"Continuous Sparring"

[fa_jing]

Hi all, I've been asked to participate in a tournament two weeks from now at St. Andrew's here in Chicago. The sparring catagory for black belts is "Continuous sparring," but it's point sparring. A long time ago I used to do point-sparring tournaments, how does this differ? Any advice? (besides making sure the judges are from my kwoon, that's obvious :D)

P.S. Black happens to be the color of the belt that I use to hold up my pants, funny thing, strange way to make divisions. Has anyone else heard of this color-coding scheme? They might as well divide us by our last names, well - I digress. :)

[apoweyn]

as far as i understand, target areas and techniques are the same as in point sparring. but rather than break you up after a successful 'score', they just keep track of it and let you keep going.

means you've got to have a better defense, since it's no longer just a matter of who gets there first.


stuart b.

[MonkeySlap Too]

It's a continuos game of tag, only it has enough rules to insure injuries happen.

Even as a training drill, I don't like it as the rules create too artificial of an environment, and that environment only exists for the game, not to teach something.

Man, I miss the old Bangkok Brawls at St. Andrews! Are things still going on there since Tom Letuli died?

[fa_jing]

I understand that there have been several exhibitions at St. Andrew's, including a Letuli memorial event. I know there is an event there this weekend that is full-contact kickboxing or something. Those events are usually in the Gym, our little tournament will be in another building the "Center."
You can always call our school Kung Fu Academy of Chicago, it's in the yellow pages. Those guys keep up on that stuff, I just hear bits and pieces since I'm studying semi-privately.


Yeah, it should be fun. What I remember from point-sparring tournaments is that it is fun, useless, and you always get hurt. I used to win those thingies so I'll probably go back to some of my old TKD tactics, probably would serve me well considering the rules.

-FJ

[Suntzu]

It's a continuos game of tag, heavy handed tag... but tag none the less... the last Continuous sparring event that i witnessed was quite brutal and bloody for something that was supposed to be considered "light"...

[TaoBoy]

Continous sparring requires better stamina in the participants. I know the tournaments down here also score the fighters on how well they last the bout. If one guy dies towards the end and the other guy is still going, guy #2 gets some points. So, it ain't enough to clock someone a few times early on and then fade away. That said the rules may differ in your part of the world.

Just make sure your fitness is up and you don't fade toward the end. Good luck!

[MonkeySlap Too]

"If one guy dies towards the end and the other guy is still going, guy #2 gets some points. So, it ain't enough to clock someone a few times early on and then fade away."

Reply: Which sums up exactly why I don't like it, it is too far removed from reality. The rules create an 'artificial' contact sport that ceases to develop good habits for fighting, and is almost gaurenteed to produce bad habits.

[rogue]

It's a sport/ non-leatal contest. Who cares if it mirrors reality or not, nothing mirrors reality except reality.

[TaoBoy]

Tournaments are never going to mirror reality. Not even NHB.

I'm not a fan of either point-sparring or continous but each to their own.

That said, I also think they are a good way to play around with other MA students in a controlled environment.

[bong]

Reply: Which sums up exactly why I don't like it, it is too far removed from reality. The rules create an 'artificial' contact sport that ceases to develop good habits for fighting, and is almost gaurenteed to produce bad habits. [/B][/QUOTE]

Sounds like a Boxer would kick some butt.

Ever spar with a real Boxer?

[Merryprankster]

Continuous sparring sucks horse****.

[rogue]

So does rolling around with sweaty men in your PJs!:p

[MonkeySlap Too]

I'm with MP on this one.

Bong- Boxing is not continuos sparring - boxing ALLOWS for contact. But it is still highly limited in the tools it builds. But because of the allowance for contact, you do not inculcate habits that are as bad as those developed by continuos point sparring.

Um, yeah, I've boxed, and the kwoon I used to own had a pro boxing team working out of it. There plenty of threads about the benefits of boxing training, but this is not one of them. I think you are confused about what continuos sparring is - a boxer would do well UNTIL he got disqualified for excessive contact!

[Royal Dragon]

The belt coloring thing is his attempt to standardise a leveling system because he is an open tournament with schools from all over competing from all styles. It allows him to keep some organasation.

