red5angel [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

old jong

07-12-2002, 07:34 AM

"Ultimately I thnk this Red5angel guy is just concerned about the way his art is being turned into garbage by people who dont care, and odnt understand what it is all real about.
WAIT A MINUTE!! I AM RED5ANGEL!!!!"

Those are your words. I have not been replying a lot to your posts because I hate everything that is political or can turn into it.Like all these style vs style threads everywhere most of your threads only tells us about how your Sifu (or sigung?) is better than everybody else in the world and how your lineage is the only one with real Wing Chun!...Many of your older brothers have told you in a polite way to "let go a little" and consider the fact that tact and politness is part of the martial arts as much as the technical parts.You never listen! You have your own views on everything and brush every comments away even if these comments are from people practicing Wing Chun for a very long time.
I tended to be very forgiving and somehow friendly with someone who loves Wing Chun like you do but,I wonder,are you bringing good to Wing Chun as you like to make us believe?...You seem to be instilling more trouble than good and you are not helping your Sifu at all believe me!...Is your "exitement" about Wing Chun more on the delirium side?...
I believe whatever the theorical knowledge someone might possess,the only real knowledge is into what he can do with his hands.So,what do you really know so you can say everybody else is doing crap?...
I can tell you something!...If I was you Sifu,you would have to shut up or leave and that's it!...

You can take this positively if you want.

S.Teebas

07-12-2002, 07:47 AM

You seem to be instilling more trouble than good and you are not helping your Sifu at all believe me!

Good point, perhaps Red, you could discuss the technical aspects and we could come to REALISE whats good for us if we understand it to make sence.. Kinda like when you were young and your mother would force you to eat your vegatables... you didnt want to do it! But when you grow up and realise, hey theres some goodness here that i have realied on my own...through my OWN understand of the reasons behind it. Not becasue you're told: "This is good so DO IT!!!"
Besides the point that all this sifu worship is wearing tirelessly thin, you should be trying to exchange info in a friendly manner...trying to unite WC rather than segregate it (as you seem intent on doing)

You can have you views without saying it. Heck, i think if you NEVER mentioned your stance on good or bad WC again....people would still understand your point of view!

I can tell you something!...If I was you Sifu,you would have to shut up or leave and that's it!...

Agreed...(if i were qualified to be a sifu of course! :P)

red5angel

07-12-2002, 08:02 AM

Old Jong, I understand where you are coming from. Here is my point of view:
First of all, I have never had a problem making freinds, and I can guarentee that if we were to meet face to face you would find me easy to talk to and discuss with, even if we differ on opinions. I am a nice guy, in general, but am not interested in being nice, just to keep the peace, at the cost of loosing something dear to me. In this case wing chun. In a perfect world all this wingchun out there would be cool, and fun and good, but it is not. If that breaks some peoples hearts to hear it, or outrages them, or inflames them or disappoints them that is fine but I do not play in those reindeer games.
Tell me this Old Jong, if someone asked you in earnest what you thought of thier wingchun, would you tell them the truth? It seems like some people are interested in only keeping the peace. The its all good, everything is ok, and it all works for someone attitude is a weak way to look at the martial arts. Samurai who often disagreed ended up trying to kill each other. I am not suggesting we kill each other, but that I will stand by my beliefs.
Many of my post are taken out of context by most here who are more interested in humor then in wingchun. I am often accused of kissing azz, particularly Carl Dechiaras, meanwhile the same people who do the accusing are blowing sunshine up each others butts about how its all ok.
I am not particularly concerned with people who dismiss what I am saying or cant look past percieved hype or advertisements to understand my point. If I say most wingchun sucks, I will be honest with you, I may not mean you in particular but chances are it may be true anyway. Sucks to hear it but that is how it sometimes is.
I am my own man, and do not speak for Carl or Ken Chung, I speak for myself, my attitude is my own. If I make a mistake I am more then willing to admit it and apologize. I have never made claims to be the best, just that I feel I am studying the best. I myself have a long way to go in my study but atleast I am making the effort to find it. Those who want to settle for what is convenient (Read most people) so be it, but I am not interested in that. I am interested in the search for good wingchun. In the old days many of the great masters, and wel known or notorious MA people were often said to have done much travelling and searching for the best, notmaking excuses about the cost of travel, the fact they had no time, or too many other hobbies. Hobbyist are fine by me but dont be a hobby instructor either if you have taken it up as a Hobby, because you most likely wont have it and will not have got it.
Now saying this I realize that it is not always the fault of the student, or even, at times the instructor, for passing down watered down, wing chun wannabe skills. It is often do to misguidance, and misleading on the part of those who came before.
Sorry to disappoint you Old jong, you seem like a nice guy, but it is really no concern of mine if I disappoint on this forum or not. I have recieved plenty of positive responses from people willing to discuss with me in seriousness where I am coming from etc.. feel free to pm or email me to talk if you wish to clarify my points of view, without distraction and such.

