Is Mantis bad for your health?

[David]

Twice this year I've heard it said that training spm is bad for you in the long term.

One of the reasons I train it is for health...

Does anyone have any knowledge to share on this?

The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
-- Hong Kong Phooey

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

With southern kung Fu - especially southern praying mantis, the hand conditioning exercises are bad for your long term health.


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

[mantis-1]

The type of conditioning that you do in Southern Mantis is unlike the conditioning in Karate or Takwondo where the skin is built up over the knuckles and legs to deaden the pain. Mantis practitioners retain soft subtle skin almost like in Tai Chi where the bones/marrow is strengthened from the inside out and not the outside in. But this is just how I understand it and I could be wrong.

[Ben Gash]

All the negativity of SPM flamewars accumulates and has a negative effect on your health ;)
Seriously though, I'd never heard that. Isn't Ip Sigung in his 80s and taught a seminar here last year?

"Weapons are the embodiments of fear,
the wise use them only when they have no choice"
Lao Tzu

[Crimson Phoenix]

OK...bagua is supposed to be good for your health, right? But Dong Hai Chuan died with a major eye-disease that left him blind, one of his student too, and one other famous direct student died of cancer (I don't have the name right now but I will get it if you want).
Don't get me wrong, I started training bagua a year ago and I love every bit of it...it's just that I think some connections shouldn't be made, as health is a complex thing we don't understand...and since I assume you don't spend all your time training (if you are, lucky you!), there are many exterior causes that can influence your health either way...I doubt that a style like SPM would have been passed on without warning if it were so obvious all the guys training hard in it had health-related problems...and I'm sure you can find many SPM that live well and train until old...Also, a fork is pretty useful...but if you stick it in your eye instead of in your mouth it hurts...this silly image is just here to remind that it's not what you train but how you train it that could be dangerous...
These were my two euros...

Phoenix

[David]

I have no idea what the problems might be. Maybe the hard chi gungs of spm can stress your organs if performed incorrectly or something like that.

My own experience and observation is that there's no harm if done correctly.

GM Ip Shui is 90 and, last I heard, still kicking ass. He was in supergood shape when I saw him in '99.

Glad that nobody knows a reason to avoid spm! :)

The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
-- Hong Kong Phooey

[fiercest tiger]

it all depends on the medicine, healing methods and chi kung that is taught. hitting your body can be bad if no medicine is used and proper teaching of conditioning.

southern mantis is very big on this, who are you training with? sifu whitrod? ip sui? sifu tony leung?

hope this helps

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http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[David]

I train in South-West England with Bill Spraggs and Rob Dawkins (they aren't famous or anything) under Paul Whitrod. Bill and Rob have trained under Tony Leung previously. Sometimes, Paul comes down to see us.

For a time, I trained under Ip shui's son, Ip Chee Keung but he doesn't come this way any more.

We use Paul's dit dar jow.

The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
-- Hong Kong Phooey

[L D S]

This is what I've heard:

The related styles Bak Mei Pai, Leung Pai, Yau Kung Moon and Chu Gar Tong Long being bad for your health. Because of the 'shrimp back', in & out of chest movement.

Some styles in HK referr to the accident in the 80's at a full contact bout in which a BMP contestant died. And they referr to the age of many of their practitioners. Not reaching the 80-100 level what you see with Hung Gar practitioners.

I'm truly a Hakka Style lover, don't let this be misinterpreted! Fighting tactics, excertion of force are just top of the range.

Ling

[Crimson Phoenix]

I'm not very informed well about hakka arts...but the chest in and out is a major way of issuing power in white crane...only this styles uses also the waving and relaxation of the spine (whipping power)...do SPM also use these kinds of movements? If they do, then why white crane has a good reputation of longevity (in fact, the cranes are often symbols of longevity for China) while SPM has the reputation of harmful practices...
Nevertheless, if "shrimp back" means a rounded and tensed back with only the chest (scapular belt) issuing power by whipping, then I imagine there could be problems here...anyone could enlighten me?

