Rant: Kali-What MMA do to feel exotic?

[KC Elbows]

I've noticed that Kali seems to be pretty popular among the MMA these days.

Ironically, respect for kali has filtered down to the MMA troll, people who probably don't really know all that much about fighting, but think they do because, well, after all, they're MMA!

Now, the MMA troll likes to attack the traditional martial artist over their silly traditions, yet will spout off jargon in another language with great pride as long as it is kali, or another martial art that has become accepted in the popular lexicon of MMA.

To be sure, kali is an awesome art, but isn't it somewhat duplicitious to, on the one hand, lambast the traditional martial artists for their traditions, and, on the other, to take part in similar traditions to learn kali?

This is not an attack on MMA, frankly, I don't believe there really is such a thing as mixed martial arts(my style is a hybrid of hsing yi, pa kua, and mantis, therefore I suppose I'm a MMA, plus I have some longfist and a bit of wrestling). I'm just commenting that it's OK in some moron's oxygen deprived brain(too many chokes) to crosstrain in one traditional art, but others are too traditional.

After all, Kali is a traditional martial art. Hell, wrestling is too. Boxing, for that matter, though some of the tradition is not popular due to the fact that everyone uses gloves now(dropped elbows and such).

So, what will be the next "non-traditional" art? Pankratian?

[End of rant]

[apoweyn]

KC Elbows,

That's an interesting point. Think about muay thai. Depending on who's teaching it, that can be an extremely traditional art. And I have to agree about kali. My first school certainly wasn't the most traditional, but at the same time, it was just as much so as many of the other schools I've seen.

Ironically, I think the perceived appeal is just the opposite. (And I say perceived because that's what we're really talking about here. Not truth. But people's perceptions about a given style.) I think the appeal of things like kali are that they are more traditional.

Kali hasn't been in the general public's view for as long as taekwondo, kung fu, or karate have. So a lot of the concessions that come along with mass consumption haven't been made yet (though they're beginning to occur).

Think about karate. Safe to say that the McDojos are an altered version of the original dojos. And they were altered to appeal to a wider audience. The same will happen (is happening) with kali. But for the time being, it still holds the image of being an untainted battlefield art. In other words, it's still viewed as serving the same purpose today that it did in the beginning. That's something that many kung fu, karate, and taekwondo schools have lost through mass consumption. That image (as opposed to that reality).

You're right that it doesn't make much sense though. It's sort of a reasoning shortcut that people take.


Stuart B.

[guohuen]

Don't know about MMA. The people I know that are don't consider themselves as such. Many of the boxers I know are gravitating towards Grav Maga. (Probably a good choice)

[SDriver]

I was kind of expecting a rash of Hollywood Kali after "The Bourne Identity."

As for trolls, I'm sure they will be weighing in shortly. I have never met an MMA or BJJ person in "real life" who acts the way that MMA and BJJ people act online, so I assume that a) MMA and BJJ people turn into instant jerks when they log on, or b) the jerks aren't really MMA and BJJ people, or c) I just haven't met the right jerks.

(PS: Some good natured joking about TMAs does go on among the BJJ folks with whom I train. That's because several of those people are very good at one TMA or another, so it gives us something to bust them about. But no one I train with seriously disrespects TMAs.)

[ewallace]

For the record, I am going to start training Pekiti-Tirsia Kali and I have not yet seen The Bourne Identity.

[apoweyn]

SDriver,

Being online, I think, gives people the anonymity to be jerks in a way that they wouldn't dare in person. MMA, TMA, regardless.

As for the Bourne Identity, I doubt it'll affect the popularity of kali much. Getting back to the image thing, people oddly don't really make the connection with kali unless there are two sticks involved. (Ironically, 'The Perfect Weapon' did far more for kali than I expect 'The Bourne Identity' to do. But the American Kenpo guys that performed demonstrations at the theatre when TPW came out used to get REAL cranky when onlookers asked if it was FMA.)


