Different openings of BM forms?

[dezhen2001]

Hey guys, recently theres been a thread about the "different beginnings in choy lay fut forms". I know in wing chun, that most different lineages (from yip man) have pretty much the same opening for Siu Lim Tao. Both hands cross and mark the centeline top and bottom, with 2 punches and huen sau to withdraw the fists. Then the form begins proper. It got me thinking...

I have been lucky enough to see some Bak Mei before, and as you know i respect and am interested in the system. I have seen the Jik Bo from the Cheung Bing Lum lineage. If i remember correctly i will try to explain the opening (sorry if you already know what i mean)...from the palm heel on fist position, the left hand does some sort of arc outwards to his left hand side and comes back in. Then arms open out into something that looks like a double bil jee but with arms angled outwards. The right hand is an upside down bil jee (palm up) when the left one is extended. Then from here it was a bil jee or punch next (can't remember clearly), which continues until the end of the room/park/pavement etc.

I remember seeing Jackie Chan a while ago on a UK program called TFI Friday (I'm a Jackie fan but who isn't ;)). After the interview he was asked to do a demonstration of some Kung Fu. Theres a link of the video clip of Jackie here (http://www.aous41.dsl.pipex.com/JackieChan/TFIFriday.htm) (i just stuck it up so u could see what i'm trying to explain :p).

He does the palm heel-on-fist salute, then flips his wrists and ends up doing the bil jee with the left hand. Also the upside down bil jee with the right - the same hand positions as the other opening i have seen, but without the kinda out-in-out movement of the left hand to get to this position. Now if i remember correctly (from a previous thread), it was mentioned before that Jackie learned some Bak Mei from a Sifu in London of the Cheung Beng Fat line? Is that where the difference comes from? Or just Jackie forgetting things? :D

Hey, how does YKM start their Jik Bo? Is it the same as either of those mentioned (badly) before? I'm expecting a "buy the book" answer :D (I hope that side of things is all going well for ya mate!).

It's interesting to see the interpretation and diversity of any skill, don't ya think? :)

david

edit: sorry bout the quality of the video clip!

[mantis108]

Hi Dezhen2001,

You are most likely talk about the begger hand. After saluting the "brothers" from 5 lakes and 4 seas, you ask them for money. ;) :D

Seriously, it has a few applications. One of them being a elbow breaking move [ that's with the countering action of both left face down palm and the right face up palm]. If the person counters the elbow break with his left (you are trying to break his right hand punch), then you bil Jee (left) to the eyes. As he blocks/parry with his left, you unleash your pheonix eye punch to the solar plex. 1-2-3 done. There are others combos but this one is the easiest and you won't miss. So...

Regards

Mantis108

PS disclaimer : no person of Bak Mei style including Mantis108 will be responsible if personal and/or property injury and/or damage of any kind and/or form with the use of techniques described within this thread.

[fiercest tiger]

hmmm mantis if the guy was trying push you maybe, but a punch i doubt you could catch the punch and break the arm. I have a different method for yum yeurng sau move attacking major dim mak points on the neck using ying and yang theories.

FT :)

[Sui]

oh my god gave another one of your secrets out.lol

i beg to differ of course about the arm break?have you not up the level yet mantis 108?
e.g fu-jow ;even with one arm,cut across centerline then you don't need to punch for you have already"bui" to the throat[at 45% to the wind pipe]

p.s i took your advice to seek a teacher,and you were right,they wouldn't except me for them fallin on the floor to fast.lol....i'll show you if you want;) but you may not remember?:)

p.s your freind md is back too.hahahaha:D

[meltdawn]

Well I'm back
dunna nunna nunna nanna nunna nunna nanna nunna
fix your bent antennae tune it in and then I'm gonna
enter in and up under your skin like a splinter

can y'all get past the elbow break and mebbe hesitate don't focus on the hate relate to the enter wise up it ain't always a center?

bubster, am i down wit dis, dawg?

lay 'em don, smack 'em, yack 'em, coooold gots ta be.

PS: ya diss this yam yeurng, ya be dissin all y'all's teachers. this goes to YOU (rhyme wit you).

[mantis108]

*SIGH*

"i beg to differ of course about the arm break?have you not up the level yet mantis 108?"

I am pretty sure your level is beyond me. [see below]

"e.g fu-jow ;even with one arm,cut across centerline then you don't need to punch for you have already"bui" to the throat[at 45% to the wind pipe] "

If you care to elaborate, may be I can see what exactly you are trying to come across. Which hand is doing what? 45%? power? Now that's amazing for you have the ability to release exact percentage of power. BTW, you seemed to be very confident about your own speed and that your opponent is a standing dummy with human flesh (re: non resisting opponent) which of course are the best techniques found on video tape (re: Online courses).

I am also sure that one day the internet conversation will replace all McDojo and McKwoon masters' teaching. So good luck in your online MA education.

Once again, I don't think there are secrets just different details for my learning is from real Kung Fu folks who share their knowledge in person with me. My stuff is not your taste; that's fine by me. You are the only who knows it all; that's fine by me also. We all know that all you want is people to acknowledge you and your might wit. I hear you. You troll; therefore, you exist. So, troll on. ;)

Mantis108

[fiercest tiger]

Have we got the same technique here from the form? I dont know if we are speaking about the same move. i have seen the arm break perfomed, but kinda hard to do when the elbow is facing down, so i dont use this technique for the arm break or (Kum La) TYPE. There for i use it to drain the energy of your opponent and hit the neck, using the yin and yang principles of striking using dim ma and dim yut knowledge, not the breaking yin and yang knowledge!