Phoenix

[fiercest tiger]

g/master ip sui is 88 yrs old, i think chow fook sifu lived in his 80's or 90's. i dont know story about the bak mei pai dying in hongkong can you tell us please! my sifu passes away at 72 of bowel cancer, not from the tung to, or hum hung batt boy postures.

when practising the ging, if the head isnt sitting the correct way and teeth arent clenched properly, you can suffer head aches. if you eat well and live a good life, drug free etc, you will live longer..still i would like to know if any damage is done through this training!!

look at aust rugby league they take bigger hits then any kung fu man, these guys live ok, unless they hit the grog after retiring!! :D

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[NorthernMantis]

YOu mean if you eat them then maybe. :D

"Always be ready"

[L D S]

Fiercest Tiger

The contest was held on Sept. 30 1979 in Hong Kong. A student of Lama Pai, Lam Shum Shun (20), 'killed' a student of BMP, Chan Ming Tak (17).

These (sanshou) contests were held regularly and had there beginnings 10 years before.

Ling

[David]

Regarding longevity there was a mistaken idea that Ip Shui's master Lau Sui died in his early 40's. He actually lived to 76 or 78. Lau Sui's name is associated with Chu Gar style even though Ip Shui renamed it after succession.

The "shrimp back" could easily cause you harm. I reckon I could rupture my own organs through bad application of technique. We are taught to apply the force of breath and ribs gently for a year before adding any power. This is so correct alignment is learned first.

The spine is kept quite straight even in the most apparently curved situation. The head is back and the buttocks tucked, anus lifted, pelvis rotated. The curvature is exaggerated by having the shoulders thrust so far forward (for extra reach).
In my taiji class, the teacher thought I had shoulder problems because they wanted to go forwards all the time. They still do. It took a lot of effort in taiji to get them back but, anyway, I don't train that any more.

That's all I got time for now...

The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
-- Hong Kong Phooey

[fiercest tiger]

thanks for the info, i wonder what teachnique the lama dude did on the bak mei guy???

17 years old, i guess he didnt have much bak mei practice to go out and fight..what im saying pretty young for fighting in a bak mei style, unless he started at 7 yrs old!!

thanks again!

oh! was he a cheung lai chun student? was clc alive at that time? :D

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[L D S]

fiercest tiger

Chan Ming Tak was 17, but in those days you could enter such a contest in this age. He had a young BMP sifu.

I met Lam twice. Lam Shum Shun's sifu was, if I can recall, called Lo. He also studied under a high ranked Taekwondo master.
He killed his opponent with a right round kick, and because he started with a faint the initial block was low.

This is al the information I can share with you.

The 'shrimp back' coupled with improper breathing is very dangerous.

Ling

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Ling

"This is al the information I can share with you."

Well obviously! it is unlikely that his opponent can share with you his side of the story!


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

[L D S]

Ego Extraordinaire

What can you share with us?
Do you have some real live accounts to tell us, or are you just one of these computernerds that can only play Kung Fu Games in stead of playing the real thing.

Ling

[Richard mantis]

Hello
I have been training with Gin Foon Mark for almost 12 years {although I dropped out for a while}.

He is 73 and still in great health. He still teaches and is not at all ready for retirement.

His hands are unusually soft and warm to the touch and he is still untouchable in terms of his skill.

Not to bad for a guy that's 73 and diabetic.

I can say personally that I had a bad case of carpel tunnel in both hands. So bad in my right hand that at one point I could hardly hold a pencil. After a couple acupuncture treatments and some basic som bo dan movements my hands were back in shape in about two weeks and have been fine ever since. The hand movements of SPM actually helped my carpel tunnel.

After over 11 years in SPM I have never seen anything personally to suggest that it is bad for one's health.

Rich

[djh]

Hey David,

I train with Paul Brennan in Australia (Chow Gar) and have had this conversation before. Incorrect training of chi kung can cause problems but the main one is body conditioning when the student isn't ready for it. There is one particular well known SPM school (not Chow Gar) here that trains regardless of these factors and the rapid aging of the students becomes evident after a few years. If your school is under the guidance of GM Ip Shui and his son, I wouldn't worry about it. Most of the Chow Gar guys I've seen age very well and stay remarkably healthy and strong until very advanced ages.

[L D S]

Hi Rich,

This is amazing. Health benefits concerning your carpel tunnel syndrom.
Can you tell us more about the acupuncture treatment?
What are som bo dan movements?

I'm just curious.

Ling

[Richard mantis]

The acupuncture was administerd by Master Gin Foon Mark himself. I do not remember much about the specifics except that the needles were placed all the way up my right arm and mostly around the wrist in question. It hurt for quite a while after the needles were removed. Improvment came quickly over the next few days. What the acupuncture did not do, the som bo dan exercices did. The excercies finished the process for me.