Basically, if your at the intermediate level, you need to wear a purple sash advanced, Black and beginner white yellow etc.

If your school has a different ranking system, then you need to buy the appropriate belt or sash ahead of time.

[Royal Dragon]

How does continous point sparring make bad habits? It's better than stoping after you tap the guy. I mean, in a real fight, I'm not going to stop trying to pummel you just because I get hit. Unless you knock me out. I'm going to keep going.

[MonkeySlap Too]

I am oppossed to ALL point sparring. Point sparring by it's very nature makes the activity non-martial. Sort of an aggressive game of tag. By making it a game of tap-tap - you change the dynamics of the situation - the energy, the distance, the timing to the point where it builds habits that are good for 'point fighting', but are very bad for actual fighting. Froim the Shuai Chiao doctrine, you spending a lot of time and energy in a place where the fight isn't happening.

Since I don't fight 'points', I don't play 'point' fighting.

I suppose it could be used for absolute beginners as a confidence building drill...

[MonkeySlap Too]

RD said: Unless you knock me out. I'm going to keep going.

Reply: Not true. I could throw you - taking away your physicval ability or desire to fight, I can damage your weapons to the point you no longer desire to fight, I can submit you with Qin Na, I could choke you out, etc..etc..

Not all of these are good for free fighting practice. But without power, without throws, without the energy created by allowing more of what you find in a real fight, you create an artificial construct that builds bads habits.

It's not a choice between one-point or continuos point. It's a matter of opening up the rules to allow a more well rounded practice.

Make sense? Realize I am talking from the point of view of my objectives - which is to be able to fight, not compete in point games. The doctrine that evolves from this is built on developing certain skills and attributes. Skills and attributes that are not developed by point sparring - of any kind.

I could be seen as splitting hairs - but to me they are important hairs :p

[fa_jing]

OK, it's "Chicago Kung Fu Championships" sponsored by T.C.M.A.C. I've been to the venue before, it's a little small and there are no bleachers. Action could be alot, or could be a little. I'm going anyway because my Sifu asked me to and my kwoon is a sponsor of the event. "full Cage mask for continuous sparring" That sucks.

About the belt thing, we don't use them so I was just making a joke. You're supposed to have 5 years of experience to fight in the Black Belt division, and it's the only division to offer continuous sparring. If I add all my study together, over the last 15 years, I think I might scrape up against that number. I am not willing to do straight-up point sparring, it's too far from what we do know.

I did some point sparring many years ago, I'd say that point sparring is better than no sparring, albeit not by much. I think that the sparring we did in TKD class would be similar to "continuous sparring, " we pulled our head punches, restricted target area, etc.

Yeah, it's just a sport, and not even the most fun. Example: our last (full-contact) sparring session, I could see (and feel) that it is not good to trade a jab for an overhand right. But in the "points" scenario, these are two equal creatures. Not to mention that I like to kick low. Still, I think I'll do alright based on my previous TKD experience, which followed similar rules. I don't know about this Cage-mask thing, though, doesn't that mess up your peripheral vision?

-FJ

[MonkeySlap Too]

Fa Jing said: I don't know about this Cage-mask thing, though, doesn't that mess up your peripheral vision?


Reply: Some do, I've found it to be tolerable. The cage serves to limit blood splashes and keep down the possiblity of transmitting blood borne pathogens. It limits giving someone an intintial mess-up shot, but hey, it is just sparring.

The mask can be better in competition than boxing head gear because boxing head gear can get pushed across your face by an overhand slap and cover your eyes. The face cage headgear tends to stay on.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too
I am oppossed to ALL point sparring. Point sparring by it's very nature makes the activity non-martial. Sort of an aggressive game of tag. By making it a game of tap-tap - you change the dynamics of the situation - the energy, the distance, the timing to the point where it builds habits that are good for 'point fighting', but are very bad for actual fighting. Froim the Shuai Chiao doctrine, you spending a lot of time and energy in a place where the fight isn't happening.

Since I don't fight 'points', I don't play 'point' fighting.