Stuart B.

[SDriver]

ewallace,

I didn't mean to suggest that Kali students are trend-riders... just that I expected a bit of an upswing in popularity because of its role in a feature film. Then again, it may have been chosen for the film because of an upswing in popularity. :)

What are your reasons for taking it, i.e., what is Kali supposed to bring to the mix that you're not getting elsewhere? The information I've been able to find on it is kind of murky as to what it's actually *like*, and I haven't seen the movie either.

For my purposes, it's academic, as there are no Escrima/Kali instructors in my area. But I am curious, as it does seem to be bandied about more these days.

[DragonzRage]

Well, I guess you would call me an MMA guy. To be honest, i think traditional Kali is pretty overrated myself (not that it doesn't have some value). I am by no means an expert at it but i had some exposure to it during my time in JKDC and through some friends of mine. To me the weapons aspect seems to have some useful stuff in it, but it is also bogged down by a lot of fancy patterns and useless flashiness. As for the empty hand aspect, believe it or not I find a lot of kung fu and karate systems to be more practical.

As for the ideas about "traditional" MA, I think you have a point. The term "traditional" is misused a lot in common martial arts discussions. Using the literal definition, an art such as Muay Thai can be considered a very "traditional" style. Whereas something such as TKD, which really isn't that old of an art and was invented as a sport, probably shouldn't be considered "traditional". When MMA people talk about "traditional" arts i don't think they are referring so much to the cultural history of the art as they are referring to the methods of training and mentality.

[ewallace]

In my case I had a choice between Kenpo, TKD, krav maga, wing chun and Pekiti-Tirsia Kali. I have done kenpo, I will never do TKD, krav was too expensive, and wing chun just didn't spark my interest. I went last night to check out the P-T and I was very impressed. I have made my decision based on these factors (in no particular order):

1. I felt at home from the moment I walked into the studio. The students and instructors were very friendly.

2. The class was organized, layed-back but very serious at the same time. They worked very hard, and generally seemed to have a good time doing it.

3. The fees are very reasonable.

4. The instructor said both of these things to students:
a. You will get hit
b. You fight like you train

5. There is not as much political b.s... yet.

6. The system is very organized.

7. Instructors must fight.

8. It even looks fun to practice outside of class.

9. I'm excited like a 6 year old boy on christmas morning about training in P-T. Something I have not felt about the others I looked at.

While not everyone will agree with these principals, they are very important to me. I have done an exhausting amount of research to find a school that met most, if not every one of my needs. My area has very few choices.

[apoweyn]

Ewallace,

I'm glad to hear that the class worked out for you. That's excellent.


Stuart B.

[ewallace]

Thanks. I appreciate the info you have me too. Believe me I soaked in every bit of info I could from every possible point of view. I was handed very little that weighed in on the negative side.

[apoweyn]

That's great. I'm glad it worked out for you.


Stuart B.

[redundant much, stuart?!]

[KC Elbows]

Dragonzrage,
I'm curious what elements of training we're talking about that distinguish traditional from contemporary. For instance, one could say weight training, but weight training isn't really part of martial arts, it's part of weight training. Almost every school I've seen, traditional or no, there were some members who lifted, and some who did not.

Or is it sparring? Again, I've seen grappling classes that rolled, but did not free fight, and I've seen kung fu schools(my own included) that allowed things to go to the ground, as long as something was being learned, even if it is "Gosh, I suck at groundwork", that, in itself, is a good thing to learn.

I'm not disagreeing with you at all, just trying to define some stuff here. I suppose forms would be one thing that counts as traditional. Can you think of others?

Ap/EWallace,
Is it true that kali blade work is descended from spanish fencing? I heard that somewhere, but I don't know enough on the topic to tell whether it's true, as I know little fencing, and only three kali patterns, and I don't even know what those patterns are called. They're common practice from what I've seen, two practitioners do them with sticks in each hand, and the first pattern was like up-up-down as far as targetting, there was a down-up-down pattern, basically different targets, bu the same motion, with the sticks resting at the side of the head and under the armpit on the same side between striking.

