Rant: why do we get all the weirdos?

[NorthernMantis]

It came accross my mind. Why is it that the kung fu community has so many fakes trying to pass as us with these outragous claims?:mad:

Over the past year I've heard everything and I mean EVERYTHING. You got people who claim to to fly from 20 story buildings, swim the ocean with their pectoral muscles, battle entire ideals/presidents with their minds,dismantle nucluear bombs then to gracefully play to the tune of Yankee Doodle on a clarinet that was ingenuously hidden behind toilet all while playing the national anthem with his armpits.

Come on people what's gong on with this world?!

How come you never hear about how a bjj guy grappled a rhino or a vale tudo guy taking down a tank?How about a boxer who can punch at the speed of a rocket?

No wonder some mma don't give us respect. All you have is poeple going around saying all they need is just the eye gouge. kung fu is more than that. Waht ever hoppened to punching a guy in the ribs followed by an elbow to the throat and a knee to the kidneys?? I don't see anything in nhb that they don't do in kung fu, minus the ground fighting. What are your thoughts?

[old jong]

Bah!...the other side (if I can say!)have their little things too...They believe they can magicaly absorb punches. (As seen in the last ufc,a guy named Mir? tried this approach and was almost punched to death.)
One other thing is the lying on the back with legs speaded asking to come in the guard!...Go do that in a street fight!
Of course there is the belief that a 100 pds girl will be able to armbar a 200pds guy!...:rolleyes: I could carry a 100 girl (or guy whatever!),holding like a chihuawa on my ankle,on my arm all day long or use her(or him!) against a wall!..;)
Just trolling a little bit!...(hey ,why not?)
;)

[Shaolindynasty]

Errrrrrr.......Ever notice most if not all the people who make such claims don't actually know Kungfu?

[NorthernMantis]

lol thanks old jong I needed the laugh.
SD-

Yeah I noticed that also. Did you notice that a lot ,not all, are really crappy kenpo stylists?

[Shaolindynasty]

Yeah either Kenpo or in the case of CMQ it was a Korean style I suspect Tang Soo Do. The question I have is why do they imitate Kungfu? Do they feel the art they learned doesn't have any merit?

Oh but with the popularity of instructional videos i have noticed allot of "sifu" poping up and opening schools that way. I heard about a guy opening a school saying he was a student of Pan Qing Fu in Chicago. Turns out he attended a seminar that was given the year before. That with his amazing knowledge gained from books and video he opened his own school.

[SevenStar]

I'll prolly get flamed for this, but ah well, here goes.

I think it happens because there are aspects of the traditional styles that allow for it. when I was in muay thai, and now in judo, and bjj, you use what you know works for you. there is no discussion of chi. no talk of anything mystical. no talk of what masters were able to do. It's just training. then when you compete, you compete how you train. maartial sports gives competitors a venue to fight full contact, using what they know. They don't have to think "I might do this", or "I may react this way" they know because they have to do it in competition.

CMA goes along the same lines - drilling and training, but there are also other aspects such as chi that not everyone understands. there are some pretty outlandish stories of masters who could do amazing feats. Some "Instructors" now capitalize on this by telling unknowing people the amazing things that can be accomplished with kung fu, merely propagating stories, like the flying kick of an 11 story building. People get blinded by this and are like "Wow, he must have been stong" and they in turn propogate the stories to their friends. since the main goal is to not fight, then there is an out for the "instructor" as he doesn't have to prove that he can't do what he claims, as his goal is to not fight, and he has nothing to prove anyway.

It is schools like that that give traditional schools a bad rap, CMA in particular. Then there is the internal training, and the health benefits. Yes, they are very real and internal training is effective in combat, BUT alot of the schools (tai chi really comes to mind) teach only the health aspects and none of the combat, watering down the style and giving birth to the "MA hippies" that we always rant about.

[Braden]

Claiming 500-0 and higher tournament records isn't the same mythology process?

[SevenStar]

another thing is that so little is actually verifiable because there are so many variations of everything. For example, I know that there are at least 3 different versions of the longfist form Gong li chuan, and that one focuses one grappling techs while the other two are primarily striking. with so much variety, it can be hard to see what is actually legit. Someone new to MA definitely will not know, and they end up getting scammed, then getting to instructor level and unknowingly scamming others.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Braden
Claiming 500-0 and higher tournament records isn't the same mythology process?

LOL, yeah, it is, and you hear that in CMA too - all the undefeated challenge matches. I'm not saying there is no mythology in those styles, just not as much, and due to today's venues, it's not as hard to pick out people who can't use their skill. We had a McMMA school here, and he was put out of business. his students competed in local grappling and mma tournies and repeatedly lost. they began to realize that he was not what he said he was, and all his students left.