red5angel

07-12-2002, 08:16 AM

S. Teebas - "Good point, perhaps Red, you could discuss the technical aspects and we could come to REALISE whats good for us if we understand it to make sence.."

If you look at my last several post then you wil see that they are of a technical nature. It is often turned into something else by someone else, not myself. Some of them actually spur on some good conversation.......

old jong

07-12-2002, 08:23 AM

...Frankly,I don't think so!...

" If I say most wingchun sucks, I will be honest with you, I may not mean you in particular but chances are it may be true anyway"....:rolleyes:

...I REALLY don't think so!.... :(

I said what I had to say. I don't intend to email you to discuss points of view because I have students more advanced than you who deserve more attentions.
Good luck in your Wing Chun.

BTW, You are right about something!...I am a nice guy! That is why I respect others!

S.Teebas

07-12-2002, 08:26 AM

Hey red heres a story you might be interesed in:

I believe the late WSL may have shared similar views that you share now. I recall reading an article where it talk about how he was disguisted by many MA schools out there and often went around challangeing the instructors, and often the schools closed down after this. Later in his careea he said he regretted such actions because even though a school may not be the greatest quality, it does still offer many people many things. There is room for diversity.
(forgive me if this isnt completey accurate, but im sure some of the WSL guys on the forum could confirm that gist of this story)

What will you do red? What really are your goals here? Say we all come to think "Hey, red's right! we are all doing the wrong stuff! Lets all study what red studies!" Guess what.... everyone cant! Your teacher can only teach so many people, and most of us are in totally different continents!!

Actually i find it amazing that you could progress in Wc at all, your attitude is one that is unchanging once you make up your mind. You're tunnel visioned and not open to advice from people who obviously have much to offer (countless people on the forum have offered to you, but your too blind to ..or is it stuborness?... to take any on board )

Im probably wasting energy saying this as you seem to brush over everything unless you have said it. Maybe i'll just hit the ignore button.

reneritchie

07-12-2002, 08:27 AM

Just a couple points:

Minor stuff, but I think KJ (who studies directly with Chung sifu?) would be red's kung-fu aunt (junior, if she began after red's sifu), while David would be his "cousin" (still Sihing to be polite) as I believe he studies under red's sibak, Ben Der. Usually, when a senior in your own lineage takes the trouble to offer you their experience and insight, especially on a topic of such immense importance as Mo Duk (Wude, Martial Morality), it's worth its weight in gold. (red, if you think "real" Wing Chun is dying, "real" Mo Duk is almost extinct and for the very reasons you use to explain/excuse your behavior).

On to a question: Red, you've often asked, in one way or another, if people would empty their cup if it came to a better teacher. What about a different art? What if you had a chance (maybe you already have, but this is theoretical ;) ) to meet a noted Chen stylist, a world-class Thai boxer, a champion Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu fighter, etc. and they (or their beginner students) just tore you apart. Would you leave WCK altogether and take up Chen or Thai or BJJ or ROSS/RMA, or whatever?

RR

Axiom

07-12-2002, 08:28 AM

Red, why do you presume to know all the technicalities and lecture people who are, in terms of Wing Chun experience, by far your seniors? Many of the points you make are, well, obvious. Unimpressive. I am merely a beginner but I am left wondering why you bothered. Surely you should be seeking lectures, not offering them?

Spectre

07-12-2002, 08:31 AM

So if someone were to actually come to your kwoon, and decide for themselves that your style was inferior (I'm not saying it is - this is hypothetical) and could not compare to what they were learning, would you graciously accept their point of view or would you chalk it up to them not understanding?

I really do not think that people are saying that your posts are without any merit. What they are saying is that your style of writing (marketing and worship) is outrageous. People do not want to hear that their style is worthless about as much as you would like to hear the same about your Wing Chun and your Sifu. It's all about showing a little respect.

