"Mcdojo.com" [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Phrost

07-15-2002, 11:26 AM

Hey everyone, someone from MartialWay pointed me to this thread and I had to wait over the weekend for my account to be verified before I could respond.

For those of you that don't know, I'm the Owner/Admin of McDojo.com and I just wanted to point out a few things and maybe clear up some of the confusion.

The most important thing to remember about our site is that it's 100% user-based content. All registered users can post articles, pictures, links, downloads, whatever.

So if there's a MMA only slant over there, then it's because nobody else is representing their points of view on the "McDojo" theme/subject.

I'll admit, there are strong feelings on the subject on both sides of the coin (traditional vs. MMA). But there are only a handfull of people over there that represent traditional martial arts, and consequently there's no balance of opinion.

I myself come from a traditional martial arts background, having studied TKD/Karate informally as a kid, then Wushu and Wing Chun more recently in the past 5 years. I'm also a MMA fan and I'm training in Brazillian Jiujitsu and Muay Thai as well.

The problem of McDojos is one that the entire Martial Arts community faces. But what makes it even more tough to deal with is the fact that nobody wants to admit that their school is a McDojo, even if they've got 9 year old blackbelts, outrageous "membership" fees, a blackbelt "club" or fast-track program, etc.

That's why this site is needed so badly. The truth hurts, and until people stop exploiting Martial Arts for personal gain (monetary or otherwise), it's going to continue to be something we're all embarassed about. Every time someone with little skill is awarded a black belt he/she didn't earn, it waters down the quality of martial arts, lowers the value of the black belt, and slowly kills any credibilty of the art itself.

It's for this very reason that people have started to "pack up and move" away from traditional martial arts toward arts that have been demonstrated and proven to be effective, like Muay Thai, Sambo, Krav Maga, Brazillian Jiujitsu, Shootfighting, etc. For every myth sold to students of a McDojo about the greatness of the art they can "master within 2-3 years", there's videotape of a Karate black belt getting pummeled by a MMA fighter.

Simply put, if that's not a trend you want to see continue, then each and every one of you needs to do your part in stamping out complacency and a lack of standards in the martial arts themselves. Maybe it's just a reflection of our "instant gratification" culture that's keeping us from holding each other to a higher standard, or maybe it's just plain old personal gain.

Either way, unless it's dealt with, more and more people are going to move away from traditional arts towards something that's a bit more tangible to them.

I invite each of you to participate in the discussions that go on at McDojo's. I invite you to submit articles on the subject, and to help us achieve the goals that inspired us to create the site in the first place: to root out frauds and flakes in the Martial Arts so that being a black belt might still have some value.

Neal "Phrost" Fletcher
Lead Admin, www.McDojo.com

Shaolindynasty

07-15-2002, 01:55 PM

Ok, now that's a reasonable reponse. I'm in, What kind of information could I contribute and how do I contribute it?

Phrost

07-15-2002, 02:56 PM

Well the easiest way to contribute is to participate in the forum discussions. Be warned though, there are more than a few pro-MMA guys on the site that are pretty set in their opinions.

The best way is to write up an article on a McDojo you're familiar with, or pretty much anything with that theme. If you go to the Features-->Articles section you can click on "submit an article" and it'll get in the system. Once a moderator approves it, it'll go in as an article, people can rate and comment on it and everything. We'll even post it on the front page in a news blurb as well.

There are also links sections that you can submit suspected McDojos, and they can be rated 1-10 (10 being worst). There are also sections for legitimate schools, and misc. all of which can be submitted by users.

We even have an events calendar that users can update with events that might be happening around the country (world).

Play around with the site, there are a ton of things you can do.

Send me an email if you have any specific questions as well, I'd be glad to help.

Phrost
Lead Admin, McDojo.com

Hau Tien

07-15-2002, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by Phrost
Well the easiest way to contribute is to participate in the forum discussions. Be warned though, there are more than a few pro-MMA guys on the site that are pretty set in their opinions.

Oh yeah... I'll get right on participating. Nothing I love more than wasting my time arguing with "pro-MMA guys who are set in their opinions."

Why would any traditional martial artist want to, when one of the head folks for the site warns you right off the start to expect someone to call you down for what you're going to post?

As polite and generally well written as your response was, I don't think I'll be signing up any time in the foreseeable future. Sounds like it'll appeal more to the "junior high mentality" martial artists.

Shaolindynasty

07-15-2002, 03:59 PM

Actually even though that's what goes on allot on there now(like it doesnt here:rolleyes: ) The way the site is set up reflects it's users. So if more "serious open minded" martial artists contribute it will change the attitude of the site.

Phrost

07-15-2002, 04:30 PM

Originally posted by Hau Tien

Oh yeah... I'll get right on participating. Nothing I love more than wasting my time arguing with "pro-MMA guys who are set in their opinions."

Why would any traditional martial artist want to, when one of the head folks for the site warns you right off the start to expect someone to call you down for what you're going to post?

As polite and generally well written as your response was, I don't think I'll be signing up any time in the foreseeable future. Sounds like it'll appeal more to the "junior high mentality" martial artists.

That's the nature of the internet though. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Hey, I just felt it was fair warning so the more thin-skinned people wouldn't get upset and go into a tissy about things.

I'm not sure what you mean by "junior high martial artists" if you're talking about juvenile MMA fans, Sherdog.com's got the license on them anyway. Most of the original posters at McDojo's are from the Abu Dhabi Combat Club forums, of which the bulk of the posters actually train for fighting sports if not compete in them.

Just like Shaolin said, the more people that represent their opinions, the more balanced the site's presentation will be. If you don't want to sign up because the heat from the kitchen's too hot, that's fine. Nobody's going to give you any flak about it.

My point is simple though, the Martial Arts community should take the issue of McDojos, fradulent "masters" and scams in our arts very seriously, and this site was founded with the intention to be a place for this community to reflect on these issues and find ways of dealing with them.

If not you, then who?

Brad

07-15-2002, 09:28 PM

Who cares if some BJJ guy thinks your art is useless? Will arguing on a message board prove him wrong or change his mind? Why should I care if some "traditionalist" I've never met thinks my wushu is only for dance and useless in a fight just because I use the term "wushu"? *sigh...* anyway I'm leaving KFO for quite awhile after tonight & tommorrow to concentrate more on my training, because reading coments like that does make me want to kick someone's ass when it really shouldn't bother me.

Brad

07-15-2002, 09:31 PM

Just another thought... what qualifies as a McDojo? And why put a "most useless martial art" poll on a website?

Hau Tien

07-15-2002, 11:00 PM

The idea behind the site is sound... I'm not disagreeing there. I just think it will have a ways to go before I'll enjoy participating in it, is all I'm saying.

Brad, that is what I mean exactly. I don't feel like sitting there trying to defend Chinese Martial Arts to anyone. And I don't think I should have to:) I'm not quite adolescent enough to enjoy fighting on the internet:)

I believe the pic that was floating around the net was accurate (If completely not "PC")... "Arguing on the Internet is like competing in the Special Olympics... even if you win, you're still retarded."

Just posting my own opinion... not saying anyone shouldn't sign up for that site and participate:)

anton

07-16-2002, 05:52 AM

http://a2.cpimg.com/image/1E/95/11107102-757d-0200018B-.jpg

Phrost

07-16-2002, 07:37 AM

Yeah, that was the original graphic for our site.

We've grown a bit since then.

Hey, if you don't want to represent your style, that's fine. I'm not here to try and convince anyone they should defend their styles from "BJJ Guys" etc.

McDojos are different things to different people. To some, it's a TKD school that charges too much money and hands out black belts like candy. To others, it's any traditional martial art.

The premise of the site is not to argue semantics, but to discuss the problems in the Martial Arts community. And if traditional arts aren't represented, all we'll have is a bunch of "BJJ guys" around to present all traditional martial arts as the problem.

Do what you like, the site's there for you.

Royal Dragon

07-16-2002, 09:06 AM

And if traditional arts aren't represented, all we'll have is a bunch of "BJJ guys" around to present all traditional martial arts as the problem.

Reply]
I can agree with this point, and it pains me to see traditional arts maligned. Especially by a bunch of BJJ guys who have to have special rules to force people to fight their way. But then again didn't we have all this debate here on KFO for the last few years?

Are we really going to convince the world of Bjj we are legit when they won't even come to the Kou Shou or San Shou to fight? Or when they won't fight us unless they have special rules to give them the edge? (Can't hit'em on the ground when we are standing up?, Must fight on the ground if "They" are on the ground?)

I made a post on there, but to be honest I don't think it's going to be worth it,and I'm not up to that fight agian.

When they have rules in thier matches that allows us to throw them on thier heads and stand there and kick the stuffing out of them wile they are curled up in a fetal position on the ground you will see Kung Fu show up and prove itself. It may take a few years for many of us to take those clowns seriously, but it will happen. But right now we are forced to fight in their style wile being trained in ours.

I don't see it as anything but rock throwing over the fence.

Royal Dragon

SDriver

07-16-2002, 10:49 AM

It's always nice to get input from sensible, open-minded people from whatever tradition.

SifuAbel

07-16-2002, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by Phrost

McDojos are different things to different people. To some, it's a TKD school that charges too much money and hands out black belts like candy. To others, it's any traditional martial art.

Nope, sorry, can't agree with you on this one. Reading through your site there appeared to be no "others". It was 99% TMA bashing. And not just from the forum members but from the entire page format. You mentioned a lot of your members were from one camp. Where everyone has learned to have the same opinions. Which is typical coming from one school. If you were a resposible host and intended to be fair you would make a point that there are good TMA schools out there. Your posts here have been very "PC", but it seems you tend to agree with yor readership and your page reflects that. I think the whole stance is immature and arrogant. Did these guys invent whole new ways of punching, kicking, grappling, etc? No.

Phrost

07-16-2002, 02:11 PM

"Before I learned the art, a punch was just a punch, a kick was just a kick...

...now that I have mastered the art, a punch is just a punch, a kick is just a kick."

--Bruce Lee

Nobody claims to have reinvented anything. MMA in its most pure form is everything Bruce Lee would have wanted to see before he died.

But I'm not trying to argue for MMA here, just that TMA should be represented on the subject of McDojos.

You have to admit, after watching UFC 1-4 and seeing the TMA's get stomped by groundfighters, it's pretty convincing to the average, uninformed person.

On the other hand, where's the evidence to support TMA's effectiveness, other than anecdotes and hearsay?

That's not a rhetorical question, I'm genuinely interested in evidence to support the effectiveness of TMA's.

As far as San Shao goes, to many, it's just revisionist Kung Fu in the light of BJJ being proven so effective. Again, not my words, but the general sentiments of most MMA practicioners I know.

What are the rules of a San Shao tournament? Is it like the IVC where the rules are extremely limited and do not dictate how the combatants must fight?

The ideal means of proving a style's effectiveness is to not put any restrictions on the way it can be used. Again, the original UFCs did this, and for whatever reasons only a few TMArtists wanted to participate. They lost.

If you step out of your convictions for a second and look at both sides of the issue you'll see that it IS easy for someone sitting on the fence to side with MMA over TMA because there is more evidence to support its claims.

So it's up to you to present the evidence, or to go the way of the dodo.

As far as my personal feelings on the subject, yes I've been more inclined towards MMA, but I've since learned that it's a pretty big responsibility to run a site like this, and I don't want to alienate people that represent TMA's if for no other reason than they're the roots from which we've all sprung.

Your opinions and views are more than welcome at McDojo's; they're desperately needed.

SifuAbel

07-17-2002, 02:28 AM

Thank you for proving me right.

As Royal dragon mentioned before, and I paraphrase, Why is UFC the measure of all things? Why don't we see or talk about other venues that do include TMA in their context. UFC has been for the last 26 episodes virtually TMA free. MMA and UFC, which is for the most part tai boxing and BJJ or some other grappling art, has had its own venue. TMA went elsewhere. The question remains, why do we have to come to you, why can't you come to us? Whomever "Us" is. In reality this whole arguement is based on events that happened a heck of a long time ago. These are as much "old stories" as anything else. It has been a run of the same type fighters for 26 shows. It has its own fanbase. Which may include TMA people. It has it's own stables of fighters. Few outside this world is even remotely interested in crossing over to a UFC type fight. If what you say is true, UFc and MMA types should utterly dominate san shou. Why don't we see more of this? Beacuse they aren't remotely interested either.

Sure, you had a lot of people in the first four not knowing what to expect. Being that they were still following their own rules in mindset. The pure kickboxer is used to standing stalk straight and used a clinch only in order to rest before being separated. This was easy pickings. I saw it time and time again. The point fighter(poor devil) was hopping around playing the usual tag game. Not knowing or not expecting to have power in their attacks and trying to evade everything.

This however is another world. People who like to keep it on the hoof don't fall for the same tactics as easily as they did back then. They've learned stratagies to get around and stay moblie. They've also learned to fight in other than marques de queensbury rules. They've learned how not to get eaisly flanked and have a lower base of gravity. They have better, dare I say it, better stance work. And these are the MMA people I talking about. Where did these people develope these better striking skills? BJJ?

Merryprankster

07-17-2002, 02:43 AM

When they have rules in thier matches that allows us to throw them on thier heads and stand there and kick the stuffing out of them wile they are curled up in a fetal position on the ground you will see Kung Fu show up and prove itself. It may take a few years for many of us to take those clowns seriously, but it will happen. But right now we are forced to fight in their style wile being trained in ours.

Royal, I think you're a bit misinformed. Watch a more recent PRIDE--like maybe the PRIDE:collision course DVD. You can soccer kick to the head, knee to the skull and bootstomp somebody into oblivion all you like in those rules. Nice knee to the skull knockout by Mark Coleman, and a vicious beatdown of Sakuraba by Wanderlei Silva by kicks to the head and stomps and knees while Sak was on all fours. Slam knockouts on the base of the skull/top of the head ala Rampage Jackson are perfectly legal.

Go find a guy who wants to fight in PRIDE, let him get a little bit of a name for himself, or take one who is already at a high level in international or national San Shou/San Da/Kuo Shou and I'm sure there will be no problem. PRIDE would JUMP at the chance to have a KF guy in the ranks. They pay pretty good too, and the Japanese are avid, almost rabid, fight fans.

So, you're allowed to do everything you listed--throw the guy on the head and bootstomping. What's not to like? Oh yeah--no elbows. Oh well.

I DO agree that the UFC rules are limiting with respect to what you outlined and could understand your frustration with them.

To forestall any complaints: SifuAbel--I'm well aware that the UFC and PRIDE are not the measure of all things. :) Just specifically addressing the rules issue

Crimson Phoenix

07-17-2002, 02:51 AM

I'm getting tired of all this "UFC is the ultimate paradigm of fight" and that "NHB is really No Holds Barred" shi@t.
Merry, thanks for correcting that, as far as rules go, I did think some standing attacks to grounded opponents were allowed.
Nevertheless, I'm really, really tired of it though.
I'm thankful that I met some open-minded grapplers, because aside from that it seems that you all bash TMA.
You grappling guys criticize TMA delusions, but you don't even realize your own.
All you proved so far is that you just have the balls to fight in a ring when there's medical support, steroids, a solid set of rules that emphasize ground fighting and fat azz checks to win.
How glorious...
You really think that in the streets you have time to roll around with guy for ten minutes trying to find an opening just to end up on a submission? What happens next, after you submitted him? No referee will come to hold up your hand and designate you as the winner. So what is next?
Even in the NHB, you get props for participating and losing. In the streets there is no "at least I did my best", you are either the one walking back home, or the one resting in a pool of your own blood.
And don't serve me that "have you been in the ring" crap, because I have, back in my savate days. And there, I realized one thing: with sport fighting, the baddest bruises you'll ever risk are your ego's. I hate to talk like that, but definitely enough is enough.

I saved my own azz and busted some while being 100% TMA trained, and that's all I need to know as far as efficiency of TMA goes.

SifuAbel

07-17-2002, 02:56 AM

Oh come on MP. Disagree with me on something!!
Nothing is right with the world.

The DOW is at a deep low. Trillions have been stolen.

Ben ladin is still alive. It takes three hours to board a plane nobody wants to fly in.

Cops are still beating up on teenage(and in this case menatlly challenged) black kids.

Toby Maguire is spiderman and Ben Afleck is the Daredevil, for jebus sakes!!

Come on buddy, make things right once again.

:D ;)

Merryprankster

07-17-2002, 03:13 AM

Well, I think we disagree on the value of UFC and PRIDE w/respect to martial arts, but that's hardly worth arguing over :)

Royal Dragon

07-17-2002, 06:46 AM

Kou Shou
Restricted targets:
1 No throat or back of the head shots
2 No Groin Shots

Restricted actions:
1 No Ground fighting
2 No head butting or gouging

Wins are by points, knock out or submission (throwing in the towel, giving up etc)

1 point for clean strikes
2 points for throws where you stay standing but you opponent goes down
3 points for throwing, punching Kicking or anything that causes your opponet to go off the Leti

http://www.hsing-i.com/school_awards/index.html

Felipe Bido

07-17-2002, 09:16 AM

Royce would choke a Lei Tai platform...yes, he has long arms. (Chatroom in-joke :D)

Phrost

07-17-2002, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Kou Shou
Restricted targets:
1 No throat or back of the head shots
2 No Groin Shots

Restricted actions:
1 No Ground fighting
2 No head butting or gouging

Wins are by points, knock out or submission (throwing in the towel, giving up etc)

1 point for clean strikes
2 points for throws where you stay standing but you opponent goes down
3 points for throwing, punching Kicking or anything that causes your opponet to go off the Leti

http://www.hsing-i.com/school_awards/index.html

Umm...

"No Groundfighting"

Umm...

How is this more like a real fight?

The only pure form of competition that's reasonable is one that only makes rules to prevent fighters from killing or maiming each other.

Ie. no biting, eye gouging, groin shots, throat strikes, fish hooks.

That's about it.

And you know what? That's exactly what the first UFCs were, and that's exactly what real Vale Tudo fights are.

So why haven't more TMA's fought Vale Tudo? Why hide behind rules against groundfighting?

What are they afraid of?

Unlike most martial artists today, I plan on proving my skills against other people under rules like this. That's also why I train Muay Thai and BJJ, because I know they're effective in any situation, not just situations where the rules favor strikers.

Anyone can land a lucky punch, it's much harder to sink a lucky submission.

Again, you either need to get in the ring, and prove yourself, or shut the hell up.

That's why we have MMA.

Merryprankster

07-17-2002, 01:35 PM

Here are the rules for PRIDE, as far as illegal techniques.

Article 8
The following actions are deemed to be illegal. A fighter who commits these illegal actions hall be given a caution by the referee and such illegal action shall be a negative factor for decision. Third caution during the fight shall disqualify the fighter. The fighter shall be fined 10% of the fighting fee per caution payable to DSE.

Biting

Eye thumbing and eye gouging

Head butting

Attacking the groin

Pulling Hair

Pushing the windpipe with the thumb or finger (s) or squeezing the windpipe

Attacking the back of the head, the spine and/or the medulla (The back of the head is the centerline of the head and the area around the ears are not considered to be the back of the head.)

Using the elbows to attack the head or the face

Grabbing the ropes and refuse to release the ropes and/or hanging the limbs of the body (hand(s), arm(s), leg(s) or feet) over the rope intentionally. A fighter who places his upper arm over the rope shall be given a caution immediately.

Escaping to the outside of the ring

Throwing the opponent outside the ring

Stalling or failure to initiate any offensive or defensive attack.

Making no attempt to finish or damage the opponent.

So there you have it--Kuo Shu allows elbows to the face, but last I heard, you also wear cage head gear. Elbows cut and really bad cuts mean fight stoppages by doctor's decision. If they didn't, then they'd probably be allowed.

I think that's a pretty non-restrictive set of rules. Note that pressure points are allowed.

For the UFC: I can't find the official rules anywhere, however, I am 80% sure the following:

The cage can be used to prevent or facilitate takedowns.

cannot kick an opponent on all fours (if they lift even one arm though....)

You CAN, however, elbow the opponent in the head, provided that downward oriented elbow strikes executed with the point of the elbow are not done. So, horizontal slashing elbows, upwards elbows, and forearm strikes are all legal.

I am unclear if you can knee to the head on the ground.

To try and make up for the lack of kickstompkneeing the crap out of your grounded opponent, UFC institutes MUCH faster standups for "inactivity" on the ground... and inactivity is much more loosely defined. They expect a faster pace on the ground than PRIDE does. A wrestler cannot just lay there without actively working to pound you or submit you.

Merryprankster

07-17-2002, 01:50 PM

I found the USAWKF rules on their website. PLEASE tell me you weren't referring to these rules.

Using prohibited techniques, including:

Strikes to the back of the head, neck, throat, or crotch
Elbow or knee strikes
Striking opponent's head continuously to deliberately injure opponent
Use of excessive force to cause opponents to fall head over heels off the platform
Attacking a fallen opponent (except when an opponent falls deliberately as combat technique).

shinbushi

07-17-2002, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by Merryprankster

Oh yeah--no elbows. Oh well.

That is the one rule I hate. I feel if they allowed elbows you would see less time in the clinch and more interresting throws. Right now you have good striking and good ground but the transition(takedowns, throws) is kinda weak. once in a while you will see a good Greco takedown but not too much judo. I love throws especially quick throws (non hip). Maybe someday.

Royal Dragon

07-17-2002, 03:23 PM

Stalling or failure to initiate any offensive or defensive attack.

Reply]
So waiting until my opponent falls into emptyness is not allowed? What's the deal with that nonsense?

I have won many a fight by doing this continuolsy untill my opponent falls into emptyness, and then I go for the kill.

This is just another rule to force someone into abandoning good common sense strategy.

Shaolindynasty

07-17-2002, 03:49 PM

This arguement is ridiculous. It seems to be about nothing really. What's being argued, is it supposed to be about which SPORT imitates real fighting? These are both sport venues which can be good for testing skills and seeing what's effective but they aren't real fights that have hundreds of varibles etc.

Both of thses methods hold value for street defense and both are great in their respective arena's.

This "us vs. them" mentaity prevents anyone from learning (that's why bruce was against style according to his notes).

Although I don't like the way some traditional arts rest on hersay I also think the "fight records" can also be misleading. The professional(or amateur for that matter) fight game of any kind (boxing, kickboxing, muay thai, MMA) can be an extremely crooked business with fixed fights, crooked judges(roy jones losing in the olympics to a korean he soundly beat becasue the judges were korean for example).

