Gaun sao - Cultivating hand

[Neo]

I've noticed, having read Rene Ritchie's "Complete Wing Chun" book, that a number of the systems refer to gaun sao as "cultivating hand", although I have learnt it to mean splitting arm. Could some please explain the reasoning behind the word "cultivating" please?

as always, many thanks

[anerlich]

Rene's the guy to ask, but I always assumed it was because the movement of the arm resembles the movement of a scythe blade.

[Mr Punch]

That's what I understand too.

I have had it explained as a 'plough' movement too though this didn't make as much sense to me.

The ging is quite different to many other moves; more cutting than penetrating or more sweeping than sticky, if you prefer.

IMO, of course.

[S.Teebas]

The ging is quite different to many other moves; more cutting than penetrating or more sweeping than sticky, if you prefer.

I dont understand this?? Care to elobrate on what u actually do differently to generate this different 'ging'?

And why dont you want this movment to be penetrating? as soon as i disperce the force of my opponent enough that im not effected; i want to petetrate his structure and shake his foundations so he cant generate any more force. Why is it different? ..plz explain.

[Mr Punch]

The key word here is 'more'. I didn't say not to penetrate.

The most effective way I've been taught the low gaun is with a scything feeling as the name suggests. Have you ever used a scythe/sickle? If so, you'll know exactly what I mean; if not please ask again, and I'll try and be more helpful when I can!

The way I've been shown the high gaun has a more standard penetrative energy, like say, the pak.

edit: BTW, I can think of at least three different low gauns that I use regularly.

[kungfu cowboy]

Maybe the cultivation idea stems from a poetic interpretation of cultivation as ploughing a garden. Like you would use the kind of steely determination or intent whatever as one would have had to do with a plough back in the days before John Deere, when work animals were still no bigger than squirrels.

[kj]

Originally posted by Mat
That's what I understand too.

I have had it explained as a 'plough' movement too though this didn't make as much sense to me.

The ging is quite different to many other moves; more cutting than penetrating or more sweeping than sticky, if you prefer.

IMO, of course.

Those with a farming heritage may intuitively know that one function of a cultivator is to literally cut, furrow, or separate the ground, forming a trench or groove.

A cultivator will, to a degree, "penetrate" the earth, but will cut and separate it at the same time. This process of cultivation entails both downward and forward components. The metaphor is appropriate in form, motion, function, and result, with the centered-down-and-forward cleaving type of gan sau.

There is different interpretation of the gan sau movement, inclined to a more lateral and sweeping type of motion, for which similarities to a cultivator are less obvious. This may be the more well-known interpretation of gan sau.

Just some thoughts from a old farm-gal.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[kj]

Originally posted by kungfu cowboy
Maybe the cultivation idea stems from a poetic interpretation of cultivation as ploughing a garden. Like you would use the kind of steely determination or intent whatever as one would have had to do with a plough back in the days before John Deere, when work animals were still no bigger than squirrels.

I think you've got the idea. Even so, cleaving linear miles of soil, under a roasting sun, and without the aid of anything more than a small mechanical contraption demands energy conservation and solid determination. Not to mention tolerating those nippy little farm critters, LOL.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Mr Punch]

Done that! That's why I don't understand the energy reference of ploughing, which is a steady push/pull, overcommitted if applied to wingchun!

OK, I concede the conservation of energy and letting the tool do the work ideas, but otherwise it's not a good analogy.

Also, using an analogy related to the work of cultivation doesn't fit as well as one using the tool idea.

Just me.

[kj]

Originally posted by Mat
Done that! That's why I don't understand the energy reference of ploughing, which is a steady push/pull, overcommitted if applied to wingchun!

There are different types of plows, and plowing for different purposes. The kind I attempt to describe, e.g., for the preparation of seed furrows, is generally not concerned about pushing/pulling. In Wing Chun as well as the farming type, economy of motion, energy conservation, intentional follow-through, and an avoidance of over-commitment are essential.