[DelicateSound]

Because the general publics perception of "Kung Fu" is blindingly misguided.

You say "I do Kung Fu", and besides sounding like Keanu Reeves, they'll instantly ask something stupid like; "Can you do that Bruce Lee punch thing?" or "Is your master a 400 year old Monk?"


Most people are dumb. Fraudsters use this to their own advantage.

[Shaolindynasty]

The schools that don't fight, talk about mystical powers etc. Are useing it as a business tool. For most of the west the TV series Kungfu was their first intro to the art. Easy to manipulate them with their knowledge based on that crap.

[PaulLin]

I would first figure out the motive of any claim(why the statement was made, what is the intension?). Is the person trying to get an important point out or just trying to make himself big. Some thing like kicking off 11 floor or punching a bull, the motive is obviously violated the kungfu moral(WuDe). Many people used to think that WuDe has nothing to do with kungfu, all they need to achieve high level is to learn and drill. However the true factors that made up a high level kungfu should be 1. True source of CMA knowledge. 2. the ability of understanding and logic. 3. years of uninterrupted training. 4. years of experienced of applying.

As you can see, the people who think by lying they can be benefit in any ways, has no correct logic and no understanding of Tao. In this way, they cannot learn correctly, no matter how much time they train, they can't get the proper result. So form the motive of claim, if the motive not met the WuDe, they can't have high level CMA.

[NorthernMantis]

Very well put Paul

[old jong]

Looks like BJJ is attracting some weirdos also!...Well, some other kind of them! (http://www.viragowrestling.com/privateshows.htm) ;)
Only the tip of the iceberg,I tell you!... :rolleyes:
Bah! Just trolling a little bit again! ;)

[SevenStar]

yeah paul, but the above mentioned claims (the ones you pointed out) were not made by CMA - shaolin do is not true CMA and Mas Oyama is Japanese. wu de probably had no meaning to them. Also, the biggest driving factor nowadays behind a lot of schools today is money, which I think is the point. They are propogating these claims to get students, which brings them money, and possibly a big name.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by SevenStar
yeah paul, but the above mentioned claims (the ones you pointed out) were not made by CMA - shaolin do is not true CMA and Mas Oyama is Japanese. wu de probably had no meaning to them. Also, the biggest driving factor nowadays behind a lot of schools today is money, which I think is the point. They are propogating these claims to get students, which brings them money, and possibly a big name.

All high forms of MA has to do with the way of life. Wu De is just the way TCMA called such way that will help wiser development and qi cultivation. Tao is in every thing. Shiao Lin would have the equivalent of WuDe in the Buddha's studies. I believe high Japanese MA have that part too, just that you have to ask Japanese MAritsts to know what they are.

And yet, money is the biggest driving factor today, not just in MA, it is almost in every things. Just take a look at the judges and lawers in the court, they are making a business deal rather than a justified decision. So goes with governments, politicians, and educations. That is the reason I will use MA to promote the benefits beyound the matters. After all, what are you going to do with the material wealth once you get them? Just to use these materials to worn out your qi and thinking you have had a happy life after your qi is gone?

I hope the correct way of knowing what is true gain and what is true lose can be a common knowledge some day, so that the scenario of the hard cash and big name that you are talking about will not be so worse. That is the reason I am pushing TCMA, and the same motive of why I sculpt(my professor in my university is selfish artist, she failed to see why I am doing art. She won't recognize me until so she called I can freely express and explore. It will be very easy for me to let go of my spiritial responsibilities and be as selfish as she wants. But I will fight and stand for who I am no matter if she give me hard time in university).

[TaoBoy]

The basic problem with martial arts these days is the talk.
If everyone just got on with the practice and kept their mouths shut, the MA community would be better for it.

There's far too much of the tired old "my style is better than your style".

Politics has taken over and charlatans have emerged and everything has gone pear-shaped. It's no wonder so many schools decide to remain 'underground' (for want of a better term). That said, true martial artists can still be found - it's just harder.

If only ignoring the fools would make them go away.

Remember "those who know do not speak, those who speak do not know".

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by TaoBoy
The basic problem with martial arts these days is the talk.
If everyone just got on with the practice and kept their mouths shut, the MA community would be better for it.

There's far too much of the tired old "my style is better than your style".

Politics has taken over and charlatans have emerged and everything has gone pear-shaped. It's no wonder so many schools decide to remain 'underground' (for want of a better term). That said, true martial artists can still be found - it's just harder.