I suppose it could be used for absolute beginners as a confidence building drill...

yeah, what the ******* said. There are alot of strategies seen and encouraged in point fighting that leave you open to get drilled if it were actual contact. Considering you fight how you train, the same habits will manifest themselves, and guess what? you get drilled. you may also get into the habit of pulling punches, and kicking high frquently, as you get more points for a kick. most tournies give 2 points for a kick, and some give 3 for a head kick.

[Water Dragon]

I'll make 3. My main reason is that point sparring promotes too much of an in-out in-out strategy. My school, at least, emphasises an in-in-in-take-em out strategy.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too

I think you are confused about what continuos sparring is - a boxer would do well UNTIL he got disqualified for excessive contact!

I've had points taken away for excessive contact. out of habit, I threw a right to his face. I caught him square in the nose and buckled his legs. in that same match, I threw kicks that looked like they landed to hard. I got penalized. but when I got hit in the nads by a different guy, they counted it, saying he hit me in the stomach....I hate point fighting

[TaoBoy]

SevenStar wrote:

but when I got hit in the nads by a different guy, they counted it, saying he hit me in the stomach

Just another reason that point fighting sucks. It's all perspective. The judges have to have a clear understanding of all competing styles and then they have to use their eyes.

I've witnessed CMA students fighting against predominantly Karate styles that were judged by Karate instructors. These judges didn't recognise any valid techniques that they didn't understand. So, needless to say when Karate guy threw a reverse punch at CMA guy and CMA guy clocked him on the head with another strike - Karate guy scored. I just shook my head.

[rogue]

Sevenstar, you sound like the perfect pointer. I've seen more knockouts during point sparring than full contact kickboxing matches. This was during the late seventies before everyone started using Jhoon Rhees gear and before every tournie had a lawyer lurking in the stands. Thems was the days!

[SevenStar]

too bad it's not like that now :D

[HongKongPhooey]

I'm with royal dragon on this one

[fa_jing]

Guess what? The rules are going to be completely different than I imagined. They are going to allow low kicks and up to 3 takedowns in the 2 minute time frame. Don't know if you can receive any points for these. "Medium contact," I was told. The action is to take place on a padded surface. Man I am excited! This is going to be my first tournament in a long time. I pity the fool that has to be my first opponent. I know I'm going to get f'd up too, but I'm going to do my best to win this thing.
I'm fighting in the Black belt division. It should be near the end of the tournament, around 3 pm or later. I'm also going to participate in forms.

I just want to flow tomorrow. I've been doing sparring lately so I am prepared.

-FJ

[rogue]

Good luck fa jing, make sure you bring back all the details of the fights. Careful of the moderate contact rule, everybody has a different idea of "moderate". Also do you have to strike the person right after the takedown? Can they strike from the ground?

[fa_jing]

I'm sure there's no groundfighting, I can't imagine. Maybe there is a rulle like the one you're talking about, I'll get the final scoop tomorrow morning, we are meeting early at my kwoon to discuss rules, strategy, equipment, etc. They are permitting chest protectors but I won't be wearing one. It's going to be cage-mask headgear and we apparently can wear MMA gloves that have padding. So grabbing is in. I hear no knees and no elbows, that's too bad 'cause my knees are fierce. I will go hard, but I don't want to hurt anybody (maybe shake 'em up a little) and hopefuly they'll give me the same respect. I'm watching out for my groin because I've been in tournaments before and I know the deal. Accidents and fouls happen. We may be capturing the action on film, BTW, so hopefully you all will at least get to see some pics. I'll work on it.

[Shaolindynasty]

fajing- Who is your sifu? where is your school?

is this a kungfu tournament or an open martial arts tournament?

[Bolt]

Good luck; and yes, give details when done. Remember, the secret is in the calm.

[fa_jing]

Hi SD.

My sifu is Nikita Young Johnson, I study WC and a little JKD. He has been a student of Ted Wong's for about 10 years, has about 26 years in Wing Chun. Our kwoon is Kung Fu Academy of Chicago on North Sheridan (northside near Loyola), it's Master Kwan's kwoon and is primarily 7* praying mantis. The coalition sponsering the event is TCMAC, composed of about 5 different Chicago schools including Choi's. I don't think Ng family arts is included. It is an open tournament, although it's only been publicized in the kung fu schools it says "Welcoming Traditional Karate & Tae Kwon Do stylist, etc." When I was at another tournament as a spectator it was pretty much just kung fu. But if you want to come and participate or spectate that would be great, just let me know.