The best judge of a style or methods effectiveness is your own common sense and experience period.

Phrost

07-17-2002, 06:05 PM

Unfortunately, many people in the MA community have very little common sense, and much less experience with real combat when life and limb were on the line.

So honestly, with all the myths, misinformation, and flat out lies and deception in the Martial Arts community, what solution would you create to the problem of a lack of verifiable information and hard facts?

Wouldn't it be an open style competition with very limited rules that would not affect the way an individual fighter would engage his opponent?

That's exactly what MMA is supposed to be.

And this isn't an "Us vs. Them" thing. The MMA community has been trying to explain this to TMA's for the past 10 years now.

If you're a martial artist, and you consider yourself good at fighting, then step in the ring/octagon/whatever, and prove your skill.

Hell, MMA rules nowadays with multiple rounds actually FAVOR strikers because it may take more than a few minutes for a groundfighter to sink a sub.

So why do so few TMA's compete in MMA? What are their excuses?

*It's not "Real" fighting. You're right, instead of getting choked to death by someone or having your limbs broken, you get to tap instead.

*The rules favor BJJ/Wrestling: WRONG, as stated above. Since the implementation of rounds, fighters have been focussing much more on striking.

*I can't use my most deadly attacks in MMA: I hate to break it to you, but years of training do not make you that much better at biting or poking people in the eyes.

The problem that many see with TMA's is that their "Masters" refuse to prove the effectiveness of their styles in front of the public, instead chosing to prove their styles on internet forums and magazine articles.

That's why they tend to get little respect. I'm not being mean here, or even antagonistic; just honest.

So in the light of a slew of lies, myths, and misinformation spread by McDojos, what else can you exect to go on but your own two eyes and videotaped (or live) MMA fights?

If you're an unbiased person and hear how the Grandmaster of one style defeated 10 armed guys at the same time with just his hands, and you watch Jason Delucia tapping like a typewriter to Royce Gracie, which are you going to believe?

By the way Shaolindynasty, you study Choy Lay Fut? You might know my old Sifu then :D

Braden

07-17-2002, 06:27 PM

Emotional content used as a tool to more quickly describe the position. Please don't take it as anything more.

"If you're a martial artist, and you consider yourself good at fighting, then step in the ring/octagon/whatever, and prove your skill."

Prove my skill to who, you? I don't give a **** what you think. Do you care what I think? Where's the proof of your skill?

"So why do so few TMA's compete in MMA? What are their excuses?"

Excuse for what, not competing in a sporting event? Do you hang around gyms and if you see someone lifting weights go up to them and say, 'You're a ****ing bum. If you were any good, you'd be in the strongman competition'?

"The problem that many see with TMA's is that their 'Masters' refuse to prove the effectiveness of their styles in front of the public, instead chosing to prove their styles on internet forums and magazine articles."

You're confused. My teacher doesn't give a **** what you think. Why should he? He'll never meet you, you're just one in six billion. He doesn't prove himself on internet forums, he proves himself in person to people who want to learn from him. What about your teacher? Is he worried what I think? If we apply this logic to him, where's the proof he's any good?

Stone Monkey

07-17-2002, 06:29 PM

Grappling (from Marc 'Animal' MacYoung's excellent site: www.nononsenseselfdefense.com )

I have taken extreme flak from people about my views on grappling. Usually these people are grappling proponents and believe that my answers are too simplistic. Well, as long as we are talking about simple, I have three basic standards:

1) If you end up on the ground against someone trying to seriously hurt you, you ****ed up
2) Get up immediately
3) Submission fighting is to be used only on people who you want to control, *not* hurt (e.g. a drunk friend)

Does this mean I am "against" grappling? Does it mean I don't think it's worth learning? Does this mean I am inexperienced on the ground? No.

What it does mean, however, is that I have experience with issues that grappling's "true believers" don't like to look at. That experience -- including watching a guy get "stomped" by upwards of twenty people while on the ground (he spent six months in the hospital) -- makes me a little leery about the universal applicability of "groundfighting."_ That and other factors_ is what we are going to discuss.

Why is grappling effective?
In his book The High Crusade Poul Anderson speculated on what would happen if an advanced alien species attempted to conquer earth immediately after the Crusades. The premise of the book was that these aliens had become extremely adept at long-range, artillery-type warfare. They were shocked and confused when the knights, instead of hanging back and attempting to do battle at a distance, charged them and overwhelmed their positions. This simple, savage strategy worked only because the aliens had lost the ability to effectively fight at close quarters.

The success of grappling is due, in a large part, to the failure of sports-based martial arts in the West. Ever since the introduction of gloved boxing, sport fighting has moved away from the old "bare knuckle/London rules" form. That kind of pugilism was designed to prevent clinches, headbutts, purring and a whole host of other vicious in-close tricks associated with their version of grappling. The addition of padded gloves prevented many of these moves. And in time, sport fighting became a "sniping" game. Opponents do not rush each other, but hang back and exchanged blows and kicks from a distance.

And in doing so, they forgot that an opponent could charge in.

Wrestling and grappling are very popular sporting events in South America, however. Brazilian Jujitsu matches are packed events. These fighters hadn't forgotten about charging in -- but it was still a sport. And that means it had events, rules, weight division, safety equipment and organizations to give ranks, belts and titles.

In the first Ultimate Fighting Championship, Northern Hemisphere fighters were just run over. Like the aliens in Anderson's book, they had forgotten that this kind of fighting even existed, much less had the vaguest idea how to counter it.

People flocked to the Gracie Jujitsu Academy(s) and other Brazilian Jujitsu schools to fill this hole in their training. You will notice, however, their reputation made, the Gracies withdrew from the later UFC events. We can safely assume that by that time, Northern Hemisphere fighters had begun to watch tapes, study their moves to discover ways to counter.

In short, both the shock -- and the new -- had worn off and people once again remembered that grappling was an issue to be dealt with.

This is not to disparage the Gracies, they are fine athletes and, in their time, they ruled the ring. But, as they introduced a new and evolutionary change to sports fighting, other people have continued to do evolve and introduce new developments -- including ways to counter their changes. Thus is the cycle of the martial arts, they is always changing and evolving to meet "new" influences.

It is never static, it is always changing. And sometimes what is "new" is something that is actually old, but left behind because people had founda counter. Often until the counter is rediscovered this will create the latest fad in martial arts training.

Where doesn't grappling work?
While it is important to know how to keep your head when you go to the ground, let's start by saying that if groundfighting was all that effective, armies would lie down when they fought. As a matter of fact, they wouldn't carry weapons, instead they'd use submission holds and mounting positions to defeat the other army's soldiers.

Since that is not the case, we must assume that grappling is not as universally effective as its proponents would claim.*

To truly understand where submission fighting doesn't work, we must understand where it does work. (And I will admit works spectacularly).

1) In a one-on-one confrontation
2) In an open, but limited, space
3) On padded, clear surfaces
4) Without weapons
5) With rules
6) When people aren't trying to kill each other

In otherwords, in a sporting event.

We can also say that it works under *very* limited conditions in a 'real' fight. But it has to be a very specific kind of confrontation._ In fact, it could be termed "a friendly" fight._ But you can't rely on an altercation being of this kind.

So let's look at the elements, or more specifically the issues that *will* undermine grappling's effectiveness.

Multiple opponents - Trouble most often runs in packs. If you don't plan to face multiple opponents, you are not really training for self defense. Seldom will a friend watch another friend be defeated without making at least a token effort to join help. That is human nature, and ignoring it is a dangerous mistake -- especially since a friend's help can often be in the form of a bottle or a rock. Since you are involved on the ground in a one-on-one contest with all your limbs engaged and limited mobility you are vulnerable to a second attack from above. There is also the issue -- in less reputable locations -- of spectators joining in and kicking you both ... just for the fun of it.

Furniture, curbs and other people - While the floor work itself may not take a lot of room, going down usually does. Objects such as tables, chairs and bystanders pose chances of serious injury if you fall onto them -- especially if you have someone else's body weight driving you there.

Asphalt, rocks, bottles, etc. - Many "going to the ground" techniques are designed to work on pads, mats and smooth floors. Seldom do these conditions exist outside the dojo. A slap fall on asphalt will not only tear up your hand, but it can result in a shattered bones. Hitting concrete with another person landing on top of you is a painful -- often fight stopping -- experience. Now you may think "that is the idea," but that is assuming that you are controlling the fall. A cagey fighter might not let you land on top of him, and that makes it as much your problem as his. Then there is the issue of bottles and glasses that you might land on. While you might at first think, "there aren't glasses/bottles/etc laying on the floor of the bar," that's under normal conditions, but if someone tackles you and you run into another person or tip over a table, those items can and will be knocked to the ground at the same speed as you.

Without weapons - This is even more dangerous than assuming that you will only be fighting one person at a time. Once weapons come into play, it is no longer fighting, it's combat. The ground is the absolute *last* place you want to be with an armed opponent.

-end of part one

Stone Monkey

07-17-2002, 06:31 PM

Rules - Although the UFC was touted as "no rules," or more specifically "no holds barred," many of the more nasty and brutal moves were banned. Until you have endured these moves, it is easy to assume that you can "tough them out." Experience proves differently. Many of these techniques are so savage that people don't believe others would stoop so low -- and are therefore unprepared to handle them. This utterly undermines the assertion of many grapplers that "Well, we can do them too!"_

It isn't a matter of "too" it is a matter of who does it first, as many of these moves are fight stoppers.

Not trying to kill each other - Grappling is probably best understood as dominating your opponent. It is used to subdue and force him to submit. That is a social function, it is not, however, combat. In combat, you are not trying to prove anything, you are not trying to force compliance. You are trying to kill him before he kills you. There are severe psychological differences in intent. And you fight totally differently. A fight with a drunken friend that you are trying to control (or prove he is out of line) is not the same as some evil ******* coming at you with intent to kill you.

If you know where groundfighting is effective, you can then deduce where it isn't safe -- and why.

Don't fight his fight
Staying in a groundfight with a grappler is guaranteed to get your ass kicked.

It is where his fighting style is designed to work best. He has the home field advantage, and all the moves that will trap you. The longer you stay on the ground with a grappler, the more chances you give him to use his tactical advantage against you.

This is where my first two rules regarding grappling come into effect.

If you couldn't stop or avoid the rush, you weren't in control of your long-range weapons. Lack of control can be directly traced to a lack of understanding about those very tools. You didn't control the range, nor did you understand those things that could have saved you from being taken down: structure and mobility. These elements while critical in a real fight, are not needed or understood in sport fighting. But that is a massive can of worms and is beyond the scope of this Web site. What I can say is, most often, the error wasn't in what you did per se, but rather in your training. If your instructor doesn't know it, there is no way he could teach you.

What I can tell you, is that the second rule applies in spades. You need to get out of the grappler's preferred range. Even if the person you are fighting is not a grappler, the get-up rule still applies due to danger from his friends and vicious on-lookers.

To this end, I heartily recommend you inflict some kind of intense and savage pain. While he is reeling from it, you use the opportunity to scramble back up to your feet. That is going to be your only window of opportunity. This is significantly different than trying to fight your way out of the situation. If you attempt to fight through his tactics, you will be defeated. Remember, these are his strengths, contesting them is not going to work unless you are a superior grappler. Your safest strategy is *not* to play his game. Get back to where your strengths are.

When to use grappling
The purpose of ground fighting is to subdue an opponent and establish dominance. It is my heartfelt opinion that there are only two reasonable applications for grappling skills. And within these parameters, it is wonderful.

Those are:
1) When you don't want to hurt the guy
2) If it's your job to restrain and control someone

1) Not hurting your opponent - You friend is drunk and out of control. Because he is your friend, you don't want to snap him like a matchstick. Or it is some stupid, college-aged kid who is trying to impress people by picking a fight with you. In a nice restaurant, some ******* swung on you because you didn't back down or give into his unreasonable demands. These low-level threats are not situations where you want to gouge out somebody's eye or snap his neck. It is neither warranted, nor legally justified to use an extreme level of force.

This is where grappling utterly shines. You can control and dominate such an opponent, and, if the police show up, you can easily justify your use of force.

2) It's your job to use control tactics in protection of property or others - When everyone is doing the smart thing and running away, it is your job to do the stupid thing of charging into the conflict. Then yes. You do need to know how to handle yourself on the ground. You do need to know control and restraint tactics. Usually, however, your job will also have very specific standards for use of force and restraint tactics. You will need to be well versed in departmentally approved defensive tactics, control holds and use of force continuums. Additional training in grappling is a wonderful adjunct to this training. With this in mind, I would highly recommend taking a trip to the LEO section of this Web site.

These two conditions provide the optimum application of ground fighting.

However, when you have several sociopathic gangbangers coming at you, a knife-wielding mugger threatening your life or are in a large, unruly crowd, you *don't* want to try to grapple. In fact, you don't even want to try to fight. Escape should be your number one priority. Charging in and wrestling him to the ground, doesn't conform to the definition of escape.

Should you learn floorfighting?
Absolutely

In fact, not learning how to function on a basic level when on the ground is foolish. While I honestly disagree with the contention that "90 percent of all fights end up on the ground," that doesn't mean that they don't go there. (The reason I feel the Gracies can accurately make that claim is because they "take" their fights there. It is a true statement with them. It is not however universally true). But enough fights *do* go to the ground that it is important to know how to function there - at least long enough to safely get up.

Just don't get caught up in the fantasy of thinking it is the ultimate fighting system.

-Marc MacYoung

Merryprankster

07-17-2002, 07:26 PM

How did this devolve into an argument about groundfighting?

This is VERY specific--the insinuation was somehow that the rules are more restrictive than Kuo Shu or San Shou--both of which are acceptable venues for Kung Fu fighters. But the rules for Pride, etc, make MMA disadvantaged venues?

Royal--it takes a LOT to get a stalling call. What they are talking about is a failure to engage at all. If you want to play a defensive game, picking and choosing your shots, or even just playing defense the entire time that's one thing. But if you are actively and extensively refusing to engage (like turning your back and running away) then you'll get disqualified. If you want to slip shots and defend kicks and takedowns all round, feel free. You'll not get a stalling call even if you never attack the entire round, as long as you are not running away (vice using a defensive, counterpunch type strategy.) Heck, some fighters with lousy takedown skills have buttscooted their way around the ring and not been called for stalling, when they can't match their opponents standup skills.

Are you telling me that in a full contact Kuo Shu or San Shou match, a person wouldn't be disqualified for turning tail and running from the opponent? Because THAT is what it takes to get a stalling call.

Normally, I like what you have to say, but LMAO at trying to use the rules to demonstrate that KF is disadvantaged in the MMA ring, and then picking this particularly lame-ass argument. This falls squarely under excuse, vice reason.

I'd have a lot less problem if you just said "Hey, most Kung Fu guys aren't interested in this, and that's just the way it is. They'd rather compete in Kuo Shu and San Shou..."

But to make a perfectly ignorant statement about "the rules" in general, be shown that PRIDE Rules, at least, allow the kneeing and stomping and headkicks on the ground that you originally claimed was the limiting factor, and then come back with something like this... :rolleyes:

Do I think that the ring mirrors a streetfight? No. Neither does the Kwoon or a sparring session. Do I think that demonstration of skill in the ring is a requirement to be successful in the street? Absolutely not. Do I think that some venues might not be ideal for somebody trained in a particular style? Absolutely. If you have a style that relies very heavily on elbow strikes, you might not like PRIDE Rules. If you have a style that focuses on stomping opponents on all fours, then you might not find UFC rules to your liking.

But, strictly from a MMA rules restrict Kung Fu fighters but Kuo Shu/San Shou rules are ok--that's just utter crap, and completely unjustifiable.

Braden

07-17-2002, 07:46 PM

"But, strictly from a MMA rules restrict Kung Fu fighters but Kuo Shu/San Shou rules are ok--that's just utter crap, and completely unjustifiable."

Well, it's true in the sense that CMA's don't teach any floorfighting, and you don't need any to compete in koushou/sanshou. :D

Merryprankster

07-17-2002, 07:50 PM

LOL :D

Shaolindynasty

07-17-2002, 08:08 PM

Phrost- You missunderstand. I wasn't using the "competitions aren't real fights" excuse. What I was trying to say was that BOTH MMA competition and Koushou/sanshou competition have merit when it comes to testing your skill for real self defense. I also was trying to say the arguement over which is more real is kind of ridiculous. MMA tournaments promote the practice of effective technique just like the practice of san shou/koushou/sanda is supposed to promote effective technique.

What I was trying to say about records not being an effective way to judge a style I stand by. Luckly in today's modern world we can order a tape of the event and see for ourselves what happened. So I agree sport events like this do help to judge effective technique but I don't follow fight records for the reasons I listed before.

I wouldn't "step into the ring" of an event like UFC or Pride because i am not in that kind of fighting condition. I may be pretty good at fighting but aren't those guys supposed to be the cream of the MMA crop? I don't think I'm up to their standards in physical conditioning. I'd like to see Cung Le fight in one though.

"And this isn't an "Us vs. Them" thing."

It shouldn't be but it degrades into that, both sides are guilty of doing this.

BTW, I haven't been studing CLF long(about 5 months) and don't know any CLF guys outside of my sifu's school, but I probally know of your sifu.

Merryprankster

07-17-2002, 08:15 PM

I would like to state, for the record two things:

1. Most of us in MMA would LOVE to see Marvin Perry and Cung Le fight MMA!

2. I have no problem with San Shou/Kuo Shu, nor do I consider MMA to be a more "realisitc" venue than San Shou/Kuo Shu. I was taking specific issue with the idea that MMA rules are somehow limiting when the other sets are, in fact, very similar or even MORE limiting.

Shaolindynasty

07-17-2002, 08:34 PM

All sporting events have rules and some do favor certain types of fighting but i don't see why CMA guys couldn't train for MMA comps. The thing is MMA tournys aren't usually on the top of the list in a CMA's intrests. I read an interveiw with cung le and he was asked if he was going to compete in a MMA fight soon and he said probally not because he wants to promote san shou. Most CMA guys want to promote their own events first and we all know that training for a MMA fight is a full time activity.

It's difficult because if a CMA guy wanted to fight in MMA he would have to develop some new types of defense or at least work on ones he knows againts grappleing. This is the problem once he goes outside of CMA and trains in a groundfighting art some says "he isn't a traditional kungfu guy".

So really the rules aren't the problem it's more that they need to prepare for that kind of opponent without learning groundfighting(so they will still be considered "traditional") Very difficult to do isn't it.

BTW, Most guys I know and consider traditional (including myself) train at least alittle in different arts including groundfighting. Traditional doesn't mean to me being closed minded and running a "mcdojo". Being traditional is using what works because in the old days that's what they did to win, reguardless of where they learned it.

SDriver

07-18-2002, 05:37 AM

I just wanted to mention some things about the pasted article, which I thought was a pretty level-headed piece.

1. Training in grappling helps keep one from going to the ground if one doesn't want to. In my experience, the only "mobility" training that will keep your butt off the ground is track and field.
2. Those submissions aren't pain compliance techniques for the most part. Some are, most aren't, because of the widely recognized fact that an amped up opponent doesn't give a squirt about a bicep pinch. But you don't have to stop a "submission" technique when the joint hyperextends or when the vision gets blurry. You snap the thing or knock them out. In a "real fight," you keep going, and because you trained to know where the "breaking point" is, you know how far to go and how to get there fast.
3. Getting out of a grappler's range. Well, if you get out of my range, why the heck would I follow you to fight you? Fight's over. Walk off. I'm not just going to chase some guy around to fight him, especially on "the street."

I believe the most important point to remember is the first one. In my experience, the people who are best at avoiding takedowns are the same people who are best at performing them. If you've got a good mastery of position, it's harder for some goon to put you on your butt, unless of course you want to flop there. ;) Seriously, I often hear complicated explanations of "how to defend against a grappler" when a simple sprawl-and-get-away would work like gangbusters.

All in all, though, that article was what I consider "good" -- non-reactionary, well-reasoned stuff from the other side of the fence. Just wanted to put in my two cents.

Phrost

07-19-2002, 12:27 PM

Hey Shaolin,

Your article is up on the site, and I put it up on the front page as news with a link to it.

Thanks for contributing, and I'm glad you get what we're all about over there.

Regardless of my personal views, I would hate to see traditional martial arts all labeled as McDojo arts by the growing MMA community. The only way to combat this trend is to present lucid arguments and verifiable facts towards that end.

Thanks again,

Phrost

Braden

07-19-2002, 01:35 PM

Phrost,

If you want lucid responses, you should state a lucid position.

Phrost

07-19-2002, 04:55 PM

Originally posted by Braden
Phrost,

If you want lucid responses, you should state a lucid position.

My point was completely lucid. It's you who live in a dreamland where your Sifu can miraculously KO people using Dim Mak.

You're exactly right about your Sifu having nothing to prove, because he has nothing to keep him from getting stomped into the ground by a real fighter.

How many times have you used your art in a life or death situation?

I was a soldier for 7 years and I can tell you that my Wushu training was next to useless in a real fight. I can also tell you that most "fighting oriented" Kung Fu is pretty much useless as well when you're on the ground.

It's delusional martial artists like you that we're targeting with our website. That's why you're having such a reaction to it, it's obvious.

Kung Fu does not protect your from a stronger, more skilled groundfighter. Hell, it doesn't protect you from a smaller, weaker one either.

The reason you, your sifu, and 90% of the Traditional Martial Arts "Masters" won't step into a ring isn't that you don't feel you should prove your arts to anyone;

it's because you can't.

rubthebuddha

07-19-2002, 05:03 PM

braden -- don't ask for someone's position. all they'll do is just state their opinion and not back it up. you got it right earlier -- ask for their argument. that requires something resembling evidence.

Braden

07-19-2002, 05:09 PM

"It's you who live in a dreamland where your Sifu can miraculously KO people using Dim Mak."

Where on earth did you get this idea?

"You're exactly right about your Sifu having nothing to prove, because he has nothing to keep him from getting stomped into the ground by a real fighter."

Where did you get this knowledge of my teacher?

"I was a soldier for 7 years and I can tell you that my Wushu training was next to useless in a real fight."

