (i.e., not in an apartment), we'll have a go.


stuart b.

[Le nOObi]

Isnt the old timey english boxing stance the exact same thing as the Baji pre-fighting stance?

[Gabriel]

I think what messes me up when I consider the "I can hit harder with gloves on" argument is, ok, you can hit with more strength perhaps, but can you do as much damage? After all, the harder the implement you use to hit someone, the more damage it will do, imo. Also the conditioning angle I mentioned earlier comes into play. So, you're sacrificing doing more damage for hitting "harder". I say don't expend as much energy, and do equal or more damage. Burn your gloves! :)

Also, the topic of self defense inevitibly raises its ugly mug. Using gloves doesn't really prepare for a "real" life situation, unless you walk around with your gloves on your hands as a permanent condition. To put my point another way, you're more likely to break your hand on someones head in a real confrontation if you havent conditioned your hands, and are used to having padding wrapped around your hands!

Gabriel

[PLCrane]

Interesting question. The common location (4th and 5th metacarpals) suggests that it's from hitting with the wrong knuckles. I'm not sure how a boxing glove changes the forces on the hand, so I don't know if there's a different mechanism involved if when it happens with vs. without a glove.

Here's a medical descriptiion of Boxer's Fracture, although there's really little information of the mechanism of injury.
http://www.emedicine.com/aaem/topic53.htm

Here's a link to Wheeless' Textbook of Orthopedics, which differentiates a the more common Boxer's fracture of the metacarpal neck from a fracture of the metacarpal head, the latter which they state is caused by the force going straight onto the mc head. They don't mention which way the force goes on the Boxer's fracture, but if you look at the xray, it looks like the bone was forced into flexion, as if the punch hit a little toward the back of the knuckle with the wrist slightly bent. I'm guess on that last part.
http://www.medmedia.com/ooa1/175.htm

Here's a description of common mechanisms of different hand injuries. http://www.emedicine.com/plastic/topic511.htm Interesting, but it still doesn't answer the question of what factors contribute to fracture. Seems like the medical profession is satisfied that if you hit a hard object, you're likely to break your hand, rather than trying to figure out how to hit a hard object without breaking your hand. I'm not finished yet.

If you're ambitious, you could dig up the following articles and see if they have anything approaching an answer. This is what I got from a medline search for "boxing and fractures".

1: Barton N. Related Articles
Sports injuries of the hand and wrist.
Br J Sports Med. 1997 Sep;31(3):191-6. Review. No abstract available.
PMID: 9298551 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

2: Cavanagh S. Related Articles
The true 'boxer's fracture'?
Injury. 1992;23(3):204-5. No abstract available.
PMID: 1587579 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

3: Porter ML, Hodgkinson JP, Hirst P, Wharton MR, Cunliffe M. Related Articles
The boxers' fracture: a prospective study of functional recovery.
Arch Emerg Med. 1988 Dec;5(4):212-5.
PMID: 3233134 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

4: Larose JH, Sik KD. Related Articles
Knuckle fracture. A mechanism of injury.
JAMA. 1968 Oct 21;206(4):893-4. No abstract available.
PMID: 5695674 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Merryprankster]

BrentCarey,

You forgot the cross. You try to land with the first two knuckles rather than the last two, and that's on all punches, be they uppercut, jab, or no.

Personally, I find that wrapping your hands solves the problem of not being able to make a tight fist in a boxing glove. In fact, I happen to believe that rather than support per se, the primary purpose of a handwrap is to take up all that bloody space in the glvoe!! :) Of course, it's support is also undeniable.

When I use fingerless MMA type gloves, I have no need to wrap my hands.

Out of curiosity Brent, why do you hate boxing?

Gabriel, and anybody else who cares :)-- I agree that gloves don't have much value for a self-defense situation, but you don't box for self-defense. You box to learn to box.

I definately agree that the location of the fracture is indicative of hitting a hard surface with the last two knuckles. Of course, when you hit very hard, that becomes the problem ;) My boxing coach tells us point blank that if we ever have to use what skills we have in defense, then target the heart, the solar plexus, the floating ribs, liver and kidneys, and then get the hell out of dodge....why? Because if you hit the opponent in the head, you'll probably break your hand :)

Ap--cool! We'll check it out some time :)

[BrentCarey]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Out of curiosity Brent, why do you hate boxing?

Well, I should point out that I don't hate boxers, just the sport of boxing, and I suppose probably just professional boxing. From my limited (and mostly disinterested) perspective, it doesn't appear to be much better than professional wrestling.

My criticisms are largely unfair. I watch professional boxers on TV and say to myself that I know a dozen people that could beat them in a fight. Granted, they could not beat them at boxing, but boxing is not fighting. I tend to evaluate boxing as a martial art, and not as a sport in its own right, which is probably an unfair context.

I remember having this conversation with a boxing fan about 10 years ago. He was saying that so-and-so (whoever the current heavyweight champion was at the time) had proven himself as the world's greatest fighter. I contended that no, in fact, he may have been the best "boxer", but that there were plenty of people that could beat him in a fight with no rules.