Som bo dan is a few short simple thrusts with the knuckle and fingertips with a grabbing motion as well. Also a flicking movement was also a big help in improving my condition.

Som bo dan is a somewhat long one man form but I concentrated mostly on the short thrusts or "Three power strike" as it's been dubbed.

Rich

[David]

So, it seems we agreed, then, that correctly taught/trained southern mantis is NOT bad for your health.

It's good to know! :cool:

The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
-- Hong Kong Phooey

[Juggler]

I agree with David.

There is no scientific evidence to suggest that Southern Praying Mantis is harmful. And correct me if I'm wrong, but there's no credible anecdotal evidence, either.

[likuei]

If you read the Taiji classics, some of them describe the SPM posture more as opposed to the posture used by most taiji people today. Both are Taoist arts and I suspect that when the Taoist priests met annually at Longfushan the martialists may have exchanged some skill.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Ling

Well obviosly, the fact that Ego still around is prove that Ego has triumphed those real life enounters - as expected.

Are what the hell are you - some sort of forum ****?


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

[David]

likuei,
I'd like to read this SPM material from the taiji classics. Where is it, please?

When I did yang shortform taiji (only for a short while), I observed that it achieved similar martial effects with (almost) exact opposite methods and posture. The same for the health benefit claims except that spm has soft chi gungs AND hard ones. This paradox made me a slow taiji student and also led to me quitting so I could focus on the mantis.

The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
-- Hong Kong Phooey

[likuei]

Any book with a translation of the taiji classics. Probably the easiest to find would be Yang Jwing Mings Taiji book. It has the translation and then his interpretation. Try reading the translation without his explanation.

[CannonFist]

In the taiji classics, it is mentioned that the postures should be "han xiong ba bei" (swallow the chest and raise the back) this is just like southern mantis posture of "sau kei bui" as mentioned in the southern mantis poems.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Cannonfist

"swallow the chest and raise the back"

Is this basic training for becoming the Hunchback of Notradame? Sometimes students get all serious in class when the sifu is actually joking.

There was once a Southern mantis sifu you taught the class for years luring young boys into his class with lollies and then turning them into Donkeys to do his bidding. No hunchbacks in that class though, although he drove a hatchback .... but that's different!


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

[David]

No good for your ego to not puff out your chest all the time, Ego? Do you want us to admire your breasts?

:eek:

It's not hunching but rather a hanging pose, not bent over so much as reaching forwards whilst pulling the body back out of harm's way. Uncommitted and ready. :)

The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
-- Hong Kong Phooey

[L D S]

Ego Extraordinaire

I'm glad you survive in your daily struggle with our human species.

Maybe we can meet to exchange hands. I'll be in Edison, New Jersey next month, visiting friends and relatives.

Ling

[CannonFist]

Ego,

Sometimes your humor does bring out some of the ridiculous things done in martial arts. It is true some miguided people overemphasise things like the swallowing of the chest but doing it improperly that they are "hunching".

On another note, ever notice how many animals have their backs raised when in an aggresive stance including dogs, cats, tigers etc..

[mysteri]

you're witty entertainment is well-appreciated! just as one might surmise that the forum is lagging, a flash of humor dances across the screen. what would we do without you? :)

In a fight you should never stick to principles; they should stick to you!

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Cannonfist,

Dogs and stuff move on all fours. The closer relative would probably by the Gorilla. When in an aggressive mood or when you want to reinstate your "alpha-male" status try beating your chest.

Mysteri,

True. A circus will not be complete without its clown. Likewise a villaage will be incomplete without its idiot.


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Ling,

Forgot about you. i would like to exchange hands, but i'm not in any condition to practice kung fu anymore. Until the day nerve cells can be regenerated in the spinal cord, I'll be spending my days in the wheel chair.

what style do you practice anyway?


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

[L D S]

Ego

Well Hakka Styles sure did you no good ;)

If your not over 250 pounds I'll can push your chair. Maybe visit a Kung Fu School or a Tournament.
Or just put some accuneedles in your back and give you a good Chinese rub. Even can do some Chi Kung.
Just let me know.

I'm into southern styles.