You and I both know soldiering has almost no connection with martial arts, in the typical sense of the word (including BJJ, Muay Thai, etc).

"It's delusional martial artists like you that we're targeting with our website."

What am I delusional about? You haven't the faintest idea what my belief set is, but you're making assertions about it.

And what on earth could my delusions be, such that hearing 'Mat Furey is fat' is going to cure them!?

"That's why you're having such a reaction to it, it's obvious."

I'm guessing you missed or misunderstood the first sentance of my post where I pointed out that any emotional reaction in the writing was solely to facilitate making the point, and that I meant to imply no actual emotional reaction. There, I just reiterated it.

"The reason you, your sifu, and 90% of the Traditional Martial Arts 'Masters' won't step into a ring isn't that you don't feel you should prove your arts to anyone;

it's because you can't."

And again, where are you getting this knowledge from?

... Your entire post was nothing but ascribing beliefs to me which arose from nothing but your own preconcieved notions. This, since you're so interested in throwing the word around, is the basic mechanism of delusion.

Moreover, you failed (despite my explicit prompting) to supply any information which proves (by your definition) your and/or your teacher's skill.

So not only do you ascribe beliefs to others and then judge them on it, you also fail to judge yourself by the same standards. Tell me more about who lives in a fantasy (sorry, had to have at least one sarcastic remark).

I've looked at your site. Your critique of Mat Furey is entirely based around the assertion that "he is fat." If you were trying to be funny, you would simply be failing. I get the impression you take yourself seriously though. You want to talk about delusion? Believing that three pages discussing how someone "is fat" is an example of fact-based journalism; dispelling myths by bringing knowledge to the masses. As an ironic sidebar, he's not even fat.

Braden

07-19-2002, 05:12 PM

RTB - I'm happy to show flaws in either his position or his argument, since both are ridiculous.

Phrost

07-19-2002, 05:32 PM

Well I'm impressed by your well thought out and eloquent reply. Someone took the freshman course in Philosophy, didn't he?

And you're right, I, personally, do not know what you are capable of.

But I'd love to find out.

I'd also like to interject a bit of logic here myself:

If you didn't have a point to make, you wouldn't have responded.

Simple, sublime, yet true.

By the way, I havent written anything on that site, outside of a few posts and news updates. The site is 100% user-submitted content, so if you have a gripe about it, take it up with the author.

As far as ascribing beliefs to others, 9 times out of 10 it's a safe bet when someone's invested a certain ammount of time studying Kung Fu. My mistake may simply be that you're the exception to the rule and in that case, congratulations, but you're still mistaken if you think any form of Kung Fu is superior to crosstraining that involves groundfighting.

Again, if you have issues with the content, submit some of your own.

If you had nothing to "prove" you would not be discussing this.

Braden

07-19-2002, 05:33 PM

BTW Phrost, by 'wushu' do you mean specifically 'wushu', or are you using the word loosely?

Braden

07-19-2002, 05:39 PM

"If you didn't have a point to make, you wouldn't have responded."

And of course, I did have a point to make, which is why I did respond. I'm not sure where the discrepency is here. :confused:

"The site is 100% user-submitted content, so if you have a gripe about it, take it up with the author."

You said previously that the web site was targetted at 'delusional martial artists' such as me. Presumably, there was some meaning in that statement. When I challenged the content of your website, I was challenging that statement.

"but you're still mistaken if you think any form of Kung Fu is superior to crosstraining that involves groundfighting."

I've never said such a thing. Kung Fu, like Muay Thai, most certainly won't prepare you to fight a groundfighter on the ground. In fact, I posted almost those exact words (not about MT) on another thread earlier today, in response to some Kung Fu guys suggesting the opposite.

"If you had nothing to 'prove' you would not be discussing this."

I assume here you're confusing the idea of 'prove' in terms of proof of martial skill and the idea you brought up above, regarding whether or not I had a point in posting. These are two different ideas. My point in posting was to argue the invalidity of what you said.

Braden

07-19-2002, 06:24 PM

Just FYI, the video you recently posted to your site "mmavskungfu.zip" doesn't involve a kungfu practitioner.

And since you didn't clarify, I'll just make the point: the term wushu used in north america is used to describe a modern version of dance and gymnastics based on martial arts forms. One shouldn't expect it to be much use in a "real fight."

Since you don't seem to be interested in chinese martial arts, it's probably not surprising that you didn't know this stuff. But since you seem to be interested in clarifying misconceptions... well, just to let you know.

SifuAbel

07-19-2002, 07:23 PM

Originally posted by Phrost
..... The only way to combat this trend is to present lucid arguments and verifiable facts towards that end.

Thanks again,

Phrost

You forgot to add "at my web site" to the end of your post. This is, afterall, what you're here for. To promote your site. So far you've gone from "PC" host of a web page to a groundfighting promotional machine. I have news for you. One prejudiced web site against other arts won't make them dissappear. I'm with braden, where do you get any information about what some of us do? From your but? Assumptions and generalizations are ignorance. You are even comparing modern wushu to armed combat. Which is just plain silly. And, it shows how little you about kung fu in general. Dim mak indeed(sarcasm), thats a sure sign of regergitated retarded information.

So now that you've shown your true colors, let me ask you this, why should any of us support your web page when we already get enough grief from grappleheads like you here on KFO?

Gee, Thats what I want, to go to web page where every single memeber IS Ralek.

Hau Tien

07-20-2002, 12:12 AM

This guy's a troll, folks. And you're simply feeding him. The only difference is that he's a troll with a website he can use to bash other arts.

He's obviously dropped any facade of being civil any longer, and has shown that while he can word things in a clear manner, he is obviously just here to garner hits for his web site.

My advice? Let the thread die, and his attitude along with it.

Just my opinion... but I'm not even going to bother reading this thread anymore...

Crimson Phoenix

07-20-2002, 01:29 AM

See?? Now you DO prove that for you TMA, all TMA, are McDojo...ppfffff...yes, go, continue on studying your almighty grappling, we are just too foolish to see why grappling is the ultimate style, so let us train in our fantasies...and you, keep on having your own.

SifuAbel

07-20-2002, 03:11 AM

Originally posted by Phrost

If you're an unbiased person and hear how the Grandmaster of one style defeated 10 armed guys at the same time with just his hands, and you watch Jason Delucia tapping like a typewriter to Royce Gracie, which are you going to believe?

It never ceases to amaze me how this guys facts are based on a fight that included someone that was very questionably kung fu(probably wasn't) and was somewhat ok(so so) until he got his elbow locked. So Lucia becomes the poster child for eternity. One fight, one time and it proves it for all time. Yet your own heros lose to each other on a daily basis back and forth. What I don't get is how did you prove that the master in question DIDN'T do what he did. He wasn't fighting 10 super men, he was fighting 10 thugs. Which of those scenarios seems more likely to you?

The numbers just don't add up. You can count the number of supposed kung fu people in these events on your finger tips and they only fought once. And, the venue has mostly attacted people from the same background for the last ten years. Wake up, buddy!! All the kung fu guys are elsewhere doing their own thing to make a name for themselves like all your heros on PPV.

I can't be in the UFC , I don't do enough steroids.

The more I think about it the more I realize that too much importance is given to sport martial arts. When a person enters a MA school the LAST thing on their mind is getting into ring with some super jock. They want to get healthy. They want to know enough to stay alive when they get mugged by crackhead joe. Whom, btw, isn't an NHB fighter. Its only those like on this board, the extreme fight fan, that even gives a lump if vitor or ortiz walks away with the belt this week and then gives it back the next. We have strayed too far from what MA is actually trying to do, getting regular people to have skills enough to live another day. Mcdojos do exist, but they exist for every art. It shouldn't diminish those who teach with real skills. I think we should place our focus on whats important. Give our attention back to the public many, rather than focusing on the sport few.

Doing a grappling based art doesn't automatically make you stonger, faster or better. I'm darn sure that there are slow, weak and stupid people somewhere in your world.

SifuAbel

07-21-2002, 01:41 AM

ttt

I thinhk phrost got iced.

Phrost

07-23-2002, 12:06 PM

I'm still around, thanks. It's tough to run that website, train, and do all the other daily things and get back to respond to people on the internet as often as I like to.

Anyway, no, I'm not a troll. I'm actually trying to avoid saying anything that resembles a trollish comment.

I do have to apologize for allowing myself to get suckered into a MMA/TMA argument because that's not the reason I came over here in the first place. Somewhere in the discussion I fell into flame mode, and that was not my intent.

The idea for McDojo.com is simple. We wanted a user-based site where people can submit complaints about martial arts instructors, schools, etc, so that others don't have to make the same mistakes, and to increase the knowledge level of the public when it comes to Martial Arts in general. We want to be the Better Business Bureau of MA.

Yes, there is a MMA slant, because a lot of us practice "MMA Styles" like Muay Thai, BJJ, Shootfighting, etc. This is simply the result of the fact that the site was concieved at the Abu Dhabi Combat Club, and many of the initial contributors and visitors were from those forums.

I've said it several times but I feel the need to repeat it: Regardless of my personal opinions, or anyone else's, we WANT participation from Traditional Martial Artists in order to present a balanced opinion. If you don't particularly care for the site, that's fine. But if you have a opinion about the subject of money-hungry frauds in MA, you're encouraged to share it with us there so we can centralize everyone's thoughts on the subject.

If anyone has any questions, gripes, or a beef with the site, they're more than welcome to email me directly (phrost@mcdojo.com), or if you want, post them in this thread. I'll do my best to respond to everything, provided it's presented as constructive commentary.

Phrost,
Lead Admin www.McDojo.com

SifuAbel

07-23-2002, 12:22 PM

"I do have to apologize for allowing myself to get suckered into a MMA/TMA argument because that's not the reason I came over here in the first place. Somewhere in the discussion I fell into flame mode, and that was not my intent."

Could have fooled us. Your true colors are clear. I wouldn't try to redeem yourself in this crowd if I were you.

I love your T shirts.(NOT) Kung F.U., thats nice.
tae kwon don't, oh really fair.

the best one is the prices one, that one at least is about mcdojo and not style bashing. :rolleyes:

Lets call a duece a duece. You think what you do is the "ultimate". I hope thats not because you are indirectly related to somebody else that won something. Champion by proxy. You can drop the superiority complex while your at it too.

rogue

07-23-2002, 12:53 PM

Regardless of my personal views, I would hate to see traditional martial arts all labeled as McDojo arts by the growing MMA community. That's the first step to the spawning of McDojo's. Just wait until someone starts a movement to get MMA into the Olympics, at that point you might as well start wearing silk PJ's.:D

KC Elbows

07-23-2002, 01:11 PM

Phrost,

Not to continue the chaos, but don't you think the following statements sort of counter your attempt to draw another view to your website?:

"As far as ascribing beliefs to others, 9 times out of 10 it's a safe bet when someone's invested a certain ammount of time studying Kung Fu."

"The reason you, your sifu, and 90% of the Traditional Martial Arts "Masters" won't step into a ring isn't that you don't feel you should prove your arts to anyone; it's because you can't.”

However, to point out the flaw in communication that you accidentaly made use of, the above posts both confirm your strong belief that ten percent of the serious kung fu practitioners are good fighters, yet you made no attempt to assume that any kung fu practitioner you were speaking with might be in this ten per cent. In fact, it seems like you feel that ten percent might just be a fluke. At the same time, you leave unsaid exactly what percentage of MMA are worth listening to on the topic of martial artist. What percentage of MMA would you say are great fighters?

However, you have already posted an apology for the flaming, which is good.

To show that you are unbiased, could you answer some questions?

Has your site ever featured any schools of the following styles as being bad schools:

-BJJ
-Kali/Escrima
-JKD
-Muay Thai

If not, are you willing to say the above arts have absolutely no bad instructors running schools, or are your views more realistic, and either 1)some schools from each have been lampooned, or 2)Of course not, there's no bad schools in those arts, and darnit, I'm unbiased!(Just kidding)

Also, is there anything on your site promoting the same scrutiny of MMA that is placed on TMA?

Do you recognize san shou and kuoshu as valid competitions? And, do you think you could beat champions from such tourneys in challenge matches? If not, does that mean that your MMA is from a McDojo, or merely that they might be better fighters than you?

I think with some adjustments, your site could be effective in its endeavour, but you are correct in your belief that it could use the presence of the ten percent of TMA that are worthwhile, just as it could benefit from weeding out a few of the less productive/lucid mixed martial artists that frequent it(not making a sweeping generalization, there's just a couple numbskulls).

I understand that you are busy, and look forward to your response.

KC Elbows

07-23-2002, 01:22 PM

"you're still mistaken if you think any form of Kung Fu is superior to crosstraining that involves groundfighting."

So, by turning that around, we can now say:

"you're still mistaken if you think any form of BJJ is superior to crosstraining that involves stand up work."

Am I correct that there are bjj teachers out there who just teach bjj? Are those mcdojos?

What about escrimadoras who just teach escrima?

Your original point is not necessarily mistaken, but there is a problem in the logic that seems to be used to determine what exactly is a mcdojo. Is any school of fighting whose practitioners cannot beat the best ring fighters in ring fights a mcdojo?

Tell you what, any thug can swing a chain. Seeing as some kung fu guys are proficient with the chainwhip, and MMA fails to address this, does that make MMA schools in a sweeping manner mcdojos? I don't think so, but a number of your arguments and those of certain people on your site would seem to infer that, yes, they are mcdojos.

Or do you think chains don't get used in real fights?:D

Don't take me too seriously, just framing valid questions in a facetious manner.

EDIT: Just got back from your site, and yes, there are some MMA teachers who have been criticized. Of course, your members don't use them as evidence of the uselessness of MMA.:rolleyes:

For what it's worth, while I have no problem with your site, it's fine, but your shirts do suck, really. Trucker chicks wouldn't even touch a guy wearing that geeky stuff, much less women with all of their teeth.

However, the layout's not bad, and people seem to be enjoying your forums, so good effort. I think it's got promise, but I think you need to be a little pickier on the articles you put up, free or no. Some are good, some are just cluttering your webspace.

Also, some of the contests need to be adjusted. By having a "McDojo Award MMA Champion of the Year" or whatever, you are giving fighters awards that make them sound like fakes, and I don't think that's your intent.

rogue

07-23-2002, 02:01 PM

involves groundfighting In the version of TKD that I study we train to fight from the ground against a standing opponent using kicks, trips and graps, we also train to fight against someone who is also on the ground using kicks, graps and hand strikes, all with the goal of allowing us to regain our feet and do the next logical thing (run, kick the guy in the head, etc...). While I'm not comparing what we do to BJJ, would you consider what we do to have a ground fighting component.

PS This has been in ITF TKD since it was formalized, though I believe it's been mostly forgotten by most US instructors.

Phrost

07-23-2002, 04:11 PM

Originally posted by KC Elbows
Phrost,

Has your site ever featured any schools of the following styles as being bad schools:

-BJJ
-Kali/Escrima
-JKD
-Muay Thai

If not, are you willing to say the above arts have absolutely no bad instructors running schools, or are your views more realistic, and either 1)some schools from each have been lampooned, or 2)Of course not, there's no bad schools in those arts, and darnit, I'm unbiased!(Just kidding)

Actually, if we find a BJJ/etc McDojo we'll call a spade a spade, no problem. Just because someone "teaches" BJJ, that doesn't mean they're exempt from scrutiny.

I'm just popping in to respond to this (I skimmed everything else but I'll get back to it when I can) but we're not trying to foster a BJJ > ALL environment or anything of the like. Hell, we have people registered that do nothing other than argue about how inadequate the art is on the street.

I'll get back to this thread as soon as I can.

Phrost

Royal Dragon

07-23-2002, 06:28 PM

If a Traditional guy crossed a little in Muy Tai and Bjj to prepare for a fight, would the MMA's consider him a traditional fighter if he lost and a fellow MMA if he won?

SifuAbel

07-24-2002, 12:46 AM

Phrost is doing a duck and cover. I guess kc was too much for him.

Notice he answered the question as vaguely as possible but still alluding to the "there are no bad BJJ schools" corner.

"if we find a BJJ/etc McDojo we'll call a spade a spade"

Royal Dragon

07-24-2002, 04:32 AM

I read that as "IF" we find a BJJ/etc McDojo we'll call a spade a spade.

As if to say it would be hard to find a BJJ Mcdojo (Jojo :p )

That may be true now, but Bjj is young, if we give it 5-6 years or so, there will be Bjj Mcdojo's everywhere.

rogue

07-24-2002, 06:59 AM

I don't see too many BJJ McDojo popping up to soon. Given their habit of rolling all the time I think a charlaten would come under close scrutiny pretty quick. And it's like 6 degree of separation, it's easy to track someones credentials. Heck even I can connect to Pedro Saur in two moves, so if I tried to pass myself off as knowing BJJ I'd be nailed faster than Rolls in the shower of a prison.

I do think we'll see a bunch of MMA McDojo very soon. No lineage(which BJJ has in spades), you don't have to compete(it's a street MMA), nothing to compare one system of MMA to another, you don't even need a system just a bunch of techniques. OK maybe it's better if you won some very obscure tournament, but that's the group I see most likely to spawn McDojos.

Royal Dragon

07-24-2002, 10:33 AM

"I was a soldier for 7 years and I can tell you that my Wushu training was next to useless in a real fight."

Hey, what about Master Steven Abbate? Decorated war hero, got the Silver Start I believe. Why? you ask? Because he was in the trenches, and 14 Viet Cong "Tried" to dislodge him. He Killed them all WILE WOUNDED AND UN ARMED!!!! With Traditinal Kung Fu that he learned from a Traditional Chinese Master here in Chicago.

So "Frost", you can just blow me.......................

Also, sorry you were stupid enough to try to fight for real with Wu Shu, it's a performing art, NOT a Traditinal fighting art DUHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

Moron...............

SifuAbel

07-24-2002, 12:16 PM

"...it's like 6 degree of separation, it's easy to
track someones credentials."

A mcdojo can have tons of liniage, be "real" through and through and still suck and be a Mcdojo. Remember, a McDojo isn't measured by handfull of hardcore students but but the quality of the average student. Some of them are going to suck.

Legendary_Fist

07-24-2002, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
[b]

Also, sorry you were stupid enough to try to fight for real with Wu Shu, it's a performing art, NOT a Traditinal fighting art DUHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

Moron...............

Though modern wushu is not traditional, there are quite a few comtempoary wushu exponents who can fight just fine with it, and could kick your @$$.

Moron.

Royal Dragon

07-24-2002, 04:15 PM

A modern San Shou fighter maybe, a San soo fighter maybe, but a Wu Shu player? Where's the foundation nessasary to teach combat fundmentals?

Modern Wu Shu is diametrically opposed to the needs of a fighter. It teaches you all the wrong things to do and much of what I have seen is way to flowery and elaborate to do anything but get you in deep trouble.

Now, if your learning a real fighting discaline, modern or not, I'm sure you can fight well, even if you also do modern Wu Shu. But don't expect me to believe learning to dance and prance is going to teach you to fight. It's like learning to needle point and expecting those skills to enable you to fly a plane.:rolleyes:

Phrost

07-24-2002, 04:41 PM

I wasn't trying to be vague in any way.

I simply am not aware of any BJJ McDojos. If there are some, I'd be more than happy to list them on the site in the proper category.

I hope that clears things up a bit.

At McDojo.com, all users can submit links to school websites they feel are either legit, or McDojos. They are then rated 1-10 (1 being McDojo, to 10 being legit.)

It's up to the users what qualifies as a McDojo. Right now, the database of links is pretty slim, so if you know of any schools you feel are questionable, feel free to submit the link.

Legendary_Fist

07-24-2002, 04:43 PM

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
A modern San Shou fighter maybe, a San soo fighter maybe, but a Wu Shu player? Where's the foundation nessasary to teach combat fundmentals?

Modern Wu Shu is diametrically opposed to the needs of a fighter. It teaches you all the wrong things to do and much of what I have seen is way to flowery and elaborate to do anything but get you in deep trouble.

Now, if your learning a real fighting discaline, modern or not, I'm sure you can fight well, even if you also do modern Wu Shu. But don't expect me to believe learning to dance and prance is going to teach you to fight. It's like learning to needle point and expecting those skills to enable you to fly a plane.:rolleyes:

How is cordination, endurance, agility, strength, and speed training (wushu training offers all of that and more) opposed to the needs of a fighter?

No kwoon, dojo, training hall, or gym is going to give you the fundamentals for combat. Its what you do outside such places that matter. Not to mention your body type, mindset, and natural ability.

Let's face it, many people simply aren't fighters, no matter what M.A. they take.

Right before wushu practice, I hit the weights for about an hour. In my days off from wushu practice, I work out with boxers, grapplers, karatekas, etc.

Bottom line; It doesn't matter what style anyone practices. A fighter is a fighter, and a fighter will kick MisterIpracticetwodaysin__dojo's @$$ even if all the fighter does is ballet or needlepoint sewing.

Royal Dragon

07-24-2002, 07:26 PM

http://www.geocities.com/beltcertify/index.html

Legendary_Fist You said

>>>How is cordination, endurance, agility, strength, and speed training (wushu training offers all of that and more) opposed to the needs of a fighter?"

Reply]
It's all good, but a Traditional art does this as well, and it wil NOT teach you to be open, over extended, issue power to please a crowd like Modern Wu Shu does.

A Traditional art WILL teach you to be close, covered, protected and issue power INTO an opponent. This is NOT something that is all that "eye" appealing to the crowd and greatly discouraged in modern performance Wu Shu. In fact the hyper extended, "expose your self, pretty boy" look found in Modern Wushu is the same as offering your elbow to your oponent and saying "Here's my elbow, you can break it now", as that "over extended posture" is exactly what a fighter wants because it makes elbow breaks so easy to do. Heck, I wouldn't even need to use a set up against that kind of mechanics.

Modern Wu Shu is pis s poor body mechanics from a fighter's perspective. It leaves you to open for attack and in too impractical a position to defend or retaliate. All the body conditioning, balance and endurance ain't going to help you one bit if you don't know how to put it in gear.

You can't learn to do something by NOT doing it. if you want to be able to fight, you MUST practice a fighting art. if you want to dance and prance, then you must practice a dance and prance art. All the fighting in the world will not make you good at dancing and prancing (Modern Wu Shu), any more than modern Wu Shu can make you a fighter.