So add to this the fact that I don't care much for organized, especially professional sports in general. Hype, staged WWF-style performances outside the ring, cheesy marketing, etc... It all adds up to turn me off.

As far as the sport goes, two people going toe to toe to try to knock each other out seems pretty primitive. Ego, machismo, contempt, lack of respect, etc...

I imagine that amateur boxing is probably much better (like most amateur sports). I'll be the first to admit that my opinions are based largely on ignorance of the sport and unfair judgements. I just don't have any interest in learning more about it.

So, no offense intended to boxers. I imagine that most people that enjoy participating in the sport aren't very pleased with the direction and image of professional boxing either.

It's like someone said in some movie, "Whenever there's somethin' that's good and worth doin', someone will figure out a way to package and sell it so it ain't worth doin' no more." (or something to that effect)

By the way Merryprankster, thanks for the comments on the cross and taping. As I pointed out, I really don't know anything first hand about boxing specifically, just my outside observations.


- Brent Carey

[Merryprankster]

Brent--would you at least agree that a competant boxer is a reasonably dangerous opponent in or outside the ring?

Just asking--I certainly agree that being the greatest boxer and the greatest fighter isn't the same thing. I would argue that being the greatest boxer means you're fairly dangerous in your own right, however.

And I can appreciate your disgust at the shenanigans of pro boxing.

[Shadowboxer]

So, I guess nobody else hits with the vertical fist? In WC training, we hit with knuckles 2,3,4 because this gives the (vertical fist) punch bone alignment with the entire forearm. Knuckles 1,2 would not. I personally aim for 2,3. We punch on a wall bag filled with sand or harder material. To add power, we strive to move the entire body with each punch by dragging our rear foot instead of picking it up and stepping (thereby keeping rooted to the ground) so we hit wth the entire body mass. My sihing can hit hard. Luckily they don't very often. Then add jing to the equation. Ouch!

[PLCrane]

I use a vertical fist more often than horizontal, and I use my first two knuckles, not the last two. Only time I use the last two is if I'm following through with a second impulse (from contact, after hitting with the first two). Everthing lines up just fine.

[BrentCarey]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Brent--would you at least agree that a competant boxer is a reasonably dangerous opponent in or outside the ring?

Sorry to take so long to respond to this. I just noticed your post.

I think there are a few things that make a formidable fighter. In no certain order:

1) Nerve - being comfortable in combat and being able to act with resolve

2) Rapid perception and quick thinking - the ability to perceive motions and react quickly and appropriately

3) Speed - the ability to quickly execute moves quickly

4) Accuracy - the ability to make contact (offensive or defensive) with precision for the desired effect

I contend that these are most important traits. Anyone that has refined these traits will be a formidable opponent. Also, power is useful inasmuch as it tends to increase the overall effect of certain techniques, but it is no substitute for items 1-3. However, it can compensate somewhat for less than perfect accuracy.

So, given that a boxer (or any other practitioner) has developed nerve, perception/reflexes, speed, accuracy, and power, the exact style is not particularly relevant. How's that for a controversial statement?

So, what I am saying is that if an opponent throws a punch at me, I see it coming, don't panic, decide to block or evade, and am able to do so before the punch hits me, it doesn't matter how I blocked or evaded. When I decide to counter, if I am able to perceive the best opening/target, have the resolve to counter-attack, can punch my opponent before he can block/evade, and can strike my target with precision and/or power, it doesn't much matter what type of strike I use (within reason).

So, to answer your question, I definitely agree. However, the boxer's advantage will tend to wane, the ****her the conflict gets from an upright fist fight. Sure, the aforementioned traits will certainly give the boxer some advantage, but he may not be able to apply this advantage as he may lack the knowledge/practice of applicable techniques.

Certainly this applies to the "pure" boxer - the boxer with no other martial arts training. I believe that a skilled boxer can quickly learn to adapt to various self-defense situations by briefly studying other systems.

Some people would claim that the skilled boxer would have to forget everything he had learned before he could effectively study style X. I would assert that if he had developed the traits listed above, the rest is just details.

It's like language. If you want to learn a foreign language, you do not need to relearn all the concepts of linguistics, just new grammar and vocabulary. If a person has strong communication skills, it doesn't much matter which language he speaks.

Of course, the analogy falls apart at a point. A person that speaks Russian will have little luck conversing with a person that speaks Japanese, yet a boxer can fight a judo practitioner. However, it could be said that a judo practioner would do his best against another judo practioner, just as a boxer would do his best against another boxer.

That's why competitions that mix styles have limited value and interest (for me anyway). Take two fighters, a kickboxer and a southern mantis practitioner, and put them against each other in a boxing match. The mantis practitioner may be vastly superior but unable to compete effectively in this venue.

Let me make one more analogy (and I promise I'll bring this to a close). I used to run sled dogs. For those that don't know, races are not won these days by Siberian huskies or Alaskan malamutes (pure breds). Races are pretty much run and won by a loosely defined mixed breed called the Alaskan husky.

What is an Alaskan husky? Well, mix several breeds together, selecting for those traits that make the best sled dogs, and that's an Alaskan husky. What does one look like? Well, it has four legs, is fast and agressive, and usually not much to look at. Sound familiar?