A different idea of cultivation of plowing won't suit equally well. If a particular idea (e.g., of cultivation) is not helping, it's not worth getting bogged down over it, IMHO.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[kungfu cowboy]

Caution is advised: This very topic sent the cavemen into the realms of madness during the very late early middle ages.

[yuanfen]

I dont use the "cultivating" hand term...assuming that we
are talking about the same thing---gaun-gaan.
A sweeping cutting label asa general label is good enough for me.
The actual motion is more important than the label that is put on it
and of course hands on correction is one of the better ways to learn it.
We distinguish between an outward motion gaan (hoi gaan sau)
and an inward motion (ngoi gaan sau). You can do some very good things with them specially when you combine gaan with something else with the other hand such as jaam. Many permutations and combinations with gaan.

[reneritchie]

Gaun (Geng in PinYin) is a character composed of Lei (a plow) and Jing (a divided field) to give the sense of plowing, cultivating, tilling, etc. a field. We actually had a discussion on the WCML a few months back about this, with several people with different farming experiences contributing, but in the end, while I personally don't feel the choice of term was haphazard (there are lots of ways to say "cut" or related terms in Cantonese: Jaam, Chit, etc. but it was this one chosen for this hand), I don't think any anology or poetic reference holds up if taken too far.

We chose "cultivate" for Complete Wing Chun because we had to choose one term and that seemed to have the layers and richness typical in Chinese characters.

Rgds,

RR

[kungfu cowboy]

Aren't there any explicit meanings in wing chun?:(

[yuanfen]

Explicit meanings in wing chun? Sure -depends on who you ask
and the context in which the meaning exists.. A real problem is that we are havinga net conversation- hopefully widespread interactive visual/video coversations will supplant our present limitations.
Words can have multiple layers of meanings- specially to native speakers.I depend on speakers whose language is primarily Cantonese for some insights. But for wing chun depth -the understanding of the feel of the motion and conveying it is the important thing. Thats why IMO its more important to pay close attention in detail to the actual teaching by masters of the art .
They work on capturing the correct motions rather than only literary meanings. Language helps with verbal communication but the guidance of the hand is the key and there can be translations and translations which may or may not capture the exact motion. Ploughing also can be seen as a form of cutting the earth. No problem with me if someone wants to use the English word as cultivating. Cultivating a garden for instance
can give a different image from cutting or ploughing the earth.
And if people dont depend on the character for plough- a subtle shift to a shovelling action can take place. And the word may not give a sense of the direction and the kind of energy in the motion.I enjoy using the Cantonese terms in wing chun but for meaning I go to the motion and try to explain it ina variety of ways both verbally, in demonstrating and in usage.

[kj]

Originally posted by yuanfen
But for wing chun depth -the understanding of the feel of the motion and conveying it is the important thing. Thats why IMO its more important to pay close attention in detail to the actual teaching by masters of the art .
They work on capturing the correct motions rather than only literary meanings. Language helps with verbal communication but the guidance of the hand is the key ...

Amen, Yuanfen. Your post is on target.
- kj

[reneritchie]

You need both a skilled teacher and a good text, each to check and balance the other. A deep word with no guidence is as problematic as masterful guidence in the wrong direction. In WCK, we're lucky to have some wisdom from the past and experience of the present to help ensure our future.

As with many things, if they're useful to you in your current place along the path, enjoy and prosper. If you're not there yet, or have long since past them by, no need to fret.

RR

[kj]

Originally posted by reneritchie
You need both a skilled teacher and a good text, each to check and balance the other. A deep word with no guidence is as problematic as masterful guidence in the wrong direction. In WCK, we're lucky to have some wisdom from the past and experience of the present to help ensure our future.

As with many things, if they're useful to you in your current place along the path, enjoy and prosper. If you're not there yet, or have long since past them by, no need to fret.

RR

I agree with this too.

