Question for 8 Step brothers about a form

[bokfu]

Greetings~

I was enjoying a website of Wu Tang School ... http://www.wutang.org/ ...and was watching the demo of the praying mantis styles. I was interested of course in the eight step mantis section and there was a form which I did not recognize. It occurs after the small cartwheel form and two man drill. My sifu also did not recognize this and I am still trying to get information on this from Wu Tang. If anyone is able to identify this form, would you please let me know what it is? I am wondering now if it may have just been mislabeled as an eight step mantis form? Thanks for any help in this.

By the way, I think that this web site by the Wu Tang school was one of the nicer martial arts sites. You can find the page/clip at the following address: http://www.wutang.org/styles/styles_eng02.html

[drunkendragon]

I have been in 8-step for 2 years now. My Sifu learned from Shyun Kwang Long. I guess ( could be wrong) that there is 2 different 8-step styles. Ask Paulin he might recognize that set.

[phil]

i think that what you saw is their ending to the 8 step form "Xiao Fan Che". It is different from the endings I've seen at other schools.

phil

[baldmantiz]

i did recognize the beginning movements of xiao fan che with the wheel fists...high block+punch in a horse stance....i didnt end up watching the entire video though so was there more of the form after that

[PaulLin]

My server is not good, it disconnected every time when downloading this form, I will go to another computer center and check it out. Talk later.

[PaulLin]

Windows media player don't work??? No screen, noly the drum sounds.:confused:

[RAF]

Word of caution: That may not be a complete form. He may have been simply playing and mixing. The end has a component from Zhai (Zai) Kui.

You should check out the latest issue of the Japanese martial arts magazine. I have forgotten the spelling of his name, but Chen Guo Qin (Su Yu Zhang's longtime friend who came with Su and participated in the 2001 Tournament Hall of Fame Tournament) who was with Wei Xiao Tang (disciple) is in the magazine. Although half the magazine is about Liu Yun Qiao and baji, Chen Guo Qin shows some fighting applications and there is a picture of Wei Xiao Tang performing a kick. He also does the standard baji position as I understand his baji is also very good. Although Chen Guo Qin learned (mastered?) baji but was primarily an 8 step praying mantis practitioner and also a great fighter (according to my teacher). He helped Master Su teach the Piman fighting set at the last seminar. I watched him demonstrate Xing Yi in the Tournament's Masters' Demonstration and its one of the best I have ever seen.

A couple of months ago I posted his picture from Su Yu Chang's website. He currently lives in Taiwan (I believe) and travels to New York frequently. This guy is very impressive and a real gentleman in person. Oh yeah, he also is in the 8 Step Praying Mantis book listing the pictures of formal students (disciples).

A little re-editing with help from baji fist---thanks!

[baji-fist]

Hey RAF,

Long time no hear!!! Just wanted to let you know, Wu-Tan Alaska will be coming down to Ohio this year and we are all excited to meet up with you all again. Anyway, I remember who it was! His name was Chen Guo-Qin. I taped him performing Xingyiquan and I am still amazed by his skill. Anyway bro, keep in touch. Payce!

[RAF]

Hello baji-fist:

Great to hear from you and great to know you are coming down. Make sure you check out Ma Long's website. Andy Lianto is attending NYU film program and he helped Ma Long put together some of the videos.

Looking forward to seeing you again and I will e-mail you sometime.

Don't want to steal the thunder from the mantis posts.

PS:
Tony Yang and a couple others just got back from Qingdao Tournament. Couldn't make it but it looks like I am headed for Beijing for 3 weeks in May.

[bokfu]

Greetings again
I appreciate your replies to the question at hand. I received a few e-mails concerning this and it seems that most 8 step practitioners believe that it was just some playing with the movements and not a true form. In any case it is nice to be able to pose a question here and get everyone's thoughts on this. Thanks, guys.

[PaulLin]

Finally the yahoo player works. The first is 7 hands and its 2 men form. The postures are like 7* instead of 8 step. The way you can tell is by the angle vs arc. 7* would have head, shoulders, elbows, hands, in 7* angle, and 8 step would have them in arc, as modified by BaGua posture instead. The same goes with the moving pattern. There are alot of moves should have both hands followed up with each other rather then one and then second hand. Such as the opening of the 7 hands form it shows. The root also not emphasised as we would, not enough internal arts element in there as GM Wei would taught, but alot of long boxing elements.

Then it is the small water wheel form. The first opening they showed the bu chuan (punching forward), we have that opened with bung and pi (back fist smash and split fist). They only showed about 1/4 of the whole form. The moves in sequence is the same as we do.

Some where later, there is a few clips of LiPi 2 men form, about 2 moves. Then there are a few moves form the 1st chapter(ZhaiYao), but the moves are not in the order of what we are practicing.

