Interested in responses...Chi Sau article

[straight blast]

"Some Wing Chun practitioners try to mix Chi Sau with sparring or vice versa, thinking this will improve their Wing Chun or fighting ability. Someone who is good at fighting or sparring will make you look bad if you try to do Chi Sau while sparring. Use Chi Sao as an exercise to make you a better fighter, not while you are fighting or sparring"

Just interested to see what people think of this. I have spoken to a few people (name witheld to protect the ignorant ;) ) who firmly believe that Chi Sau is almost indistinguishable from a real fight. That they would immediately attempt to Chi Sau in the event of a confrontation. And yes, none of these guys have ever been in a fight. I have also heard people tout that if your Chi Sau is good then your fighting ability will be good.

I think that's a load of bollocks.

What do you think?

[sunkuen]

What the hell is "Bollocks"? ****

[straight blast]

It is a colloquialism for "I think these people are in error".

[Miles Teg]

Straight Blast
I think if someone is good at chisao they would be a good fighter. And if they weren't it wouldn't take a lot before they were, e.g a bit of real fighting experience to lessen nervousness and adreneline dumps etc.

[stuartm]

Hi all,

Make no mistake - Chi Sau is not fighting as such, although gor sau can often be very close to sparring ! Chi Sau is an excellent bridge towards sparring, and can build a great deal of confidence as well as skill. I find that the biggest problem with Chi Sau is that you are starting from a position of contact - thus you are already in a position to use your WC skills and stick to your opponent. A fight starts with no contact, and so the key factor in how the fight will develop is in who makes the contact first and uses their skil to maintain contact and obtain a superior advantage. Yes, we all know that Chun Kil is there to 'bridge the gap', but the key is to actually use those skills in a free situation.

It is important to aleays keep a reality check when practising chi sau. I have seen many students who are excellent at chi sau, but who shy away once contact is lost and the situation become 'free' so to speak. I think there are a number of ways (IMO) that you can gear chi sau towards eventual sparring.

1. Hard drilling - one-on-one set drilling using extremely strong attacks which are not pulled. Although you know which attack is coming, learning to deal with realistic speed and force will undoubtedly help you get a feel for more realistic encounters.

2. Loss of contact in chi sau - during a chi sau session ask one of your students to push the other away and the other has to regain contact asap . If you disengage at different angles you can begin to try and use your chum kiu skills to regain your position. You can also practise these drills from a standing position to. Difficult to explain - ill have to post some mpegs !!

For anexcellent article on Chi Sau , go to the following links:

http://www.wingchun.dk/bibliotek/wingchun/ChiSau_TheHeartOfWingChun_uk.htm

Regards, Stuart

[Nichiren]

Straight Blast: I agree 100 per cent...

/Cheers

[Frank Exchange]

Depends how you approach it. Chisao is a means to an end, the end is hitting the opponent as soon as possible.

Why do hours of chisao? So you build sensitivity, reflexes, coordination. But why do you build these skills? So you can hit the opponent as soon and as much as possible.

If you approach a real fight in the hope that you will get contact with an opponents arms, and thus will easily defeat him, then it is extremely likely your opponent will not cooperate. When you attack your opponent, and your attacks are deflected by the opponents arms, that is when you need chisao, and then only the minimum possible to hit the guy. If he is not deflecting your attacks, why chisao at all? Just hit!

You may only need a single tan or gong or redirection or smart piece of footwork to recover a line on your opponent, so it is likely you will only be using your chisao skills for a split second, a tiny proportion of the fight, then you are straight back to the hitting. If you try to chisao your opponent, you will lose. If you try to hit your opponent, and use chisao only when appropriate, you will do better. And may even win ;)

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by sunkuen
What the hell is "Bollocks"? ****

(from Cambridge International Dictionary of English)

bollocks (BODY PART)
plural noun
BRITISH AND AUSTRALIAN SLIGHTLY TABOO SLANG
testicles
Ouch! That caught/hit me right in the bollocks!

bollocks (NONSENSE)
noun [U]
BRITISH SLIGHTLY TABOO SLANG
nonsense
What he said was a load of bollocks.
Bollocks to that (=that's nonsense)!

[stuartm]

Hi Frank Exchange - off the topic a bit, would youmind telling me where you train in hertfordshire?? I have had a student join me recently who wants to know of a good club when he goes back to uni in Herts? Can you help? I seem to remember you train WSL method don't you.