[apoweyn]

KC Elbows,

It's called sinawali. 'Weaving.' Refers to any number of partner drills of that sort, though usually it refers to double stick drills like the ones you describe.

It's true that there's a lot of fencing influence, yes. That said (and Black Jack, et al., feel free to correct me on this), that may represent one of the differences between kali and eskrima/arnis. Essentially, all three terms refer to the same basic arts. But it's similar to saying that Goju ryu karate shows more or less Chinese influence than Shotokan despite their both being karate.

Kali is a term used in the Southern Philippines, which tend to show more Moro influence than the north. Whether fencing played a large part in the South, I don't know.

Eskrima and arnis are both Spanish terms though. 'Esgrima' is the Spanish word for fencing. 'Skirmish', literally. And 'arnis de mano' means 'harness (armour) of the hand.' Both names show some Spanish influence.

I fenced a little in college, specifically because I was curious about that link myself. A lot of the maneuvers were the same, particularly with sabre fencing (as sabre allows for slashing as well as thrusting).


Stuart B.

[KC Elbows]

Cool. Thanks for the info.

[apoweyn]

No worries.


Stuart B.

[yenhoi]

Ap:

What lineage(s) or types of arnis did you learn or are training?

[apoweyn]

mostly doce pares. i train now with an instructor out of dan inosanto's lineage though, so it gets a bit more complicated after that. but in terms of definite lineage, doce pares.


stuart b.

[Braden]

To better understand the situation, realize that when an MMA guy says 'traditional' he actually means 'someone who doesn't train well.' It's a wierd kind of dialect that has sprung up.

[apoweyn]

Braden,

I think you've hit the nail on the head. "Traditional" has become a bad buzzword for poor training. Which is absurd.


Stuart B.

[SDriver]

Also realize that when one MMA guy disses you on the internet, he's speaking for all MMA guys, everyone in the world who cross-trains or enjoys watching MMA events. Sometimes I don't even know what I think until I log onto sherdog or ADCC, and then it becomes clear. So clear. ;)

You know why there are no good Jonestown jokes? The punch lines are too long.

I will tell you one good thing that can come from jerk-off MMA guys busting the balls of TMA guys... there seems to be a bit more scrutiny on TMA schools where nothing of use is being taught. McDojos or Sensei Fatty's House o' Flapjacks or whatever the current term is. I'm all for the "walk the walk" movement. I wouldn't train under a BJJ instructor who couldn't demonstrate the application of BJJ principles, and hopefully that same skepticism is permeating the martial arts consumer base to a greater extent these days. But I'm probably overestimating the influence of the "MMA movement."

If I were a traditional martial artist, I would jump for joy every time a false "master" was exposed as a charlatan. And I would welcome any evidence that someone else's training method might be of use. I'm *not* a traditional martial artist, but I'm always willing to learn something useful... I just posted elsewhere about my BJJ instructor nailing me with an aikido wristlock from the guard. :) If someone wanted to show me some kali, or some kung fu, or anything that would integrate well with my base, I'd be all over it. Basically anything but Turkish wrestling.

I was always under the impression that traditional martial artists evolved this way, too, way before Bruce Lee or MMA.

[apoweyn]

actually, they evolve strictly through Turkish wrestling. so i guess you won't be making 'master' now will you.

:)

[ewallace]

Why the hell would wrestling with turkeys make you any better?

[apoweyn]

Good for the footwork. You've seen 'Rocky', right? It's like that... but with turkeys.

[ewallace]

Yes but...one should not wrestle with something that one shall eat.

[SDriver]

Originally posted by ewallace
Yes but...one should not wrestle with something that one shall eat.

This probably applies in an oblique and unfortunate way to Turkish wrestling.