What actually makes you think that you are at a level to judge who's Wing Chun is good or bad? And then ask yourself good or bad for whom? Have you ever thought that someone may be learning Wing Chun for different reasons than you? Have you ever thought that what you know right now is only the first step to what you really need to understand? Many of the posters on this board have already walked in your shoes and know that which they talk about. No blind regurgitation.

The fact that you keep posting the same thing even though no one wants to hear it speaks volumes in and of itself.

Kevin

red5angel

07-12-2002, 09:15 AM

Spectre, great, my style of writing doesnt work for you, then skip over and commet on the subject and the meat of it. Why are so many people concerned so much with what I think?
Axiom, no presumptions, you should read my original post again here, because I made it quite clear that I understand I have a long way to go, but I am being imparted with an understanding that is much deeper then is typical.

RR - I understand the ideas od Wu De, but am not interested necessarily in archaic practices. I owe loyalty to Carl, If I were to meet Kath Jo and she impressed me as someone of good character who can teach me something then great, same with anyone else in my lineage but Ken, who passed on his knowledge to Carl. Otherwise they get civility and freindliness and the respect I give any one else. Just because they disagree with me doesnt mean they are right or that I should drop everything I am doing or saying.
For the rest who have like to make claims of having done it longer, great but you should know my stance on that by now, if you have been doing bad wingchun for 10 years, then it is still bad wingchun!
Respect is one thing but I feel the way I feel, and I understand my way of posting has offended some, I have tried to tone it back as much as I am interested in. If people dont like it, then dont read it, but I have got enough of a positive response that I am going to keep posting and discussing.
As for your question, no, I would not switch. If I got beat by someone the very first thing I would look at would be myself and what I could have done better or what I could have done or the knowledge I am missing taht would have allowed me to win the fight. thats my whole point, why study mediocre when you can look for the best? I practice wingchun because I like it and think it can hold its own against everything else out there. If there is a failure at some point, and I think I am studying the best I could only assume the failure is within myself

pvwingchun

07-12-2002, 09:24 AM

Please define/describe bad Wing Chun. Or define/describe good Wing Chun.

red5angel

07-12-2002, 09:32 AM

pvwingchun - Just check out my post over the last two weeks to see what I define as good and bad. The problem with discussing them over the internet is that many people talk about these things but not all of them do it.

Spectre

07-12-2002, 09:34 AM

Someone seriously needs to go back and learn how to learn. No Wing Chun can be good without knowing how to learn.

Originally posted by red5angel
Spectre, great, my style of writing doesnt work for you...

Can you find anyone on this board other than yourself that it does work for?

Originally posted by red5angel
Why are so many people concerned so much with what I think?

You keep missing the point. People could care less about what you think - everyone is entitled to an opinion. Stop advertising and criticizing.

Originally posted by red5angel
...I made it quite clear that I understand I have a long way to go, but I am being imparted with an understanding that is much deeper then is typical.

With such a long way to go, what qualifies you to say that your understanding is deeper than typical? What is the typical IN YOUR EXPERIENCE?

Originally posted by red5angel
I understand the ideas od Wu De, but am not interested necessarily in archaic practices.

Since when did it become archaic to show respect and humility?

Originally posted by red5angel
Otherwise they get civility and freindliness and the respect I give any one else.

You must have a problem making friends.

Originally posted by red5angel
If there is a failure at some point, and I think I am studying the best I could only assume the failure is within myself.

Looking at your posts, I highly doubt you could ever believe that failure is within yourself.

Kevin

red5angel

07-12-2002, 09:41 AM

Kevin, would you like to go back and read my post again please? I said I have got plenty of positive responses, negative as well but you take the bad with the good.

As for respect and humility, I have both, but they are not needed at all times. Respect is given on a general level to anyone (If you had been reading my post you would notice that I often point out I am not talking about specific people, just wing chun practitioners in general, if you get upset at my post, then you must have an issue there.) but anything above that must be earned.

I recommend that if you dont want to trust me, go see Carl for yourself.

churn-ging

07-12-2002, 09:59 AM

r5a: "I have never made claims to be the best, just that I feel I am studying the best."

Didn't you use to think that your first wc intstructor was great until he got beat by Carl? After that, didn't you switch over to Carl's teachings because you saw how good he was and how he was able to handle your first instructor?

Well, what if some other wc instructor came along one day and bet your current sifu Carl? Would you then decide to switch over to that lineage and proclaim them to be the best?

I'm asking this because you keep on saying that everything out there is crap and that they just "don't have it." Well, just what if someone did come along and bet your sifu, would you then go and say that Carl just "doesn't have it" and move on to that lineage?