We all see techniques differently and at different levels of skill, i dont believe you are wrong just i wouldnt use your technique as i think it wasnt ment for what you have said. Please dont take this the wrong way!

take care
Garry

[Sui]

45 degrees is what i intended,but couldn't find the symbol:rolleyes:

i know my level is beyond yours and i will show like i've already prompted.

cut in on the left side,left hand bui,fu jow right attack wind pipe at 45 degrees.this is instead of the low level arm break where like f.t tells you that the opponants arms are facing downwards.

like i already stated low level especially from some one like you of all the learning you've had.lol

it is you who pretends to know all yet you print low level techniques,and if i'm a troll then why "still" waist your time in writing.just dissappear again.[northern forum]

any time you want to meet up let me know i would realy like to see your bullsh!t work on me.lol

p.s if you don't know the openings on how to improve give us a holla,i could always teach you.lol

sui your freind mantis 108 legs.hahahahaha

[mantis108]

FT,

If I hear you correctly, you are saying that presumably your opponent has a "sunk" elbow [has elbow strength] with his punch. This is not unlikely for many of the southern close range styles. You perfer to address your concern with your theory is not wrong, it is just different. As I have stated there more than one way to deal with situations. I was addressing a incoming right punch attack and you suggested also a pushing/shoving situation. That's fine. The same hand that I suggested can be a "Sok Sau" instead of a break if the opponent indeed has elbow strength. It can be ying (drains energy) as well as yang (breaking), paraphrasing what you were saying. BTW, I don't doubt your skill since you have a clear profile. It is great that you share your opinion as honestly and openly as possible. :)

Best regards

Sui,

It is clear to me that you have but one thing in mind. That is to let people believe that you in fact have skill and know what you are talking about. The fact that you have never been able to answer someone's question directly and to the point shows that you basically build on others' words and have little to no understanding of basic Kung Fu. I deliberately put in the following up moves to the technique that is at hand (the begger hand) to see if you have solid background in the style. If you have you would have addressed the begger hand like FT did. Instead you went on and on about what high level skill over me using exactly all the material and the supposed dynamics of the line of thinking that's been said between me and FT. Your trick on talking stuff that seems to be high level (imaginary at best) would work on novice who long for it. All the good hands know Kung Fu is in the basic. You should have addressed the basic first if you were any good at all. So point, set and match over for you.

As for meeting me in person, those who have been on the KFO long enough and have been paying attention (thank you to those who support me) to what I have been doing know that I have a real visit from Tainan Mantis who is also a real practitioner on the KFO. We spent 11 days doing KF at my store. This is a KNOWN FACT and REAL EVENT. I have learned and benefited much from him. If there is real Kung Fu, I will learn as best I can. I have learned from my students as well (ie Ground grappling, knife skills, archery,etc...). So learning "in person" is not a problem for me as long as the real person has real skill to show me. Otherwise it is but a waste of my time. I have been trying to be patient with you, FRIEND. But you just don't see that as saving face for you. I know it's impossilbe for you to stick to sharing what you really know because you really have nothing to share but a few jokes. Anyway, you continue on with your imaginations.

Mantis108

[fiercest tiger]

Indeed Sok Sau wuld work! Basics are drilled in class, but i work on lots of different senarios in theway people punch and see if the techniques would work.

Its hard to get a lock on when the opponent uses chum boy, chum jeurng and puts a whole new prespective on techniques. Im trying to do some mpegs for my site but they are too long and take up too much space, do you know how to capture and edit and format for the website?

Ill be having technique work shops ands other training material on my site as well. Then you guys can pick the living SH!T out of my skills...hehehehe but its all good.:)

later FT

Sui,

I know you would love to see the FT in action.;) as in kung fu BABY!

:p

[dezhen2001]

Thanks for the info guys... :)

david

[Buby]

Lay it down, bend it, smack it, flip it, rub it down...Ohh nooooo.:D

Yeah, I'm a freaky d!cky. I've always wondered how hot candle wax feels in Florida? I mean its hot all year around. At least here in NY we have cold winters. Cold winters + Hot candle wax = :) :eek: :cool: Ya know!

Melty, ya not doing to bad. Not bad at all.:)

Buby

[Bolt]

I am obviously not as advanced as you folks. That hot wax move is one I have not learned yet.

[bong]

Lay it down, bend it, smack it, flip it, rub it down...Ohh nooooo.

SHAKE IT UUUUUUUUUUUUUUPPPPP!!!!

Do you listen to Ferrall in the morning on WNEW?????

[meltdawn]

Buby :
"I've always wondered how hot candle wax feels in Florida?"

Depends on where. Or so I've heard. At band camp.

FT :
"Its hard to get a lock on when the opponent uses chum boy, chum jeurng and puts a whole new prespective on techniques. "

Duck and cover. Or one of the two. Or so I've heard. Also, band camp. Different band.

[fiercest tiger]

You may just duck right into my knee! ouch.....:)

If you slap it, flip it and rub it like that , yeah gotta be black! ICE CUBE:)

[Yum Cha]

Mantis, I like the elbow break, I can see how it could be integrated,
Sui, I like the bui and ying jau, I can see how it could be integrated,

We are however much more boring in our interpretation. Must be my low level...:(

I have always seen it as an opening of the center gate of an opponent coming at you, followed by the side and front attacks, performed as a combination - open their guard, bik bu and drop into a side bui choi, bic bu into Sak Choi.

The lesson for me is in the stance and weight change, hips and shoulders, and the impact on the power.

If the opening were there it could be many things from the shoulders out, a push, a strike, a capture.

I believe lots of groups make the bui choi and the sak choi both in forward stance, whereas we do a front opening, side bui then forward to punch, pressing all the time with bik bu.

In gau bo twi, we do it both ways, in jik bu, side and front alternate.

PS - that Jackie Chan clip does look like the hand crossing over start, but then moves into just generic stuff for a couple of seconds.

[Sui]

mantis 108-still ignorant[2nd rate]

meltdawn-still a sheep

yum cha-needs a compass


sui-still laughing

:)

[fiercest tiger]

Sui,

stop it! :D

[meltdawn]

FT :
Read slower. "Or one of the two."

Sui :
Baaaaaaaaaa. So, you like sheep do ya?

[fiercest tiger]

Look ill come there and give you a serve! You dont want that do you?