Some people just like Siberian huskies or Alaskan malamutes. So, many races have a separate class just for teams with these breeds exclusively. Sound familiar? The racing community recognizes that although these pure breeds are not necessarily the fastest, they have their own merit, personality, and beauty that should be recognized and accepted.

Unfortunately, the MA community is not usually so accepting. It always seems to come down to, "My style can beat up your style." Well, as I've pointed out elsewhere, we live in a society where style dominance has very little relevance. Each style needs to be evaluated on its own merits.

Sorry about the lengthy post. I just made a fairly anti-boxing statement earlier, and I am very much an advocate of embracing martial arts diversity. I just wanted to explain myself more completely.

Best regards,

Brent Carey

[Merryprankster]

Brent, you've been far to even-handed for me to even think that you "meant anything by it."

My personal feeling is that the closer you get to an "anything goes" situation, the more you can evaluate who is the better fighter. This is why MMA type comps are useful little gadgets for those who are interested in doing them to gauge their skills. It's not necessary, of course.

I think 99% of what you have to say is accurate, and we disagree a bit on the MMA type comps, but that's really not that big a deal.

[BrentCarey]

Originally posted by Shadowboxer
In WC training, we hit with knuckles 2,3,4 because this gives the (vertical fist) punch bone alignment with the entire forearm. Knuckles 1,2 would not.
This depends on the hand. I'm assuming you are numbering the knuckles 1-4 from index to little finger. The geometry of the hand is such that the metacarpals extend from the wrist radially. So, as one cants one's wrist to lead with a specific knuckle, the metacarpal will in fact line up with the forearm, no matter which knuckly one leads with.

Striking with the fifth metacarpal (knuckle 4) is statistically risky business. This is easily the most common break that results from punching. Metacarpal 4 (knuckle 3) is the second most common break. These bones are simply not as strong as metacarpals 2 and 3 (knuckles 1 and 2). Also, metacarpals 2 and 3 are reinforced by the thumb when the fist is clenched.

Also, note that when many/most people cant their wrists to strike evenly with knuckles 2, 3, and 4 this places the other side of the hand (index and thumb side) at such an angle to the wrist that a misplaced blow can put excessive stress on the wrist.

To demonstrate this, cant your wrist to strike with knuckles 2, 3, and 4. Now, keep your wrist and fist relaxed to make this easier to see. With your wrist relaxed, and your hand in this position, take your other hand and push firmly on the first knuckle (index finger) toward your forearm/wrist. See bending and/or compression?

Now cant your wrist to strike with knuckles 1 and 2 and push on knuckle 4 (if your hand doesn't just slide off). The bending and compression is much less noticeable.

Of course, every hand/wrist is different, but there are general mechanical and medical advantages to striking with knuckles 1 and 2 as opposed to the other side of the fist.

Don't interpret this to mean that I am saying that the other approach is wrong. Each style has its own reasons for doing things certain ways that may disadvantageous when observed out of context. I'm just expressing a few points to look at when discussing punches. Overall, I am also saying that I have looked at hundreds (thousands?) of students' fists, and I can tell you that not everyone is the same. Some people can't even make a proper fist. So, each person needs to individually evaluate how he/she punches. One size does not fit all.


Best regards,

Brent Carey

[BrentCarey]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Brent, [...] I think 99% of what you have to say is accurate
Wow, 49% better than my daily average. :D

-Brent

[Kaitain(UK)]

get a heavy bag - put gloves on - swing your arm wildly at it as hard as you can
get a heavy bag - take gloves off - swing your arm wildly at it as hard as you can

you will probably bust your hand/wrist up on the second exercise

I can punch as hard with or without gloves - but if I make even a slight error in alignment on a hook without gloves on then I will screw my wrist/hand up

Consequently I practice without gloves only once a week - it's just too easy to screw the hands up. I do a lot of alignment work - swinging the heavy bag and receiving the force from it in the 'extended' position of a punch. I guess it's a type of conditioning - but it's not fool-proof.

Take pad work - if you have a bad pad partner they might push the pad into your strike, if your alignment is out and you aren't wearing gloves this can often lead to tendon pain in the elbow on hooks or shoulder trouble on straight punches. Wearing gloves/wraps minimises this - if I don't know the guy I'm doing pad work with I put wraps on.

I think boxers and MA's hands break because they don't practice hitting hard things without gloves on - that compression of the bones in the hand is minimal when wearing gloves. I would contend that bare knuckle fighters rarely had injuries of this type because they were conditioned against it through all the fighting - a kind of darwinism - those with naturally tough hands and good alignment succeeded whereas those who bust their hands up failed.

I really disagree with that article posted near the top - MA has not adopted modern boxing power generation, the hardest way to punch is with torque and you can read any classic from any art and it will tell you this. A boxers guard is closer to the body because the gloves give a greater blocking area - in bareknuckle you need a distanced guard because you have to cover the same amount of target with far less. If you put your fists together in front of your face someone can still get a clean shot on you - someone with gloves is far better covered.