ng lun choy , ng lun kuen , che kuen from choy lay fut system

[RAIN]

please correct me if i am wrong

one of the basics forms in most linajes of choy lay fut is ng lum choy , but in the LKH linaje that form is called che kuen
and ng lun kuen is a conditioning exercice .

why the form have that name ? why 5 wheel fists ?

also ;

i'd see the che kuen version of the lkh book and the other one .
both are similar but differents , i know that the one from the book , was teaching only in the honk kong university . but the two forms are very good basic forms , my question is if inside the LKH linaje you call both forms che kuen or one of them have another name ?

[extrajoseph]

The Chinese names are Ng Lun Ma and Ng Lun Chiu, Five-Wheel Stance and Five-Wheel Fists.

Ng Lun or Five-Wheel can refer to the Five Vehicles of Attainment in Buddhism and to the 5 directions of moving forward, backward, to the left, to the right and stay in the centre.

It can also refers to the 5 basic ma bo that made up the CLF footwork: sai ping ma, ji ng ma, lok gui ma, nol ma and dil ma.

[CLFNole]

Rain the forms have two names:

Ng Lun Ma = Lie Ma
Ng Lun Choy = Che Kuen

The ng lun kuen you refer to is a two man drill that defends and counters five different attacks.

Peace.

[extrajoseph]

Lie Ma (or Lian Ma) and Che Kuen (or Jar Kuen) literally means (how to) train the horse and hold the fist.

[CLFNole]

Sisuk Joseph:

Have you ever heard of these forms referred in the way I spoke of. I recently saw a video of Chan Yong Fa's Ng Lun Ma and it is very close to the one that I know. I also recently looked at a book by Poon Fun who I believe was a student of Chan Yiu Chi and his is also similar to mine yet a bit different from Chan Yong Fa's. I noticed in Poon Fun's there are less gong ma's (bow stance), I had heard that the more original CLF had less gong ma's in favor of sei ping ma's not sure about this maybe you would know.

Hope your trip to China went well.

Peace.

[extrajoseph]

My business trip to China went well and it is good to be back in Spring with Summer coming.

In Ng Lun Ma, it is important to work with Da Pok and Sie Pok (turning the waist and shoulder) to generate power with the whole body. If you look at the stance when we do Da Pok and Sie Pok it goes from Sei Ping Ma to Ji Ng Ma (or Gong Ma in your term) and back again.

Poon Fun's book only shows drawings copied from photos in static postures, it is unfair to compare them with a video.

I doubt that you can have less Gong Ma if you want to turn your waist and shoulder quickly and powerfully withour shifting your weight and turn your body. Sei Ping Ma (Sei Ping means levelled and front on) means the weight is equally distributed in both legs and that is not possible if you want to generate power with speed in either directions. If you want to throw a long punch, it will go from Sai Ping Ma to Ji Ng Ma to Ding Ji Ma (strightened back leg) even, otherwise it will be difficult to reach your target.

I have not seen a video of Chan Yong Fa's Ng Lun Ma so I can not comment. In general I don't have a problem with minor differences in the sequence, or the pace or with stylistic difference in the way we do a form. What is important is that we have power, speed and agility. In a fight, it will hard to beat a clever move that has power with speed and accuracy.

[CLFNole]

Sisuk Joseph:

I learned with the emphasis on the shoulder and waist turns as you termed da pok & sei pok. I was curious about Poon Fun's book as it is written entirely in chinese and my wife won't help me translate. I thought it odd not to have both stances but wasn't sure if it was an old style of kung fu.

The waist and shoulder are critical to good CLF, maybe the chinese speaks of it but the pictures don't show it well. They do show it a little but it mostly looks like a waist turn in a sei ping ma. Doesn't matter its only a book.

Do you know of this Sifu Poon Fun was he a classmate of your father? What was his background?

Peace.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by CLFNole
Sisuk Joseph:
I was curious about Poon Fun's book as it is written entirely in chinese and my wife won't help me translate.

Why not?

[CLFNole]

Because she doesn't like kung fu and can be a pain in the arse sometimes. But thats another story.

[Serpent]

Oh man. That sucks.

Sorry to hear that.

