Chi Sao w/gloves??

[fa_jing]

Hi, my friend (non-WC) and I are meeting for training, he will do some chi sao with me as well as sparring. I'm wondering if any of you would share your experiences chi-saoing with gloves on. I think it would be a good idea so that we can tap each other safely. Of course, it may diminish the sensitivity aspect. I am planning to use my thickish bag gloves (no rod,) he will use fingerless MMA gloves.

-FJ

[reneritchie]

I don't mind sparring with gloves (though I prefer without), but haven't done Chi Sao with them (and can't really think of a reason why I would). Gloves are usually to protect the hands when you hit hard, not to protect the thing being hit (ie - why there are bag gloves, even if a bag never complains). If you're both fairly experienced, you should be able to touch without expressing destructive power (faat ging, fajing), and then minor impacts won't have much behind them and likely cause few worries (a mouth guard would probably eliminate most of those).

Rgds,

RR

[fa_jing]

Rene - Well, there's a few reasons why we may try the gloves thing out.

1. Both of us have on interest in sportfighting. This would be closer to sportfighting.

2. We both train alot with gloves, and putting gloves on keeps us loose and relaxed - psychological, perhaps.

3. As my sifu says, "got to look pretty." So marks on the face are not good. Gloves do prevent superficial damage to the opponent, however they do not protect the opponent from deeper force or concussion.

Any time you change up your drill, you may get something new out of it. For instance, perhaps this would encourage the kind of development that you were describing in your recent article, regarding chi sao without the lop sao. Learning to make it work in a new context, is educational.

-FJ

[reneritchie]

Hi,

If you're interested in sportfighting (point sparring or MMA?), I'd recommend doing just that -- spar and don't worry about "Chi Sao" (though your Chi Sao reflexes should help you when connected and under pressure.)

Looking pretty is a concern, but gloves can cause damage all their own. The stitched joints and laces can and do cut (look at a boxer's face sometime).

WRT changing things up, agreed. I try to try as much as possible.

BTW- That article on Lop Sao was by James Roselando.

Rgds,

RR

[jesper]

If you have a WT club nearby, go buy their gloves.

They are fingerles and with a bit of practice really doesnt interfear that much when you do your Chi Sao.

[yuanfen]

Gloves will do zilch for improving your chi sao...but good chi sao reflexes can help you with other things you want to do.
As for the WT gloves- I dont use them- for sparring or chi sao.
Gloves protect the wearer's hands more than the other fellas nose... and they do inhibit the hands depending on the subtlety of your motions.

[anerlich]

What everyone else has said.

Chi sao is a sensitivity drill, so why do it with padding? Keep it under control and restrict your shots to the body or LIGHT open hand to the head.

If you want to do MMA style sparring or competition, spar like that, attributes developed by chi sao will help but the two exercises are qualitatively different.

In my experience fingerless gloves are pretty useless for stopping black eyes and other bruises to the face, we use them but they mainly to lessen the effect of ACCIDENTAL head contact, we try for pulled shots to the head and medium contact to the body. Even so, I've had more black eyes, facial scratches from fingernails and blood noses from "semi-contact" with fingerless gloves than I'd want to count.

AS for keeping pretty, basically this is a poor choice of physical training for supermodels.

if you are really going to be trying to "tap" each other in the head, use proper gloves and headgear.

As Rene said, ALWAYS use a mouthguard.

[TaoBoy]

I'd separate the two forms of training.

If you prefer to use gloves while sparring do so.

But gloves and chi sao? I can't see how that would benefit your training. As anerlich said "Chi sao is a sensitivity drill, so why do it with padding?" You will not get the full benefit with gloves.

[Nat from UK]

I have done lots of experimenting with different types/amounts of protective equipment.

I have personally found the best combination I have used is

Mouth Guard - Protect the teeth

Groin Cup - Good Quality , not just a cricket box tucked in your pants (oops thats briefs for you over the water)

MMA style gloves - Get good quality not Bag Gloves labeled as MMA Gloves

Shin Guards - I use Kwon they stay in place and have an extra rod of padding straight down the centre.

Head Guard - I use a leather thai boxer style one thats protects the cheek bone, avoid the shiny plasticy ones used for Semi Contact sparring, I think they are for when you stub your toe getting on the mat and trip over, because they offer no protection when getting punched.

Body Protection - I have a stripped down chest protector, I had it made for me by a local manufacturer, it doesn't take away much of the impact but I think it helps to attack with force as I am dont pull my attacks as much when my opponent wears his.

the only problem I have found is that my head is a much larger target when I wear my head guard.

This combination allows for grabbing etc but I have never tried it with Chi Sau. If I thought I needed padding to Chi Sau with someone I would find a different someone.

Nat from UK

[williamsremo]

When you turn Chi Sao into a "SPARRING GAME" you lose the chief aim of the training. Chi Sao is for the development of sensitivity. If you use it to compete with one another, you will not be "FEEDING" each other energy and openings to react to, but instead you will be doing your very best not to get hit and trying to hit each other. This will make it no longer chi sao, but a sparring game with chi sao like movements.

[kj]

Just curious how many of you make these chi sau distinctions:
Poon Sau and/or Luk Sau vs. Gor Sau/Gwar Sau ?