:)

FT

[Buby]

Na, what she wants is the Bubsta.:D


Bong,
Sorry bro, I don't listen to the radio in the mornings. That would be a very dangerous thing, for I'll be amped the whole day. :)

Buby

[meltdawn]

FT :

Like you need an invitation. :)

Both of you, take a nap. I'm in training.

[fiercest tiger]

You better start training extra hard because when the big fella hits flaridah its all over 4 you. Then you become my student!;)

Buby,

You can have her bro, im done with this one!:)

Sui,

I really think you and melty deserve each other, just maybe i can set you both up, hmmm what about lava life?:D Because you both do hakka, and melty loves asian men, well so she says!:) So sui ill set it up baby..:cool:

Melty,

you have half of KFO chasing you, im jealous!!:mad: But who is your sugar daddy, really? ;)

[Sui]

"Sui :
Baaaaaaaaaa. So, you like sheep do ya?"

well,do i like you?

"Both of you, take a nap. I'm in training."

md you need it:D

"I really think you and melty deserve each other, just maybe i can set you both up, hmmm what about lava life? Because you both do hakka, and melty loves asian men, well so she says! So sui ill set it up baby.. "

hell yes!ooooww don't hurt me,and don't eat my shoes?bbaaaaaa off yourself:D :D :D .who's the sheep dog???hahahahaha

[Yum Cha]

A compass? Yes, tempting your recommendation is. But, what would the compass tell me?

Would it give me a direction to travel, or simply remind me that there are different ways I can go from where I am?

Practical and theoretical – can the compass tell which takes you in the right direction? Can you use a compass in the dark?

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t have answers, oh no, just questions…

[Sui]

there are many different types of compass's to wich one is specific.but it seems you need the one you talk to find the one i talk?lol


direction???-the choice my freind would lead you to canada wich is safer.:)

[mantiskilla]

:D

h
________
Bmw 328 (http://www.bmw-tech.org/wiki/BMW_328)

[Yum Cha]

Yes, different compasses pointing in different directions...

I have a few brothers in Canada, besides the KFO players. It would be interesting. Have you been to Canada or are you going on reputation?

Safety? What could a simple Kau La Sak Choi donkey like me ever fear from where Pak Mei would lead me?

or, are we talking about karma?

[Sui]

canada?a wonderful place to wich i wouldn't vistit in a million years,but there is balance where ever i visit?

"Kau La Sak Choi donkey"fear?many things"poisoned apples"for a start and also there's mantis 108 legs

do you want to talk karma?for i would say day-ja vue?

[Yum Cha]

You touched on a good topic Canada. It does indeed seem there is much more of the quality art there per capita than "elsewhere". Why is that?

I have lots of friends in Canada, and I would indeed be happy to consider Mantis108 one, but I would not presume to do so uninvited. I'm not sure he likes the company I keep...<grin>.

They say the most fearsome of all warriors came from the frozen wastelands... Vikings, Huns, Canadian Hockey Fans....

Anyway, the great thing about being so simple minded is that it is the common repetitive activities, such as picking sour from sweet apples for my tea don't present much of a challenge. In fact, it is the sorting through the two that makes the task enjoyable.

Which brings us back to Karma...and the topic of doom and redemption. Have we been here before? These are matters of the soul, not of the hand.

[jonlucas]

I don't know if my response has any relation to this topic (especially since I'm too lazy to read all the posts in this thread). I only know that there are alot of incentives for Chinese and other Asians to move to Canada. I forget what those incentives are. I visited Toronto recently and saw a large Chinese community. That might explain the "talent per capita" theory.

[Sui]

ahhh yummy i see but i think mostley canadians are sh!te at k.f.to which the soul does connect on fine points.
i also understand why you and f.t don't learn together.maybe one is honest and the other not?

how would the balance in karma arise?also what do you want from kung fu?


cheers sui,now i will drink from which you pour?

[Yum Cha]

Well, this thread rears it's head again.

You asked one question, "How does the balance in Karma arise" and I think you already know that.

Why do I train Kung Fu? For balance. Perhaps for the same reason you write poetry?

Do you know many martial artists that are musicians or artists?

Cheers

[fiercest tiger]

G DUDE, you really know how to exit stage left! whats up with you man?

:)FT

Get back to gardening..hehehe i lup 4 u!

[Sui]

yummy if i did then i wouldn't of asked?eg how many perspectives are there in this subject?

sorry,but i asked what do you want from k.f not why do you train k,f?there is a difference.

"musicians or artists?"what is the essence?or what else?

f.t,batman had trouble with the coin tosser
:) you'd be the coin tosser of course.lol

[Yum Cha]

Hi Sui,
I do want "balance" from my Kung Fu. Not physical balance, but that comes of good training too, naturally, but balance in my life, balance of the different forces in my soul, the balance that brings peace of mind. This is an emotional and metaphysical balance I am refering to, perhaps it has something to do with Karma, perhaps not.

So, "how would the balance in Karma arise?" You mentioned perspective, and you are right. There are as many perspectives as there are people.

I know that only I can feel my own balance of yang, yin, good, evil, fullfillment, failure, and on, and on. Only I can sense the path to redemption, the return to balance, the way to fulfilment.

From my perspective, only you could know your own way as well. I did not mean for it to sound dismissive.

How would you keep your balance?

[Sui]

hi yum,the path to redemption???hmmm,of what?religeon?"the return to balance, the way to fulfilment"and to "sense"?with the 6th sense?

so fulfilment=yang and failure=yin?

ok,yum is there such a thing as[without complicating this subject]
a universal perspective?through your perspective that is?

"How would you keep your balance?"
well,in my experience there is no way of keeping your balance and from time to time you must fall,but to get back on the knife edge is a choice to which destiny/fate balances upon that.
to balance or not to balance is to let go or throw "caution to the wind"[realizing the wind circles the soul?]...........to which empty is a key to no destination?

[Yum Cha]

Originally posted by Sui
hi yum,the path to redemption???hmmm,of what?religeon?"the return to balance, the way to fulfilment"and to "sense"?with the 6th sense?

