San sik.

[Mr Punch]

We do 18 basic solo drills as part of the warm-up in every class, after various exercises and the forms.

Then we do more and more and more elaborate versions: stepping, changing stance and often with kicks, and of course, hand movements. This often takes up more than half of a two and a half hour class.

I think this is pointless, and san sik should only be given the minimum time spent in class, so the sifu and seniors can check that you have the right energy, rooting, balance, etc, and you can continue in this right way in your own time. It can and should be used to correct students' specific mistakes too, and introduce basic techniques to beginners and lower level students.

How much san sik does anyone do in class?

What do you think?

What is its purpose?

[Mr Punch]

and not one view?

Does nobody know wtf I'm talking about?

Sorry, perhaps I should have given it a catchy title...

Here - I'll rename it:

I'm really excited to be talking about wingchun training

No wait, I need a new name too, something memorable like...

Yellow1Leader.

:rolleyes:

... it's dark in here. And so quiet...

[TjD]

hrm... usually in our classes we get there a few minutes early then warm up on our own

then we chi sau a whole lot :) or do our forms with suggestions from sifu

some classes however, sifu has something special planned for us and occasionally that something is drills

sifu doesnt encourage doing things you can practice at home at the school - makes no sense to me ;)

[anerlich]

I guess there are a few schools of thought on this.

Some might say that class time should be spent imparting information to the students, who should then be expected to do the necessary repetition to ingrain them themselves, and practising drills and aspects of training that are difficult to do alone. To take this to the extreme, you could argue that performing SLT or other forms in class is also a waste of time, people should be doing it on their own.

Others might feel it necessary to enforce repetition in class, as they feel the majority might not do it if they don't crack the whip.

Still others might do lots of basics because they don't know how else to fill up the class time.

Different approaches will suit different teachers and students. You might (or might not) achieve more (or less) with a different approach from your teacher(s).

You could ask your Sifu why he does what he does. He will have a better idea than the great unwashed on an internet forum, which may include people who have only been training with a good teacher for 7-8 months. ;)

I didn't answer earlier because I didn't know what san sik was :eek:

[Tongue_of_Colibob]

We have 16 san sik. My sifu considers them to be many basic movements that are applicable to a fight....they go like this

1. Square Stance straight punch
2. Pivot Tan Da
3. Pivot Pak Da
4. Pivot Gan Da
5. Step Tan, two punches
6. Step Pak Da
7. Step two punches
8. Snap Kick
9. Low Bong, Step press punch
10. Pivot Left, Kwan Sau, Pivot Right Kwan Sau, Center double punch.
11. Pivot Bong Sau, Pivot Tan Da
12 Pivot Gum Sau, step press punch
13. Arrow Punch
14. Sidestep tan, thrust kick
15. Sidestep Gan, diaganol step press punch
16. Low punch (kwai ma)


Those are all the 16 basics my sifu learned in Hawaii under Robert Yeung, though now I believe theyve been changed to 18. Anyways, hope this offers some insight.

Jesse

[Mr Punch]

Jesse, we're now under the same line. My current sifu learned from Robert Yeung and John di Vigilio in Hawaii.

We have some differences which I might post later. But as for the insight: how long do you practise these in class? Do you then practise them as san sau ('paired drills' to those with different terminology)?

Anerlich, I've asked my sifu many times. I will continue to do so, until he gives me a reasonable answer. (psst... I don't think he answers me cos I'm from a different lineage with different but equally as effective ways of doing things :eek:... I'm ever so good in class though, honest :o!) So I'm wondering if my reasons for not liking them were valid (ie, there's no point! Practise them at home, have them corrected at school and move swiftly on to drills where you use partners who you don't have at home!!)... or if there were other reasons anyone could come up with for doing them in class.

And yes, you could argue the same thing about the forms, but I like the forms! No but seriously, the forms contain some things which don't appear immediately applicable, and many more energy variations essential to a basic understanding, so I can see why they are trained in class. Also, it's easier to mess up the forms, plus, if you do mess them up you're not gonna get clocked, cos you don't use them in fighting, as such.

Any more ideas...?

[Nat from UK]

Trained in three different Wing Chun Schools, none of which have had a specific set of movements that you repetitively drill.

I think response drills can some times condition your responses down a defined path, that might not be the logical one.

I am not explaining myself very well, most of the time if we are drilling the attack is of the same style(left jab to head followed by right cross for example) but the response is based on my positioning, attackers weight distribution which may be different every time, etc not a drilled response of X defends against Y, A Defends against B etc.

The closest thing to a drill we do is punching, stepping etc

Nat from UK

[anerlich]

I was trying to say that "not doing any forms in class" was an extreme position. I don't agree with that myself, I think it's important to do forms in class so the instructor can review and correct students' form. I think it's also good for class and school solidarity.