For many native Cantonese speakers, the terms seem to serve well enough to initiate the idea of a thing. However, it seems that application, refinement and clarification of the ideas still requires interaction, demonstration and/or touch. For someone like me, the terms tend to clarify and deepen my understanding after obtaining a degree of comprehension through other means - such as observation, dialog, and tactile and kinesthetic senses.

Generally, and not unlike the kuen kuits or proverbs, terms alone appear to be insufficient to ensure complete and accurate comprehension, regardless of native language. For most mere mortals at least.

The language link is both valuable and fun, regardless of chicken or egg first.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[TjD]

when i think of a cultivating gaun sau, i think of the first gaun sau in the wooden dummy form (at least in the way i've learned it :) )

we do a palm strike with the outside arm, with a tan sau with the inside arm, combined with a step; afterwards we retreat the inside leg backwards (ala chum kiu), rotating the body around with a gaun sau (gaun with arm that was doing tan, tan with arm that was doing palm strike)

this draws the dummy outwards, as it could draw someones kick or strike, causing them to overcommit "cultivating" that energy

i think this is "cultivating" your opponents energy for your own use, drawing them somewhere with your gaun sau, leading them off balance

its my personal opinion that using the gaun sau in this manner is more of a "soft" approach to gaun sau, where as one can also use a gaun sau to cut into someones centerline aggressively, and attack their root, which would a more "hard" use of it

these are just two ends of the spectrum; and in real application sometimes a blend between the hard and soft is the most optimum


travis

[Mr Punch]

Soooorrry!

I was trying to be quick and diplomatic. What I should have said was:

I've done lots of farm work. ...so...

I don't think ploughing is a good analogy for gaun sau.

I think cutting/sweeping is better. Hence thinking tool analogies would be better: as an extension of an arm movement to cause some kind of physical effect, as opposed to an action analogy... pretty pointless when it is difficult enough trying to describe the original action in the first place.

That's why I don't use the ploughing analogy.

In fact, I don't usually use analogies at all: I use actions, and one or two word descriptions in a different language which I don't understand that are sometimes valuable, and sometimes only worth pursuing as a historical exercise, or on a surface level.

Is that better?:D

Now I've just repeated what everyone else has said, and that which I believed in the first place!

Other than that please see Yuanfen's first post on this subject, and my statement that I could think of three low/middle gauns I use regularly (this has since gone up to five, with slightly differnet energies)!;)

So much for diplomacy: STOP ANALOGISING!:p

[Mr Punch]

Nice idea. First time I've heard it. have to give that some 'thought' (practice!).

[TjD]

thats the funny thing about wing chun, there are so many tools, and you can use them in so many different ways

the wooden dummy form is probably my current favorite to practice, because it shows me different uses of the same tools; the "hard", the "soft", and sometimes a blend

chi sau lets me use the appropriate hard or soft or blend ;)


while i've never farmed, perhaps the "cultivating" of an other persons energy is more in line with the farming, because in a sense your drawing something out, helping your opponent along so to speak

however, like i said i know nothing about farming :) what i do know is that i can use gaun sau like this, and its effective and also that when my sifu talks about a cultivating gaun sau, and i do this, he doesnt scowl... however that probably just means im improving, rather than i've gotten it right

[Neo]

I posted this on Saturday I think and its great to come on to my PC on a Monday morning and see so many informative replies - A big thanks to all that posted - I have to agree, Im not usually one to get too involved with the history and language, but as kj says, it can be enjoyable to digger a bit deeper especially when sometimes the waters arent clear.

Now, moving on to lan sau....

[yuanfen]

Neo- your turn--
how does EBMAS understand lan?

[Phil Redmond]

A plow pushes in a forward motion, hench "Plow Hand". Some WC practitioners use a Gan Sao to the side as in a Karate downward block. I think it would be hard to "Plow" a field to the side.

[mun hung]

cantonese

gong means plow.

gong-teen - means farm

gong-teen lo - means farmer