[extrajoseph]

The amount of time and energy we spent with our kung fu it is worse than having a mistress, so we can't expect our woman folk to like us obssessed man doing kung fu. But if we can bring money home with our kung fu, then that is a different matter....

The 3 books (Ng Lun Ma, Ng Lun Chui and Siu Mui Fa) were written not by Poon Fung but by his son Poon Sheung-Seu and disciple Leung Dat.

Poon Fun is a well known disciple of Chan Yiu-Chi and got on well with the Chan family. The Poon family is still very active in Guangzhou with their Guangzhou CLF Association and they are in touch with Futshan Hung Sing Kwoon and even taught some of the instructors there (shhh....). They have access to a lot of good information and knowledge and the books are as good as you can get in the open market. It is a pity they are not translated into English.

I have seen some of your so called "older style" Ng Lun Ma done slower with less turning. It is just that some peole (especially the older generation) are more into Jie Ma (holding stance) than Che Kuen (throwing punches). We are less patient and more into mobility than stability these days, that is all, otherwise they are much the same.

[CLFNole]

Sisuk Joseph:

I noticed that Chan Yong Fa's Ng Lun Ma is done rather quickly. I learned doing it more slow however the waist turns are done quick and explosively, the only difference in style is that we hold each stance longer.

Personally I think both ways are good and I practice them both slow and fast. How were you taught and how do you like to practice the form?

Peace.

[JAZA]

CLFNole:

When we are learning Ng Lun Ma we do it slwly too holding the stances, and then is practice in velocituy.

[Fu-Pow]

it will go from Sai Ping Ma to Ji Ng Ma to Ding Ji Ma (strightened back leg) even, otherwise it will be difficult to reach your target.

Interesting, I've never heard some of these terms before. Sei Ping Ma is universal "Four Corner Horse." Ji Ng Ma = "Character 5 Horse"? Ding Ji Ma = " T-shape Character Horse."

I'm assuming that that the Ji Ng Ma that you refer to is a bow stance but with the hips and shouders not fully perpendicular to the back leg, the "Ding Ji Ma" is with the shoulder and hip fully turned perpendicular to the back leg, with the back leg straightened?

I've had a lot of trouble with this in the past as my Sifu does not distinguish (in words) between Ji Ng Ma and Ding Ji Ma. But there are definitely moves where you don't fully turn to Ding Ji Ma but you are not really in horse stance either, so I'm guessing this is Ji Ng Ma. I've noticed that LKH would do Biu Jong from a horse stance rather than from Ji Ng Ma. My Sifu does Biu Jong all the way to Ding Ji Ma.

Am I on track here, any comments?

Also, Chen Taiji does not have the Ding Ji Ma only Ji Ng Ma because they consider turning the hip too far to be miss aligned or "crossed."

Anyone have any thoughts on this, I hope I'm using these terms correctly or none of this is going to make sense.

[Fu-Pow]

Here are some pictures for clarification:

This is the stance I'm assuming is Ji Ng Ma:

http://www.clfma.com/images/custom/articles/jer1.jpg

You can see that the hips and shoulders are about 45 degrees to the back leg.

This would be a Sei Ping Ma:

http://clfma.com/albums/CLFMA-Gallery-05/aag.sized.jpg

This would be more like a Ding Ji Ma or Gong Ma, with the hips and shoulders turned all the way forward:

http://clfma.com/albums/CLFMA-Gallery-07/aad.jpg

[RAIN]

guys , how you put his foots in sey ping ma ? pointed to the front and parallel or open his foot's points a little ?
i noted that grandmaster li siu hung open his foot in a notable way .


another question :

inside the lee koon hung linaje do exist more trainning exercices like ng lum kuen ?
how long is lie ma ?

[Fu-Pow]

I do it with my feet a little bit out. This is the only way that you can open up the knees (to make a square horse) and keep the feet flat on the ground. If you turn your feet straight forward you will end up on the outside edge of the foot. I don't think this is really good for your knees.

[extrajoseph]

In the photos Fu Pow showed, the first one is ding ji ma because the guy is trying to reach forward with his dai do so his body is fully extented, thus his back leg is also doing the same. The second one is sei ping ma with a bit of tunt ma as he goes down and the third one is ji ng ma as he turns.