I don't buy the "don't drill techniques because they program your responses the wrong way." Take that a bit further and you're saying the forms are useless, after all at one level they are an extended set of technical drills. And you'd be doing JKD, not Wing Chun. Wing Chun requires forms. Even Gu Lao has its forty points.

Not saying JKD is bad. Just that it's not Wing Chun.

[old jong]

I have no specific drill routine to do at each class. I may have my students do a certain technique or combo in the air prior to practicing it with a partner but,it does'nt take a lot of times.Forms,san sau and chi sau take most of my class time.
;)

[12345]

Half of every class on solo drills sounds excessive. Personally I like chi sao and partner stuff that you can't do at home, OK so maybe not everyone will practice at home, so what, that is their fault why structure the class to suit the lazy uncommitted students? Having said that you need to do solo stuff in class too so you can learn it and so you can check you are doing it right.

[Mr Punch]

Nat. I agree.

12345 and Old Jong. I agree.

Anerlich: I agreed with you the first time and assumed that you weren't championing the abolition of the forms! But I don't agree that if you extend the 'don't drill techniques' you have 'don't do forms'.

If you air-drill techniques briefly, as Old Jong suggested, then go into the two person drill you wind up with what Nat suggested: a basic pattern that can be adapted to suit the energy and body type of the attacker (if necessary, and frequently I find, completely different to the movement you were 'supposed' to be training!).

Many people say the forms are giving you the tool box, so it follows that drills give you practice with the tools... and er, chi sau gives you... the er, sandpaper, for the final finished product... aw ****, I hate analogies!:confused::D

So (of course there's a point :p!), the forms are useful in providing the correct energy and structure, to train your muscle movement patterns into your muscle-memory. The same could be said for sets of punches and maybe simple drills like pak sau, whereas more elaborate repeated sequences could well be training a response memory which presupposes a set attack.

So why do you need to train sets of sequences of movements? There is no valid reason is there?!

Er, I'd better go to bed before I try one of those analogy things again!

[fa_jing]

We practice San Sik at the beginning of every class, after stretching. We've got one long drill called basic blocks and punches, we then repeat throwing a front kick after each technique. Other kicks can be substituted. After this, we might repeat the motions marching up and down the room in bracing step, we do a drill called Wing Chun 5 kicks. We usually practice Huen Ma about 20 reps and some days we drill basic footwork. We practice all the solo punching drills named above as well.
On average, we do solo work for about 20-30 minutes out of a two-hour class. The long first set, which I described in another thread, that's the only one that we are guaranteed to practice at the beginning of each class. I also usually practice this to begin my workout at home. Never get tired of it, it basically runs you through basic techniques with turning and there is always something to improve. It was very important as a learning tool when I began with my current teacher, he would make lots of corrections. Now, he hardly ever corrects us, only something obvious. I continue to gain in my understanding of these movements, especially from the San Sao partner drilling which Mat described. Basically we perform the same movements in the basic set with a partner who punches, breaking it down to 1 or 2 movements at a time. This is done either from the side horse with turning, front-facing horse, or bracing step (angled horse)

I think the solo work is improved by the knowledge and visualization capabilities you gain by working the same movements with a partner. Solo movements are also a good warmup for your body and mind. However, I agree that over an hour of San Sik each class is a bit excessive.

-FJ

[fa_jing]

Here's our basic blocks + punches routine which I had posted in another thread - I'm curious to know where this comes from, if anyone else practices the same drill.


High Pak + Punch, 2 sides
Low Pak + punch, 2 sides
Tan + punch, 2 sides
Gan + punch, 2 sides
Man sao + low wu sao, 2 sides.

Then, we repeat these 10 techniques, followed by a front kick after each simulataneous block + strike.

Now, we pass directly into the double blocks, 10 repititions each:

Tan + Bon
Chom + Gan
Huen + Chom
Grab/pull low to dan tien + punch
Tan + pak

After these are complete, we repeat all the double blocks, 10 times each, each repetition followed by a front kick.

The drill, when complete, totals 60 kicks plus the hands techniques.

[Tongue_of_Colibob]

AH! Mat! Your my kung fu cousin!.....btw, who is your sifu? We should chat sometime!

Anyways, we dont practice the San Sik every class. Often its everyother class, or if there are alot of beginners. They usually take about 15 minutes. When there are alot of beginners, sometimes we practice them as San Sao. Like one person stepping in with a haymaker, and the WC guy doing step Tan, two punches.

Jesse

[old jong]

"Many people say the forms are giving you the tool box, so it follows that drills give you practice with the tools... and er, chi sau gives you... the er, sandpaper, for the final finished product... aw ****, I hate analogies!
Don't forget a coat or two of varnish!...;)