If only ignoring the fools would make them go away.

Remember "those who know do not speak, those who speak do not know".

I don't really agree with kept the mouths shut totally policy. Well, my father have that mouth shut policy. However, my policy is to update with today's infromation society and not lost the real practicing and training of the old days.

Now a days, ignoring the fools won't make them go away, in the old days would. Now a days, noly the general public becomes more knowledgible and well educated, then the fools will go away.

If the one that speak do not know, then why is this forum here? Why are you speaking any ways?

[Merryprankster]

The basic problem is nothing at all.

Although, to turn back to the original thread, Seven is ABSOLUTELY correct pretty much in his entirety.

Braden--nobody with half a brain seriously believes the 400-0 claim. Especially since Rickson has a documented loss to Ron Tripp in a Sambo match :) It's enough to say he's very very very good--on another level according to all BJJ champs who've rolled with him--but being great at BJJ doesn't make you super great at Sambo.

[Braden]

MP - Right, so it's the exact same as the CMA stuff Seven mentioned.

[Merryprankster]

Not really. The comparison of a hyped up 400-0 record and the ability to control people's minds or jump off an 11 story building, or body lift somebody with a light touch and have them thrown 8 ft backwards is much ****her fetched.

One is on par with "mother lifts van in surge of adrenaline," Improbable, but NOT impossible, while the others are more on par with "Elvis found on Mars."

It's an issue of scale--so to tie in with the ORIGINAL point of this thread, who's more incredulous--the guy who believes in a 400-0 record (Karelin came really close to this....) or the guy who believes Kung Fu master 'x' had such strong Kung Fu that he could crush skulls with two fingers?

One is clearly more ridiculous than the other--so if you are attracted to KF because of those kinds of stories--well, you're likely to be something of a wierdo :)

[Braden]

Nevermind. That is too serious and no one will listen anyway.

[Serpent]

Yeah. But whatever you say, Kung Fu gets all the weirdos.

[Merryprankster]

Braden--I think we will both agree, however, that nobody worth their salt would believe either a highly improbable 400-0 record or the story of Kung Fu Masters crushing heads with the barest of effort, without some sort of verification.

But, the original question was "why do we get all the wierdos?" Well, it's because you have cooler stories coupled with a sense of mysticism and spiritualism. That's bound to attract more whack jobs than a 400-0 record. Like I pointed out--It's a question of scale of wierdness :)

[TaoBoy]

PaulLin,

My point is there really is no need to talk yourself up.
And as for your question regarding "Why are you speaking any ways?" - I thought that was obvious - I don't know that much! :D

...and finally - I think everyone is pretty accurate in their assessment of the situation.

Cheers.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by TaoBoy
PaulLin,

My point is there really is no need to talk yourself up.
And as for your question regarding "Why are you speaking any ways?" - I thought that was obvious - I don't know that much! :D

...and finally - I think everyone is pretty accurate in their assessment of the situation.

Cheers.

Well, in that case, I don't know that much either:D Talking ones self up is not correct motive any ways. But yet, my father is keep telling me not to wast time typing on net, spend time to train more, as there will never be enough time for training. Then again, the old Meiji vs. Chin Dynasty case is what I am thinking of, I don't want to be the Chin Dynasty. So I want to have the old advantage and fit the modern needs too.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Braden--I think we will both agree, however, that nobody worth their salt would believe either a highly improbable 400-0 record or the story of Kung Fu Masters crushing heads with the barest of effort, without some sort of verification.

But, the original question was "why do we get all the wierdos?" Well, it's because you have cooler stories coupled with a sense of mysticism and spiritualism. That's bound to attract more whack jobs than a 400-0 record. Like I pointed out--It's a question of scale of wierdness :)

Well, if the MMA has as much history and spiritualities as CMA, I am sure MMA would have as much as wierdos as CMA has.

[Merryprankster]

PaulLin--the era of video documentation and the habit of keeping meticulous records of the sportive competitions that drive the development of MMA will ensure that that does not happen. If, 300 years from now, Carlos Newton is claimed to have defeated all comers by double lightning blast, it will be easily shown that he didn't. That's the beauty of records and video, vice oral tradition.

Nice try though.

[Braden]

MP - I'm really trying to avoid this ;P , but I'll say at least: be careful of where you get your understanding of CMA myths. Alot of what you're saying has only ever existed in the minds of people making fun of it. Here are some actual source documents: http://users2.ev1.net/~stma/extra.htm .