>>>No kwoon, dojo, training hall, or gym is going to give you the fundamentals for combat. Its what you do outside such places that matter. Not to mention your body type, mindset, and natural ability.

Reply]
You are SO Wrong!! If you are in a REAL Traditional Kung Fu school this is what is taught FIRST!!! It is trained, practiced and mastered above all else. With out it your not going to be able to fight.

>>>Let's face it, many people simply aren't fighters, no matter what M.A. they take.

reply]
This is true, but for the dedicated, a fighter can be made.

>>>Right before wushu practice, I hit the weights for about an hour. In my days off from wushu practice, I work out with boxers, grapplers, karatekas, etc.

Reply]
If Wu Shu is so good for fighting, then why do yo need the Boxers and Karatikas? Answer, because it's NOT for fighting, and is infact in opposition to good sound combat habits.

>>>Bottom line; It doesn't matter what style anyone practices. A fighter is a fighter, and a fighter will kick MisterIpracticetwodaysin__dojo's @$$ even if all the fighter does is ballet or needlepoint sewing.

Reply]
You are SOOOOOOOOOO Wrong!!!! I don't care WHAT kind of mindset a guy has, If he does not know how to fight, he can't fight. Attitude means nothing with out the foundation and skill. Ballet , "Needle Point" and Wu Shu don't give the combat foundation or skill. Heck with performance Wu Shu, you don't even have the tools needed to fight let alone the training to used them right if you had them. As far as Chinese arts are concerned, only real Traditional Kung Fu styles offer this. If Wu Shu did, you wouldn't be working out with boxers and Karate guys, period.

At least the MMA guys understand that you must train to fight if you want to be able to fight. The Wu Shu guys who dance and think they are fighters are just daffy.

rogue

07-24-2002, 07:33 PM

That links a winner RD.

Royal Dragon

07-24-2002, 07:39 PM

I found it on Mcdojo Jojo.com of all places!!!

rogue

07-24-2002, 07:54 PM

I wonder what rank I could get for 1,500 hours of Tekken?

Phrost

07-24-2002, 08:46 PM

Not much else to say, front page, www.McDojo.com

Phrost

Legendary_Fist

07-24-2002, 09:54 PM

Originally posted by Royal Dragon

It's all good, but a Traditional art does this as well, and it wil NOT teach you to be open, over extended, issue power to please a crowd like Modern Wu Shu does.

A Traditional art WILL teach you to be close, covered, protected and issue power INTO an opponent. This is NOT something that is all that "eye" appealing to the crowd and greatly discouraged in modern performance Wu Shu. In fact the hyper extended, "expose your self, pretty boy" look found in Modern Wushu is the same as offering your elbow to your oponent and saying "Here's my elbow, you can break it now", as that "over extended posture" is exactly what a fighter wants because it makes elbow breaks so easy to do. Heck, I wouldn't even need to use a set up against that kind of mechanics.[/b]

You must not have much experience with tradtional arts, because almost all traditional MAs (and many modern arts as well) preform excercises that contain over extention within them. Doesn't the horse stance, or some derivative of it, exist in every traditional MA style? That's an open over extended stance. How many traditional Southern Chinese MAs contain ridicously deep stances within their forms?Choy Li Fut's forms are full of overextended techniques. Several Japanese Karate styles have overextended stances, kicks, punches, etc. All of that is in place to make the body stronger. No one would fight in a bow stance, or a horse stance for example. However, those impractical movements strengthen the legs and lower body, so that your natural fighting stance will be stronger.

You can't learn to do something by NOT doing it. if you want to be able to fight, you MUST practice a fighting art. if you want to dance and prance, then you must practice a dance and prance art. All the fighting in the world will not make you good at dancing and prancing (Modern Wu Shu), any more than modern Wu Shu can make you a fighter.

Please. First of all, if any school wanted to stay open longer than five minutes, it would NEVER allow their students to practice fighting. Sorry, but sparring in class is NOT fighting. Randori on the mat is NOT fighting. There's no way you can practice for a fight, because to do so would get someone hurt, possibly killed. Yeah, you can do little ring bouts, you can roll around on the mat, but the only way you could actually "practice" for a fight is to go to a bad neighborhood and get some hoods to jump you. Go to a frat party and get some football players to kick your @$$. Walk down the street and smack some big guy in face and get him to throw a few punches at you.

Those are real fights, and there isn't a dojo, kwoon, gym on the planet that can truly practice for something like that.

This is true, but for the dedicated, a fighter can be made.

Sorry, but you can't "create" a fighter. Fighters are born fighting since birth, or have been fighting since they could walk. Which is why we have people who are willing to risk permenant, life-long mental damage to be prize fighters. Even to a lesser degree, there are people who are simply better natural fighters than other people. Which is why you'll see someone with years of training in MA under his/her belt get whooped on by some untrained ruffian.

Just like there are natural gymnast, natural runners, natural artists, natural mathmaticians, there are people who are natural fighters.

If Wu Shu is so good for fighting, then why do yo need the Boxers and Karatikas? Answer, because it's NOT for fighting, and is infact in opposition to good sound combat habits.

That's a stupid question, and an even more stupid answer. Who here doesn't have friends or family members who train in other forms of martial arts? That's like saying a Praying Mantis practicioner is working out with a boxer because PM isn't for fighting and boxing is, or vice versa.

You are SOOOOOOOOOO Wrong!!!! I don't care WHAT kind of mindset a guy has, If he does not know how to fight, he can't fight. Attitude means nothing with out the foundation and skill. Ballet , "Needle Point" and Wu Shu don't give the combat foundation or skill. Heck with performance Wu Shu, you don't even have the tools needed to fight let alone the training to used them right if you had them. As far as Chinese arts are concerned, only real Traditional Kung Fu styles offer this. If Wu Shu did, you wouldn't be working out with boxers and Karate guys, period.

You're wrong on several counts. The first being the notion that people need to be trained to fight. Perhaps for ringed combat, but a "combat" situation, no. There are people who have never set foot in a dojo, a gym, or whatever, and will tear through most MA schools in North America. They know how to fight because they were born with that mindset. Maybe its the mindset of a bully, or a jerk, but in any case, that mindset has proven the ineffectiveness of martial arts in general.

Do we need to go through the good 'ol stories about the big college football player who beat the living @#$% out of Joey Black belt outside a bar?

At least the MMA guys understand that you must train to fight if you want to be able to fight. The Wu Shu guys who dance and think they are fighters are just daffy.

No, the MMA guys are slightly more confused than TMA practicioners. MMA guys believe that training for a ringed competition is the same as training for when a gang of drunk idiots want your pocket change. However, they got it right in the notion that most practitioners of traditional martial arts put far too much stock in ancient myths about "super sifus" who could defeat hundreds of armed soldiers with their "hands of death". The simple reality is that the skinny guys doing "tradtional kung fu" for the last 25 years would get destroyed in a street fight with Tito Ortiz, Rickson Gracie,Maurice (something), etc.

Why? Because Tito, Rickson, and Mo' are fighters. The skinny guy doing Wing Chun isn't. Even if those three never took a MA in their lives, they work out enough to the point that they'd stomp most Martial artists into the dirt.

Am I a Wushu guy who thinks I'm a fighter? No. I'm a fighter who happens to take up Wushu because I happen to enjoy the movements, the excercise, the weapons, etc. I've done traditional MA in the past, and there's little difference between what I do now and what I did then.

jimmy23

07-24-2002, 09:58 PM

man thx a million, Ive been looking for that footage for years!

I am also laughing at how two acknowledged wing chun masters go into a weak ass clinch, then engage in terrible ground work. VERY funny.

guohuen

07-24-2002, 10:36 PM

I think we've been through this before. Bully attacks an old man and grapples like a grade school kid.:rolleyes:

rubthebuddha

07-24-2002, 10:37 PM

i like the fact that both of them make claims that they have no basis for. cheung has a very ambivalent attitude, even though he was pretty much worthless during the whole thing, and emin says "when i beat william cheung up" (heard him say it in person), even though cheung probably got more bruises from the hardwood floor than from emin's strikes.

so basically, you have two hotshot wing chun studs looking silly and then scrambling to make some good of it by spinning it back their way.

reminds me too much of bad politics. i wonder why. :rolleyes:

Serpent

07-24-2002, 10:41 PM

To be honest though, Cheung really didn't do anything other than half-arsedly defend himself. He didn't counter and he didn't prove any real mastership by taking control of the situation.

Boztepe was technically in a very dominant position (due to jumping an old man from behind! :rolleyes: ) and then he never did anything with it either.

If Boztepe was going to prove a point he should have kicked the crap out of Cheung. If Cheung was really a good fighter then he should have kicked the crap out of Boztepe just for his insolence and lack of respect.

Neither of these things happened.

Why?

Asia

07-24-2002, 11:35 PM

:) :( :) :D :p :cool: :mad: :eek: :confused: :rolleyes:

That just about sums everything up!

SifuAbel

07-25-2002, 12:38 AM

BJJ is a Mojo Mc Dojo

http://www.geocities.com/beltcertify/index.html

Ha! so much for BJJ being Mcdojo proof.

MA fanatic

07-25-2002, 04:50 AM

Both men are pretty dumb as far as I'm concerned. In this particular situation, however, (though I haven't seen the fight) William Cheung should not have been attacked in the middle of his seminar. Boztepe calls himself a master, but ambushes, fights and attacks like a child in a school yard. As for Cheung, he wasn't that old at the time. The man must have been in his mid 40s. What I heard is that technique went right out the window and two men roled around like kids (both claiming in magazines to be masters and one a grandmaster). After all that, I can't believe I'm reading black belt magazine with an add in front of me where Boztepe claims he is teaching "grappling defenses." What a scam!!! Cheung at least comes across as respectable. The other guy comes across as a nut. Some bjj guy should jump him in the middle of his seminar and give him a good old fashioned wooping.

BTW, how did this animosity get started? Why did Boztepe jump Cheung? Did Boztepe wear pads underneath his clothing as Cheung claimed his apponent did? What lead up to this situation and how was it resolved? Were there any apologies made?
MA fanatic

NPMantis

07-25-2002, 05:05 AM

Sorry if this is a silly question but how can anyone be sure the video is real? It's so blurred it surely could be anyone?

Internal Boxer

07-25-2002, 05:26 AM

Wing Chun:rolleyes: what a joke, but there are many many so called masters that would be knackered when attacked in a grappling context. I must admit that was the worst grappling I have ever seen, he had already got him on the floor and past his leg guard he could have ended it in seconds, 0 out of 10 for grappling skill on both sides. It is no wonder that the grappling community take the pi.ss out of Kung fu and other traditional MA.

:mad:

SDriver

07-25-2002, 05:29 AM

It's been acknowledged by both participants that the video is legit.

I have a question, though... don't any Wing Chun/Tsung stylists find it disturbing that two "masters" of the style don't seem to follow any recognizable tenets of the style in a fight?

Edit: I just realized this could be taken as a "see, WC/T sux0rz" post. Rest assured that it isn't.

Internal Boxer

07-25-2002, 05:46 AM

Just looked at it again, absoultely FU.CKING PATHETIC. I would have thought that the students of these so called masters would either
A) leave and study submission fighting, at least they can be assured that the grappling will work.
B) study under another teacher.

I bet they still have healthy business bank balances. I love Kung-fu but these so called masters are the frauds and should be labelled as such

"Opinions are like ass.holes, everybodies got one" Dirty Harry.

MA fanatic

07-25-2002, 05:57 AM

William Cheung is legit. The reason the two individuals look so
silly, is because Wing Chun is based more in theory than anything practical. William Cheung is the highest ranking authority on WC. Actually, his title is not a master, but grandmaster. Let's face facts, when a fight breaks out, WC misleads students into believing that it is an effective form of self defense. There are strong WC guys out there, but even they most likely will not be able to pull off any WC principals in real combat. If I get my but kicked by a WC guy, it wont be because he'll trap my hands or explode with a series of vertical straight punches. If you want to see WC guys fight in a full contact karate event, rent the movie called Fighting Black Kings. It's hard to get. But, the movie is a documentary of the first ever international full contact martial arts tournament held in Japan (early 1960s).
MA fanatic

red5angel

07-25-2002, 06:25 AM

MA Fanatic - FOr an "MA Fanatic" you dont know a whole lot about MA do you? wingchun is more theoretical? Take a walk, learn something about martial arts and then come back when your ready.

As for these two idiots, Wiliem Cheung dose a fine job of "proving" he is amaster by not being able to use his art to defend himself. Meanwhile Emin Bobo Boztepe manages to confirm that he is thug and has less of an understanding of wingchun then Cheung by going to the ground and not showing a bit of wingchun or its principles. the whole video is an embarrasement to wingchun in general.........

Royal Dragon

07-25-2002, 06:33 AM

>>>You must not have much experience with tradtional arts, because almost all traditional MAs (and many modern arts as well) preform excercises that contain over extention within them. Doesn't the horse stance, or some derivative of it, exist in every traditional MA style? That's an open over extended stance. How many traditional Southern Chinese MAs contain ridicously deep stances within their forms?Choy Li Fut's forms are full of overextended techniques. Several Japanese Karate styles have overextended stances, kicks, punches, etc. All of that is in place to make the body stronger. No one would fight in a bow stance, or a horse stance for example. However, those impractical movements strengthen the legs and lower body, so that your natural fighting stance will be stronger.

Reply}
I can use all my deep stances in fighting. I have some nice throws and uproots that use deep stances like the low snake stance into a low bow that topples the opponent. Same for a deep horse stance which I have used effectively on occasion during anti take down practice. The Twisted horse I have also used in throws and escapes against barreage of attacks.

As for the hyper extended use of Choy Lay fut, just do it to me, an I'll even drive you to the emergancy room to have your elbow fix just for making it easy on me.

>>>Please. First of all, if any school wanted to stay open longer than five minutes, it would NEVER allow their students to practice fighting. Sorry, but sparring in class is NOT fighting. Randori on the mat is NOT fighting. There's no way you can practice for a fight, because to do so would get someone hurt, possibly killed. Yeah, you can do little ring bouts, you can roll around on the mat, but the only way you could actually "practice" for a fight is to go to a bad neighborhood and get some hoods to jump you. Go to a frat party and get some football players to kick your @$$. Walk down the street and smack some big guy in face and get him to throw a few punches at you.

Those are real fights, and there isn't a dojo, kwoon, gym on the planet that can truly practice for something like that.

Reply]
Try walking into Saviano's White Tiger Kempo in Addison (Sub of Chicago) some time, Keith Hackney's school or the old Green Dragon society. These guys fight for real as a training exercise.

>>>Sorry, but you can't "create" a fighter. Fighters are born fighting since birth, or have been fighting since they could walk. Which is why we have people who are willing to risk permenant, life-long mental damage to be prize fighters. Even to a lesser degree, there are people who are simply better natural fighters than other people. Which is why you'll see someone with years of training in MA under his/her belt get whooped on by some untrained ruffian.

Reply]
No, they get whopped by an "un trained ruffian" because they had bad teachers.

>>>Just like there are natural gymnast, natural runners, natural artists, natural mathmaticians, there are people who are natural fighters.

Reply]
I have seen many natural athletes, and many who were not that became sound athletes because of good solid training and good teachers. Same with fighting, I have seen some who suck and have no natural ability get pretty good in time with the right teacher. It just takes longer, and a dedication to the training, that's all.

>>>You're wrong on several counts. The first being the notion that people need to be trained to fight. Perhaps for ringed combat, but a "combat" situation, no. There are people who have never set foot in a dojo, a gym, or whatever, and will tear through most MA schools in North America. They know how to fight because they were born with that mindset. Maybe its the mindset of a bully, or a jerk, but in any case, that mindset has proven the ineffectiveness of martial arts in general.

Do we need to go through the good 'ol stories about the big college football player who beat the living @#$% out of Joey Black belt outside a bar?

Reply]
A football player has far more combat fundementals from his training than a dancer does.

The Black belt beat outside of a bar had a bad teacher, and his opponent usually has quite a bit of fighting experiance as well as trainning like High school wrestling, Football or Boxing. Plus, many people learn to fight from their fathers a Kids (My Dad taught me some English Boxing), and just keep doing it informally with their freinds as they grow up. Just because a "Black Belt" looses a fight to someone who never stepped foot in a "Dojo" does NOT mean he lost to an untrained fighter.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At least the MMA guys understand that you must train to fight if you want to be able to fight. The Wu Shu guys who dance and think they are fighters are just daffy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>>No, the MMA guys are slightly more confused than TMA practicioners.

Reply]
No, they at least test their skills, the Whu Shu guy just dances and Thinks that makes him a fighter.

>>>MMA guys believe that training for a ringed competition is the same as training for when a gang of drunk idiots want your pocket change. However, they got it right in the notion that most practitioners of traditional martial arts put far too much stock in ancient myths about "super sifus" who could defeat hundreds of armed soldiers with their "hands of death". The simple reality is that the skinny guys doing "tradtional kung fu" for the last 25 years would get destroyed in a street fight with Tito Ortiz, Rickson Gracie,Maurice (something), etc.

Reply]
If a guy doing Kung Fu for 25 years is still skinny, he wasn't doing Kung Fu for real. There is no such thing as a Skinny traditional Kung Fu guy. They are built just as well as anyone who persues an athletic discaplin that long.

>>>Why? Because Tito, Rickson, and Mo' are fighters. The skinny guy doing Wing Chun isn't. Even if those three never took a MA in their lives, they work out enough to the point that they'd stomp most Martial artists into the dirt.

Reply]
Looks like we found "some" common ground on this one. One thing you should undersand is that natural born fighters DO practice fighting. The Chicago Outlaws are a good example. You might think of them as common untrained thugs because they are a Biker gang, but inside they have their own combat training and proving grounds and are far more capable fighteres that the average Mc Black belt.

The Skinny Wing Chun guy may not be a fighter, but what about the guy with 10 years experiance and the atlas build? Do you think THAT Wing Chun guy is not a fighter? Do you honestly think all that sticky hands and Wooden Dummy exercises don't add to fighting ability? What about all the two man drills and sparring those guys do? If you think Wing Chun can't fight, you've never crossed ahnds with them.

>>>Am I a Wushu guy who thinks I'm a fighter? No. I'm a fighter who happens to take up Wushu because I happen to enjoy the movements, the excercise, the weapons, etc. I've done traditional MA in the past, and there's little difference between what I do now and what I did then.

Reply]
My whole point in this argument is that it's NOT Wu Shu that builds a fighter (because it's dance). A fighter may very well do Wu Shu as well, but that's NOT what made him a fighter. The foundation is just not there. Also, there are ALOT of schools claiming to be "Traditional" yet they teach with very Whu Shuy mechanics and principals, which are modern (Like your Choy Lay Fut example above).

I train with a VERY traditional player (several in fact) and often we sit down after praqctice and view one of the many martial arts videos I have in my library, and he will often shake his head and go "It's all just Whu Shu". Now I'm talking about traditonal sets he's commenting on here. So one day I asked him what he means by that as what I was showing him was a VERY traditonal set called Shou Hong Chuan. He explained it's not the set that matters, it's the performance. Hew had me demonstraight the set live, and proclaimed that what "I" was doing was Traditonal Kung Fu, and proceded to explain "why" it was so, and why the video was not.

It all had to do with the structure of my body. The set on video he called "Wu Shu" used much more extension and locking of the elbows with an arched back and butt out posture. The correct "traditional" performance is done with NOT locking the elbows (just slightly bent), tucking the tail bone slightly and forward rounded shoulders. It's an ugly posture and not much good for show, but structurally is is far stronger and allows you to issue considerably more power in both attack and defense.

If your trainng Wu Shu, then your training the wrong body mechanics for fighting.

SDriver

07-25-2002, 06:53 AM

I'm not trying to insult anyone. But every time a video, competition, etc. features a supposed master of a traditional style fighting outside of a tournament for that particular style, I see two things.

1. The master looks a lot like a brawler or kickboxer.
2. The master's fellow stylists disown him immediately.

I am honestly curious about this. I have seen it happen time after time.

jimmy23

07-25-2002, 07:01 AM

"the whole video is an embarrasement to wingchun in general........."

I agree. If two grandmasters cant apply their art in any effective way in a brawl, I wonder what that implies about the art.....

red5angel

07-25-2002, 07:49 AM

SDriver, it may just be your experience. I have seen some pretty good skill used effectively outside the ring or demonstrations. Very few people however really have what it takes. Obviously these two guys do not.

jimmy23, its not necessarily about the style it is about the man. My personal rule of thumb is that if I fail at a fight or sparring or tournemant, I need to examine myself and where I failed. I practice wingchun, which has been thoroughly tested so I know it works, if I cant get it to work it would be my failling.

tnwingtsun

07-25-2002, 08:11 AM

Uhhhh,guys,this happened 16 years ago.

rubthebuddha-yea,I heard the same thing(shhh,don't tell anyone,it was in person too).

KC Elbows

07-25-2002, 08:12 AM

RD,
The early wushu sets were FIGHTING sets designed by traditional fighters. In fact, the newer wushu coaches will refer to such sets as being more traditional than their own.

Don't believe me? Go to Zhang Hongchao's school and see if he will spar with you using his longfist, or his mantis, or his eagle. Not only can he do so, but he can do so phenomenally well for someone his age, and those are all early wushu FIGHTING sets.

He also teaches the demo sets, but he has two versions of those, purely demo sets for the non-fighters, and fighting sets with aerial manuevers added for the fighter who also wants to learn the gymnastic stuff.

There's a pic on his wall of him doing san shou. And he used the fighting sets at that point.

Phrost,
My questions were not meant as an attack, just questions.

BeiKongHui

07-25-2002, 08:17 AM

I bet you sound & look like the Comic book geek from the Simpson's.

btw, Fighting Black Kings was made in 1976 and is a Kyokushinki fight video. Have you ever even seen WC in person or are you just parroting what you've heard?

Cipher

07-25-2002, 08:18 AM

I agree with red. I have, and have seen WC used effectivly in altercations. Come on, it has been done many times. Why is it that one video can sway everyones feelings on a certain art? I have personaly defeated wreslers that have had more experience than I had at the time and never hit the ground. Do I think wresling is worthless? Hell. I think there are weaknesses in every art.