E-mail me privately if you wish to do so on welshwingchun@yahoo.co.uk

Cheers, Stuart

[Dave Farmer]

Hi All

Good call Frank.

why chase the hands when it's easier to dink the head!!

BTW

Bollocks: the ultimate retort.......totally un answerable.

Perhaps my new sig. " Wing Chun....anything else is Bollocks" :D ;) :D

regards

Dave F.

[S.Teebas]

If your fighting and you make contact then you use your skills built in chi-sau.
Its important not to TRY and chase hands. Striking will finish your opponent, not redirecting!

Important abilities are entry into contact (ie maintaining structure) and ability to stick to them so they cant get away as you attack, and keep the pressure on them constantly to wear them down.

Chi-sau does NOT equate to fighting. The objectives are far removed from each other. One is to learn and improve. The other is to smash somone.

[stuartm]

We agree on this at least S.Teebs !

Cheers, Stu

[Rill]

I thought I might throw this into the mix and see what everyone thinks..


When you are fighting, always attack the closest target, and attack it in a straight line. If the enemy's arm is closer to you than his face, forget the face and attack the arm. If you attack the target closest to you, it will more than likely give way to more desirable targets.

Comments?

[yenhoi]

I agree.

But, strickly speaking, "true" WC really wouldent advocate or teach this, perhaps maybe at so-called "advanced" levels - Maybe.

[Spark]

I'm pretty sure that if I tried to "chi sau" in a "real" fight, I'd get smoked. Ever thought what would happen if you tried to chi sau with someone who wouldn't do it back??

[Frank Exchange]

Thats pretty alien to my way of thinking.

On of Wong Shun Leung's favourite sayings was "Fight the Person, not the Arms".

[Lindley57]

Chi Sao "is the bridge between the forms and real fighting". Chi Sao is an exercise, much like sparring in boxing is not boxing in a real fight. Chi Sao in itself can become an acquired skill in which one can master the movements. However, the good Chi Sao player who is also the good fighter is the one who masters not only the movements, but the martial attributes of the Chi Sao such as balance, sensitivity, relaxation, timing, distance awareness and coordination. These attributes in conjunction with the system principles of the centerline theory (shortest distance between two points is a straight line), facing (shoulders square with your target), equal hands, and hand replacement support techniques. . In a real fight or combat situation, throwing your hands into center should and will happen. Trying to roll with your opponent after that, like the exercise, will never happen. Chi Sao is a platform that allows you hours and hours of study and practice so that you can produce a desired response within seconds.

A little Kuen Kuit here. The only reason you Chi Sao is because your partner is offering something on the centerline, which in the exercise is cooperative to some degree. "If nothing is there, your hands should go forward...".

Train hard, train smart. Perfect practice makes perfect.....

[red5angel]

Chi Sau is important to being able to fight because it gives you the ability to control yourself, control your opponent, and listen well. If you do not want to be a good fighter then you will not blow off chi sau. If you want to be a good fighter, practice wingchun diligently and focus on those three things because those are th gifts of Chi Sau. If you do not havethem you will not fight well.
You must also keep in mind that without control of your root, structure, pressure and elbow position in chi sau you will not be able to control these things in a fight. When the pressure is on the worst of your faults will come out. Chi Sau helps us to learn to control these things.
You dont obviously expect to roll with someone in a fight, but Chi Sau will provide you with all of the qualities that you need to successfuly fight or spar.

[reneritchie]

You can fight well without chi sao. Heck, you can fight well without WCK or any MA. Fighting well is not the point, IMHO. Fighting *better* is the point. Chi Sao can help with that, as can other elements in the systematic progression of WCK...


RR

[stuff]

word to that:cool:

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Spark
I'm pretty sure that if I tried to "chi sau" in a "real" fight, I'd get smoked. Ever thought what would happen if you tried to chi sau with someone who wouldn't do it back??
Yeah, he'd get hit! LOL! Where do your hands go if there's no resistance? :)

[S.Teebas]

You must also keep in mind that without control of your root, structure, pressure and elbow position in chi sau you will not be able to control these things in a fight.

Red5Angel,

What would you say are the differences between root and structure?

[red5angel]

No real differences S. Teebas you need good structure to have a solid root.