There are a lot of good wc sifus out there that has a lot to offer if you would just open your eyes and look. If you truely believe that you are "studying the best," then I don't think that you will ever "get it" either.

pvwingchun

07-12-2002, 10:03 AM

I did now could you answer this question.

If we don't do it exactly like you is that good or bad? Keep in mind that we adhere to the Wing Chun Principles, believe in respect and humility, follow the teachings of Ip Man as they were handed to us, yet this may impart stylisitic and interpretative (is this a word) differences.

Another question, "What would you say drives the art of Wing Chun?" Example, is it technique, or pinciples, or sensitivity, etc.....

red5angel

07-12-2002, 10:04 AM

Churn- Ging - as I dont speak for Carl I cant tell you what he would do but I would stick with him. If carl met someone who could beat him he would definitely find out how, or why, and pass that on to me. I doubt there are many people out there who could however, of course that is just my opinion.

I did not abandon my first sfiu because of Carl, I dropped him like a bad habit because he sucked, plain and simple and then began my search for the best that I could find. Now that I have found it, I will study it and work with it.

Spectre

07-12-2002, 10:09 AM

No surprise R5A but we definitely disagree. Respect and Humility should be practised at all times.

I have read every single one of your posts R5A. Some start out pretty decent and then resort to advertising and criticizing. Perhaps you should go back and read everyone else's posts.

It is very easy to say that you do not speak for anyone but yourself, but when you speak about your lineage, your character (Respect and Humility included) does reflect upon others.

Have you even considered that the 'bad' Wing Chun that you have seen is still a work in progress? I am sure there is quite a bit of 'bad' Wing Chun that you do - but you are still learning. And learning is an eternal journey.

While I have no doubt that Carl may be an upstanding gentleman and an exceptional Wing Chun practitioner, he is not the end all - be all of Wing Chun.

Everyone has already said that they think it is great that you have found a sifu that you like and that you are enthusiastic about learning. But don't shove YOUR solution down other people's throat.

The only thing that everyone else has asked for is for you to stop advertising and criticizing. Once again - perhaps you should go back and read everyone else's postings.

Kevin

reneritchie

07-12-2002, 10:21 AM

Red -

> I understand the ideas od Wu De, but am not interested necessarily in archaic practices

WCK could be seen as an archaic practice to some. In any event, ever heard the famous Mark Twain saying (which I'll paraphrase since the exact words escape me). "When I left my father some seven years ago, he was an idiot. When I returned, I was surprised to see how much he'd learned in such a short time." This shows the wonderful hubres of a child, who even after maturing to realize how much his father really knows, still hasn't matured enough to realize it was he himself who learned, not his father.

> As for your question, no, I would not switch. If I got beat by someone the very first thing I would look at would be myself and what I could have done better or what I could have done or the knowledge I am missing

What if they took you apart so systematically that you were certain nothing more you could do would matter? (If you met Thai boxer Carl, for example?) And if still no, shouldn't that apply then to other people in WCK? They like their lineages as much as you like WCK and just because they may have some faults, doesn't mean they aren't working on them, even as you work on yours.

Rgds,

RR

Gandolf269

07-12-2002, 10:28 AM

The wise old One has spoken!! And as usual he hit the nail on the head.

Here, here Old Jong.

aelward

07-12-2002, 10:39 AM

r5a:

No matter how much you say you speak for yourself, or that your opinions are your own, you are still a reflection of your teacher. If you abandon "wude" as archaic, then it reflects badly on you; and by extesion, your Sifu. While most of us are willing to write you off as an individual loose canon, there are probably those out there less forgiving who will assume that your Sifu has instilled this attitude in you (trust me, we see it all the time). It is just like in grade school, where some kid misbehaves; you assume they have no "home training."

So since you respect your teacher so much, you should do him a favor and temper your writing style.

Wei Sui

07-12-2002, 10:44 AM

Stop the madness...you have some good posts but you need to do one thing check your ego/C D woody at the door.

red5angel

07-12-2002, 11:09 AM

Wu Sei - I didnt start this thread someone else did!