I study WC, and I think that straight WC has some gaps that need to be filled, like everything else, witch is why we mix it up with other arts. WC has many usefull techniques, prinicipals, and drills IMHO. Oh-well, just my 2 cents.

rogue

07-25-2002, 08:42 AM

After viewing that video I really doubt Emins stories about 300 street fights. I've seen two drunks fight better than the guys in that videos. Did any of you WC guys see any WC in play in that fight? :confused:

Does anybody have videos where WC does well? On paper the system makes more sense than just about anything else but I've yet to see it used in a fight at a high level. Are there any WC San shou fighters out there?

red5angel

07-25-2002, 08:43 AM

Hehe, rogue, our WC techniques are waaaaaay too dangerous to show to the general public. I could show you but you might not sruvive the experience ;)

Phrost

07-25-2002, 10:19 AM

That's fine. I don't think I took them as an attack at the time.

I'm happy to answer any questions anyone has. I'm going to be out of the loop next week because I'm moving.

By the way, does KC stand for Kansas City? That's where we're headed.

Royal Dragon

07-25-2002, 10:44 AM

Rememebr when I said this above??

"It all had to do with the structure of my body. The set on video he called "Wu Shu" used much more extension and locking of the elbows with an arched back and butt out posture. The correct "traditional" performance is done with NOT locking the elbows (just slightly bent), tucking the tail bone slightly and forward rounded shoulders. It's an ugly posture and not much good for show, but structurally is is far stronger and allows you to issue considerably more power in both attack and defense. "

>>>Don't believe me? Go to Zhang Hongchao's school and see if he will spar with you using his longfist, or his mantis, or his eagle. Not only can he do so, but he can do so phenomenally well for someone his age, and those are all early wushu FIGHTING sets.

Reply]
Silly question, were these early Whu Shu "Fighting" sets?

Or Modern traditional sets?

Seems to me that Modern Wu Shu had only 7 distinct compulsary sets until reacently.

One Long Fist set, One Nan Chaun set and a Taiji set (based on Yang style) and the rest were weapon sets. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Eagle, Mantis were not among them. Are you sure these are not just more reacently developed traditional sets from Chin Woo or the Nanking Kou Shou federation?

Also, just because your old Sifu can fight does NOT change the fact that you still must train to fight in order to be able to fight. I'm sure he didn't get that good by just doing those forms all the time. He may have devloped his conditioning and body mechanics with them, but he still had to practice the fighting in order to get good at fighting.

Whether you are doing modern dance and prance or the original 7 compulsary routines, it does not matter. If thats all you do, your a dancer, not a fighter. ESPECIALLY if your training the modern Whu Shu because the mechanics are in opposition to building good combat habits.

fa_jing

07-25-2002, 10:48 AM

William Chueng is a highly respected master. He won many challenge matches in HK, and also won the HK open kung fu championships (fighting) for two years in a row during his youth. AND, his students in modern times have also won the HK open tournament. That's why he was Black Belt Artist of the year in 1983. Emin is good too. Emin did jump Chueng (46) with his cohorts forming a circle around them, but he did give Chueng a few seconds to prepare. What probably happened is, they neutralized each other, it's not so hard to believe, as they were both top-level practicioners of the same style, IMO. Then Cheung lost his balance (hey, it happens) and Emin fell on top of Chueng and that's where Chueng lost, he has no knowledge of groundfighting and Emin has a little wrestling in his background. Apparently the video was heavily edited (it was shot by Boztepe's folks!!) to show the best parts for Boztepe. It DOES show that you may find yourself on the ground and you'd better learn some groundfighting. I had the same experience when I sparred WaterDragon. I could stop the takedown with strikes some of the time, other times I couldn't and the sparring went to the ground. Fortunately we do a little groundwork in my school, but I felt the need to improve this aspect.

BTW, I disagree with MA fanatic. Cheung is a grandmaster because he started and heads an organization. His claims to be the sole inheritor of the "true" WC (as if there was such a thing) are clearly spurious. The video proves that, not to mention that there are other top teachers both within and apart from the Yip Man lineage. Also, WC is theory AND techniques, AND is extremely practical except when it comes to groundfighting.

fa_jing

07-25-2002, 11:15 AM

Oops, just viewed the video again, I fianlly got through. This is different footage and lighting from the other video I saw. They are clinching pretty much from the start. Looks like Chueng tried to knee Boztepe and Boztepe threw him with a judo-looking throw. The initial position is one that should not arise in WC, that's to say their grabbing each other's arms. Like I said, it doesn't show the initial striking but they probably neutralized each other or didn't do much damage. Once in this position, I don't see what Chueng could have done. Emin is stonger and bigger and is bound to win a wrestling match. You can see that indeed, Chuengs feet were sliding around due to the slippery shoes/surface, but I don't think it made much of a difference, he was going down anyway. Would like to have seen the initial contact phase.
-FJ

Nevermind

07-25-2002, 11:45 AM

How is it that Emin Boztepe gets the respect that he does today in the martial arts community? I mean, I have seen him in countless articles in reputable magazines and have seen many advertisements for his videos. Simply put, IMHO, the guy appears to be a thug. I mean, yeah, it happened 16 years ago, but he was supposedly experienced enough to know better. Attacking a well respected grandmaster at his seminar (regardless of how he earned his title, the man has paid his dues and has helped Wing Chun earn the respect that it gets today) is unforgiveable. Has he ever apologized or tried to justify this mugging? I think Cheung was simply caught off guard and not prepared for this attack. I can't imagine anyone being able to fight with kung fu slippers on a polished floor. Why did Emin bring a mob with him? Just in case he lost? Pure cowardice in its lowest form. I would be interested in seeing the uncut video. I'll say this, it was a poor demonstration of Wing Chun in actual combat. I mean it looks like plain old streetfighting to me. I know a fight is never going to be pretty, but there didn't appear to be any Wing Chun techniques applied or even attempted for that matter. Ok, I'm done!

KC Elbows

07-25-2002, 12:04 PM

RD,
The compulsory sets when Zhang Hongchao studied do not involve having the butt out, among other things. In fact, the judging when HE competed took away points for such, from what I understand. It's been a while since I spoke with him, but it was always a major point with him, tucking.

Also, it was my understanding that the compulsory sets went through several incarnations, so that the original advanced longfist set is much different today than back when he practiced.

As for the mantis and eagle, they were, to my knowledge, PRC versions. His senior externals guy lives out here, so I'll ask him for the details.

I will tell you, however, that Zhang Hongchao can point out all the applications in the wushu sets he has, can use them in fighting, and insists on calling all the martial arts he uses wushu, as demonstration sets that had little fighting value existed LONG before the PRC, and served basically the same function.

In fact, there's a wu shu coach out here from Beijing, and she has commented on my friend's wushu sets as being more "traditional" than hers. However, they are still wushu, and are visually dynamic while still encompassing a method of fighting.

In addition, of the wushu coaches I have known who did not do fighting sets(though without exception, all the coaches I've met knew the applications and fighting methods of the PRC internal sets) on the external forms, not one of them has ever made any claims about their fighting ability. To them, there is no pride in fighting, to understand it as an academic exercise is OK, but only for that.

Back on the discussion of what sets were in existence: I would have to speak with sifu Zhang on this, but I believe that the hsing yi and pa kua he practiced were all based off of standardized PRC forms, he practiced a rare Sun stlye tai chi set he learned off of a secretive old school practitioner in a park who wanted to learn another form Zhang had(Zhang and that guy who runs chin woo in Texas are probably the two largest forms encyclopedias in the country, Zhang took advantage of this fact throughout his life to trade for form he liked).

I don't think the compulsory sets are all the forms that were collected by the PRC, merely the competition ones. Remember, the early PRC slant was for health and fitness and so forth.

OK just got off of the phone with Zhang's senior externals player. He says that the following forms of Zhangs are, to his knowledge, all PRC foms: Yang style tai chi, chen style tai chi(though he says this one is basically exactly the same as one traditional chen style set), pa kua, hsing yi, eagle, he is not sure on the mantis and will check for me, as well as the afore mentioned nan chuan, chang chuan, weapons, et. al.

In addition, Zhang was teaching two entirely different PRC sets for at least the first two styles, longfist and southern fist, one for fighting, which could then have the acrobatic moves added in, and one largely for show. Thus, he taught two different basic longfist forms, two different advanced longfist forms, two different southern fist forms, and two different shaolin broadsword forms, if not more.

By that reckoning, Zhang had at least thirteen PRC kung fu forms, and very likely many more, not all of them compulsory forms. And I've yet to see one he could not fight with. Which makes me entirely too jealous.

To be honest, it would be all to easy to slam wushu, but one of the best kung fu fighting teachers I've yet to meet was a wushu teacher, so I must admit that some of those PRC forms and training methodology have merit.

Mind you, Zhang started training at 9 and rode his chi kung master to the store a number of miles every day on his bicycle, spent some ungodly amount of time at the university and is one of two PHD's in kungfu in the country, yet is humble as can be, and, from my understanding, a crazy driver.

Make of that what you will.

BTW, his student told me to tell anyone slamming wushu that, despite the fact that he just had abdominal surgery yesterday from work related injuries, he will fight any of you for the honor of the wushu temple, and, if need be, choke you to death with his own intestines, and end off butterfly kicking three times over your corpse.:D

KC Elbows

07-25-2002, 12:11 PM

One last point. Zhang can fight using the PRC longfist routine. Specifically that, without coloring it with any of his other styles. He can do the same with southern fist. It is my understanding it is the same with eagle, and mantis, as well as the different sword work.

All that, and his main gigs tai chi.

Therefore I feel comfortable enough saying that your assessment of the original longfist PRC routine is not accurate, that it does suffice as a fighting form, though it is designed to be only part of your curriculum, not the end of your fighting forms. The reason I can say this is because I have seen Zhang work it.

At the same time, most wushu teachers are not that traditional, and so their longfist sets do not reflect what Zhang's do.

Again, the practitioner, not the style.:p

Royal Dragon

07-25-2002, 12:20 PM

That is very interesting. It sounds more like moder Traditinal forms developed by the PRC that what I am refering to as Whu Shu.

In my view, if it traines you to fight, and the purpose is combat then it's Traditional, and if it's mostly for show, it's contemparary Whu Shu.

From what I know, the original PRC stuff was NOT Modern Whu Shu, but new Traditional Kung Fu, so that all has to be taken off the plate.

Anyway, my premis that you can't learn to fight buy dancing still stands.

KC Elbows

07-25-2002, 12:35 PM

:D

Then I've got to open up a can of flamenco whuup @ss on ya, buddy.:p :D

Basically, you are correct. I merely make the distinction because many don't realize that the early pioneers of wushu actually had fighting sets, and knew how to use them.

By the way, Phrost is really plugging his site, isn't he?

Internal Boxer

07-25-2002, 12:42 PM

Fa jing - wrestlers and submission fighters "neutralize" their oponents all the time, you are saying that after being neutralized Cheung would not be able to do anything?? so that means even the most basic wrestler would be able to kick his asS.

Flattop Monk

07-25-2002, 12:44 PM

I remember back in the 80's, William Cheung was the self proclaimed "World's Deadliest Fighter". I also remember Emin Boztepe bad mouthing Royce Gracie, who was then the UFC Champion. Emin never set one foot in the Octagon, and anyone with half a clue knows what would happen to him if he did. These 2 clowns deserve some humiliation.

I don't think a whole system of fighting should be judged by the actions of a couple of scrawny schmucks. Bruce Lee did devote many years to Wing Chun, so I'm sure there's somethng practical there.

Maybe if William and Emin spent some time in a Gym, they would have been more humble. It's hard to have an attitude if you realize that you are a pathetic weakling!!

Internal Boxer

07-25-2002, 12:49 PM

Yeah, Cheung looked about as deadly as a hamster :D

BeiKongHui

07-25-2002, 12:58 PM

-Cheung thinks he knows more about WC than his Sifu Yip Man did. Leung Ting/Bozetepe crowd also think they know better than Yip Man.

-Both of these organizations push heavy marketing and regularly change their curriculums to match the fad of the moment.

-Both of these men have mouthed off repeatedly and not put their a$$es on the line in any kind of competition that can be proven to occur. eg: Bozetepe threatening the Gracies, Cheung promiseing to take any challenge anytime.

-Both organizations claim to be the real, certifiable, legitimate Wing Chun yet neither's kung fu looks like Yip Man's students who were verifiably taught by him.

-Both men gave WC a black eye worse than any grappler, NHB, Karate, Judo, etc. person ever could and as such should have been shunned by the rest of the WC community.

_________________________________________________
Now as for these McDojo.com kids I think that once they get their first taste of pu$$y they'll suddenly find they don't have that much time to waste and maybe get over the obsessive/compulsive disorder some of those guys seem to have.

The Willow Sword

07-25-2002, 01:01 PM

yes folks welcome to hollywood kung fu where YOU can fight like the stars. have the blind confidence to learn techniques they do IN THE MOVIES! picture yourself as david carradine and yes EVEN THE LEDGENDARY Bruce lee. learn what it took to get them on the screen and go out and have lots and lots of fantasy filled fun.

disclaimer: not intended for fighting.:D

Many respects,,The Willow Sword

rubthebuddha

07-25-2002, 01:10 PM

the whole thing started, as i've heard it, when cheung had an open challenge to people IN PRINT. it was one of those idiotic, "anytime, anywhere" things. i've also heard that he had "abused" students of of his sihings and sidais (whether this is true or not, and if so, whether it was on his own or because they challenged him, i do not know).

that printed open challenge is what emin had with him when he confronted cheung.

as to why he gets the kind of publicity that he does? the squeaky wheel principle. good, solid masters are usually quiet and just do their thing. the more vocal, boisterous and arrogant ones usually make noise. anyone who's ever tried to find a FANTASTIC school in their hometown knows this, because the best schools often don't present themselves publicly. however, the ones that need any attention they can get because their abilities don't speak for themselves are usually doing anything they can to draw attention to them.

also think about the timing. when emin left his sifu and sigung, he lost at least three-quarters of his US students who were at schools that remained loyal to leung ting. that's a bit of a downgrade in income, so he's had to try more things to get word out about his organization -- like signing up for videos with unique publications.

anyhoo, that's that. if you want more on this, pm or e-mail me.

KC Elbows

07-25-2002, 01:24 PM

I said it on their board and I'll say it here:

All that video proves is that Boztep's a jerk and wing chun has no ground work.

And I didn't need a visual to figure that out, but I'll give phrost the benefit of the doubt, as he needs to work in baby steps so that the bjj guys don't get confused.:D

Phrost

07-25-2002, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by BeiKongHui

Now as for these McDojo.com kids I think that once they get their first taste of pu$$y they'll suddenly find they don't have that much time to waste and maybe get over the obsessive/compulsive disorder some of those guys seem to have.

Not to get into another pointless debate, but for the record I've personally seen more pu$$y than Tampax. And not that it's any kind of measurement of personal worth, but I'd bet that I've seen more than you as well. :cool:

I'm engaged now, so that's all in the past.

Other than that, you had some good points about WC.

Phrost, Admin www.McDojo.com

KC Elbows

07-25-2002, 01:42 PM

That Phrost kid's got moxy!:D :p

fa_jing

07-25-2002, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by Internal Boxer
Fa jing - wrestlers and submission fighters "neutralize" their oponents all the time, you are saying that after being neutralized Cheung would not be able to do anything?? so that means even the most basic wrestler would be able to kick his asS.

No, the most basic wrestler would NOT be able to neutralize him in the first place. At least not under fair, equal conditions, which this video did not represent. Now, I believe that there are ADVANCED wrestlers that could neutralize Chueng, I mean the very top guys with experience against strikers, even better if they had some experience against Wing Chun. I mean, he is NOT the baddest martial artist on the planet, although he is quite good. Nothing to do with the style. Who knows, we didn't see the whole film, maybe Cheung did have some opportunities as he claimed.

fa_jing

07-25-2002, 01:47 PM

Originally posted by Flattop Monk

I don't think a whole system of fighting should be judged by the actions of a couple of scrawny schmucks. Bruce Lee did devote many years to Wing Chun, so I'm sure there's somethng practical there.

Maybe if William and Emin spent some time in a Gym, they would have been more humble. It's hard to have an attitude if you realize that you are a pathetic weakling!!

You're speaking without knowledge. William Chueng used to be VERY buff (look in his books sometime), and Emin was and still is EXTREMELY buff. Neither of them could be described as "scrawny."

And I think either one of them in their prime would have a fair shot against Bruce Lee. Howzabout that?

This guy just might be the best WC man out there: Tom Wong. Check out this website, and I've independently confirmed this guy is legit: www.wingchunw.com And the man supposedly bench pressed 400, that's alot for a Wing Chun guy.

-FJ

BeiKongHui

07-25-2002, 01:54 PM

but I'd bet that I've seen more than you as well.

keep saying it and maybe it'll come true.;)

I'm sorry are you an adult? I just find it hard to believe that someone with a life would take the time to create a site that detailed just in order to build a little self esteem at the expense of other people's idiocy. :rolleyes:

Internal Boxer

07-25-2002, 01:55 PM

fa jing that is a very weak argument cause I train in Internal and MMA and both use neutralizing at their basic levels, so even a relatively low skilled MMA fighter would be able to neutralize him, take him to ground and finish him, with a lot more skill than the other bloke. It is pretty hilarious after his outlandish claims to take on all comers as proclaiming himself as a deadly fighter. Sad soooo Sad:rolleyes:

The Willow Sword

07-25-2002, 02:01 PM

they learned a few holly wood techniques like the glint of the teethy smile that blinds you casuing a distraction and then BOOM
a holly wood jumping back side roundhousehook with a thumbs up and a smile. :D

fa_jing

07-25-2002, 02:19 PM

Internal Boxer - please elaborate. Can YOU neutralize a Wing Chun master? It's not easy. And if, as you seem to think, ANY stylist can be neutralized (let's say a clinch can be achieved) how in the world would any smaller person be able to defeat a larger person? The larger person would just use his "basic" skills to neutralize the opponent, then take him down and finish him off. Not that there's nothing WC can do from the clinch (we knee and kick), just that there really isn't much any style can do against a bigger, stronger person with grappling skills from this position. And WC doesn't train much grappling, stand-up or otherwise, I admit. Still, WC is a well-regarded style! There is a reason why we don't want to grapple, it's so smaller people don't find themselves at a disadvantage against larger folks.

NorthernMantis

07-25-2002, 02:53 PM

I just saw the video and all I gotta say is that Emin is a punk. I can't beleive no one did anything about it. Weren't there any of William Cheung's students there too? If someone jumped my sifu like that I would have picked up the nearest thing and whacked him with it. I wouldn't care if I was outnumbered or what . I'd rather get knocked out and a busted lip than seeing my sifu get jumped from behind.

Royal Dragon

07-25-2002, 03:18 PM

Frosty's a"Plugger" alright!!!:rolleyes:

MA fanatic

07-25-2002, 03:33 PM

I fail to see where I was wrong. I apologize if I mixed up the date of when The Fighting Black Kings was filmed. I was almost sure, in fact still am in a way, that it was filmed in the mid 1960s. But, if I"m wrong, so what? It was a full contact event, where many fighters from around the world were invited. The rules were standard bare knuckle kyokushinkai rules, but there were no weight devisions and fighting was full contact. The WC fighters got clubbered. One guy was KOed by a body shot from a Japanese karateka who was striking with a hand which had a broken thumb. The other WC guy gave up a few minutes into the match because he just couldn't take the body shots. The linear approach of WC simply failed. I would hate to see what would happen to the WC fighters had face punches and if grappling was allowed.

As for me calling William Cheung a grandmaster, I'm sorry if I was wrong, but that is what numerous publications, martial arts books, and even my own WC instructor referred to him as (I studied kung fu for 4 years).

I agree with someone who stated that it isn't the art, but the artist. Yet, here we're talking about someone who claims to be a master and the other who claims to be a grandmaster rolling around like children and not delivering a single effective blow. These are the same guys who teach a system composed of hand strikes. If a grandmaster could be taken down to the ground by a below average grappler, what would happen if a student trained in WC fought a guy who was college level wrestler?

As for Bruce studying WC, I think we all know that he later abandoned the style. He incorporated what he needed, and went on to cross train in other systems. Lee's JKD is much more than WC.

I agree that attacking a master in a middle of his own seminar was low and inappropriate. I read about Boztepe challenging Royce, but later backing out of the match. Sounds like Boztepe is the one who put that Black Eye on WC by acting like a bully, coward and some punk. I'm surprised the Kung Fu community doesn't do something about him.
MA fanatic

MA fanatic

07-25-2002, 03:36 PM

I have never nuetralized or fought a WC master. Perhaps they would destroy me. I have fought practitioners of WC who had had the same leghth of training. All I found I had to do was deliver some good hard Muay Thai kicks to the legs, and shoot in for a double leg take down. On the ground, there was virtually no resistance.
MA fanatic

SifuAbel

07-25-2002, 03:41 PM

He's more tenacious than FFAB

LEGEND

07-25-2002, 03:49 PM

Holy ****...this site carries the EMIN vs. WILLIAM CHEUNG clip perfectly!!!

Phrost

07-25-2002, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by BeiKongHui

keep saying it and maybe it'll come true.;)

I'm sorry are you an adult? I just find it hard to believe that someone with a life would take the time to create a site that detailed just in order to build a little self esteem at the expense of other people's idiocy. :rolleyes:

If that's what you think of the reason why we started the site, then you're way off base.

My self-esteem has nothing to do with the time I spend on the internet, and everything to do with the fact that I've got a successful career as a project manager for an internet company, a near 6-figure salary, a beautiful fiancee that's Playboy material, good friends, great memories from serving my country as a SGT in the best **** Army in the world, and a life that makes me happy. All of which, with 3 years to go until my 30th birthday.

Since this thread has become less about Emin Boztepe attacking an old man, and more about individual feelings, tell me: how do you feel about your mother?