The end of form (shou she) is similar to Tantui rather than the 8 step we are practicing.

Chen KouShin is a genuin student of GM Wei, if he remembered all, he should be able to teach the whole 8 step system.

[drunkendragon]

im sick of it... in the 8-step i do we dont even have xiao fan che "small rolling wheel" all we have is da fan che "large rolling wheel". how can you have one without the other?. they only teach us five sets. i always hear james shyun is not real and he sucks. i'm just sick of it... the more i hear the things you guys have and we don't i start to believe it. if james shyun is fake where do i get REAL MANTIS at? i probably am alienating some friends by saying all of this but c'mon! all we do practice most of the time are things shyun created his self (10 coordinations, the eights, the kicking combos) you don't even get the sets until you reach a high level. my sifu doesn't know weapons!!It just makes me mad I dont know anymore i tried to avoid the whole conflict for almost a year now but i cant take it anymore. what the f$ck do i do? should i go to another school its impossible to find any other mantis guys in buffalo.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by drunkendragon
im sick of it... in the 8-step i do we dont even have xiao fan che "small rolling wheel" all we have is da fan che "large rolling wheel". how can you have one without the other?. they only teach us five sets. i always hear james shyun is not real and he sucks. i'm just sick of it... the more i hear the things you guys have and we don't i start to believe it. if james shyun is fake where do i get REAL MANTIS at? i probably am alienating some friends by saying all of this but c'mon! all we do practice most of the time are things shyun created his self (10 coordinations, the eights, the kicking combos) you don't even get the sets until you reach a high level. my sifu doesn't know weapons!!It just makes me mad I dont know anymore i tried to avoid the whole conflict for almost a year now but i cant take it anymore. what the f$ck do i do? should i go to another school its impossible to find any other mantis guys in buffalo.

FanChe is how ShanTong folks call Water wheels. Only if you have understanding of ShanTong folk language, the language GM Wei speak, then you know. Not rolling wheel.

The full system of GM Wei's 8 steps should included(in teaching order) "7 hands(Chi Shou), Shiao Fa Che, 7 hands 2-men forms, Li Pi, Da Fan Che, Li Pi 2-men forms, Zhai Yao 1 and 2 chapters, Po An 2-men forms, Zhai Yao 3, 4, 5, and 6 chapters." Untill one can practice Zhai Yao 1-6 chapters all at once with ease, then the system is complete. GM Wei also knows many weapon forms, but they are not within the 8 step system. GM Wei's father are responsible in the weapon forms, not GM Feng.

I am not in buffalo, so I can't help you with that. I don't give any other recommendations unless I have to see it for myself to ensure the quality of it. In this case, the 8 step mantis.

Most of the known people who taught 8 step, they started long after my father has already completed the system, so they are not learned together side by side and not know each other closely. And it has been so long my father hasen't contect any one else face to face. We have no way to tell how much others have unless we saw some thing good enough to tell--like Shyun's pictures and words. Also the links in Wutang, the 8 step in there looks too much of long boxing modified, not fit GM Wei's original teaching(it should focus more on the internal arts' requirements).

However, I can tell you who has really learned form GM Wei and who hasen't. If you give me a name, I can tell you what we know in that aspect.

[Stacey]

both one and two man and lots more sets than Paul Lin even realizes exist...their two man forms, all weapon applicable and applications that change based on you depth and knowlege of the characters.


Sifu Cimino is your most direct source. What is there to be sick of? Your learning the stuff that has won in multiple nhb competitions.

8ths kicking combos. Thats not "made up" or fake. Its another way in which the basic material is presented rather than the more traditional haphazard way. This is for more efficient teaching and standardization.


Paul Lin knows some flashy forms...thats true...but there is a lot that he doesn't know that every Sifu under Master Sun does. Most of it has to do with fighting.

Don't let Paul Lin get you down. He's just trying to boost his own name at our expense.

In all fairness how can you know whats real? You can judge a tree by the fruit it bears. Look at his students and students' students'. How about in Iowa and SD where his students students won NHB competitions.

Paul Lin won't fight any of them. He's nothing but a fat coward who hides behind his keyboard.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Stacey
both one and two man and lots more sets than Paul Lin even realizes exist...their two man forms, all weapon applicable and applications that change based on you depth and knowlege of the characters.


Sifu Cimino is your most direct source. What is there to be sick of? Your learning the stuff that has won in multiple nhb competitions.

8ths kicking combos. Thats not "made up" or fake. Its another way in which the basic material is presented rather than the more traditional haphazard way. This is for more efficient teaching and standardization.


Paul Lin knows some flashy forms...thats true...but there is a lot that he doesn't know that every Sifu under Master Sun does. Most of it has to do with fighting.

Don't let Paul Lin get you down. He's just trying to boost his own name at our expense.

