Another mind-numbing question about Taijichuan.

[I.M. Toast]

Say, at what point does some one know the canon of techniques of TJC? In other words, If I were to dedicate my study to Yang TJC, would I "know" (intelectually speaking, not necessarily having a skill mastery) the techniques of the art. How many form sets are there to memorize?. Does one "know" Yang TJC after the 108 form set and the weapons sets? Or does it have an immense number of strategies and techniques to learn.

Forgive me if I am somehow sounding impatient. I don't think I am. I am just trying to get my little western mind around the art and what sort of expectaions that I should have.

I.M. Toast

[GLW]

Depends on your teacher....however, if you trace your Yang style lineage to Yang Chengfu (not Cheng Manching or others), the system is quite simple:

The barehand form (some count it as 103, 108, but in China, the most common counting is 85 Posture - NOT to be confused with 88 Posture). This is the routine Yang Chengfu created and what most people do.

There are other barehnad sets...but I am speaking in the most general Yang style case.

Then you have the Yang Taijijian - straightsword. This is NOT 32 Posture sword...similar but longer.

Then you have Yang Taijidao - broadsword.

There ARE some spear/staff exercises...but the routine has been lost for the most part.

Then you have push hands and some have a Duei Lin - two person set...but not all.

The barehand from beginning to end to do - 2 to 3 years with no basics...you can learn it faster but doing it OK ...not so fast.

The jian - 1 year or much longer. to do well..take a lifetime...

The dao - 1 year...or 2 - it is simpler than jian.

To do it all well...10 to 20 years... :)

24 is NOT Yang style...it is based upon Yang and is a good starting point to get some foundation...but it is NOT Yang style per se...and you have to keep the differences clear.

[Kumkuat]

Originally posted by I.M. Toast
Does one "know" Yang TJC after the 108 form set and the weapons sets? Or does it have an immense number of strategies and techniques to learn.


No people will ever 'know' yang tjq even after learning 7 billion different forms if they move externally (using 'li' instead of 'qi').

[Repulsive Monkey]

....with Kumkuat. And thats the fact if you haven't got the internal method right then no matter how many forms you leanr they are all just empty shells and will serve you no purpose. In fact you would of wasted all your time and money and next to nothing.
The knowing of Tai8ji forms isn't from the intellect its from the deeper connection to the Qi and its manifestation in the body and the ability to control it with the intent.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

A fair question really. One of the problems with answering it is that Internal martial arts aren't really about techniques. Techniques occur and you can train them, but the point of the forms is to build a good structure and train principles of change within that structure.

When I'm teaching I lke to show possible applications. What often happens is that to show move I ask a student to throw a hook or kick or something. Perhaps I was going to show Horse-Parts-Mane, but as soon as we touch their body reacts and it transforms my response into Jade-Girl, because of what actually happened. Using technique is a bit like coming into battle with a policy. What if your opponent doesn't know the policy?

So what do you do? Train to understand the principles and spend as much time touching and getting tossed around by a more advanced practitioner. You need the structure and principles trained in the form, but you also need the touch to refine the structure and principles. This is why we do push-hands, to deepen our understanding of the principles.

[Nexus]

Kevin,

If you are unable to apply certain movements because your body takes control then this is a product of an innability to control subconscious tendencies. This is like saying that if a child jumped on from behind in a playful manner, your body would undoubtedly do some very violent thing in response. This comes from an individuals lack of self-control, and t'ai chi should actually be developing the ability to take control of those situations and execute appropriately. I agree with upholding principles, but when you are "showing" an application, if your unable to show the application because your body wants to do something else, you have an obvious conflict of body-mind.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Nexus,

I don't agree that I said I had no control. I didn't say "my body reacts" I said theirs did. If I touch someone and I plan to do Horses-Mane no matter what I am leaving no room for listening. I am arguing that the "showing of technique" is not really an honest presentation of Taijiquan. To use your own anology of the child. If a child comes to play fight and I have the plan to touch their nose but they lunge forward, if I continue with my policy they will get smacked in the face. Their actions dictate what the application of energy can be, not mine.

When I say that my response becomes Jade-Girl, I am saying that something about how my partner is moving makes trying to continue with Horses-Mane arbitrary and insensitive to actual nature of the forces involved. Sure its great to to get the perfect energy to illustrate a possible usage, however I find it takes some time for people to understand how not to contend every time they touch.

No offence, but I'd prefer that you actually read the post before you start telling me how my mind works.

[Nexus]

I don't have to tell you how your mind works, you just told me.

[Confucius]

I.M. toast i hope this helps..

in taijijuan a masters level of skill is judged by the amount of energy training he has endured..which is to say the higher level forms he practices the better his understanding is of internal energy..now some masters practice advanced forms but gain none of the benefits of those forms or they only gain some and not all etc

a true taijijuan master must have mastered the external along with the internal

and should be able to apply internal energy to combat situations and to gain 'extraordinary' health benefits

their understanding of forms and there application is on the same level of their understanding of internal energy because they go hand in hand

of course that is in the physical sense, other things come into play for the advanced practitioner such as spiritual cultivation..or it can begin in the begining..hope that doesnt confuse you

but the point is toast, is that if you want to understand the art then understand this

if you after many years(or months) of training havent felt a change of your physical self, or havent strengthened you qi then you are practiceing incorrectly

if you cant apply your forms/patterns etc in combat effectively you are practiceing incorrectly

and if you are physically or emotionally or mentally unstable after practiceing for some time, you are practiceing incorrectly

now some people do just practice for the health benefits or the emotional benefits etc but if you havent gained any of the above then you need to advise a master and change what you are doing

that is the art of taijijuan and if practices correctly you can gain all of these benefits at once with practice and dedication