LEGEND

07-25-2002, 04:20 PM

First off WC master won't spar or fight you! I have rarely seen any WC masters fight in FULL CONTACT tourneys. I have seen their students fight in SAN SHOU in B More a few times. I have trained with WILLIAM CHEUNG association in B More. Great technical theoritical stuff...pretty neat! But it's obvious to anyone that once that has trained against resisting opponents that once WILLIAM and EMIN got CLINCHED...there's not much striking( except knees ) that could be done! And yes...EMIN swept WILLIAM from the footage...I didn't see much of any BIL SAO as WILLIAM claim to be blocking...doesn't matter since I don't think u can get hurt much from inaccurate punching! The fact is...they ended up CLINCHING and the one with WRESTLING/JUDO experience took the other down and proceeded to Ground and Pound! This has nothing to do with WING CHUN is ineffective cause it already bypass that range of fighting( punch, kick, trap )...wonder now why BRUCE LEE took grappling lessons with GENE LEBEL and WALLY JAY???

SifuAbel

07-25-2002, 04:28 PM

I'm glad to see everything is so Rosy for you phrost. With all that going for you, why are you here whining like a redheaded step child about every little foible and stupidity on the internet? Could it be to promote your web site and sell tshirts and advertising, you flaming fraud.

chokeyouout

07-25-2002, 06:51 PM

Third grade schoolyard altercation at best at best.

Some much for "Master" status.

Let me guess, if either had been attacked by multiple opponets on a glass laden surface they would of chi'd each other to oblivion.

Reality sucks

What would have happened if that would of been Royce a few years ago when supposedly emin challenged him.

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Ryu

07-25-2002, 06:58 PM

:mad: I posted that clip a few months ago and everyone got mad at me! ;)

Well as far as the discussion.... I'm not sure what to say because it's all been said so much in the past.

First though.......
""If you're a martial artist, and you consider yourself good at fighting, then step in the ring/octagon/whatever, and prove your skill."

I train a mixture of JKD, Muay Thai, BJJ, and judo. You can probably consider me a MMA practitioner but I honestly don't like ring competition. It is not because I am scared, or think I am "too deadly" or other such nonsense, but my personality is rather reserved, and I don't like the large crowds, big atmosphere, lights, bikini girls, etc. Simply put "it ain't me."
I still train with the best martial artists I can (people like Paul Vunak, Carlos Machado, Vince Tamura, etc.) I enjoy rolling with people better than me who can twist me in a pretzel whenever they like. I also enjoy being able to "win" and tap people out in full contact sparring with gear and the whole nine yards.
Any time I have a "theory" about something that deals with martial arts I test it in full resistence sparring. It's the only way for me to be honest with myself.
BUT... I don't compete. I don't want to. I'm not stupid however, I don't believe I could walk into the ring today and beat a seasoned pro at the sport. But I do consider myself able to handle things in real life, and have done so numerous times with the arts I study.
I think it is unfair and actually quite mistake to claim everyone who doesn't compete believes in mystical fighters, chi flames from their fingers, OR is a fraud who can't fight for real.

Please keep in mind that not all people have the same drives or interests. Some people really do not compete because they simply "aren't interested." There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, and to claim they all must fight professionally or they're cowards is not only bullyish, but ignorant.

Anyway, I don't know if that was what you were saying exactly. If it wasn't, I apologize for coming on so strong, however I enjoy MMA very much, and I watch it and train it as much as I can. I have been involved with BJJ for about 4-5 years now, 2 of those years in respected BJJ schools and judo schools. I think I can take care of myself. I've done so before. But I don't LIKE competing in front of crowds. I like doing it by myself.

As far as some of you others who keep claiming that grappling on the street HAS to mean rolling around in guard for 10 minutes working on submissions........... sigh... A "street grappler" will slam a person onto the concrete, mount him or stand over him, or crush his knee into their chests and pummel with headbutts, elbows, fists, palms, knees, and feet.
"Ground and pound" is also a "submission"
Grappling is NOT just rolling around in guard looking for submissions. Grapplers can eye gouge, bite, pull knives and stab on the ground, etc. In fact some train to do it ......... I do.

I'm not defending either side here...... I'm just tired of the same old argument over and over again.

Not all traditional artists are weaklings who believe in fireballs out of their asses. Many are very strong, well experienced, individuals who have found out how to make their skills work in real situations.

MMA are not delusional neanderthals who don't know how to fight in the "street." MMA and NHB people can be DEADLY in the street.... to think otherwise is borderline foolish.

Everyone quit the dumb argument already.....

Ryu

jimmy23

07-25-2002, 06:59 PM

"No, the most basic wrestler would NOT be able to neutralize him in the first place"

a half way decent wrestler would have dropped his weight while in Emins clinch, and pushed his hips back, leaving himself less susceptable to the little sweep that emin used to ground the fight

diego

07-25-2002, 07:03 PM

Originally posted by NorthernMantis
I just saw the video and all I gotta say is that Emin is a punk. I can't beleive no one did anything about it. Weren't there any of William Cheung's students there too? If someone jumped my sifu like that I would have picked up the nearest thing and whacked him with it. I wouldn't care if I was outnumbered or what . I'd rather get knocked out and a busted lip than seeing my sifu get jumped from behind.

nm the wc/wc camp says emb came with 10-20 guys?, they surrounded wc in a circle and wc was informed they had bulges sticking out they coats. he said he didnt think they had guns but knives and such; and they said someone said if wc beat em they were gonna jump wc!. wc says he was in germany for the weekend teaching a seminar and didnt have a business license so he didnt want to fight or the authoritys could screw him mega.

if its true you could see how wc did nothing in his defense plus the whole slippery slippers issue!?!.:)

thats all from the net so, So.

Phrost

07-25-2002, 08:26 PM

Originally posted by SifuAbel
I'm glad to see everything is so Rosy for you phrost. With all that going for you, why are you here whining like a redheaded step child about every little foible and stupidity on the internet? Could it be to promote your web site and sell tshirts and advertising, you flaming fraud.

What am I being a fraud about?

I'm here to promote the website.

Yeah, it takes a f*cking rocket scientist to figure that one out.

Do you want a cookie or something to make you feel special for getting that?

Selling T-shirts? Hmm, well personally I think they're pretty cool, but if I sold 10 a day I still wouldn't make up the cost of running the website (which comes out of my pocket) so I don't know what point you have here.

Dude, you're a class A douche bag keyboard warrior.

But I'm not going to let you derail the thread so, have a nice day.

Dipsh|t.

fightfan

07-25-2002, 08:49 PM

Phrost, dont let Abel get to you man.
He got challenged to a cage fight by Knifefighter (a fellow MMA'ist) on this forum and backed down like a little beeeatch.
He's just pretending to have a pair safely behind his keyboard but everyone saw his true colors long ago.
LOFL!!!:D

SSgungfu

07-25-2002, 10:00 PM

This video in general is very sad. Has it come down to a respected Grandmaster rolling around with Emin, who as far as I'm concerned is a German-thug that has a MA background.

I don't doubt William could have put a chop to his neck to end his days in this world, but what example would that have set? How would that reflect on the students of WC everywhere? I think William took a blow to the ego, and thats about it. Rolling around with a joke such as Emin and quote "losing" is far better then going to jail for killing his worthless ass with your honored kung fu skills.

If Emin wanted to prove his martial arts ability, he should have challened him in a proper manner. Face to face, not an attack with your friends surrounding an old man. **** that guy.

Mr Punch

07-25-2002, 10:11 PM

When you kids have finished the slanging match...:rolleyes:

Saw this vid a while back and it's too poor quality to actually see wtf's going on, so anyone who wants to judge a whole style on this, without sparring/fighting against anyone halfway decent from that style... is full of ****.

You may believe there IS no-one halfway decent from that style: that's up to you and your ignorance.

I suspect Cheung is pretty good at what he does; I've never trained with him so I'm not going to make any judgement.

I will say he does wingchun which seems to be have varied a lot from what he was taught: variation may be improvement, it may not be. His style is a large-scale commercial style, and as such may be watered down a little in some ways. If you want to find out: go practise with him or one of his higher ranked students.

Boztepe is a lot of mouth; but again he is good at what he does... which again is varying considerably from some of the more traditional wingchun.

MAFanatic. Interesting points. But do you really believe that the guys in that black belt kyoukushinkai contest were representative of WC? There was a vid posted on the WC board a while back of the same guy doing his forms before the 'fight'. He sucked like an 8-9 month newbie. It doesn't look like the guys you fought were much use either :D . Doesn't mean they were representative.

Internal Boxer. 'even.. blah blah... would would would...'. Good analysis based on fact? Whatever :rolleyes:

Phrost. Congratulations on your salary, your Playboy-'esque' gf (does that mean she's a ho? :D ) and your history with women. I can see where the ****head flame warriors on your site get their argumentative prowess. Next time you have something relevant to say (and you've proved that you do sometimes) please come back to the board.

Mr Punch

07-25-2002, 10:21 PM

Approximately jack.

But here goes:

1) As KC said: WC groundfighting and grappling is non-existant for many lineages;

2) Situational problems can and often do come up, as may have been the case here;

3) So-called masters can (and may have had here) bad days.

4) Wingchun sucks :rolleyes: :D

If you watch a lot of NHB type fights (and I have) they often look messy and lacking in style. So no, Rogue, I didn't see (m)any WC principles in this mess, but I have seen (just one eg off the top of my head) a good Muay Thai guy get a shin kick in his eye from a good BJJer. He responded by doing what looked like a BJJ throw. So what?

No, I haven't seen any WC fighters in the ring.

No, I haven't seen any vids of it in action.

I have seen and unfortunately participated many real-life altercations (before I started WC) and have been forced to use (the tremendously inneffective :rolleyes: ) aikido and karate in them. What I did almost certainly didn't look like aiki or karate. So I could say I believe, on this experience that WC offers some solutions to self-defence situations.

Is it useful in MMA ring/cage fights? I don't give a ****!!! :D

BrentCarey

07-25-2002, 11:11 PM

I have to mostly agree with Mat (and others). Contrary to what you see in the movies, when two people are engaged in combat, stuff happens. You train to improve your odds, but things still happen that are beyond your control. Even the greatest masters are fallible.

All this video shows is a few seconds of a presumably longer combat where it is not going well for either combatant, but one happens to be larger and on top. I have seen nothing to lead me to believe the people in the video are who they are reported to be. In fact, all indications from the video (poor as it is) suggest to me that the people are very likely two other people.

The complete confrontation may have gone quite differently from what we see in this snippet.

Another point - Even if this was Mr. Cheung, what difference does it make. Is someone planning on hiring him as a body guard? No? Then why do we care? It is odd to me that the martial arts community holds its instructors to such standards. If you want to know how good an instructor is, look at his students. If you want to know how good Mr. Cheung is, look at the instructors he has taught and their students.

Look at coaches from other sports - football, baseball, figure skating, gymnastics, etc. Are they great athletes as a rule? No, but they train great athletes. These sports recognize that excellence comes from within the individual. Why can't the martial arts community stop living in a fantasy world, believing that excellence comes from some omnipotent master or deadly style?

In fact, in my experience, many of the greatest martial artists I have seen would make terrible instructors, and some of the best instructors were mediocre martial artists. These two skills are not mutually inclusive. It is possible to have both, but it is certainly not guaranteed.

Best regards,

Brent Carey

SifuAbel

07-25-2002, 11:24 PM

First off when i fight someone is up to me and no one else. say what you want I could care less.

Phrosty , am I getting on your nerves? Good. Do sumpin' about it. Armchair or not there aint a darn thing you can say that will get me off your back. Mcdojo indeed, how high and mighty we are.
admit it, You don't give a crap about that mcdojo stuff. This is just another internet web money machine for you. Mcdojo .com IS a mcdojo by your own definition.

You're not going to advertise on your site? Man, I thought FFAb was bad but buddy boy here is just off the hook trying to get signups.

I can see it all now. You in your internet company thinking "hey, lets start a web site that is specifically for people to diss other arts, being that they do this anyway, and make money for content already rehashed a million times on other sites. Good show, brilliant. praying on peoples urge to gripe and moan as the main theme. man!, you are good. And people filling their self importance thinking that they will actually make a difference. I applaude you sir. You make the devil feel like an amateur.

Serpent

07-25-2002, 11:39 PM

Originally posted by SifuAbel
praying on peoples urge to gripe and moan as the main theme. man!, you are good. And people filling their self importance thinking that they will actually make a difference.

Abel, you just described your input on this board to a tee!

Gripe? Check.
Moan? Check.
Self importance? Check.

Twat? Oh, check!

SifuAbel

07-25-2002, 11:41 PM

Hey, you are what you eat, dicck.

Serpent

07-25-2002, 11:45 PM

Oh, very good! Well done.

You are indeed a *****. We finally agreed on something.

By the way, dick only has one 'c'. ;)

AdrianUK

07-26-2002, 01:04 AM

Ok heres my 2 cents

Has anyone got the full video, if there is one, start to finish ? I have heard stories from both sides about the start etc, though I doubt he was jumped from behind, I mean if you attacked someone from behind how did they end up facing each other ? Anyway, unless someone can show the start no comment on how it started. The finish, terrible, but then I heard it was after this that they (Boztepe / Kernspecht) added more grappling background into WT. As an aside the WC I used to do the intructors trained with top Judo guys (Neil Adams and Brian Jacks) for a long time in privates for ground work and now they respect WT groundwork so maybe theres something there now. As for Emin now, well having been to a seminar recently, if you want to try him, good luck. If you think hes crap go to a seminar and challenge him, from what I hear he will oblige.

So really without the full fight start to finish comments are subjective

Peace

MA fanatic

07-26-2002, 04:09 AM

Like I said, I don't blame a guy for "losing." Hell we all could lose. I think the stories of men carrying weapons, 20 men threatening to attack WC should he defeat Boztepe, and men wearing special padding, sound like stories from a Sunday afternoon Kung Fu movie. And what license is WC talking about? I'm sure Boztepe had his guys there to assure that WCs guys don't intervene. I doubt they would have attacked with weapons in some mass slaughter movie like knife fight against WC and his students. Should WCs students have intervened, perhaps. At least someone should have called the cops. I disagree with Boztepe challenging WC. I doubt he came from behind. As far as I'm concerned, every time a Kung Fu guy loses a fight (when it's documented), for some reason, the Kung Fu community starts talking about the guy not being a "real master." This time a "Grandmaster" and a man who was passing on the knowledge of Yip Man got beaten. How much higher could you go. (There were other WC guys who fought in Extreme Fighting Championship 2...fighting Igor Zinoviev...Pride Championship...fighting Rickson, and UFC...fighting some unkown kickboxer). As for Fighting Black Kings, those Kung Fu guys were a joke. I would never think they represent WC. ACtually, I can't see them representing anything. They stood no chance from the moment they stepped into the ring with the Japanese fighters who were built like tanks. I think that if Boztepe was that good and into challenging people, why not fight a few NHB fights and truly make a statement how effective the style of WC he teaches is.
MA fanatic

red5angel

07-26-2002, 06:05 AM

AdrianUK, I have seen a longer version of the video, but was told it still wasnt everything. Cheung wasnt jumped from behind although he was sucker punched. Its not an excuse mind you, the guy was standing in front of him, obvioulsy wanted to fight and so should have been prepared.
Anyway, the dominant position changes onece or twice but generally Emin likes to go to the ground, he has a background in wrestling and I believe Judo, if you go to his site I am sure he has plenty of stuff on himself there.
Brent and Mat I think have it correct, the situations were as unfavorouble as they probably get, multiple potential attackers, slippery floor, etc....Neither of them was going to perform at top efficiency but hey, thats the way it goes.
My whole thing about this is that if W Cheung wants to make claims he should be able to back them up. He neutralized Emin pretty well, Emin rarely got any sort of telling blow in, but couldnt get any of his own shots in. On the other hand this was purely to feed Emins ego.

BeiKongHui

07-26-2002, 06:12 AM

My self-esteem has nothing to do with the time I spend on the internet, and everything to do with the fact that I've got a successful career as a project manager for an internet company, a near 6-figure salary, a beautiful fiancee that's Playboy material, good friends, great memories from serving my country as a SGT in the best **** Army in the world, and a life that makes me happy. All of which, with 3 years to go until my 30th birthday.

Yeheaah okay, let us guess you're a rock star and an underwear model on the weekends.:rolleyes: Of course your self esteem has nothing to do with how much time you spend on the net. However, you are obsessed with proseletyzing, and trying to gain respect by belittling others. Which, unfortunately, seems to be quite common for martial artists. The level of emotion that comes into play from many MMA's when discussing "traditional" arts borders on a pathology. I think I'll do a study on it.

rogue

07-26-2002, 06:20 AM

OK, here's what we know. The two fighters are both considered to be expert WC fighters with good reputations in regards to their supposed(can't prove Emins street record) street fighting/HK fight encounters. From what I can tell neither one used anything closely resembling any WC that I've seen. Was there any rooting, structure, trapping? He!! a chain punch would have been nice. These are both WC fighters and they didn't use any techniques or concepts of WC that I could see with my untrained eye.

This is the problem, everyone including the two fighters are making excuses for why things went down the way they did. It was the shoes/the floor(what happened to rooting?), I wasn't on my game that day, they neuralized each other, I didn't expect to be jumped(some guy challenging you and being surrounded wasn't enough of a clue?). WC makes a lot of claims about it's effectiveness as a street art but all that video showed was that two supposed masters(given it was 16 years ago) couldn't bring their system into play, attacking or defending, when they needed to. I believe from working out with WC people that WC is still a system that makes a lot of sense but without good practical training all the theory is useless and that's a fact that that all martial artists have to realize about their arts.

I have seen and unfortunately participated many real-life altercations (before I started WC) and have been forced to use (the tremendously inneffective ) aikido and karate in them. What I did almost certainly didn't look like aiki or karate. So I could say I believe, on this experience that WC offers some solutions to self-defence situations.

Mat, I've succesfully used an aiki based art on the street (muggings and fights) several times and even used a move I learned at Fred Villaris, but then I was training very seriously at the time. What's it mean? Not much since I also got clobbered during stupid brawls.
BTW Jogging also offers some solutions to self defense situations. ;)

WCFighter

07-26-2002, 06:49 AM

Hi everyone,

I'm surprised the moderator hasn't closed this topic.

It's not really constructive to bash.

I'll just tell you what I heard.

GM Cheung was invited to hold a seminar in Germany.
This was organized by people who wanted to set up Cheung for an ambush. They encouraged Cheung to get into Traditional Chinese attire (slippers and clothing) for a camera shoot. Ordinarily he wouldn't wear chinese slippers on a polished floor.
Anyway, that's when Boztepe and his entourage show up.

Cheung didn't want to injure him because he was teaching in a foreign country, didn't know the law, and therefore didn't want to end up in jail there. I can imagine that they are almost as bad as in mexico. So, he wasn't even trying...on purpose.

Cheung was a top fighter in HK and commanded a lot of respect from his fellow practicioners. Bruce often told his students, Dan Inosanto & Co., that he considered William Cheung to be the ultimate fighter, and held tremendous respect for him. He doesn't have to prove himself to anyone.

If some doubting thomases ever touched hands/sparred with his masters, they would change their minds about whether his flavor of wing chun is effective or not.

I know a lot of people who have switched to his flavor of wing chun from other wing chun schools.

That is not to say that we ARE the best, but definately ONE of the best.

WCFighter

Flattop Monk

07-26-2002, 06:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fa_Jing...
" You're speaking without knowledge. William Chueng used to be VERY buff (look in his books sometime), and Emin was and still is EXTREMELY buff. Neither of them could be described as "scrawny."

And I think either one of them in their prime would have a fair shot against Bruce Lee. Howzabout that?

This guy just might be the best WC man out there: Tom Wong. Check out this website, and I've independently confirmed this guy is legit: wingchunw.com And the man supposedly bench pressed 400, that's alot for a Wing Chun guy. "_

Fa_Jing, you are the one who speaks without knowledge.

I have seen William Cheung, back then, and yes he is scrawny. Scrawny is a relative term, compared to a 130lb weakling, he is Hercules. Compared to any strength trainer, he is a pathetic weakling. Certainly for someone whe made a statement saying he is the world's deadliest fighter.

I also seen Emin Boztepe on MA World. Believe me, he is scrawny. "Buff" means lack of fat, not necessarily muscle. Believe me, these guys together could not equal my poundages before I hurt my arm.

As for either one of these guys being able to beat Bruce Lee, Bruce was able to grapple. He would have easily choked out or broke a limb of either of these clowns.

In general, not just Wing Chun, the "Grand Master" who says he can beat anyone, but never actually enters fighting tournaments, is usually out for a buck.

rogue

07-26-2002, 07:13 AM

So, he wasn't even trying...on purpose. :eek:
Wouldn't the smarter move be to frustrate Emins attacks by using trapping and footwork rather than be taken to the ground? I'm sure both fighters have rethunked their tactics and strategies since then.

FTM, What the heck does Bruce Lee have to do with this fight?

Flattop Monk

07-26-2002, 07:18 AM

Rogue:

I pointed out in my post for the benefit of the people who were making fun of Wing Chin that it was Bruce Lee's first style, and that I think it is a practical striking system. I was replying to someone who said he thinks William Cheung could beat Bruce.

You Wing Chun people would know better than me, I sparred someone who does Wing Chun once, I've seen a class, but I have never studied the style. I don't think it is right to bad mouth a style unless you actually spent some time practicing it.

rogue

07-26-2002, 07:40 AM

FTM, Whoops, I missed the WC vs BL comment. Considering Lee's legendary fight in his pre-JKD days I think he would have just smiled at the two having been there himself. To you WC/WC guys, has WC changed his footwork or tactics to work better in non-optimal situations (ie slippery floor)?

NPMantis

07-26-2002, 08:20 AM

http://www.webbsma.com/

"...it is the aim of all students to become a black belt."

Shaolindynasty

07-26-2002, 08:21 AM

Hey that was a pretty dam decent post ryu. Now I see why you have groupies!:D

rogue

07-26-2002, 08:35 AM

I don't know NPMantis, the guy is a Shihan.;)

PHILBERT

07-26-2002, 11:27 AM

Warning: Following statements by me contain fowl language.

Originally posted by Flattop Monk
I also seen Emin Boztepe on MA World. Believe me, he is scrawny. "Buff" means lack of fat, not necessarily muscle. Believe me, these guys together could not equal my poundages before I hurt my arm.

You are a ****ing retard for saying Emin is scrawny. Who gives a **** if he isnt a body builder? Go ahead and post your photo, lets see if you are as buff as you claim. By the way, here's a few photos of Emin.

http://64.45.10.30/pages/EMIN%20POTOS/EMINWORKOUT2.jpg
http://64.45.10.30/pages/EMIN%20POTOS/EMINWORKOUT4.jpg
http://64.45.10.30/pages/EMIN%20POTOS/EMINWORKOUT5.jpg

Now I cant locate any photos of William Cheung in his earlier days, but he is still pretty **** buff for a guy who is 60.