In all fairness how can you know whats real? You can judge a tree by the fruit it bears. Look at his students and students' students'. How about in Iowa and SD where his students students won NHB competitions.

Paul Lin won't fight any of them. He's nothing but a fat coward who hides behind his keyboard.

The person who claim to be able to run don't even know how to stand? I have heard that the only MMA competation student has crossed train in many other styles. I suspect nothing in what he used in the tournament would assembled what Shyun has taught.

If you don't mind to hook it up, I don't mind interesting in a open public tournament only with Shyun, since I have got an issue with him. I have no issue with others so far. If he really think he is the real one, and knows many "never-heard-of-materials-that-better-than-the-traditionals" why not prove it?

Tell you one more thing. In 8 step mantis, more doesn't not mean better. In fact, more means worser. Do you even know what the main body of 8 step form--Zhai-Yao-- means? It means the condenced forms of the only importances. Go reaserch more and then think about it. I could have creates 10 times more better quality forms then Shyun form what I know. But more don't means better, it means th opposite. It means the one who favorite more don't really understand the most important things.

There are many other mantis styles out there. They have their forms and techniques links to the 8 step. You can trace them like relatives lines. The extra stuff form Shyun, could they be traced? Or they have nothing to do with other style of mantis? Or they have to claim under Shuai Chaio? Even without the proper foundation support of the Shuai Chaio moves?

Don't think any one would be fallen for this. I certainly woun't buy it. Especially I known Shyun's past.

[BeiTangLang]

K.guys,..ease up & get back to the topic at hand. Beat your chests at each other through personal email; not here.

[MonkSanTe]

Well, if it won in NHB, it must be good. Hahaha, what a character you are Stacy. Just like the article in kung fu qigong was good about Master Sun. Master of the bull whip. Yeah, whatever. Go spend more money on video tapes.

[PaulLin]

There is a e-mail I have recieved, just it might be interesting:

[Hi Paul,

I know and am friends with Joel Sutton (the one who fought in UFC-Shyun's old
student)...I trained with him when we both belonged to Shyun's group. He left
Shyun's federation before I did. Joel had to sign an agreement to give all
money he makes from the UFC fights.

Shyun had him make a tape on the ground fighting techniques Joel learned
while training with other UFC fighters. The tape was made with techniques
divided into 8's...8 arm locks, 8 take down's, etc. Shyun showed this tape at
a shifu camp he held in a branch school at West Palm Beach, FL claiming these
were secret 8 Step techniques he showed to Joel before he left the
Federation. I have a copy of this tape, Joel gave me before I even went to
that camp.

When Joel left, Shyun and his students bad-mouthed him saying Joel stoled the
secret ground techniques and took off. They would say that is reason why
Shyun won't teach you everything until he know's he can trust you. Whenever
anyone leaves, they make up stories to discredit you so the other students
aren't wondering why you left.

Hope this info helps,
George]


I wondered what Joel Sutton would say about this.

[PaulLin]

Is this thread off the chart? I guess none of other words to be added.

[Stacey]

I asked my Sifu about what you were saying and he basically said that you were just verbally masterbating. He went on to tell me to invite you to fight any of the ACMAF Sifus at any time.

I also have a Taiwan source that I have been contacting in regard to the questions you have arisen. Well, he put me at ease and told me something interesting about your familly. I won't say it because I only heard it from one source, but I will ask a question and if anyone else knows, they can be the one to say it.

Why did Lin Chin Fu leave Taiwan?

I can't know one way or the other....I'm just an "underage girl". By the way, my cousin "Lolita" called and wants to start mantis too.

[Stacey]

I asked my Sifu about what you were saying and he basically said that you were just verbally masterbating. He went on to tell me to invite you to fight any of the ACMAF Sifus at any time.

I also have a Taiwan source that I have been contacting in regard to the questions you have arisen. Well, he put me at ease and told me something interesting about your familly. I won't say it because I only heard it from one source, but I will ask a question and if anyone else knows, they can be the one to say it.

Why did Lin Chin Fu leave Taiwan?

I can't know one way or the other....I'm just an "underage girl". By the way, my cousin "Lolita" called and wants to start mantis too.

[Tainan Mantis]

I don't want to ask this fellow about Paul Lin's dad.
But I wouldn't mind talking to him about PM, especially if he has been around as long as Lin Chinfu.

Is this guy a master of PM?
Does he teach PM in Taiwan? If so where? Does he mind talking to me?
Can you say his name in public?

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Stacey
I asked my Sifu about what you were saying and he basically said that you were just verbally masterbating. He went on to tell me to invite you to fight any of the ACMAF Sifus at any time.

I also have a Taiwan source that I have been contacting in regard to the questions you have arisen. Well, he put me at ease and told me something interesting about your familly. I won't say it because I only heard it from one source, but I will ask a question and if anyone else knows, they can be the one to say it.