-FJ

[fa_jing]

Oh yeah the name of the tournament is "Chicago Kung Fu Championships and Master's Exhibition." It's at 1725 N. Addison and lasts from 10:30 to about 5. Children's divisions are usually first.

[crumble]

"There are alot of strategies seen and encouraged in point fighting that leave you open to get drilled if it were actual contact."

And vice versa. Take for example the classic fast jab to beat a hook (straight line to the chin beats an arc to the side of the face). You need your jab to have contact so that it takes the power out of the incomming hook.

In point sparring, at least the first punch would "win" (if the judges saw things correctly). But in continual point sparring both would get a point! :eek: That is completely the wrong feedback for developing fighting skills.

Medium contact might help keep things more honest. At least your attacks will slightly unbalance the opponent, which will give the winner an appropriate advantage on the following moves...

Now just hope those judges have perfect eyes and can keep a level medium contact playing field!

Good luck Fajing!

-crumble

[MonkeySlap Too]

The rules sound a little promising. Fa-Jing, any hope of getting a tape of the fights?

[fa_jing]

There is hope! My sifu's bringing his digital camera, he has to go early but will leave it with someone reliable. Eventually we'll get it to tape. Sifu says he doesn't want me just striking a pose, however!
:D

[Shaolindynasty]

Fajing- I don't think Ng family is involved. I haven't heard anything about this tournament in class. They seem to go to mostly USAWKF stuff. I was mostly just curious, i have allot to do this weekend (training, work etc)

BTW guys, last 'continueous light contact sparring" I saw looked like san shou with no throws. It's hard to determine what level of contact competitiors use in a continuous match. There was a TKO in one of the fights. It was pretty hard contact. The kids were the toughest though.

[fa_jing]

It's actually at St. Andrews Gym, not at the smaller venue. 1658 w. addison. Should be a very good event. I'm going to help judge and stuff. There seem to be several different divisions to participate in. I'm psyched.

[fa_jing]