As for WT ground fighting. WT ground fighting isn't like wrestling ground fighting (like in BJJ). WT ground fighting consists of striking parts of the opponent, knee caps, genitals, ankles, etc. Then getting back up. And by the way, from what I've heard (my instructor knows Emin personally as do some of my classmates and I might get to meet him later this year), he is one tough son of a *****. Im not saying he is unstoppable and I think what he did to William Cheung was wrong. But I also think you are a retard.

Phrost

07-26-2002, 07:09 PM

Originally posted by Mat
Phrost. Congratulations on your salary, your Playboy-'esque' gf (does that mean she's a ho? :D ) and your history with women. I can see where the ****head flame warriors on your site get their argumentative prowess. Next time you have something relevant to say (and you've proved that you do sometimes) please come back to the board.

Thanks, I think.

I try to be rational when it comes to my opinions, and even moreso now that I'm running a website with a subject I have a strong opinion on.

If anyone hasn't already figured it out, I've been trying to get more level headed people over there to water down a bit of the flames.

Good forum you guys have here, by the way.

Mr Punch

07-26-2002, 07:49 PM

Good post Rogue, but...

Originally posted by rogue
... From what I can tell neither one used anything closely resembling any WC that I've seen. Was there any rooting, structure, trapping? He!! a chain punch would have been nice. These are both WC fighters and they didn't use any techniques or concepts of WC that I could see with my untrained eye...

As for the comment about not seeing any WC: see below below!

On a slight digression (but still related-ish) I've asked this before and I'll ask again until I get a decent answer: why is it that people so often list 'trapping' as a primary WC skill/objective (a lot of WCers included)? Chain punching, fair enough, though I would argue with the term 'chain' punch (check out the WC forum for concepts of lim lek and see if the mechanical image of chain punching fits)... but trapping is an added bonus, not a primary objective. The only reason I bring it up (without wanting to go off on a major rant about WC) is that There are more important things to watch for than trapping, though unfortunately, as Cheung said he was trying to limit the damage to Boztepe, I would have thought some of those would have come up... and I can't see his biu jee that he claimed to have thrown up in defence...

It was the shoes/the floor(what happened to rooting...

Agreed that there are too many excuses, but this one is a bit off... are you suggesting that situational differences don't make a difference? Ever tried rooting on ice?

insert MA here
...is still a system that makes a lot of sense but without good practical training all the theory is useless and that's a fact that that all martial artists have to realize about their arts.

Good and oft-repeated point. Needs repeating a lot more!

Mat, I've succesfully used an aiki based art on the street (muggings and fights) several times and even used a move I learned at Fred Villaris, but then I was training very seriously at the time. What's it mean? Not much since I also got clobbered during stupid brawls.
BTW Jogging also offers some solutions to self defense situations. ;)

Yep... didn't mean that much when I said it either... :D but I brought that up as another example (outside of the ring) when your martial art doesn't look like your martial art. I don't give a **** what my technique looks like when I'm fighting, but of course, I want my structure to fit certain mechanical principles which may have to look **** fine!!! :D :cool:

Mr Punch

07-26-2002, 07:56 PM

This whole thread is whack: looking at those pix of Boztepe Philbert just offered Cheung should have kicked his miserable ass for coming out of his mother!

He is one butt-ugly sob! Someone needs to kick his sorry puss into some kind of recognisable shape!

BTW Boztepe, if you ever read this my name isn't really Mat.

SifuAbel

07-26-2002, 09:18 PM

"I try to be rational when it comes to my opinions"

What a two face............

rogue

07-26-2002, 09:41 PM

Mat glad we're not flaming, just arguing some points.

Agreed that there are too many excuses, but this one is a bit off... are you suggesting that situational differences don't make a difference? Ever tried rooting on ice? Not really off. If an art that stress' the importance of rooting as much as WC does, should also include training in what to do when rooting isn't possible. The difference between training for the street and training for the dojo is that I know something will go wrong on the street. I've never tried rooting on ice but I have done kata on a hillside, in the snow and on a balance beam(unsuccesfully). Cheung may be good at WC but he dropped the ball on all the real world stuff. Emin has no excuse for not using more WC since he was the attacker.

Good and oft-repeated point. Needs repeating a lot more! I stole if from Ginchin Funakoshi.

but I brought that up as another example (outside of the ring) when your martial art doesn't look like your martial art. Never mind the street, I call it a good night when it looks like my art in the dojo! I'm sure what I think I pulled off on the street looked nothing like what I actually did. But as time passes I remember that technique looking better and better.:D

ArrowFists

07-27-2002, 03:33 AM

Originally posted by MA fanatic
I fail to see where I was wrong. I apologize if I mixed up the date of when The Fighting Black Kings was filmed. I was almost sure, in fact still am in a way, that it was filmed in the mid 1960s. But, if I"m wrong, so what? It was a full contact event, where many fighters from around the world were invited. The rules were standard bare knuckle kyokushinkai rules, but there were no weight devisions and fighting was full contact. The WC fighters got clubbered. One guy was KOed by a body shot from a Japanese karateka who was striking with a hand which had a broken thumb. The other WC guy gave up a few minutes into the match because he just couldn't take the body shots. The linear approach of WC simply failed. I would hate to see what would happen to the WC fighters had face punches and if grappling was allowed.

Fighting Black Kings is a classic documentary, I'd recommend it to any serious Martial Artist, or fighting ethusiast. Not only does the film show the tournament, it shows the (in)famous Kyokushin 30 man black belt test.

A friend of mine who practices CMA said that the Kung Fu guys weren't the top exponents of the style. Heh, nice excuse. In short, the kung fu guys got worked, big time, and it was mostly because they looked malnurished. Even the Japanese participants looked healthier than the Chinese fighters.

Basically this film shows what happens when you put huge black guys in the ring with small Asian "masters". You have a black guy with a "beast-like physique" punching a pine tree, and almost knocking it over, and then you had some skinny Chinese guy doing animal forms on a cliff overlooking Shanghai.

Yes, size does matter.

Ryu

07-27-2002, 07:39 AM

"Even the Japanese participants looked healthier than the Chinese fighters"

Yeah, you know, because the Japanese are famous for being so unhealthy....

????????? What in the world did this sentence mean? :confused:

Many of the Japanese in that documentary were as big as some of the Americans. And beat a couple soundly if I can remember right. (Been a while since I've seen FBK)

Ryu

Phrost

07-27-2002, 08:27 AM

Originally posted by SifuAbel
"I try to be rational when it comes to my opinions"

What a two face............

Speaking of pushing T-shirts and all that rot, we've got a T-Shirt dedicated to you Abel:

http://www.mcdojo.com/images/keybowarsm.gif

Get yours today!

SifuAbel

07-27-2002, 05:22 PM

Bwahahahaha

thats a good one

Boy, I got you jumpin' like a two dollar hooker on crack.

Ok, time to salivate

Pantywaist. You're pathetic. All that time in the military and you crack like white china. What did you do? KP? Were you the military's top spud pealer? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

jimmy23

07-27-2002, 07:01 PM

Abel , you could get into the miltary too, just remember the "dont ask , dont tell " rule.

SifuAbel

07-27-2002, 09:24 PM

Are you speaking from experience? thanks for the advice. admit it, you're gay. Just like phrost. LOL!

Mr Punch

07-27-2002, 11:06 PM

Originally posted by rogue
Mat glad we're not flaming, just arguing some points.

Aaaah, ya ***** assed pantywaist two-dollar hooker on crack! (Sorry, not very good at that, just borrowed it from Abel :o Another couple of uses and I'll be another keyboard warrior ready to roll!!!)

Not really off...

OK. Fair enough. Personally I train kata, and sparring whenever and wherever I can! I wasn't saying they shouldn't have trained/been trained in that way, just that Cheung had mentioned the 'being forced' to wear slippers thing on a slidey floor... but it's no excuse really.

Never mind the street, I call it a good night when it looks like my art in the dojo!...

Yeah, I hear you there!!! And yeah, in another couple of years, I WILL have been Gichin Funakoshi in my street altercations, and I don't even do shotokan!! :D

jimmy23

07-27-2002, 11:11 PM

"admit it, you're gay. Just like phrost"

I would LOVE to see you and barnoneguerra from the UG in a flame war, it would be the funniest tard on tard battle the world has ever seen!!!!

Mr Punch

07-27-2002, 11:19 PM

Originally posted by ArrowFists

Fighting Black Kings is a classic documentary, I'd recommend it to any serious Martial Artist, or fighting ethusiast. Not only does the film show the tournament, it shows the (in)famous Kyokushin 30 man black belt test.

Yes, it's interesting.

A friend of mine who practices CMA said that the Kung Fu guys weren't the top exponents of the style. Heh, nice excuse. In short, the kung fu guys got worked, big time, and it was mostly because they looked malnurished. Even the Japanese participants looked healthier than the Chinese fighters.

This isn't.

How can I put this politely? This is crap! Oh - ****, failed again! :D

It wasn't a nice excuse, it was a good reason. The WC guy was not only not a top exponent of the style but HE WAS TERRIBLE AT WINGCHUN. The vid of him practising his form beforehand overlooking Shanghai, or wherever has already been ridiculed by the WCers on our forum. Most of us with any fighting experience/cross training experience/common sense know there are some weak points in our style, and we know what they are. This joker's 'Wingchun' is not one of them!!

In short the kungfu guy got worked because he was crap.

And what the hell does your sentence about the Japanese mean? I've sparred/trained with more Japanese than you've even seen on that vid, and a lot of them are buff AND know what they're doing, so keep your crap like this to yourself :mad:

Yes, size does matter.

Brains and mouth too mate... :D :p

Mr Punch

07-27-2002, 11:21 PM

Maybe you'd like to start another thread and leave this one to the grown-ups...!?:rolleyes: :D

chokeyouout

07-28-2002, 04:38 AM

Hey Mrs. Abel,

Here's a real conclusion for you.Go enter a tournament where people fight, then pop your mouth off.I not referring to a monkey fu pose off,but a nhb style match.Until then, keep your juvenile two dollar opinions to yourself and your pansy students.How do you run a functional school?how do you convince your students that what you're selling them is nothing more than a martial arts movie?Wow, you must really be a good con.Did you get beat up as a child?let's hear your reflective gay comments now monkey boy!

ArrowFists

07-28-2002, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by Mat

This isn't.

How can I put this politely? This is crap! Oh - ****, failed again! :D

It wasn't a nice excuse, it was a good reason. The WC guy was not only not a top exponent of the style but HE WAS TERRIBLE AT WINGCHUN. The vid of him practising his form beforehand overlooking Shanghai, or wherever has already been ridiculed by the WCers on our forum. Most of us with any fighting experience/cross training experience/common sense know there are some weak points in our style, and we know what they are. This joker's 'Wingchun' is not one of them!!

In short the kungfu guy got worked because he was crap.

Hey, hey. My bad, seriously. I hadn't seen the film in a long time, but I saw it again yesterday. You're right, the Wing Chun did look pretty sloppy, and to be honest, the guy looked like a joke.

Then again, we have the Bozetepe/Cheung clip, and these "masters" of Wing Chun looked just as bad when they threw down. So ::shrugs::

Rolling Elbow

07-28-2002, 07:17 PM

http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/photos.asp

You can find a bunch of pics of Cheung in 83 with his shirt off on this site. Don't buy the old "Elder" argument, if you add 3 years of training to Cheung's body there is no reason he still wouldn't have been able to kick some serious ass.

In my opinion, and Emin has said this since his split with Kernspect and ting, we should be focusing more on the cowardice of Ting not fighting Cheung himself and sending someone to "feel out" his skills instead.! As for Bruce's comments regarding Cheung...., was this pre-grappling introduction or after it?

Flattop Monk

07-30-2002, 08:52 AM

Quote

"You are a ****ing retard for saying Emin is scrawny. Who gives a **** if he isnt a body builder? Go ahead and post your photo, lets see if you are as buff as you claim. By the way, here's a few photos of Emin."

Philbert:

Pretty nasty stuff. I did not see those pics, I did see him on MA World years ago and he was skinny. As for posting pics' I don't. I am in therapy for having my bicep reattached to the elbow joint. I will be lifting baby weight for around another 5 or 6 months.

I am a ****ing retard? It is spelled "retart". I don't post pics, nor do I have much use for a camera. I can't take anything decent now since I am up to curling 7 pound dumbbells and don't have all my mobility yet. Think what you want, I did not want to really **** anyone off, but since you have to know, I was up to squatting 385 for a perfect single, 310 for 3 sets of 5, stiff leg deadlifts with 210- knees locked bar touches the instep on the bottom and comes up for 3 sets of 5. Right now I am a wreck. 3 or 4 months from now, I will be back working out in Crunch- Lafayette St. NYC. I usually lift Monday's and Thursday's- between 5:30 and 7:00 PM. There is one White Guy with a flattop who spends considerable time at the Squat Rack, deadlift bench, and does dips w/ weight on a belt. I am the only one there who fits that description. Stop by and say hello then.

BrentCarey

07-30-2002, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by Flattop Monk
I am a ****ing retard? It is spelled "retart"

No, actually it's spelled "retard".

rubthebuddha

07-30-2002, 01:22 PM

actually, no, it's "retart." he's referring to his near-six-figure job at the donut shop and re-stocking some of the fruit-laden pastries.

this guy reminds me of someone who was here about six months ago who had some inherent need to talk about himself a lot -- his salary, his stats from the weight room, etc. -- who finally shut up and got back to better issues. anyone remember who that was, and what provoked the change in attitude?

Flattop Monk

07-30-2002, 01:43 PM

"this guy reminds me of someone who was here about six months ago who had some inherent need to talk about himself a lot -- his salary, his stats from the weight room, etc. -- who finally shut up and got back to better issues. anyone remember who that was, and what provoked the change in attitude?"

I was insulted, the guy seemed interested in what I can and can't do. I don't have any need to talk about myself rtb, I have a lot more to talk about than my poundagesif that were the case. I did list my gym, nights and the hrs I train, and when I will be back, just in case someone wants to say something to my face.

ewallace

07-30-2002, 01:45 PM

I think that 6-figure salary was probably kung fu bandit in the Al colangelo thread.

Abstract

07-30-2002, 08:25 PM

i just watched that and seriously. what the hell was that? one guy tackles the other, man, that looked really silly.:rolleyes:

PHILBERT

07-30-2002, 10:59 PM

Warning: Following may contain graphic language.

Flattop Monk, all I saw there were a bunch of numbers. Those could be the truth or the lies. You gotta have a photo lying around somewhere of you in that kind of shape. Besides, its not like you'd loose all that muscle in a few weeks. I didnt provoke you to tell me what you can and can't lift. I said I wanna see a photo of you to PROVE you are not as scrawny as Boztepe or Cheung combined. Come on Roid, lets see what you've got.

Anyone can throw numbers out. Jay Leno made a joke when it was "discovered" that THINKING of lifting weights can make you stronger. He said "Whew, I was about to bench 300 lb when I got tired. I think I might of pulled a muscle on that."

It's just that, numbers. Until I see it, you can be bull****ting me.

chingei

07-31-2002, 05:42 AM

Originally posted by red5angel

If two grandmasters cant apply their art in any effective way in a brawl, I wonder what that implies about the art.....
I practice wingchun, if I cant get it to work it would be my failling.

what if no one can make it work?

jimmy23

07-31-2002, 06:57 AM

No chingei, thats heresy to say that:eek:

Flattop Monk

07-31-2002, 11:01 AM

Philbert:

I don't give a sh*t what you think. I don't post pic's on the web or leave my real name and personal info anywhere on the web. I have not even mentioned where I do MA or anything else. I have had enough of this thread. I really did not want to p*ss anyone off with the exception of the 2 characters involved. Not for the incident itself, but because of claims to greatness they themselves made. I have a couple of freinds who used to train at Moy Yat's school in NYC, and they were embarrased about the incident. Claims to be the world's most deadly fighter, or criticizing a guy-(Royce Gracie) who is risking his life against guys twice his size is bullsh*t.

I did leave the gym where I train, my usual hrs, and when the Doc tells me I will be back. I suggest you let this drop, I have nothing personally against you, but I don't need insults. If you insist, I can meet with you.

By the way, read my original post in the health and training section. Take a freakin guess how much weight it takes to make your bicep pop loose from the elbow joint and snap up into your shoulder like a rubber band. Belive me, the weight it takes is significant.

rubthebuddha

07-31-2002, 01:34 PM

flattop,

i insulted you? hopefully your feelings are as strong as your squats and you don't put much cred in my opinions on you personally. for all you guys know, i could be someone as tubby as ralek/rolls and with personality to match.

one problem: i owe you an apology -- i got some of your **** mixed up with phrost. i put your gym stats and his arrogance about being making $$$ and his impressive-sounding girlfriend together. that was my bad, and i've slapped myself silly for it.

so i guess i hate you only half as much. :)

kidding. and about the bicep? know the feeling. off-angle lift of a sandbag at work years back left me as a lefty for a bit. but we don't need to be reminded of your pobrecito bicep on a thrice-daily basis. we know you're a-hurtin.

rubthebuddha

07-31-2002, 01:41 PM

now back to the original topic... cheung was a chump for a few reasons:

1. issuing an open-door "anytime, anywhere" invite isn't too bright.
2. using "not in my seniority" as an excuse. just fight the guy and prove that even silly people don't stand a chance.
3. using the slipper excuse. if i show up at 3 a.m. and he's in his boxers and bunny slippers, doesn't that qualify as anytime, anywhere?
4. not recognizing that someone who wants to fight you isn't the best person to turn your back on and walk away from. idiot. :rolleyes:
5. thinking that, after everyone's seen the video, that he'll be believed whehn he says that he actually did anything of measure in his defense.
6. not taking advantage of the opportunity, in front of bunches of students, to show why TWC is supposedly the best.

honestly, i know there are a million more reasons and i know it's in retrospect, but ****, at least ONE of these reasons should have popped up at the time.

but to be fair and balanced, i'll just say this: emin's a thug. a skilled, strong thug, but he's still just a thug.

ArrowFists

07-31-2002, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by jimmy23
No chingei, thats heresy to say that:eek:

Heh heh

Archangel

11-08-2002, 12:26 PM

Absolutely brutal, that guys arm isn't supposed to bend what way.

http://www.mcdojo.com

Dragon Warrior

11-08-2002, 12:35 PM

cool video, i dont knwo what that guy was thinking
he should have tapped a lot earlier

Royal Dragon

11-08-2002, 01:26 PM

That fighter was a moron. FIRST, he should have at least TRIED to step back, sprawl or something to avoid the takedown, Instead he leaned forward and literally fell into his arms.

THEN, wile on the ground, he was posiitoned to wrap around the BBJer's head and choke him out. Instead, it looks like he used a pressure point attack, which did loosen the BJJer up, only to redirect his attack.

THEN!!!, he had his hand on his chin trying to push his head away. "I" would have grabed his addams apple and squezed the life out of him till he tapped (Eagle claw would have been perfect).

There are at least 3 major mistakes this guy did, and we once again have a BJJ rules, and TMA's suck video when the BJJ guy should have had is ass handed to him EVEN AFTER THE TAKEDOWN!!!.

wtinfo

11-08-2002, 01:31 PM

" "I" would have ... "

Then why don't you do it? I agree I don't like the BJJ is everything fanbois they are just as ignorant saying I would have ... dossent amount to anything either though if you aren't going to do it.

Maybe a he should have ... would be better.

Anyway good training to you all

PHILBERT

11-08-2002, 01:43 PM

There is also a Wing Chun vs Karate video clip on the download section. The first part shows 2 guys doing Wing Chun, horribly, then a match between a karate guy and supposedly a Wing Chun guy. Other than the fact the Wing Chun guys throws punches like a school girl and are thrown more like round punches than chain punches. Looked like he was watching some DBZ.

What I think about that though is this, there is more to the video than what we see. Maybe before the WC part was some Hung Gar, and after the karate match is some Choy Lay Fut, Shaolin, etc. Someone just edited the video to show the karate match and the Wing Chun guys and so people say its Wing Chun vs Karate.

Archangel

11-08-2002, 01:46 PM

Look again,

At the 43 second mark of the video the Karate fighter had his hand directly on the BJJ fighters throat. All the BJJ guy did was pivot his body and push his forearm away. It's a whole different world on the ground and the principles that work standing up have to adjusted for the ground. It all comes with experience, it's obvious the karate guy didn't have knowledge of the basic principles of grappling and he payed for it.

Felipe Bido

11-08-2002, 03:04 PM

Grabbing the throat alone (without following up with something else) won't stop a guy on his tracks. His natural reaction would be of grabbing the arm, move the head away from the throat grab, or apply a jointlock.

KC Elbows

11-08-2002, 03:18 PM

HOW TO DEFEAT A BJJER ON THE MAT:
Say "Is that a Gracie", then, while the bjjer is distracted, bring in multiple opponents, all trained in eye gouges, and work him over for a while on broken bottles.

HOW TO DEFEAT A BJJER ON THE INTERNET:
Turn on his spell checker and watch him complain about the 'stupid font color'.

Felipe Bido

11-08-2002, 03:19 PM

Just an interesting note:

When the Karate guy grabbed the face of the BJJ guy (first he grabs his neck, then he looks for the eyes) The guys say "No se vale!" "A los ojos no se vale!" (It's not allowed! to the eyes is not allowed!"). The karate guy had a decent position (Not the best one).

If they would have allowed eye gouges, do you think the outcome of the fight would have been another? Just curious

I'll check the exact time mark

Edit: at 29 seconds

ewallace

11-08-2002, 03:30 PM

Of course it's all speculation at this point but no I don't think the outcome would have been any different.

Remember folks, we are seeing everything from a much different angle than they are.

SevenStar

11-08-2002, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
That fighter was a moron. FIRST, he should have at least TRIED to step back, sprawl or something to avoid the takedown, Instead he leaned forward and literally fell into his arms.

THEN, wile on the ground, he was posiitoned to wrap around the BBJer's head and choke him out. Instead, it looks like he used a pressure point attack, which did loosen the BJJer up, only to redirect his attack.