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[fa_jing]

This is not to improve the chi sao drill, by any means! It is a means by which I intend to modify the drill to serve our sportfighting goals and to make it simpler for my partner (and me).

OK, let me explain myself better. My training partner doesn't know Wing Chun, he does Taiji, throwing and grappling. So my goal in this exercise isn't really to develop my chi sao per se, for that I would need another WC guy, and yes, it would be best to stick to the original exercise in that case The goal is really to find a common framework where we can work sensitivity, and technique using pulled punches. The gloves would just be there in case of error, and to keep things loose. And don't forget, our goals are different from most of you - we want to get good at fighting with gloves on primarily, with empty-hand proficiency only a secondary consideration.
Aside from this, we have already sparred with medium-to-heavy power and our chosen framework is San Da, using heavy gloves, mouthpiece, groin protection. But, we are not planning to spend our future sessions only on sparring, in fact, sometimes we won't do intense sparring at all - there are times when you are injured or tired or have something coming up like a tournament, and you need to take it easy. So we will do some empty-hand drills, share knowledge, do a little arm-banging, etc. Also, I want to work a sensitivity drill, so I came up with the idea of gloved chi sao. I'll try it out as soon as I can meet up with my friend, and I'll let you know how it goes. It might be tomorrow or it might be next week.

Mostly I was curious whether you guys had tried chi sao with gloves on, you are all responding with a theoretical arguement while I was looking for actual experiences. I have my own reasons for wanting to try this, so the rational you all have provided simply doesn't fit. You are speaking from the perspective of WC vs. WC and having plenty of class time and fellow students, I speak to you as a person who does not have this kind of unfettered access to WC training partners.

peace
-FJ

[anerlich]

I haven't tried this, but if you plan on training to compete with gloves and use a Wing Chun structure then doing Chi Sao with gloves on is probably a good idea. You'll develop a different sort of sensitivity and perhaps even a slightly different structure, but if fighting with gloves on is what you want to get good at (and I'm not saying that's not a worthwhile goal!), go for it.

Like anything else, it's an approximation of real combat, but short of having an unlimited supply of slaves willing to be severly injured as you pummel them full power with shots to joints, vital points, etc., so is any other form of training.

If your friend don't know Wing Chun, you'll be able to smack him a lot if you're doing chi sao as well, at least for a while :)

Maybe post your experiences afterwards?

[Lindley57]

Fa_jing,

Understand why you got the responses you did. Your first post says "...he will do some chi sao with me as well as sparring." This is not correct as your friend does not KNOW Chi sao, so many here may have assumed he did by this statement. If your last reply is understood correctly, you and your friend are trying to meet at a common level to find a method like Chi Sao that you wish to apply more to the sport aspect.

Hence the word "modified" may not be an appropriate term here only because in the Kung Fu world this usually infers something was not right with the original. I think what you want to do is commendable, but it should be called what it is- fa-jing's training tool or something - just not Chi Sao in a Wing Chun community.
Chi Sao is specifically an exercise, the heart of the system, that must be done with another Chi Sao player. Just as the Push Hands of Tai Chi is an exercise that is utilized with another Push Hands player. Two Chi Sao players are like two fire hoses pointed at each other. The forward energy of the rolling creates the shape of water from one partner to another. What happens when one of those hoses come off center? That person "gets wet", which is the successful player's ability to enter at an opening. Chi Sao is not ONLY about sensitivity, but should not be confused with being a "drill" either. Chi Sao has rules and focuses to teach us things through this set. Some of the variations of Chi Sao are blind fold and long range Chi Sao.
I think your last post was more clear. Good luck with finding some common ground with your friend.

[fa_jing]

Hi. Yes, it's not really wing chun chi sao. I'm just taking the rules of the "game" of chi sao as a framework to do some controlled engagement, apart from and less intense than free-sparring. In the process, I may end up showing my friend some actual chi sao. Actually, we did meet on Tuesday and got started on this. I started him out doing some Dan chi sao, then I showed him the roll and the "8-step" chi sao drill, all without gloves. He was impressed by the details of our style that I was explaining to him. We are both fascinated by the other's methods because they are so different from one another. He had a hard time adapting to the drills but eventually got the feel for it. I could see why SLT is taught before Chi Sao. Then we put on the gloves and rolled. This was good because he could forget about the details a little. The only thing is, he would lose the tan to bon rolling action and just raise his tan sao up and down. I said "stop that, you're taking away my advantage" :) So he started rolling his arm correctly and we got started. We tried a few movements, he was able to extend his bon arm into a high punch in one motion that got me a couple times, even though I could feel it and my fook was pressed against his arm I didn't exert enough pressure with the fook once he made his move. Other than that, I noticed that he did not guard his center like we do, it was relatively easy to spread his hands apart to create an opening. Unfortunately our session was cut short by a bum who began trying to work us. We sent him off, but it appeared that he was casing us and was gathering help to try to roll us. We used our mind fu to discern his intentions and packed up our stuff and left. Next time we'll practice in a better area and for longer, I couldn't find a parking space that day and we ended up behind a railway station. Well anyway, I'll give another update after I work with my friend some more.

-FJ

[EnterTheWhip]

Pointless, pointless, pointless...

It might be time to reflect on what chi sau is actually about.