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
PaulLin--the era of video documentation and the habit of keeping meticulous records of the sportive competitions that drive the development of MMA will ensure that that does not happen. If, 300 years from now, Carlos Newton is claimed to have defeated all comers by double lightning blast, it will be easily shown that he didn't. That's the beauty of records and video, vice oral tradition.

Nice try though.

Hum....my GM Wong ShuJin has photo documentation of his qi. Where he was taking in punch (he was famous in Japan too). So to prove the CMA legend form the past, one have to recreats it and record it down in digital. Gee, I hope some one would have that kind of kungli.

[SevenStar]

yeah, but chi isn't really the big mystery. There are even people like killidi iyi who claim to be able to see it.... that's where things get clouded - all of the things that can be dont with chi; chi blasts and alot of other things are not documented and never will be.

[Merryprankster]

Braden, I think you're misunderstanding my point. There are some cooler stories in CMA--couple that with an air of mysticism and spiritualism w/regards to how it is approached in the west, and you're going to get wierdos running around. It appeals more to them for some reason. These are the same guys that practice recreated magick rituals and think Lovecraftian monsters are REAL. I mean, do you take the following comment, that I gleaned from a Praying Mantis Website, literally?


Fan Yuk Tung became well known as the result of an incident with a farmer's two bulls. One day as Fan was crossing a field the two bulls charged him. In defence he kicked the first bull and used a palm attack to strike the other bull. Both bulls perished and the farmer became angry.

Now, I'm willing to bet YOU don't--but some people DO!



Why do you think there aren't any wussy whack jobs in "real" kwoons? Cause all you find there is probably hard work. That's more what I'm getting at. The way CMA is approached in the west, coupled with some rather colorful stories that DO exist in CMA mythology, attract some wacky people. Like the guy I was trying to find a CMA school for. He's looking for that spiritual enlightenment, mystical qi glow kind of thing--if he walked into somewhere that actually did hard work he'd declare them to be unenlightened, not what he is looking for, and leave.

PaulLin--Kung Fu legends from the past--exactly! Legends! Meant to demonstrate that somebody was incredibly skilled or powerful--like Hercules or Gilgamesh. But to be taken literally? I don't think so.

In short, there are some colorful stories in CMA. People who train in them seriously, and aren't odd ducks, recognize these as stories. Those who think they're serious are just a little odd, generally.

[old jong]

Merryprankster is absolutely right! All these kung fu fables and legends are bound to attract a certain kind of people. These guys are also very much in danger of being "taught" by some charlatan and it goes round and round!...
BJJ,MMA and the kind are attracting the more competitive and sporting kind of guys.These guys will never believe in some ancient story.Instead,they will say "show me"!...
Anyway,MMA is too young to have a lot of myths and legends and modern facts recording will prevent a lot of this to happen.
I don't know why most styles of kung fu have these pretty legends of people watching animals fight.Why many Japanese martial arts have these stories of a guy falling asleep under a tree to be visited by a spiritual teacher.They all could have said " Hey, that comes from that guy who was teached by that one who learned from that one who was tired of bullies stealing his lunch money!;)

[NorthernMantis]

The truth is that with these stories they are blown way out of proportion but they do have some truth hidden.

Let's say some dude in ancient China was attacked by two unskilled attackers and due to different variables i.e. lack of skill,some guy trips, lucky strike, etc. the guy won. Then everyone starts to talk. Ten years later the story changes. Instead of being two unskilled fighters it was four guys armd with butcher knives. Ten years later instead of being four guys it was ten guys and the hero fought them with a limp leg and one arm tied behind his back and so on.

[Hai_To]

You also have to remember that its not just the "teachers" making up these stories. Oftentimes the students genuinely want to believe that, for example, Fan Yuk Tung killed two bulls. They've grown up watching all of these martial arts movies and want to believe that he/she can develop the death touch or whatever else catches their fancy.

[ewallace]

Just wait. In about 150 years I'm sure Helio Gracie will have tapped out a poison dart frog while it sweat profusely into his mouth.

[GeneChing]

I don't think I agree with the basic premise. Sure KF attracts some odd ducks, but they exist throughout the martial arts. I remember a Karate guy who taught a chimp some kata. There have even been a few thai boxer drag queens. And don't get even get started on the ninja circles. We maybe more sensitive to KF oddities since we are in KF, but they are everywhere.

[Shaolindynasty]

"There have even been a few thai boxer drag queens"

LOL, I just saw an article in the magazine put out by IKF called "Muay Thai" about a Thai Boxing drag queen. It freaked me out, that was a very weird issue of that magazine.

BTW, I saw a MMA tape at suncoast and on the back it says a guy fights a bear. Isn't that considered strange?