Hi guys. The results were postive, although I felt could I have done a little better.
It was a small turnout, perhaps because of the weather. But it was an excellent tournament.
Sifu Kwan's school and Bei Mei Shaolin, Sifu Andrew Lee's school were well represented. I took three silvers, one in Southern forms, one in black-belt point sparring, and one in heavyweight continuous sparring. But the #of competitors in each division were small: 5, 4, and 3 respectively. I've seen the videotape, unfortunately the second round of both of my continuous sparring matches is missing, due to the camaraman we entrusted goofing off and screwing up. I was robbed on the forms, I've seen the tape and my performance was nice, my sifu agrees. Oddly, my junior beat me out for the gold, as did this cool young-buck wushu guy who said his introduction in chinese before repeating in english and doing his form. His form was a'iight, he did a much more impressive form in the Northern Kung Fu catagory where he slapped himself about a 100 times all over the place during the form. For black-belt point sparring we had two Karate guys as opponents, from the Shikido school near here. They describe their art as an Okinawan soft style. Their forms were cool and looked a little like Kung Fu. There was a big guy, a little round in the gut who weighed about 235, he had ten years experience, and a shorter guy, pretty fast and strong with 15 years of experience. First my classmate fought the shorter guy, and lost. But he did pretty well. Then I fought the bigger guy, incidentally the center judge (out of three judges) was their sensei or whatever. We were definitely not getting the calls. I went down0-2 against this guy, but it was wrong and I was like "what??" on the second point like a pro basketball player complaining to the ref, but I quickly realized my error and apologized to the center judge. Then I got it together and won three straight points to win the match. Next I faced the shorter guy for 1st place, I quickly hit him with an axe kick to score the first point, then we clashed a few times. I'm not sure why they gave him the first and last points, the second point he got me with a clean body shot and I should have blocked it, I started my block but for some reason didn't follow through and he slipped it by. On the last point he jumped at me with a back fist, I leaned back and side-kicked his mid-section and I felt my foot sink in, but they called the point for him, you can't really tell who hit first from the tape, and my shot was a lot more decisive. When they called the point for him, he leaned forward and said to me "Nice shot." So I have his respect, which is more important. My classmate beat his opponent in the third-place match. Anyway these Karate practicioners are very nice guys, they are cool, and we'll probably meet up again sometime for some friendly action. Their sensei is cool too, although he wasn't too happy about his guys losing to us...next up was the continuous sparring, which took place on a large interlocked rubber mat. Rules were as follows: no points, it was to be decided by a consensus of the judges. 2 one-minute rounds with a minute break. Cage headgear and 14 oz. boxing gloves, I used my 16-ouncers. Try as we might we couldn't use our regular Thai-boxing headgear. Foot protection so you dont catch a toe on the facemask. 3 clean takedowns was supposed to be match over. If you went down too, you didn't get credit. We were allowed to kick the thigh, but not to buckle the leg. Also, you were supposed to not try to hurt the other guy. Sweeps were supposed to be performed with the toes scraping the ground. We were explained all the rules before the matches started. There were seven competitors, which they divided into light, medium, and heavy weight classes. I (180 pounds) was in the heavyweight division with my classmate (230) and the bigger Karate guy. The light-weight match wasn't so exciting, the guys were good but they didn't mix it up much, a lot jumping in and out. The middle-weight match was quite good, between a chinese stylist and the other Karate guy, it went to overtime and the CMA guy won, I thought fairly. But the real action came with the heavyweight division. ;) My classmate was selected to have a bye, so I went up against the Karate guy. In the first round, I dominated the striking, hitting him with about 4 round kicks to the head, one of which really connected and made a loud noise. I also hit him with a couple punching combos. But, my strategy almost back-fired, if you fall three times you lose, he almost took me down once on kick but I fell when we were out of bounds, and a couple times he did succeed in taking me down from the clinch, I wanted so badly to knee him but that was not allowed, we were told it would bring automatic disqualification. Another time we both went down, another time he went down to his knee on a missed takedown. So the round was over, and my classmate played the role of coach since my sifu had already left, he gave me really good advice that turned things around for me. He pointed out that the other guy couldn't handle my strikes, and not to clinch with him. Round 2 I just dominated. My opponent was running out of gas, and I started to get in on him. This time when we clinched, instead of grabbing his arms like I would if trying to knee him, I worked it the way my sifu taught me, like a boxer finding the holes, hitting him with body shots, and up top, lowered my center of gravity and he couldn't get the throw. I also hit him with a really decisive punching combination that rang him hard, the crowd was like oooh... I wasn't sure what the decision was going to be, the judges were discussing for a long time...probably over whether I was down three times. Incidentally, my opponent went down twice too, once on the failed shoot and once when I caught him in a reverse headlock and pulled him down, staying in front of him...still I was confident I'd get the win - I did. Then I had to go against my classmate, my worst nightmare, because he trains the way I do. I was tired to start and he was fresh, and that was probably the difference - he did what he had to do, and came in punching. I put on a good show and got him a few times, the most decisive part was somehow he picked me up and flipped me over, setting me down with control (thank God!), and his punching was superior. We took it a little easy on each other and punched gloves after every break. He fell down once as well. The decision went to him, and he earned it.

[guohuen]

Congradulations on your silvers. Sounds like you had a good time and the tournament was a success.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Cool. Sounds like you had a good time, which is everything.

It's tough when you are run down, and the other guy is fresh!

I always try to tell people that the worst you do in class, is the best you can expect when you are worn out.

I'm surprised more schools don't play in the tournament.

[Water Dragon]

Take downs were legal? You never told me takedowns were legal. I may have to dothis next time. Congrats Bro, sounds like you did excellant!

[fa_jing]

They said it had the lowest turnout out of about 4 tournaments. Good thing we came along to provide entertainment.
'sup Water.
Also, the tournament featured a man with a mullet.

