can a kung fu system be both shaolin and hakka or one or the other

[dirty cat]

are their styles that are purely, say hakka with
no shaolin,are teir styles that started as one
then blended into the other?

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Most styles have no connection with Shaolin until the early 1900s

[yuanfen]

Another ex cathedra pronouncement!

[diego]

:D

[diego]

k i figured that guy deserved his own post

EGO must be gene ching, or hes so fun to throw tomatoes at noone complains to get him banned!.

:) Wich is rather funny hes been doing this before i started posting, what is it almost two years:p oh joy

[diego]

For those not knowing, thiers a running theory ego is a hired writer to get thread traffic on kfo, like he trolls then we post in defence, wich was for the first three months?, last year and a half its always been tomatoes and ****ty lettuce!. But thats still alot of Ad-Traffic!.:rolleyes: ;)

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

what are you going on about Diego. Please write in proper english as none of us have been able to understand a single one of your post for the last one and a half years.

[diego]

:p wich 1ofu?

!.

[reneritchie]

I don't know if Ego is joking or not, but he could well be correct. There were no consumer protection agencies back then who tested the products to determine how much, if any, "Shaolin" was in the packaging.

WRT Hakka, as I've mentioned before, given the immigration patterns of the time, and the parallels between the "Southern Shaolin" legends and Hakka history, I sometimes wonder if "Southern Shaolin" wasn't just a name used by the Hakka, much as "Southern Mantis" was.

RR

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

reneritchie

Much of the history is created post communist revolution and the government is nortorios is doctoring the records.

Lets say Ego is a mighty warrior in ancient china (aka Ego The Great). Would the Ego be concerned about lineage and history of style or rather usage of techniques. Chances are the Ego would have learned from many instructors but mostly from experience in combat.

A Great warrior of yesterday would feel perplexed and confused looking at Southern Kung Fu schools that have all these incumbent traditions attached to them.

Even if the records hadn't been doctored, the difficulty in tracing the lineage is not surprising becasue people at that time had considered that to be a trivial matter.

[reneritchie]

Ego,

IMHO it began long before that, with South Fist history in particular suffering under the competing propaganda of the Qing and the various forms of Societies. After the fall of the Qing, to sway support of overseas organizations, the Nationalists embraced the Society "history" (including its contradictions) and that generation of sifu carried it with them when they taught around the world. Following that, the French added to some confusion, then the Communists and those who competed with their propaganda. Now, finally, things are opening a little bit and more scholarly work is being done.

The legends endure, and personally I enjoy the richness of that cultural aspect, but hopefully more of the history will be reclaimed as well.

RR

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

There really isn't much substance once all the misinformation and contradictions have been removed from southern kung fu history. At best, it was a basic type of self defence. It was hardly ever used because the Qing was an organised government. What the southern kung fu training provided discipline for the society memebers. As for the techniques themselves, they didn't develop much from the days when it was practiced by farmers.

[Colin]

This thread was I believe started because of a post I made on the Lau Gar Kuen thread.

Ego, you so often speak the truth! just makes me laugh the way you do it.

I have to agree with you & RR.
The history of most southern styles is vague at best.

I recently read that the entire Wing Chun story of Ng Mui was a fabrication to enhance the respectability of the style!

As for the Hakka/shaolin lineage.
My comments concerned Lau Gar being a shaolin style, but Master Yau & his family being of Hakka decent.
Whether Lau Gar as taught in the Yau family has been influenced by other "Hakka" systems is open for personal opinion.
I personally think it has, as there are many simularities between Lau and styles such as Bak Mei & Loong Ying.
Admitedly this is not seen that often as much of the Lau Gar taught in the UK has a strong competition basis.
But on a very basic visual level, the 3rd & 4th forms, Charp Choi "drilling punches" & Fai Loong Gee "Finger movements of the Dragon" have much in common with the styles mentioned.

Ego, Do you have a definitive answer to why Hung Gar contains Lau Gar forms?
Some say that Hung absorbed the Lau style, others say that the Lau Gar forms are creations of the Lau brothers in Hong Kong.

cheers
Colin............

[Tao-Yin-Lee]

There is no doubt that Master Jeremy Yau is fully accepted by the Hakka community in the UK as one of their own.

Those who know the Hakka community know this is a simple truth.

Hakka communities would not recognize one who was not one of their own. Master Yau is so recognized.

Tao
www.tibetankungfu.com

[bong]

Hakka this and Hakka that.......

That and Socrates gets you a "A" in history.

For example, few of Monkey's disciples were Hakka.

Mark Foon is Toisanese, as are the Chin's....
Hoo Doon, Norman, Milton, and the Mason Boys are/were Toisanese.

Hakka this and Hakka that.......

Whatever you think is important..........

[Tao-Yin-Lee]

My post had nothing to do with the people you mention - nothing whatsoever.

'One of their own' can mean blood Hakka as Lau-Gar's Master Jeremy Yau is and is recognized as such. It can also mean family in the broader sense.

Collin, In context, Master Yau is Hakka and his hand is acknowledged as Hakka.

Tao.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Colin,

No I don't have a definitive answer. The problem is because the two styles are so similar that they not only have cross influenced but to the point of co-developing. Over time it would appear that the Hung Gar name became the umbrella for the two styles.

I would go so far as to say that the distinction between styles today reflects more on the emphasis of that particular school rather than on historical lineage.

think about this, as i'm wiser than the wisest farmer.