There are precise CLF terms to describe the body in motion, pity they got a bit mixed up and lost in time.

Taijiquan is an "internal" form, its movements are "hidden" and "circular" and not showed to the fully extent, so we will not see any ding ji ma.

The equivalent explanation in CLF is when we do biu jong with a more "internal" emphasis we will do it in si ping ma with a slight ji ng ma at the end, and when we do it with a more "external" expression we will do it faster and go all the way from siping ma to ji ng ma to ding ji ma and change from "rotation" to "reach" (from a circle to a straight line). The "external" is governed by the "internal" and vice versa.

[Serpent]

Joseph is quite right. Ding ji ma is what a lot of people call bow stance these days, with a straight back leg. ji'ng ma is a gripping stance with the back knee bent and angled out from the body about 45 degrees. In both of these stances the body should be turned fully so that the back shoulder overtakes the front shoulder for maximum reach and power.

Also, with the sei ping ma, the feet should be paralell and the groin and hips strong and flexible enough to open the knees fully. This is a stable stance. The toes might point outwards slightly, but only the smallest amount (although ladies can point their toes out a little more as their pelvis is slightly different). If you can't do a full sei ping ma and keep your feet paralell then you need to work on flexibility of the groin and hip and strength in the stance.

[extrajoseph]

Ji Ng Ma refers to the time Ji Si and Ng Si, that is between 11 – 12 o’clock at night and between 11 – 12 o’clock in the morning. If we look at the watch, the hour hand and the minute hand are bent in relationship to each other. Ji Ng also refers to the direction north and south – the direction your body is facing with our front and your back.

Ji Ng has a similar idea to bow and arrow. The arrow is straight facing front and back while the bow is bent so it can be fired. So Ji Ng Ma and Kung Jin Ma (Bow and Arrow Stance) mean the same thing. Ding Ji Ma (or stance in the character Ding and Ding is written with a downward stroke and a tick at the end like a straightened leg pushing the foot at an angle against the ground) is an end expression of Ji Ng Ma when we want to reach out.

Serpent is right, don’t drop your knee when you do Ji Ng Ma or Bow and Arrow Stance, you will lose power because you will lose the thrust against the ground with your foot.

[yik-wah-tik]

joseph,

comeon man! it has been pretty quiet in here and you don't need to start anything anymore. even i say this battle is boring. but i you act like fut san learning or should i say re-learning sets from the son in guangzhou is secret knowledge. but you do know he is mostly a hung sing man? right?

so let it go. i am not going to argue with you on this. this will be my last post to you since i don't have the time and energy to continue this.

i don't think you are as old as you claim to be. i don't think you came from a time when clf flourished throughout guangzhou. if you did then you would have understood the conditions in china and that just being linked to clf can get you killed. most of the old elders all have the same mentality, i mean in the hung sing branch, the same mentality is the same around the world, my point is that fut san is recognized as the birthplace of hung sing clf. they may have forgotten what they learned. but that is because they were forced to close down and go into hiding. and most times sets were forgotten, but the fighting aspect will always exist.

from 1839 to 1949 the fut san hung sing kwoon was the largest school in all of guangzhou. the original fut san hung sing kwoon has been officially recognized by the chinese government as one of the most biggest and famous schools of its time.

so, it is not the fut san hung sing to worry about because jeong yims students have established other hung sing kwoons around the world that are directly related to fut san hung sing kwoon. and if the homeland needs help to rebuild themselves then it is out duty as clf family to come and help in their time of need.


so i ask you to let this battle go and do what you can to repair the wounds that we all have inflicted on choy lee fut. don't get it wrong i am not bending on my beliefs, i am just going to stop the fighting about our historical issues and just have our story told.

for myself, i am in progress of doing my repairs. hopefully it will be out in the open soon but yes i am trying to help bring clf back together as one big family.

so joseph, let the battle go. there is no need to negatively respond to this because i am thru here.

and to most of you who read these posts, get out while you can.
this is a trap that has not bottom. a never ending nightmare.


sincerely,

frank joseph mccarthy
american hung sing kwoon
fut san hung sing kwoon

[Fu-Pow]

Huh?

[extrajoseph]

Since I can not think of anything positive to respond, I am speechless.

JosephX