RR - Yep, I have heard the quote, its a good one, and who knows may be found to be applicable at some point.
I get your remarks on a work in progress, if you are talking about the level of the students? In that case that is usually easy to tell. For instance, the last class I checked out, the students had only been there for a few weeks. You can extrapolate only a little information from this, for instance if they seem to be picking it up, it might be an indication that the instructor is good. It could also mean the students are good!
If this person took me apart but wasnt in wingchun, then the questions for which they posed (By beating me so thoroughly)would have to be addressed from a wingchun point of view.
Also if they do then that is great. For instance you obviously highly regard who and what you are learning and I have much respect for that. If you are happy where you are then so be it, you always state the way I post may bother you but the content isnt always bad. I think that instead of trying to fix me maybe some should try your approach ;)

Aelward - I will tel you what, without comprimising my feelings on WC I will see what I can do about making my post more freindly so people are more receptive, BUT, if they continue to fall into the realm of hijacked threads then I will say it how I want to ok? I can be amicable and sometimes even reasonable. I thought the Chi Sau thread was going alright, atleast for a while anyway...some of my other threads have been pretty good for a while but then it turns to "Awe red, why do you love so and so so much" OR "Red why dont you do this or that". So its a deal ok? I will see what I can do about appeasing some of the WC family here on the Forum for a while. :)

old jong

07-12-2002, 11:38 AM

"I will see what I can do about appeasing some of
the WC family here on the Forum for a while."

What!...Do you mean you consider as family all those idiots who do bad Wing Chun?...I mean the rest of the world? (all of us of course!)...And you will see what you can do to appease us?...What will you do? throw us a bone?...
You are going a little bit too far for my tastes!

Please don't serve me that line about "If I have a problem or an issue about it ,there is probably a good reason" thing!...I am not an idiot!

red5angel

07-12-2002, 11:45 AM

Old Jong, I think you got the wrong idea. I told Aelward I am willing to try to play a little more nice without having to go against the way I feel.
As I stated before some of the people who do bad wingchun (I have named no name, if you want to point fingers be my guest) are just mislead or misguided
If you do get upset then there are only a few things going on, 1.)You assume I am talking about you. 2.) You are someone I am talking about and know it 3.) Dont have anything better to do then debate on the internet. ;)

Either way, this discussion stops here as far as I am concerned, I am on here to discuss Wing Chun. I practice wing chun but do not deserve an entire thread devoted to me (Actually this would be the second!) I say we talk about wingchun ok?

Actually Old Jong you have always struck me as a pretty intelligent person, so I would never or have never implied you are an idiot.

old jong

07-12-2002, 12:12 PM

"Actually Old Jong you have always struck me as a pretty intelligent person, so I would never or have never implied you are an idiot."
Why are you trying flattery on me when you just written:"If you do get upset then there are only a few things going on, 1.)You assume I am talking about you. 2.) You are someone I am talking about and know it 3.) Dont have anything better to do then debate on the internet."!...
My guess would be that you consider me an idiot to the point of suggesting me correct answers!...Besides you again tried that manipulation technique on me!

" I practice wing chun but do not deserve an entire thread devoted to me"!...
What can I say about that?...Are we talking about your practicing or your typing?...

"as I am concerned, I am on here to discuss Wing Chun"
Great!...talk about what you CAN do.I REPEAT "what you ,not talking about Carl but,what YOU can do, and stop preaching like you we're the new Wing Chun messiah or something!

"Either way, this discussion stops here"
No problems with me if you show just a little respect for the rest of the guys here who are for the most your seniors in Wing Chun.

Grendel

07-12-2002, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by red5angel

As I stated before some of the people who do bad wingchun (I have named no name, if you want to point fingers be my guest) are just mislead or misguided

Hi R5A,

I wouldn't have joined this thread if you hadn't once again put your foot in my mouth. Pardon me while I gag. :(

Your allegations about bad Wing Chun by implication smear everybody else's schools. You didn't invent this rhetorical tactic. It is very common in politics and journalism.

It is not your Sigung's contention that everyone else sucks, so stop repeating and prattling on and on about it.

BTW, when you point your finger, three fingers are pointing back at you. :)

red5angel

07-12-2002, 01:06 PM

Grendel, I am not sure I understand what you are saying. By saying alot of wing chun sucks I am just stating how I feel. ITs how I feel. I havent pointed any fingers at anybody specific. I dont realy know most of these people personally. I think the problem mostly is interpretation really.
I apologize if you feel I have stepped on your toes, it wasnt my intention. I have explained this many times to many other posters as well, trying to get people to understand my point but it keeps getting drug back up and flailed at some more.

Really I dont understand why everyone has to assume I am talking about them? I am talking in general, I cant control how it is being interpreted.

Grendel

07-12-2002, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by wujidude
is this thread KFO, or is it a discussion in the mental hospital where Old Jong works?