[Water Dragon]

That $ucks. And we were gonna go too; ask Espy. I didn't check my e-mail until 2:00 though, so it would have been 3:30 - 4:00 before we got ready and got there. Espy promised we can go next time though. I know the boy would enjoy it. Especially if he can see Dad do some sigh chow LOL

[SevenStar]

the man with the mullet made it all worthwhile. congrats bud.

[fa_jing]

Yeah, because of the low turnout they moved things along and the last event was over by 2:30. Another KFO guy named Slo Mo apparently stopped by at 3:00, we were already gone. Next time hopefully everyone will be able to participate. The venue is great, it's CMA orientated, yet open to other styles, and there are various catagories like wu shu, etc. And yes, there is continuous sparring with throws! That's enough to be a draw in itself. I'll let you all know when the next tournament is.

[rogue]

Great job fa jing. But where'd you learn to kick the head? Aren't WC fighters supposed to explode or something if they do that?:D

[MonkeySlap Too]

Hey Fa Jing - Could you have your teacher contact MJ? I'd like my school to join the tournament org. We'll bring fighters to the next one. It'll probably a joint team from my club and the mountain.

I'll also call my classmates from the ACSCA to see if they want to play.

Why not? It's not quite San Da, but it'll help the juniors get used to playing.

WD - can supply the contact info if you don't have it.

[Water Dragon]

Let's do that. If the ACSCA gets involved, maybe we could get a Shuai Chiao mini-tourney involved. Or dare I ask, an ACSCA rules tourney!

[fa_jing]

If you guys get enough players, you can even have your own forms division, maybe influence the sparring rules, etc. Yes, let's get it together, I know Sifu Kwan would love to get more schools involved. MS2, if you remember him he has an unbridled enthusiam for the CMA. I'll work it out with WaterDragon. Alright!!!! :)

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by rogue
Great job fa jing. But where'd you learn to kick the head? Aren't WC fighters supposed to explode or something if they do that?:D

Well, I used the high round kick that my teacher taught me. I'm copying this from the WC forum, maybe you guys would like to discuss. Keep in mind this was my first tournament in 12 years:

BTW, about half of what I learned went out the window when I got started. This is partly because I used to do tournament sparring in another style, TKD, about 12 years ago. Mostly, though, due to the excitement of the situation, and falling into the other guy's game.
Anyway, you all know how I train, so I did well. I was definitely more comfortable in the continuous sparring than the other guy. Anyway, I am working on decreasing the amount that goes out the window, because it is my firm belief that only minor modifications need be made to traditional styles to accomodate them to sport fighting. Last time I was sparring my sifu, we were going fairly hard, I stepped in for a side kick and spread my hands, he low bon sao's my kick and hit me with a clean whipping punch from the bon sao that rocked me. Bayyooo! All this with boxing gloves. We've got it on digital tape and one day I'll figure out how to post it. So he has the skill to posterize me, and I want to acquire that skill. It's all coming together gradually, a progression towards unification. The traditional and the sport/modern training methods.

[fa_jing]

Let me also say that I got excited, and it became almost like playing Tekken or Streetfighter where you don't understand all the character's special moves, and you just keep pressing the punch and kick buttons and trying to time your entry. I just tried some things and stuck to what worked, striking rapidly and in combination, forgetting almost entirely about defense. The Karate guy stood right-forward and I left-forward. What worked was high round kicks over his guard and left and right straight punches. My footwork was actually alright. I kept up some front and side kicks with the lead leg and middle-height round kicks with the rear to the body, which he mostly blocked. but it kept him guessing. He stood in a traditional stance, side facing with his rear hand palm up by his solar plexus, so he could usually block a middle round kick but sometimes I could kick over his guard. The kick I was using I devoloped kicking against the Thai pads, it was a semi-pivoted, not full pivoted kick like in TKD, I can't/don't do that one anymore. BTW, I'm not all that limber, I was only able to kick high because I was very warmed up, and my hamstring is a little sore still from that.
Anyway I fought both linearly, and was able to step forward to his inside gate with a triangle step so that I was facing him with his body facing me, which fits into my strategy, but is atypical for some Wing Chun. Some wing chun would always try to step to the outside gate in an opposite stance situation.

[dbulmer]

Fa_jing,
Your sense of fun carries over into your post - congratulations sir!
:)