[Braden]

"I was always under the impression that traditional martial artists evolved this way, too, way before Bruce Lee or MMA"

Yup.

[DragonzRage]

KC,

I myself would hesitate to comment on "traditional" training methods because they vary so much from style to style and school to school. And when it gets down to it, I think a lot of people from the MMA school of thought who talk about how useless "traditional" styles are don't really have a firm understanding of those styles themselves.

I'd say that when these people use the label "traditional" they have the following assumptions:

1) Most of them do not truly test their techniques but simply assume that what they're doing will work.
2) They use a lot of impractical training methods that have little correlation to developing fighting skill. Doing forms and sitting in static horse stances for an extended period of time might be considered such.
3) They blindly follow the ways of their lineage and teachers as infallible truth and to change the old ways to be more practical would be considered heresy.
4) They are not sport/competition oriented. They believe that their techniques are too deadly to use in full contact competition.
5) Following traditional standards (bowing, saluting, respecting the ancestors, using correct terminology and etiquette) seems to be the priority in training, rather than simply developing real fighting skill.
6) examples of styles considered "traditional": kung fu, karate, TKD, aikido, ninjitsu, hapkido, taijiquan, Kempo.

I'm not saying that I agree with any of this, but these are the common assumptions I think. I do my best not to think about obscure generalizations. It doesn't really matter if people call what you do "traditional". IMO, we should be looking at three things: techniques, training methods, and results. If the techniques are effective, the training methods are practical, and it produces practitioners with good fighting ability, then its good stuff no matter what you call it.

On a sidenote, you mentioned something about Bjj training that I wanted to comment on. Bjj does not necessarily equate to MMA. Bjj is a style commonly used in and associated with MMA, but a practitioner who does only pure Bjj (without the vale tudo aspect) is a grappler/Bjj player. He is not an MMA guy. MMA means freestyle fighting that combines all ranges and strategies. So if you're not learning how to deal with getting punched in the face and kicked hard, then you're not doing MMA.

[Braden]

"Following traditional standards (bowing, saluting, respecting the ancestors, using correct terminology and etiquette)"

Funny. One of things that really attracted me to kungfu was the utter lack of this.

"They blindly follow the ways of their lineage and teachers"

Funny. One of the things that really turned me away from MMA was the utter proponderance of this.

[SDriver]

Originally posted by DragonzRage

Bjj does not necessarily equate to MMA.
Yeah, that's why I'm boxing, too. Actually, I'm boxing as much for the amazing conditioning as for the striking, as I don't plan on ever fighting vale tudo. But I'd probably be considered an MMA type nonetheless, as I have a BJJ base that I'm trying to supplement with other stuff.

Braden,
Your points are valid. There is a *highly* reputable kung fu instructor in town who holds classes on the basketball court at his house, with his dogs running around. He goes by "Mike," not "Sifu." He wears shorts. Good times, but the motions themselves are very counterintuitive for me. On the bright side, the day after training with him, it felt like someone had worked my legs with a baseball bat.

There are also BJJ guys who wear NASCAR gis and eat papayas "BUT NEVER AT THE SAME TIME AS MANGOS" lol.

But in the case of lineage, it's currently a valid quality control mechanism for BJJ instructors. If you ask a BJJ instructor where he trained and belted etc, you can hop on the phone and call someone who knows whether he's legit or not. And within 2 phone calls, you'll hit someone who knows their shinola. There are currently few enough "fountainheads" of BJJ that you can check up on people's claims pretty easily, and that's a good thing.

[Braden]

It seems like we agree. :)

[yenhoi]

Tai chi is kung fu.

"Traditional" BJJ guys train to be punched and elbowed and kicked hard in the face and elsewhere - not only mma guys that do bjj as part of thier ground fighting tool training.

Not to the poster but to those the poster was talking about:
If horse stance and forms are impractical because they have little correlation to fighting, then so is jumping rope, medicine ball, weight training, and the rest of the list of "modern" training methods.