>>>>>> Some people choose religion, some have a 6th sense, what is your point.

so fulfilment=yang and failure=yin?

>>>>> Not so, not all of the balancing forces in the universe are on the same axis. No more than sweet and sour equal hot and cold.

ok,yum is there such a thing as[without complicating this subject]
a universal perspective?through your perspective that is?

>>>>>> Universal perspective? Universal human condition, universal cultural imperitives, universal psychological mythology. Yes and No. In everything universal there is the unique, but in the collective unique, the uniqueness is universal. I'm really more interested in your perspective though, and how you see your Karma/

"How would you keep your balance?"
well,in my experience there is no way of keeping your balance and from time to time you must fall,but to get back on the knife edge is a choice to which destiny/fate balances upon that.
to balance or not to balance is to let go or throw "caution to the wind"[realizing the wind circles the soul?]...........to which empty is a key to no destination?

>>>>>>> Interesting, are you saying that balance can only be achieved in the moment? That the rest of the time one is off balance (fallen) and searching for the force to bring back the balance (climbing back onto the knife edge). Yes, I will agree with that. The search for balance is a journey, not a destination.

>>>>>>>>> Is nothingness the perfect balance, or the perfect void?

[Sui]

so yum,with this discussion will it bring us back to the start of the thread"different openings of BM forms?"

my point?sorry i'm tryin to comprehen"redemption" for you and how and what it is through your eyes?

sorry but i totally disagree,i believe that they all do balance on the "same" axis.maybe this is the difference in your opening to me?

Universal perspective?how the hell did i know you were gonna coplicate things?thanks very much.lol
i was hoping you were going to say "love","war" and even "peace" are all examples of a universal perspective,are you "here"?
p.s karma has no perspective;)

life is a string of moments how well you observe,but to "search for the force"to regain balance i'm not familiar with.is it the redemption you talk of?

even to search for the balance is not comprehended for my world,i'm sorry.

"Is nothingness the perfect balance, or the perfect void?"
i wouldn't say that it does though many interprtate this way,do you?
i believe there is no such as "perfect balance"

is to reach the"nothingness" the end goal?then why not just believe it and it would be so?

[Buby]

Check your PM. I think there is something wrong with it.

Drop me an e-mail at work.

Take care,
Buby

[Yum Cha]

Hi Sui,

A good opening requires a good stance. Just like a good Mo Se. But, why do we do Mo Se?

Am I correct in understanding that you see life as a series of moments, each unique, each an end unto itself? All in one, one in all, being and nothing in concert? Are you a Buddhist?

Western philosophy speaks of free will and self-determination –vs- undeniable destiny.

But if each moment is unique, what about our wisdom and our ancestors, how do we carry them within us? Or do the immortals guide us?

You say you don’t believe in perfect balance, and I will agree with you. No more than there is perfect Love, or perfect Hatred or perfect devotion. One simply aspires to an objective and in the pursuit finds the rewards.

Perspective, I disagree, by definition, perspective means to look at. Do you see your own apples as do your donkeys? Do they taste the same? Perspective is one of the undebatable unique things we as individual human beings possess.

Redemption? I think of the positive and negative forces in this world, I believe in putting positive energy into whatever I do, however I am not always successful. This is an ethical issue. Your karma is your balance sheet. Your doom, or your redemption can be another perspective.

Religion, another one of our “universal” perspectives, yet the religious experience is profoundly different to different people around the world, and different within each religious group to be sure. Nevertheless, therein lie a perspective of doom and redemption, but not the only, nor the most interesting.

Reincarnation likewise, to advance to a higher level of consciousness or to digress…

[Sui]

hello yum,

ah but mo-si does not open for anybody,and in my experience openings are of not mo-si.i'm not sure why we do mo-si only that it exsists?

you are correct,but sorry i'm not buddhist yet.

true very true.i saw a documentry about mosquitos and how they mutate to western medicine and the parasites they carry killing many humans,they tryied to kill off the mozzys with a pesteside and it worked for a while.then the mozzys resurfaced and now they look to the chinese.the chinese use the woodworm for over 2000 yrs and has proved itself,where the west has to keep coming up with new medicines[couple of decades] b/c of the way the mozzys adapt.why?

there is no harm in finding whats true,as long as you can accept resposbility to our actions?

rewards?from who?

only by definition.there is a perspective of thinking,believing,knowing etc
so you are saying no you don't believe in a universal perpective?

so there is a wrong and a right when perpective is the issue?

a good point so who is responsible for this[religion]

could you teach me more on you views of re-incarnation and a higher level of consciousness or to digress…?

intresting thanks

sui:)

[Yum Cha]

Originally posted by Sui
hello yum,
>>>> Hello Sui,

ah but mo-si does not open for anybody,and in my experience openings are of not mo-si.i'm not sure why we do mo-si only that it exsists?

>> We do mo-si to rid the community of evil and bad luck. Not just for a big feast afterward...<grin>

you are correct,but sorry i'm not buddhist yet.

true very true.i saw a documentry about mosquitos and how they mutate to western medicine and the parasites they carry killing many humans,they tryied to kill off the mozzys with a pesteside and it worked for a while.then the mozzys resurfaced and now they look to the chinese.the chinese use the woodworm for over 2000 yrs and has proved itself,where the west has to keep coming up with new medicines[couple of decades] b/c of the way the mozzys adapt.why?

>>> Yes, the arrogance of western thinking may take many lifetimes, or many lives to find the balance of the way.

there is no harm in finding whats true,as long as you can accept resposbility to our actions?

rewards?from who?

>>>> From where an individual gets their rewards is a strong insight into their character, and their perspective.

only by definition.there is a perspective of thinking,believing,knowing etc
so you are saying no you don't believe in a universal perpective?

so there is a wrong and a right when perpective is the issue?

>>> Perspective is one of the things that makes us unique, and there are many other things. Not all differences are right or wrong, many are simply the variety that makes life what it is. But, yes, I will say I believe in right and wrong, but not perhaps as do you. Universal uniqueness? <grin>

a good point so who is responsible for this[religion].