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

"I remember a Karate guy who taught a chimp some kata"

i thought that was pretty fu ckin cool personally.

"There have even been a few thai boxer drag queens"

oh man am i embarassed.

[diego]

thai boxer drag queens

These guys must have been so excited when bjj blew up!, I mean standup clinching would prolly get boring bieng males...unless your chubby and eat alot of hormone enhanced chicken:)

[Phrost]

This kind of stuff is the bread and butter over at my site.

Personally, I think at least in the US it goes back to the Kung Fu/Martial Arts flicks we grew up with in the 70's/80's, combined with a limited ammount of public knowledge on the subject, combined with gullible people, with a few money hungry con-artists out to make a quick buck.

Nowadays, there's a huge backlash against this and it's tied itself into MMA, primarily because the results are tangible, the skills, tested and proven, and people don't have to rely on hearsay and anecdotal historical myths.

It's one of the reasons why Bruce Lee wanted to put some distance between himself and traditional forms of Kung Fu that were "stagnant" in his opinion.

People want to be something more than they really are, it's human nature to want to be a hero, or a legend, or even just a plain badass. That's why there so many Mcdojos in the first place, they fill a need to give people an illusion of ability to transcend others while meeting the instant-gratification factor that's also important to people like that.

I would love to be able to shoot energy from my hands Goku Kameamea style, but I live in the real world where things like that just aren't possible.

Sadly though, some people would rather live in a fantasy world so much that they stop paying attention to reality, and start deluding themselves into believing the impossible.

And for these people, there's someone waiting to give them that dream, at a price.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
PaulLin--Kung Fu legends from the past--exactly! Legends! Meant to demonstrate that somebody was incredibly skilled or powerful--like Hercules or Gilgamesh. But to be taken literally? I don't think so.

In short, there are some colorful stories in CMA. People who train in them seriously, and aren't odd ducks, recognize these as stories. Those who think they're serious are just a little odd, generally.

I would agree with you exactly. More over, the stories of the past are supposed to be told to the students and help them to underatand certain training directions or correct responds with certain ways. So if you hear some people who are telling stories of the past master and only try to make the greatness out of that master without another knowledgible points, that is definitly a case of wierdo. It doesn't matter if the story is true or not. Even if the story is true, what is the purpose that you are telling the story while you cann't do it? If your master can do some thing, and you can't, you are not supposed to use your master's credits to glorify yourself.

[Braden]

MP - I didn't misunderstand or even address that point. I simply cautioned you to note where you're gleaning your information about what sorts of things CMA guys do or don't pass around as myth. Eg killing people with lightning bolts from the fingers. Eg what MMA people believe dim mak is.

[NorthernMantis]

"There have even been a few thai boxer drag queens"

Let's see a grappler take on that:D Where's Ralek when you need him.

[Merryprankster]

Braden--fair enough. I made a hyperbolic statement... a dangerous thing on a website! :)

[Braden]

Heh.

Seriously though, it's a real concern. Dimmak is a perfect example... look at all the flak Gary/gazza99 got in for pimping his dimmak stuff, from people who built up their own mythology around the term and ascribed it to him.

[rogue]

Well there is a CMA mythology, look at Kung Fu movies. Personally I don't find them very well done as film and don't see much bearing on actual martial arts. But almost all the CMA guys I know rave about them especially if the hero uses their style. While Crouching Tiger was a wonderful piece of film it really was hogwash in regards to martial arts. I also think that CMA offers more for the imagination; The exotic weapons, the flowing movements and the mystery. Hey that's a lot more interesting than a hardwood floor, some mirrors and a 2X4 with some rope wrapped around it stuck in the ground.

BTW Mas Oyama was Korean.

[Kope]

Every group develops it's own myths, legends, and hagiographies.

The best ones have tangible relationships to historical events - for they ground the community in a common experience.

Most have a "moral" of some type, if you look deep enough. And most communities that pass on these stories tend to intuitively know they moral.

No one lives in the "real" world -- everyone adopts an idealized historical story or two as part of their representation of things.

So, we get stories about guys doing flying side kicks off 15 story buildings. Or we get the tale about the master who kicked through 12 boards with a brush kick .. or whatever.

Some are more unbelievable than others - but they all serve their own purposes within the communities that generated them.

It's nothing new. It's not unique to the chinese martial arts. It's not even unique to the martial arts. Look at the hagiographies of Christian saints, the tale of Buddha, or the story being passed around your local hardware store about some guy named Buck who built is house with a handsaw and a 12-oz hammer in only 3 weeks . . .