Why did Lin Chin Fu leave Taiwan?

I can't know one way or the other....I'm just an "underage girl". By the way, my cousin "Lolita" called and wants to start mantis too.

By the words and the tricks you displayed, it is really disgusting to see. From the quality that you have shown I can see what quality your sifu is. Really disgraceful people. I would welcome any of the loyal students form Shyun to a public contest, no problem. But don't wish to paly a private fight trick. When I completed the 8 step system, your sifu has not even heard of what is 8 step.

Try to come up with a supportless personal attack that attempt to shift the attension on the questions that you can't answer? Nice try. Maybe that will buy you some time to come up another supportless and traceless cover up. Tell you what, Shyun was a ship crew, he has a bad habbit of making false claims and not worrie of backing them up, since none knows the places he has been and probably never seen him again. So he made too much false claims that cannot be cover up at all. Just give up on cover that up so it wouldn't make them even worse.

Why did my father leave Taiwan? I happened to have a recomendation letter given form the President Palace office of the 3rd office, it says very clearly of my fathers moving to USA for spreading Chinese Martial Arts. If any one would like to see the copy of that, I can sent it over.

And don't bluff about how strong you are and how much endorance you can do. If you are interested in "lolita" enough to think about it even when you are talking aobut kungfu, you have no chi. You are weak. As much as Shyun is weak, any regular level fighter can easily beat him up. He has no strengh, skills, nor chi. He didn't even know how to set a basic form ideal for chi, not even regular power. From the pictures that he has published, clearly shows that he has no knowledge in real fight.

By the way, the original questions of mine was never responsed. And Shyun better pretend that he never know they were asked. One thing I can say now is that there is never a single full contect tournament existed in Taiwan nationally as Shyun has said, there are only pushing hands, and forms performances contest. My father was involved in the judging and governing of the department in Taiwan. He know about all tournaments that ever took place in Taiwan at that time.

The same sailor bluffing trick that he can play here in the USA all because no one knows him at all here, and you can't trace his background easily. That is why he can't success in Taiwan.

Keep on playing your tricks, it will just make it worse.

[Stacey]

I can't answer for Grandmaster Shyun, I have only seen him at a seminar...but I can tell that you are a coward.

But you keep running and making excuses. My Sifu would be annoyed at me for E-mailing people in Taiwan to ask about you and your father. Well, evidently I found the reason why you crave so much face from Americans. I will leave it at that. Well respected people don't get on internet forums to promote themselves and tell strangers that they can beat up famous people.

You have the invitation,

Anytime anywhere. Start running your fists like you run your mouth and you have a chance at gaining respect.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Stacey
I can't answer for Grandmaster Shyun, I have only seen him at a seminar...but I can tell that you are a coward.

But you keep running and making excuses. My Sifu would be annoyed at me for E-mailing people in Taiwan to ask about you and your father. Well, evidently I found the reason why you crave so much face from Americans. I will leave it at that. Well respected people don't get on internet forums to promote themselves and tell strangers that they can beat up famous people.

You have the invitation,

Anytime anywhere. Start running your fists like you run your mouth and you have a chance at gaining respect.

Got to stop your foolish trick? Not expected my father has a reseme? I dare you to spell out words by words of what exactly you are suspecting the reason of my father's leaving Taiwan and come to USA. You made all things up just to play a bad-moth-trick to hide your lies. Just as every bad-moth-tricks you played on every one out there who acturally knows some truth about Shyun's lies. You cannot do that on us, cause we have nothing you can make up form. Keep your zero-integrity life to yourself! You junks really make me sick.

I don't promote myself that I can defeate any one, I said any decent regular figher, nomatter in boxing, Judo, BJJ, or MuiThai, can beat your GM Shyun up with no problem. He has no body strength, no skill, nothing but empty words. Any fighter can defeat him if he wants to, not just me.

If you want to see me run my fist, you have to hook up a public event. Because with your kind of junk, I don't trust with a bit of the basic human integrity at all. I won't bother to spent a cent to prove my words, it is you that need to prove your claim.

By the way, he is not Chinese Medicine professor, he is no martial arits, he won no tournament, he didn't learn form GM Wei, he can't defend himself to any regular fighter, he only knows how to hide behind his fake claims and bad moth on others.

[PaulLin]

There, why don't any of you anwer these questions:

1. the exact dates of his profession at the Chinese Medicine institute as a Professor.

2. the official name of this institute and address.

3. The years and exact building of which he has won his 5 consecutive championships in Chinese Martial Arts tournaments.

4. The official name of the tournaments and who sponsored them.

5. The exact name of the place he claim GM Wei lived back in Taiwan's mountain.

6. The address his father and family lived back when his father was a rich man.

Give us some reasonable answers that is tracible, I am sure these can't be destroied in fire.