>>>>> Ah yes, religion, one of the most universal perspectives humanity has. Have you read much C.G Jung? I'm an infant in this arena.

could you teach me more on you views of re-incarnation and a higher level of consciousness or to digress…?

>>>> Reincarnation I was using simply as an example or illustration. The afterlife is not an issue to me. What will be will be no matter what is the truth. Seeking this truth is like feeding a hunger that can never be qunched from my point of view. The promise of an afterlife should have no bearing on how virtuously you pursue this life you are living. There is no "test run."

[/B]>>>> As for higher conciousness, If I ever find it, I'll send you a PM.

intresting thanks
>>> and, thank you.

sui:)

[Sui]

hi yum
you call the westerners thinking "arrogance",oh but why?are you not a thinking westerner?


i wouldn't call that reward at the least i'm afraid.

"variety"?to rid bordom perhaps?to become less stagnant,as in to flow perhaps?

"Universal uniqueness?"maybe,a connection between 2 gods?does this sound bad or wrong?

sorry don't read to many books,can't you tell?i prefere to read one's experiences of perpective ;)

it may not be an issue however there is the enevitable the sign clearly marked"?"
so we do not need discpline?and can do what ever we choose?"live for today"? kind of stuff?

"higher conciousness" c'mon you got me intrigued:)

[fiercest tiger]

same question!:)

FT ahhhhhhh

[Sui]

hi f.t glad you can make it.intresting isn't it?

do you salute everyone who fights with you?;)

[fiercest tiger]

Nah never salute before a fight, i skip the foreplay! lol:D

but i have got some fighting techniques using the salutation.

do you salute before you fight?;)

FT

[Sui]

well f.t there you have your answer short but sweet:) btw yum and i are in the middle of something,if you care to join then that would be great.


sui

[Bolt]

How would you guys use the salutaion as a fighting technique.


Obviously one does not salute before a (real) fight. There are several applications for compnents of our opening salute. Is this the same salute in YKM ?

[fiercest tiger]

the bak mei salute is the same as the ykm yes!:)

[fiercest tiger]

No, i'll leave you 2 love birds alone.

All i am trying to do is make my next life easier i'll say that, but i doubt it will be.:( Is there a heave for a G?

Take care
FT:)

[Yum Cha]

Originally posted by Sui
hi yum
you call the westerners thinking "arrogance",oh but why?are you not a thinking westerner?

>>>> Though I may be a westerner, I don't solely concern myself with western phylosophy, that should be reasonably obvious to you by now.

i wouldn't call that reward at the least i'm afraid.

>>>> Naturally, one man's reward is another mans curse.

"variety"?to rid bordom perhaps?to become less stagnant,as in to flow perhaps?

>>>>> indeed, variety, the essence of humanity, beyond petty value judgements.

"Universal uniqueness?"maybe,a connection between 2 gods?does this sound bad or wrong?

>>>> Bad? Wrong? I'm not in the business of preaching. A connection between two gods? Two separate but balanced powers, like yang and yin? "Gods" are forces of one form or another, two in harmony or dissonance? You tell me. At face value, not hard to grasp. Of course a "God" may mean many different things to many people. The one God, The Trinity, The Guardian Angels....

sorry don't read to many books,can't you tell?i prefere to read one's experiences of perpective ;)

>>>> I see. I'll agree that books are only commentary, real life is much more interesting. Should one drink from the brook, not the bottle or the glass, as at each stage the water takes on the virtues of its handlers?

>>>> Is a slave boy who drinks from the mountain stream any less thirsty than a great master that drinks from golden goblets at a guilded table in a great hall? Some thirsts can be quenched, some cannot.

it may not be an issue however there is the enevitable the sign clearly marked"?"
so we do not need discpline?and can do what ever we choose?"live for today"? kind of stuff?

>>>>> Discipline? Discipline to do what? Maintain a Balance?

"higher conciousness" c'mon you got me intrigued:)

>>>> Perhaps a kind of higher conciousness might be to move beyond concerns for the self and look only at the concerns of the family, community, or others in general, to bring virtue into your daily pursuits.

>>>> Or perhaps it might be a conciousness that looks only into self and in transcending the boundries placed upon yourself by your humanity. To eliminate your "base" instincts and needs in favour of meditative pursuit of nothingness, and yet the cosmos.

>>>> What do you think?

[Sui]

but you have at least experienced western filosophy have you not?is it so simple as to forget/cast out to regain a more applealing pholosophy?what i mean to pick and choose?

so your reward maybe my curse?how intresting.then great minds do/don't think a like?

variety,indeed,i agree whole heartedly then why do i act as i do?

is preaching not to your likeness?then how will you teach your children?you connect quite well ying/yang to which energy resides all,wether positive or negative.

to drink?are they your answers to give and from whenst are those writings?to experience all the ways to drink would be foolish and a waste of time for are you to quench your thirst or to play with the fish?

"higher conciousness"i think i understand you?
what would i know to ponder on some areas shuch as this?but to think ah?only a diagram to which the circles ripple inwards and not outwards?the largest circle represents bieng?the 2nd represents the way to look beyond?and so on and so fourth.....?

where are you taught is the cosmos?and what do you think?and what do believe and most of all what are you to realize?

sui
:)

[fiercest tiger]

what is your belief after death? are you considered more daoist or buddhist in your pholosphies or a mixture?

The sound of 2 feet clapping! FT

[Sui]

f.t that is to direct for me to answer hear i'm sorry but i will say this,not all taoist believe the same and not all buddhist believe the same to which each meditative state holds many perspectives.soon they dissapear like everything else to an emptyness that we haven't yet to experience yet for the plentysome of conciousness?

do you agree?

sui:)

[fiercest tiger]

so you would say to go to a higher plane/realm if you have non attatched like an enlightenment?

Or your energy goes back to some type of source where it came from?:)

FT

The sound of one ball slapping!;)

[Sui]

before i answer i'd like yum to root,for this maybe good for us,and both questions are/have a uniqueness,cheers f.t i knew you had some part to play and this is only a step not a conclusive state.


how intresting and you both live in australia.