THEN!!!, he had his hand on his chin trying to push his head away. "I" would have grabed his addams apple and squezed the life out of him till he tapped (Eagle claw would have been perfect).

There are at least 3 major mistakes this guy did, and we once again have a BJJ rules, and TMA's suck video when the BJJ guy should have had is ass handed to him EVEN AFTER THE TAKEDOWN!!!.

two of the mistakes you mentioned are two he may not have made if he had some grappling experience. The third, archangel already addressed.

If anyone wants to see other thoughts, maoshan posted a link to this ved a few days ago on the internal thread. The thread there has several pages, mainly bickering though, as usual on the internal board.

MonkeySlap Too

11-08-2002, 05:24 PM

Eh, my sparring experience has shown me that I can usually control a fight from the stand-up. But, occasionally you WILL go down, and all the theories are nice about what happens and what you can do, but these guys are fighting there all the time and have evolved their art. Remember the old Chinese maxim "Without knowledge you are useless, without skill you are helpless." Well, without understanding and fighting these guys, TMA people become both useless and helpless.

And because the MMA types fight, they learn. The tricks I used first at the stand-up don't work anymore on the guys I fight regularly - I'm forced to keep evolving - and so do they.

But 'they's' mighty good on the ground, I take no shame in admitting the modern mma type does have a thing or two to teach the rest of us. (I just wish it didn't make me puke after too much groundfighting. I F@$#$%#! hate getting older.)

Personally, I think CMA is poisoned by the cult of the teacher. Your teachers are not supermen, and we would be all much better if we realized that. You should respect your teacher, but take him off the pedestal so he can risk himself without losing face. I mean, WTF, the JKD types let Danny Inosanto explore and try knew things. He's not afraid to get the crap beaten out of himself when learning new things. Why do we in the CMA world get so hung up?

And WTF - Tim Cartmell puts himself out there, so there's a positive role model, eh?

end rant...

SevenStar

11-08-2002, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too

Personally, I think CMA is poisoned by the cult of the teacher. Your teachers are not supermen, and we would be all much better if we realized that. You should respect your teacher, but take him off the pedestal so he can risk himself without losing face. I mean, WTF, the JKD types let Danny Inosanto explore and try knew things. He's not afraid to get the crap beaten out of himself when learning new things. Why do we in the CMA world get so hung up?

And WTF - Tim Cartmell puts himself out there, so there's a positive role model, eh?

end rant...

I think you hit the nail on the head with that one. There are teachers who

1. Don't want to go back to being a beginner
2. Try something new and risk getting beaten.

IMO, it's an ego thing. When you are training, there really is no room for that. One of the guys at bjj was a national level competitor, and won a few times if I'm not mistaken. When he came to bjj, he got spanked repeatedly, and it was frustrating. Now, three years later, he's a purple belt and can rip apart most of the class. He wasn't afraid/ashamed to once again become a beginner. We need more of that in CMA.

Godzilla

11-08-2002, 06:06 PM

>>That fighter was a moron. FIRST, he should have at least TRIED to step back, sprawl or something to avoid the takedown, Instead he leaned forward and literally fell into his arms.

>>THEN, wile on the ground, he was posiitoned to wrap around the BBJer's head and choke him out. Instead, it looks like he used a pressure point attack, which did loosen the BJJer up, only to redirect his attack.

>>THEN!!!, he had his hand on his chin trying to push his head away. "I" would have grabed his addams apple and squezed the life out of him till he tapped (Eagle claw would have been perfect).

>>There are at least 3 major mistakes this guy did, and we once again have a BJJ rules, and TMA's suck video when the BJJ guy should have had is ass handed to him EVEN AFTER THE TAKEDOWN!!!.

--

I agree with all of this...but also realize there's plenty to learn about ground fighting!

Peace,
Godzilla

PS. He may not have been able to choke him out because the grappler had his neck protected by his arm pit...karate man couldnt wriggle in and underneath. But if he trained to do this pretty simple technique to grapplers coming in for the takedown he could have relaxed as he hit the ground and attempted the choke...other than that he could have sprawled...but he didnt know to do that either...This forum can make us all better fighters! Let's learn from our mistakes - strikers or grapplers - and embrace our strengths and weaknesses...LEARN and pass the knowledge along!

Great thread! thanks for posting!

SifuAbel

11-08-2002, 10:26 PM

The karate guy's first and most costly mistake was to run in like a girl with that crappy punch that did nothing. No guard, no perimeter, no plan.

AndrewS

11-08-2002, 10:34 PM

The Wing Chun clip is from a Kyuoshinkai tournament in the '70s. It was marketed as 'Fighting Black Kings', and is still floating around on video. The Wing Chun guys are a joke. I was watching this with one of my juniors who was eagerly awaiting the sight of some Wing Chun, and warned him that he'd know just what to expect after seeing them do their 'roadwork'. He didn't understand until he saw. These guys were so bad their *jogging* sucked. Horrible athletes with pretty bad wing chun.

Later,

Andrew

MonkeySlap Too

11-08-2002, 11:10 PM

I have a copy of 'Fighting Black Kings', it was f@cking insulting to CMA. After seeing it, I was surprised that Wang Shu Chin or someone didn't get ****ed off and go set things straight.

Not a good example even of bad CMA.

Those guys looked too ridiculous to beleive. I've seen McDojo's that were better.

Royal Dragon

11-09-2002, 09:45 AM

wtinfo siad
"I" would have ... "

Then why don't you do it? I agree I don't like the BJJ is everything fanbois they are just as ignorant saying I would have ... dossent amount to anything either though if you aren't going to do it.

Maybe a he should have ... would be better.

Reply]
Yes, I see your point. However, I'm almost 35 years old with injuries. It's oing to be quite a wile before I will be ready to fight let alone win. In the mean time, I analyse as much as I can so I'm ready, when I'm ready.

Archangel,
I think he could have sunk it in better. Maybe it's because I am rather adept at that type of technique, but I doubt I wold have let his throat go, unless choking was banned or something.

Felipe Bido said

" Grabbing the throat alone (without following up with something else) won't stop a guy on his tracks. His natural reaction would be of grabbing the arm, move the head away from the throat grab, or apply a jointlock. "

Reply]
I dissagree. If yo bury the grab deep, you can choke a guy out just like a standard choke, you just have to hang on long enough. Also, if he goes for your arm, he then must let go of whatever else he's doing, and that can open up an escape for you.

KC Elbows

Reply]
LOL!!!!

Felipe Bido Siad
"Just an interesting note:

When the Karate guy grabbed the face of the BJJ guy (first he grabs his neck, then he looks for the eyes) The guys say "No se vale!" "A los ojos no se vale!" (It's not allowed! to the eyes is not allowed!"). The karate guy had a decent position (Not the best one).

If they would have allowed eye gouges, do you think the outcome of the fight would have been another? Just curious"

Reply]
Did he say that to the Choke too?? I saw him "Tried" for the eyes, but if was a failed attempt, rules or not. I think if he had hung on th the throat when he was there, he could have turned it with some effort.

He really lost it by the open as he just let the Bjj guy charge in and pick him up. Almost like he asked for it (Similar to a little kid useing body language to be picked up by mommy or daddy).

ewallace Said
"Of course it's all speculation at this point but no I don't think the outcome would have been any different.

Remember folks, we are seeing everything from a much different angle than they are."

Reply]
True, he was probaly "Decentered" quite a bit with the initial takedown.

Seven Star said
"two of the mistakes you mentioned are two he may not have made if he had some grappling experience. The third, archangel already addressed."

Reply]
Yes, I agree, especially right at the take down. Bjj is a growing force, and the probability of facing it is getting higher and higher as time goes on. If your not actually learning it, then you should still be learning it to figure out how to use your system to defete against it. No doubt, in today's world Bjj(Ground Grappeling) style fighting is a MUST for everyone.

Monkey Slap Said

" Too Eh, my sparring experience has shown me that I can usually control a fight from the stand-up. But, occasionally you WILL go down, and all the theories are nice about what happens and what you can do, but these guys are fighting there all the time and have evolved their art. Remember the old Chinese maxim "Without knowledge you are useless, without skill you are helpless." Well, without understanding and fighting these guys, TMA people become both useless and helpless.

Reply]
I have to agree. Your style, or system is just a codified method to train a fighter. Once you learn to appliy all the techniques in your forms, and have mastered all the principlas, it's time to star adjusting to the surrounding and opponents. Right now, BJJ type fighters are a major force (and growing), we need to learn how to deal with them Even if that means learning thier game in addition to ours.

>>And because the MMA types fight, they learn. The tricks I used first at the stand-up don't work anymore on the guys I fight regularly - I'm forced to keep evolving - and so do they.

But 'they's' mighty good on the ground, I take no shame in admitting the modern mma type does have a thing or two to teach the rest of us. (I just wish it didn't make me puke after too much groundfighting. I F@$#$%#! hate getting older.)

Reply]
LOL at the getting older!!! Yes, we have alot to learn from them. I still think we can use our own game to beat them, but it's not going to be easy unless we can cross train with them so we get a realistic idea of what thye are doing.

>>Personally, I think CMA is poisoned by the cult of the teacher. Your teachers are not supermen, and we would be all much better if we realized that. You should respect your teacher, but take him off the pedestal so he can risk himself without losing face.

Reply]
Yes, I agree completely. Pick your favorite style, but once your good at it, don't be afraid to learn from others.

>>I mean, WTF, the JKD types let Danny Inosanto explore and try knew things. He's not afraid to get the crap beaten out of himself when learning new things. Why do we in the CMA world get so hung up?

Reply]
They "Let him??" Is he an indentured servant or something??

SifuAbel Said
"The karate guy's first and most costly mistake was to run in like a girl with that crappy punch that did nothing. No guard, no perimeter, no plan."

Reply]
Yeah, that's what I was talking about. To be honest with you, I didn't really notice a punch at the get go, I saw the Bjj guy charge in, and the Karate guy sort of look down not knowing what to do, and then getting slamed.

AndrewS
Reply]
Their *Jogging* Sucked?? That's BAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaddddddddd!!

SevenStar

11-09-2002, 10:27 AM

he didn't let the choke go - the bjj guy moved his arm and took it straight into the submission. the choke he did was wrong. Anyone that had done that would've gotten armbarred. in the ground game, you want to give your opponent zero space to work with - you smother them. by not being tight and doing things like extending your arms, you leave yourself vulnerable. The grappler's body is way stronger than the karate guy's one arm, so there's no possible way he coulda held that choke.

old jong

11-09-2002, 10:28 AM

Karate vs BJJ
I wonder in what year this thing was filmed?...It looks like the karate guy has never heard about or seen grappling before.Or maybe he was thinking about his grocery list during the fight?...
Wing Chun? vs Kyokushin
Well all I can say is; most of my students are doing a lot better than this after two weeks of lessons!...I smell B.S.
:rolleyes:

SifuAbel

11-10-2002, 12:55 PM

"I smell B.S. "

Being that it came from a cow's butt, you would be assuming correctly. ;)

Its amazing to see what people pull out of the air and call it common.

LEGEND

11-10-2002, 10:18 PM

WOW...I didn't really like the BJJ guys take down! It seemed like he had difficulty. Once it hit the ground the karate guy was totally out of his element. The karate guy was straight traditional. Hell if he had fought a FOOTBALL PLAYER prob. same result. He prob. never even read or seen BJJ in action before.

Nichiren

11-11-2002, 01:16 AM

LOL, come on guys!!!

The comment "crush his adamsapple" shows that someone knows zip about grappling. It is a no-no to extend the arms when underneath. You will be trapped by an armlock every time against a decent bjj guy. And thats exactly what happened.

The shotokan guy was toast the second the fight hit the ground with his limited grappling skills. But he looked sharp and I think if he had used his weight a little better he would have won.

/Cheers

SifuAbel

11-11-2002, 02:38 AM

"But he looked sharp and I think if he had used his weight a little better he would have won"

Uh...... no. He was pure garbage. He ran in like a little girl and threw a nothing punch to the air. He was caught instanly due to his total lack planning. Got in a couple of hits here and there while on his way down and thats it.

He lost the fight the minute he got up that the morning.

GreyFox81

11-11-2002, 04:43 AM

ok i have never fought a bjj person but people have attempted to take me to the ground by tackling me and it doesn't work out in thier favor i either attack while they carge with fist to face, elbow to face, or knee to face or just dodge and attack this dude had chances when he first was on the ground with the guy i would have elbow striked him to the back of the head or something oh well

Nichiren

11-11-2002, 04:46 AM

SifuAbel: Ok, ok....

I really don't know how good he is. Maybe he never should have gotten up that morning but hes got good size.

Maybe if he would have used his ki to root himself to the floor the bjj guy would never have toppled him over.... :D

/Cheers

LEGEND

11-11-2002, 06:20 AM

GREYFOX...I have been elbowed several times in the top of my head LOL. Doesn't do much when u're on your BACK. U don't have descent leverage or power to cause major damage when u're not STANDING. Besides there are numerous tapes where the standup guy tries to elbow from the top and does NO DAMAGE...it's really a joke to us and we prefer u guys to waste your time throwing strikes on the GROUND...while we reposition ourselves in a more dominant position( MOUNT ) for an exchange. Then u're TOAST. The key for any STRIKER is to learn how to STOP TAKEDOWNS...

SevenStar

11-11-2002, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by GreyFox81
ok i have never fought a bjj person but people have attempted to take me to the ground by tackling me and it doesn't work out in thier favor

that's the problem right there. There's an art to a takedown. Try it with a grappler. That's like a grappler saying "I've never fought a striker, but the non strikers who have attempted to punch me have been weak"

Merryprankster

11-11-2002, 11:09 AM

Whoever said the Karate guy was in a great position for a choke after the takedown doesn't understand what he's looking at.

SevenStar

11-11-2002, 11:29 AM

I think he was just looking at the fact that the guy had his hand on the bjj guys throat. He wasn't thinking about the extended arm being available to armbar at will.

BAI HE

11-11-2002, 11:47 AM

"I have a copy of 'Fighting Black Kings', it was f@cking insulting to CMA. After seeing it, I was surprised that Wang Shu Chin or someone didn't get ****ed off and go set things straight."

Would you have wanted to be the one to show Wang that tape?

Besides, Wang took a free shot from John Bluming, Kyoshinkai's
top guy besides Mas Oyama, and all he did was hurt himself.

Later on Wang gave Bluming a "one-inch" punch that
hurt him pretty good as well.

According to Robert Smith anyway.

SifuAbel

11-11-2002, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by Nichiren
SifuAbel: Ok, ok....

I really don't know how good he is. Maybe he never should have gotten up that morning but hes got good size.

Maybe if he would have used his ki to root himself to the floor the bjj guy would never have toppled him over.... :D

/Cheers

Very funny, the guy didn't have root , chi or otherwise.

Frankly, I think some of you guys need to adjust your monitors. There was no size difference to speak of. The karate guy was going for the usual "i can take a hit" approach and ran in. He didn't have any clue after he got his leg caught. He tried to eye gouge while the guy was sitting upright, very stupid.

"I really don't know how good he is. "

I do, he wasn't. He had no planning in this. He had no gaurd, didn't even attempt to maintain his distance, it looked like he was strictly a point fighter before this.

Also, we should remeber that this handfull of clips were put out from private video collections that people digitized in order to show how one style beats on another. Of course they are going to choose the ones that favor them. The gracies aren't going to put out a "Our greatsest loses" video any time soon. And you won't see a " Muay tai gets crushed" video either. Its very easy to put out a video that compliments you and SAY that its absolute.

LEGEND

11-11-2002, 03:38 PM

SIFU ABEL...
for the GRACE GREATEST LOST videos...
Please look at SAKURABA highlights.

SifuAbel

11-11-2002, 04:02 PM

Did the gracies make the video?

LEGEND

11-11-2002, 04:13 PM

NOPE...but a PROWRESTLER did it! I'm still amazed by that nerdy smoking/drinking japanese wrestler who single handedly took on and beat almost all the GRACIEs...with the exception of RICKSON who seems to AVOID fighting him.

WinterPalm

11-11-2002, 07:06 PM

It looked, to me, like the karate man rushed in with his left hand extended with the right hand was chambered just as the bjj guy tackled him. I sense the man did very little actual sparring and mainly worked on techniques, forms and step sparring.
However, it looks as though the bjj had his guard down and if the karate man knew what he was doing he would have mashed the guys face.
Again I stress the need for the legs to be trained. THis aspect is so neglected by most martial artists that it disgusts me. :mad:

SevenStar

11-11-2002, 07:34 PM

strong legs alone would not have stopped that takedown, root or not.

SifuAbel

11-11-2002, 08:04 PM

" However, it looks as though the bjj had his guard down and if the karate man knew what he was doing he would have mashed the guys face."

This for sure, and this is a good point. Would the BJJ do well if he was being outclasses in the striking dept? I think not. I think he would have a heck of a time surviving without good striking skills.

TaoBoy

11-11-2002, 10:01 PM

What if this, what if that...blah blah blah.

Being on the wrong side of the mount ain't a good place to be. Period!

Asia

11-11-2002, 10:09 PM

Being on the wrong side of the mount ain't a good place to be. Period!

LOL so very true!!!

for the GRACE GREATEST LOST videos...

SSSHH Don't say that!!! Don't say the S word!!!!

SevenStar

11-11-2002, 10:13 PM

Originally posted by SifuAbel

Would the BJJ do well if he was being outclasses in the striking dept? I think not. I think he would have a heck of a time surviving without good striking skills.

Depends on how good his timing and takedowns are.

SifuAbel

11-12-2002, 12:56 AM

SS,

That is a non-ssue. Good striking ability includes good timing and footwork as well. Its not just the act of hitting.

TB,
Its hard to do anything when your bell is being rung like its 12 o'clock in london. Most people know better than to say one or the other is "going" to take advantage. The advantage goes to the guy with the better game, period. You can't mount what you can't catch. And if you need an example of this there are plenty of fights in UFC that didn't end on the ground.

legend,

I'm sure you got my point. I know the gracies have lost to people. The point is the gracies aren't going to bundle those fights and use it in their sales pitch.

Nichiren

11-12-2002, 01:25 AM

I'm just curious about one thing. Is the shotokan karate guy a valid black belt??? Does he got the black belt under a legit organization???

I have sparred shotokan guys and to say that a shotokan black belt don't know how to punch is ridicoulus. Of course he knows how to throw a puch, of course hes got timming, of course hes tuff... I'm actually pretty certain that the average shotokan outclasses the average KF guy. Lots of qulity in that training.

/Cheers

SifuAbel

11-12-2002, 01:49 AM

yeah, right. Not this KF guy.

jungle-mania

11-12-2002, 06:17 AM

I have sparred and won over shotokan black belts before and I am from sanshou, don't see how CMA can't stop karate, visa versa.

jungle-mania

11-12-2002, 06:53 AM

I do recall once that a science article indicated that man was never design for fighting and based on our body structure, we are more of hunter/gatherer that probably climb trees to get food. Wouldn't that mean grappling would be more ergonomic to our body type, since the way the muscles are worked are the same in both cases. (Gymnast the next best martial art? kidding):D

jungle-mania

11-12-2002, 06:53 AM

Felipe Bido

11-12-2002, 07:47 AM

Watch yo mouth call Gymkata lame

:mad:

:D

Water Dragon

11-12-2002, 08:05 AM

Joyce would choke Gymkata

Phrost

11-19-2005, 05:32 AM

Actually, if we find a BJJ/etc McDojo we'll call a spade a spade, no problem. Just because someone "teaches" BJJ, that doesn't mean they're exempt from scrutiny.

Three years ago I made this post. And I've kept my promise.

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=29071

This is on the front page of Bullshido right now, and we're actively working on it. Just wanted to bump this old thread because I made a commitment, and followed through on it.

Ultimatewingchun

11-19-2005, 09:14 AM

Haven't read through this whole thread, so what I'm about to say might have been covered already, but here goes:

Regardless of what what art(s) you study, I think your school qualifies as a "McDojo" if you're being told (sold) that what you're learning will make you streetfight ready...

when in fact there's NO hard contact sparring going on, NO working against other standup style's moves that are quality, (ie.-boxing), NO work against quality takedowns and quality ground-grappling, (and the use thereof), NO work against headlocks, bear hugs, full nelson's, grab, push, and punch streetfighter tactics, etc. (all being done with real intensity)...and NO work against realistic knife/stick/multiple opponent attacks.

Merryprankster

11-19-2005, 09:15 AM

Phrost,

I agree that this was bound to happen. However, a difference between BJJ and many of the "traditional" arts (whatever that really means), is that in BJJ there are two largely agreed upon sportive formats where BJJer's can test their skills against others. One is sport grappling. The other is MMA. Both of these are integral to the BJJ culture.

BJJ is going to go the way of Judo, Boxing, Wrestling, etc. There are going to be crap places not worth the dime or the time. There are going to be decent, neighborhood, "hobbyist" places catering to the guy who just wants to learn a little stuff and have a little fun and maybe even get a little good. There's going to be the best of the regional schools. Then, there are going to be those places that churn out top level competition.

Why is this important? Because if you want to, you will always be able to find those great places. You will always be able to take your training to the next level if you want to. Judo, wrestling and boxing - you can name where and who you need to go to to get good at them. BJJ is following that route - and there is nothing wrong with that division. It will help the sport and art grow. Exposure = volume, volume = larger talent pool and more minds working on the same "problem," and that ultimately leads to better BJJ over all.

Not every Black Belt in BJJ in Brazil is a world beater. There are black belts, and then there are black belts - and that's always been that way.

Contrast this model with many of the "traditional" arts. There is no agreed upon venue for testing skill, and in many cases sportive combat is looked down on. This leads to a lack of standards. And many arts - as so often mentioned on here - have a "closed door" system limiting the number of people and minds working on the "problem." Anybody can claim anything and it's hard to check - and if you are checking, then what are you checking against?

In sportive arts, by contrast, you can poke around the community fairly easily thanks to the large number of competitions and learn a lot about who is good and who produces good competitors based on a fairly common set of standards. Ie, how do we know Cael Sanderson is good - oh, he was undefeated in NCAA wrestling. How do we know Rhadi Ferguson is good - oh, he was at the Olympics for Judo. How do we know Coach Ross has a good San da program - oh, he keeps producing top competitors, etc.