It truly is reminding me of dialogue from "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest."

Old Wujidude
It's more like Yossarian's complaints to Major Major regarding Milo Minderbinder's business ethics in "Catch 22." :)

Obviously, if we want the endless amateur marketing of Carl's boy to stop, we have to shut up, but if we shut up, it continues on and on to infinity, hence, Catch-22. :)

pvwingchun

07-12-2002, 02:28 PM

Really I dont understand why everyone has to assume I am talking about them?
Because...

By saying alot of wing chun sucks I am just stating how I feel.
You usually preface this with most, all WC that you have observed or some other word or words that implies most of us out here.

Whe you say intrepretation do you mean intrepretation of your words or differences in intrepretation of Wing Chun.

Slo Mo

07-12-2002, 02:32 PM

Change the Channel!! This soap opera is getting boring, we want more kung fu action and less drama!!!:mad:

All of you shut up! I'm watching my stories :D

Red5
The only way you can back up your claims of crappy wing chun is by touching hands with everyone on this forum. Until then, cool it with your broad generaliztions. The only thing it helps to do is appease your own fears and doubts about the crappiness of your own wing chun. Why do you keep searching if you have found the one?

To those who thinks Red5 is full of Sh*t, PM him with a time and place and lets get this little drama over with. :confused:

anerlich

07-12-2002, 02:41 PM

I am not talking about specific people, just wing chun practitioners in general

So rather than pi$$ing off individuals, you end up pi$$ing off everybody. Did Carl teach you that "strategy"?

07-12-2002, 02:43 PM

Hi Rene.

Originally posted by reneritchie
Just a couple points:

Minor stuff, but I think KJ (who studies directly with Chung sifu?)

Yes, Ken is my teacher directly.

would be red's kung-fu aunt (junior, if she began after red's sifu),

That is correct. Carl started with Ken earlier than I did.

while David would be his "cousin" (still Sihing to be polite) as I believe he studies under red's sibak, Ben Der.

I believe David is now officially in Ken's class also.

I fully anticipate that David retains strong ties with Ben, who is the most senior of all Ken's students. For that matter, Ben is beloved amongst virtually all of us who know him. Above and beyond his skill, he is an exceptional man of exceptional character. He's a ton of fun to boot. :)

Usually, when a senior in your own lineage takes the trouble to offer you their experience and insight, especially on a topic of such immense importance as Mo Duk (Wude, Martial Morality), it's worth its weight in gold. (red, if you think "real" Wing Chun is dying, "real" Mo Duk is almost extinct and for the very reasons you use to explain/excuse your behavior).

I have seen many others try to be of service to him, in this and other venues. Various tacts and methods of reasoning have been to no avail. He has made it politely, repeatedly and abundantly clear to numerous of Ken's direct students, other Leung Sheung family-group practitioners, as well as the majority of this forum's members, that their thoughts, feelings and opinions are not his concern. He has thus far rejected every offer of experiential wisdom, regardless of source. In a polite albeit round-about way, and in many cases by simply ignoring people, it is MHO that he has consistently invited anyone offering guidance or insight to pi$$ off.

In that light, I think it best to leave Red to tend his own drama and enjoy the consequences.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

burnsypoo

07-12-2002, 03:18 PM

unpleasant stuff, guys.

Keep in mind that everyone has something to teach us, it's just a matter of when.

(cough... and if a couple of "corrections" need to be distributed along the way, then so be it...cough... KJ you go girl, WAH-BAM!!!!...cough.....)
-BP-

old jong

07-12-2002, 04:31 PM

"is this thread KFO, or is it a discussion in the mental hospital where Old Jong works?"...Wujidude.

Not exactly but some patterns are similar in some ways! He is obviously very intelligent and can be manipulative by attempting to create doupts and turning the subject around..." You would not feel insulted if this was not true " (paraphrasing)He also adopt a "superior" position..."I know where you come from " why not email me so we can discuss" (Again paraphrasing) You are now the humble disciple asking for advices from a BEGINNER!
Believe me ,I have seen this kind of patterns for 25 years!
Now, I work in collaboration with psychiatrists ,psychologists,nurses and even the janitor and we can sometimes pierce complicated and puzzling behaviors but the patient has to help a little bit!
BTW, I'm not saying there that red5angel is a nutcase!...Many perfectly normal people use those kind of strategies to get attention or fill some holes in their self-esteem.
Now back to Siu Lim Tao....