[fiercest tiger]

They dont have a conscious do they? lol just kidding mate!

The sound of one foot walking!:p
FT

[Yum Cha]

Originally posted by Sui
but you have at least experienced western filosophy have you not?is it so simple as to forget/cast out to regain a more applealing pholosophy?what i mean to pick and choose?

>>>> One of the great things about the human mind is its ability to adapt, reason and build concepts. Philosophy, a poor term for what we are talking about. Thought is not a static thing. There are commonalities, relationships, perhaps even some "universal" concepts that cross all the boundries. The study is just different peoples interpretation of the same phenomena - life. All who live have a relevence. And, spititualism, like Kung Fu, has novices, journey-men and masters, defined by their knowledge and experience in that realm. And as a novice, I try to open my mind to as many ideas as I can.

>>>> I spent my youth arguing with teachers, now perhaps I've the patience to learn.

so your reward maybe my curse?how intresting.then great minds do/don't think a like?

>>> No, I don't thinks so. I don't know. Some yes, perhaps some no.

variety, indeed ,i agree whole heartedly then why do i act as i do?

>>> Perhaps for the same reason I engage you <grin>. Free internet access....

is preaching not to your likeness?then how will you teach your children?you connect quite well ying/yang to which energy resides all,wether positive or negative.

to drink?are they your answers to give and from whenst are those writings?to experience all the ways to drink would be foolish and a waste of time for are you to quench your thirst or to play with the fish?

>>> Sometimes a little fishing is good for the soul.... Hard to hold the pole in my hooves though...

"higher conciousness"i think i understand you?
what would i know to ponder on some areas shuch as this?but to think ah?only a diagram to which the circles ripple inwards and not outwards?the largest circle represents bieng?the 2nd represents the way to look beyond?and so on and so fourth.....?

>>>> Everything in nothing, nothing is everything, the integraton? And what comes from it? Peace? Balance? or is there more?

where are you taught is the cosmos?and what do you think?and what do believe and most of all what are you to realize?

>>>> I'm not up on the stars. Tell me something interesting about them.

sui
:)

Hey FT,
Would you care to give us a short description of the difference in the Taoist and Buddist view on the Attainment? Right and wrong even?

Perhaps this relates to the fundamental differences between a buddhist and a Taoist martial artist, would you think?

[fiercest tiger]

I see Buddhist as attaining enlightment through love and compassion and having given up attatchment etc similar to Daoist although i see daoist people are more for the people and family when buddhist is more on cultivating themselves for there next life. If that makes sense?:)

Usually all daoism and buddhism is mixed with each other or some other philosophies. like a mixed bag of lollies to get you on the path. No different to any other religion in ways as they have there on path for enlightenment or next level they go to. I like Daoist and buddhist(Tibetan) but i have to many attachments and my path is crooked so ill be here for some time yet, but i have seen the path!:) I hope my journey through the death realm not a horrible suffering one as i have done many bad things and regret some stuff i have done.:(

Peace
FT

:)

[EAZ]

Hi,

IMVHO

I might add to what FT said concerning this subject that, buddhism essentially views our human existence as a river to be crossed, to get it over with, and wishes to transcend this reality for another more purer form, where illusion is removed; Taoism, while sharing much of the idea that what we see temporal and thus false in many respects as our ego deforms it, is focused on a concept of immanence, that their are layers of reality and that wisdom comes from observing reality, not cutting oneself off from it.

But of course many strands of Buddhism say this as well.

I think that the biggest difefrence between the two are that for instance both seek enlightenment, but Mahayana wants enlightenment through transendence, leaving this world which is equated with suffering, where as Taoism seeks to aleviate suffering by mastering the rules of the game so to speak and become immortal, unaffected by the law of cause and effect that is the source of existence and life and death.

Personally, while Mahayana and Theraveda Buddhism (which I know more about) are rock solid in terrms of theory and understanding, I somehow do not completely agree with the idea of hitting the eject button in one go and just deny my existence here. Taoism is more human, accepting perhaps at the basic level the fact that I am here as opposed to not (being here) and so understanding and living in this world is given a bit more importance.

Then again the few high level Taiost people I have met and all my readings tell me that a high level Taoist does not really care for society and the material world and seems to arrive at the same conclusions as the wise Buddhist.

But the danger of Taoism, and its lack of cannon and standardisation as opposed to Buddism is that you can get side tracked as there are as many kinds of Taoism as there are Taoists and I know many a Westerner who is is simply playing a mind game with himself as he "cultivates Chi", reads books on "orgasm through intercourse" etc. The fact that Buddhism does not require things like "microcosmic orbit" etc. seems to proove this point. Everyone prefers beleiving that energy is coursing through there body and doing fancy Chi Kung exercices than sitting down facing a wall and observing their respiration like in chan buddhism.

Thus the danger in my mind of Taoism is a secret desire for power and immortality that is nothinig more than a manifestation of ego.

So the path of Taoism, at least for a Westerner not steeped in Confucian values and Oriental Tradition which helps keep the person on a straight line, is potentially confusing.

A guy can say " gee I dig this Chi Kung stuff it will make me really powerful, I think I'll practice such and such internal taoist exercice to beat up my neighbor"; but a guy cannot say " gee I think I'll sit in zazen for 8 hours a day and observe by breath and sensations in body AND THEN beat up my neighbor"

IMVHO

EAZ

[fiercest tiger]

Nice post my man!:)

So is Buddhist attachment to enlightment the same as Daoist attachment to Immortality? Kind of the same thing i think.

I wish i could have no attachments!:(

cheers
Garry

[Sui]

so gentlemen,what has this got to do with the title of this thread?fantastic post eaz but somehow i can't agree with you whole hartedly.......?

the 3 gods have been mention and to find the connection,you find what?

immortalty?
enlightenment?
confusion?

do you find yourself"wanting"?;)

yum,back to where you lead?
do you honestly call that adapting,by who's terminology?"spiritualism=a moments work.imo and i do not believe that there are any masters or novices on this subject,am i wrong?