Ling

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Ling

Thanks for the offer! I've been getting bigger by the day sitting in the wheel chair. god knows how much I weight these days!

There's a tournie in Sept which I plan to visit. it is run by this Hung Gar school and a friend of mine would be competing.


Maximus Maximize!
ego_maximus@hotmail.com

[Rolling Elbow]

From what I understand, it is the internal training that they practice in southern manits that is bad for you over long periods of time. I was told by my instructor (who trained Goju ryu and Chito Ryu) that the sanchin breathing they do in Goju has been said to take years off your life if it is not balanced with "soft" internal breathing. This came directly from the head of the organization in Japan.

This could stem from he fact that in both these systems, the internal exercises consist of breathing hard and tensing the muscles..this causes higher blood pressure and from what i understand, even damage the insides.

Listen to Fierce Tiger though, I think he knows this stuff more than allot of people on here..plus he is a self proclaimed ninja killa' and Croc hunta'!!

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..

[David]

Rolling Elbow, I've heard that the ironwire work can shorten your longevity. That's a Hung Gar issue more than a mantis issue.

The teaching I've received is that the muscular tension in the trunk should be firm but not extreme. Doing rib work, the muscles between the ribs (intercostal muscles?) can be worked much harder, I think, but correct alignment there would keep your organs from being pinched or compressed. Though the diaphragm is often pressed/held down, there is a slight tensioned distending of the abdomen, perhaps to make more room for your organs.

So, if I compress my ribs I put pressure on the heart and lungs. If I press the diaphragm, I release pressure on the heart and lungs but increase pressure on the stomach, liver, spleen, kidneys, bladder etc. If I slightly increase the volume of my abdomen by virtue of distending the stomach and holding it there and rotating the pelvis for the stance, pressure on these organs is reduced again. (just thinking aloud here)

And on a more basic level, SPM masters do have reasonable longevity.

The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
-- Hong Kong Phooey

[Barefoot Mantis]

Sanchin Kata is an exercise in acute hyperventilation pathology. It results immediately in an induced respiratory alkalosis, directly afecting the Ph of the brain, causing a trance state. Following on, smooth muscle spasm occurs in the arteries (including the coronary arteries), lungs, and G.I. Tract. Get a go-Ju Ryu karaetak to submit to screening with an infa red mass spectrometer (a clinical capnograph) whilst performing Sanchin Kata and the pathological properties of that 'exercise' become immediately and clearly apparent.

SPM is not as bad, bud has some very dubious ritual routines, including some of its respiratory practices. It's posture is challenged by osteopaths and physiotherapists - but if not overstated and instead used intelligently, is OK.

Little of the above is likely to be popular, but it remains factual nevertheless.

[fiercest tiger]

i cant remember the name of the breathing method, but a goju master visited my school in 1994 and we exchanged theories etc. he said that the breathing wasnt good for him, and that its the opposite way the chinese do it! we have a dynamic tension set in yau kung mun but all muscles around the lungs, heart etc are relaxed, because the tension is focused on the bridge/arms. then we move it to the back, lats, ribs! The breath is done at a moderate pass never forcing the breath to come out, there should be no noise of exhaling like the japanese do it! it can be bad on the organs i have been told...anyways the goju master was at my school for treatment of arthritis in his knuckels from makawara training and never used dit dar medicine. poor guy couldnt open his fingers straight, so i gave him a herbal formula as a gift! :)

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[Rolling Elbow]

Sanchin breathing does not seem worth the effort although htey take a good beating .

FT email me with the particulars will you? I know the combat chi stuff we do is somewhat similar..not in tensing the muscles, but a forced exhalation to the point where you feel you have no more and are about to puke. Is this bad for the insides? Hell man, i might as well just stick to soft inernal breathing..

Hey FT! When are you going to release some video footage of what you guys do. Send it and i'll hit you back with postage costs.. i won't brodacast it and i am all the way in Canada..i just wanna see what you blokes are about. I keep hearing Bak Mei this and that and even Jackie Chan has said it is one of his fav styles..or so I have heard. Let me see some of it!

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..

[fiercest tiger]

i have a video and book out if you wanna buy it? well im co author actually, it has basics and lots of techniques!

:)

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[Rolling Elbow]

I knew you would make me buy a videotape! How do i know its gonna get to me if eventually i decide to purchase it!? **** i wanna see some Bakmei!

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..