"I spent my youth arguing with teachers, now perhaps I've the patience to learn."-yum

wow is this a true statement?to have patience to learn?then what do you learn with anger,depression?-nothing???

sorry but there are no great minds,imo.there is only mind[1]


"Perhaps for the same reason I engage you <grin>. Free internet access.... "-yum

why do you run from this question?are you a donkey?eg.is my opinion of you the same when i saw you as a donkey?has it changed?have i adapted?have i learned?do i see through the mist?etc

again you run from the next question.


i would say less.how is there less than nothing?

"I'm not up on the stars. Tell me something interesting about them."-yum

its hard to tell where you are where i am,but to be sure that you are not in the stars is niether positive or negative.

sui

[CannonFist]

FT, so you want to get rid of attachment eh?? :)

In the Prajna Paramita Hridaya Sutra it is said

Rupa Na Vrtta Sunyata
Sunyataya Na Vrtta Sa-rupam

Form does not differ from emptiness
Emptiness does not differ from form

So, ultimately what is there to be attached to?

However we have to always start from the basics just as in kung fu. The basics are the 4 noble truths in which attachment is the cause of suffering and therefore suffering as a cause should be removed.

But then again in the Prajna Paramita Hridaya Sutra...
Na duhkha samudaya nirodha marga

There is no suffering, no origination, no cessation, no path. In other words even the four noble truths should be voided.:) :)

[Yum Cha]

Welcome EAZ, Cannon to the fray. Nice to see you guys, it's been awhile EAZ. Cannon, what have you got in store for your training this next year? You know you are welcome to pass the year with us if you so desire.

EAZ, thanks for the overview. I think you understood what I was looking for, for you went directly to the point.

Cannon, thanks for the extrapolation.

FT, you and me both.


Originally posted by Sui
yum,back to where you lead?
do you honestly call that adapting, by who's terminology?"spiritualism=a moments work.imo and i do not believe that there are any masters or novices on this subject,am i wrong?

>>>> If you do not believe, I am not the one to change your mind. I am only curious as to how you reach your "beliefs" of "disbeliefs." With respect, how can you say that you do not believe some are masters and others are novices when you beat that drum on a regular basis? Is it just a challenge? If so why or what does it tell you?

"I spent my youth arguing with teachers, now perhaps I've the patience to learn."-yum

wow is this a true statement?to have patience to learn?then what do you learn with anger,depression?-nothing???

>>> Good question. One can go through many experiences and learn nothing. Often people repeat the same mistakes over and over. They have the experience, but not the ability to learn. Call the patience a predisposition to learn from lifes experiences, good, bad, or in-between.

sorry but there are no great minds,imo.there is only mind[1]

>>> I think we have here one of the fundamental differences between us. I see the two halves in a balancing act, keeping each or all forces in relation. Whereas it appears to me you see only one whole, one complete, and its parts are all equal without relation. Is that a fair statement?

>>>> This is why I was looking for from the questions about the difference between generic Buddhism and generic Taoism.

"Perhaps for the same reason I engage you <grin>. Free internet access.... "-yum

why do you run from this question?are you a donkey?eg.is my opinion of you the same when i saw you as a donkey?has it changed?have i adapted?have i learned?do i see through the mist?etc

>>> I answered you question, ok, the free internet access is a joke, I pay, but the answer is there. Perhaps it is not as obvious to you as to me. I enjoy our chats, and if you see me as a donkey or not is no more consequential to me now than it ever was. <grin>.

again you run from the next question.
i would say less.how is there less than nothing?

>>> Again, I didn't run from the answer, I gave you what I had. Granted, it may not be much, but it was honest.

"I'm not up on the stars. Tell me something interesting about them."-yum

its hard to tell where you are where i am,but to be sure that you are not in the stars is niether positive or negative.

>>> Sometimes language confuses us both, this is one instance. I meant to say that I know so little about the stars, I can't really make an intelligent comment. I was hoping you would tell me something about the stars.

sui

[Sui]

well it seems that your freinds have come and now distract you there is nothing to much to say except no hope for a connection[for now]

it was good chatting with you yum cha see you in the after life maybe?;)

sui:)

[fiercest tiger]

Hello,

Long time no see here, etc, hey are you and yummy up for yum cha also ill ask andy sifu from wah nam?

Did shaolinmaster head off to china yet?

take care
FT

Yummy,

call me if you are interesting in the yum cha deal with andy?

FT:)

[Yum Cha]

No hope of a connection? Indeed, don't we already have one?

I don't know that there ever is a resolution, or a conclusion, but it is enjoyable enough just to share viewpoints.

FT,
Yes, lets get Andy and a few others (Cannon, Shaolin Master (if he's still in town, Kyle, etc?) together for a Yum Cha. I'm going on holiday in mid September, so before or after should be fine. Perhaps we should have a lunch in honour of GM Cheung Lai Cheun at the end of August?

[fiercest tiger]

OK!

[EAZ]

Seems like the place to hang out. If airfares go down, maybe I'll finally crack and come over to see you guys.


off topic comment:

Rupa Na Vrtta Sunyata
Sunyataya Na Vrtta Sa-rupam

Form does not differ from emptiness
Emptiness does not differ from form

It is interesting that certain Chirsitan theologians, notably in the Middle Ages, said in a very matter of fact way that time and space were required for the universe to exist because without time there would be "no space" ie everything would be the same, eternal (meaningless) either completely full or empty it does not matter as there would be no movement. Conversely if there was no space, then time would be meaningless, as time exists, only because of movement/ existence between things. In other words, Time and space only exist with regards to one another and the dynamic exchange between the two, symbolised by movement. Ring any bells?

Now that many Westerners turn towards Oriental culture to get a grip on reality, outside of materialistic consumer world, we have managed to shun many of the bright people in Western civilisation who say many things similar to the Orient.

end of off topic comment, promise

EAZ

[Sui]

well yum its not that,its you that does not have the tanasity to keep it up that we can't carry on........is it your old age thats letting you down old boy?:D viewpoints indeed?lol

eaz,i might as well see what turns you on my mon ami,c'est beau?

"Taoism seeks to aleviate suffering by mastering the rules of the game so to speak and become immortal, unaffected by the law of cause and effect that is the source of existence and life and death. "-eaz

pray who taught you this?or from which book if i may boldly ask?
from my family the tao is to suffer,as to suffer no more not to reach immortality but to reach beyond "grace".

sui

[Sui]

eaz do you study quantum physics or what?lol

[Yum Cha]

It seems like the off topic has become the topic!

Hi Sui,
I'm not going anywhere. Perhaps you need a break to gather your thoughts?
Start another thread if you would like to continue, I'll pick you up there.

EAZ, indeed, we'll save a spot for you at the table. The thing to remember is that Sydney is practically 1/3 of all Australia. We're pretty concentrated here.

FT, tried to call you yesterday, I got your message, I'll try again later today.

[Sui]

yum i'm sure your illusions give you great hope and safety.when you run from the questions you deniy what is true[you]so if you can't continue then i'll meet you in the next life maybe?;)

[Yum Cha]

So, it is illustions. The tricky thing about illusions is that you can't tell which side of the illusion you're on.

I thought you said life was an illustion? Does that mean that I live? I think you're losing your train of thought and trying to dismiss me old friend.

One reality with only illusions as difference? Viewpoints as illusions?

The common experience is not as common as perhaps you wish to believe.

For example, right and wrong. Good and evil. Some tend to disregard the ethical and humanistic side of life with the "illusion" that all is the same, and there is no responsibility. Its all at the direction of the cosmos.

Virtue is as important to eastern as it is to western philosophy. Virtue is the first step for many, and the last step for a few. Is virtue an illusion?

Then we look at the way people or souls are doomed to keep repeating their mistakes until they learn the way.

Do you consider yourself vitruous? What are your virtues?

[Sui]

i can for i reconise that both are we are in that illusion.your problem is not knowing that you are or at least addmitting that you are?

that train you think on me ,is it not an illusion?

this whole charade is an illusion,please don't deniy and run from it,stand fast and ye shall know how this is the bak mei openings,would you not?

yes virtue is an illusion too for you dismiss yourself to keep up,what you think is not what you experience,am i right or am i write old boy?

to consider yourself virtuous is to deniy virtue itself.my personal virtues are that of none until i count to learn virtue is not a thought.am i wrong?

so quick is this the next life yum?;)

[Yum Cha]

Originally posted by Sui
i can for i reconise that both are we are in that illusion.your problem is not knowing that you are or at least addmitting that you are?

>>> Ok, I think I understand how you are using the word illusion, not as a deception, but as an interpretation. I could agree that it's all an illusion, as it is all only within out minds.

that train you think on me ,is it not an illusion?

>>> I think that we are different people, and I don't expect your experience of life to be the same as mine, and I do not judge based upon any difference.

this whole charade is an illusion,please don't deniy and run from it,stand fast and ye shall know how this is the bak mei openings,would you not?

>>> You keep on saying "run from it." What is it that you think I run from? The pak mei opening is that we are all brothers, the willow leaf, or that I am the best, come and get me, the incense stick. You can probably guess which one I use.

yes virtue is an illusion too for you dismiss yourself to keep up,what you think is not what you experience,am i right or am i write old boy?

>>> Yes and no. What I think is based upon my experience, yet I use it to create my experiences. As for dismissing myself, well, there was a time where I was consumed by myself. Those whom do not learn from their mistakes are doomed to repeat them.

to consider yourself virtuous is to deniy virtue itself.

>>> hai Sui fu.

my personal virtues are that of none until i count to learn virtue is not a thought.am i wrong?

>>> Virtue is, regardless of our personal relationship to it. It exists without us. To pursue its understand is a life's work. Virtue in thought, body and deed, are they all the same?

so quick is this the next life yum?;)

>>> The next life is next.

[Sui]

if you read this thread from when we first touched, to your last post,you will[maybe not] realize that you have come full circle to an illusive point to which why you need a "compass" for you have no bearing.i tried to help you out with us discussing,but with that there needs to be some kind of honest opininon to write["run from it"]

so is this the conclusive state that you are in?-i've read that you are,maybe?

but at least you are not stagnant,on the otherhand you do not flow.

anyway all the best with your "perspective" and "experiences" to which you "think".

see you in the next life"donkey"[in a nice way]

sui:)

[Yum Cha]

Originally posted by Sui
if you read this thread from when we first touched, to your last post,you will[maybe not] realize that you have come full circle to an illusive point to which why you need a "compass" for you have no bearing.

>>> Sui, there is nothing to forgive, as you have not done me any ill. I think that indeed we are going around in circles a bit now, some conversations were made to have in person. I will always have a cup of tea ready should you ever come to visit.

>>> As for my compass, on the contrary, I have a compass, a direction, a motivation and an objective. You may not understand or agree. What is your direction? If all is in the moment, than what is in tomorrow? What is the difference between accepting reality, and influencing reality?

i tried to help you out with us discussing,but with that there needs to be some kind of honest opininon to write["run from it"]

>>> Once again, what is it you think I run from? Can you verbalise it, as your illusion to it is hollow. Vague questions don't get strong answers. And for one so short on answers, you demand a lot from others.

so is this the conclusive state that you are in?-i've read that you are,maybe?

>>> The only conclusive state I know is death, and yet every ending is another beginning. I'm too old to know everything.

but at least you are not stagnant,on the otherhand you do not flow.

>>> I guess I'll have to be satisfied with meandering then <grin>.

anyway all the best with your "perspective" and "experiences" to which you "think". see you in the next life"donkey"[in a nice way]

>>> Only if your apples are sweet! And all the best to you in your completeness. You must be a very satisfied individual. Off you go now...Rolling Hand is waiting his turn up there on Wing Chun mountain....

Are you going on holiday soon?

sui:)