[yenhoi]

Also, ap:

If you dont mind my asking, who under Guro Dan are you training sticks with? My Lineage is Guro Dan > Rick Faye > Sifu Mancini.

[apoweyn]

yenhoi,

guro pat finley in columbia, maryland. (haven't been round there in ages, mind you, with school, work, and so on.)

i trained a handful of times with guro steve braun too. though it wouldn't really be fair to him to call him an instructor of mine (though i do have to credit him with teaching me the thai round kick).

never trained with guro mike krivka, though i do bump into him literally every time i'm at the local Target. make of that what you will.

:)


stuart b.

[rogue]

Yes but...one should not wrestle with something that one shall eat.

There's a really dirty retort in my head but I just can't bring myself to type it.

[ewallace]

a *****?

[Merryprankster]

The value of any training method tends to depend on what you do with it. Your form training is like shadowboxing--do it slow to develop balance and technique, do it fast and mobile to get some great footwork training and your heart rate up *shrug*. There's no fundamental difference between forms and shadowboxing except one has a more or less pre-determined list barring minor changes from place to place, and the other is free form. That's a giant so what in the grand scheme of things to my mind.

Braden is correct. In MMA, traditional is shorthand for bad training. They have nothing to do with each other, but them's the breaks.

Lastly, here is why MMA guys like Kali. There is a real tendency in MMA to "go to the experts." This is something of our mantra. Wanna learn leg attacks? Go to a folk or freestyle wrestler. Wanna learn gi upperbody throws and footsweeps? Go see a Judoka. Wanna learn leg locks? Sambo. Wanna learn to punch? Go see a boxer. Wanna learn knees, elbows and to kick? Muay Thai. Wanna learn to groundfighting? BJJ, catch, Sambo (sort of), etc.

MMA guys, for the most part, LOVE San shou/San Da, and would kill to see this in action or have a freakin place nearby that has daytime classes (grumble). But most of us have to settle for MT and boxing...

Kali/Eskrima is an extention of that philosophy. None of the other arts we tend to "do" are focused on weapons. Kali/Eskrima is. Couple that with an attitude in Kali/Eskrima that allows the Dog Brothers to exist and become famous as MORE than just a fringe group w/respect to level of contact in training, and it's very appealing to the MMA mindset.

That's probably it in a nutshell.

Yes, I know Kung Fu offers all this and much much more, but I really don't want to hear that anymore than anybody wants to hear that BJJ is the only way to protect yourself on the ground ;)

[apoweyn]

Another explanation, of course, is simply that (rightly or wrongly) Bruce Lee is often credited with furthering the idea of MMA. And his right-hand man is Dan Inosanto. As Guro Dan is also one of the leading proponents of kali in the United States, the association gets made a lot.


Stuart B.

[Kempo Guy]

So in essence, we're talking about functionality... whether it's "traditional" or not.
Training against/with progressive resistance instead of punching air and such...

I think that's what MMA'ist are arguing, not necessarily about an art being traditional...

[SDriver]

Kempo Guy,

That's a big part of it for me... I don't look down on the "traditionals" I know because they're good at what they do, but I would not train the way they train. Apparently they do spar etc, but not until later in their training, and not in public view.

Judging from the posts on internet boards, there are a lot of traditional schools that are very "hands on." I just haven't seen them where I live.

[guohuen]

Nice to know someones teaching Sinawali in Columbia Md. since I've left and my Dad's passed on.

[KC Elbows]

So is all MMA just JKD?

[SDriver]

No, KC, all fighting is kung fu, duh. ;)

[Taomonkey]

"After all, Kali is a traditional martial art."
Dont remember who I copied this from but it was on page one of the thread.
Traditional?
In the Philippines, you would be hard pressed to find a teacher offering Kali 5 years ago. The term just isnt used there. Where is it used, Here in America, mostly by Inosanto and his group. More recently Chris Sayoc has begun using the term to refer to his families system of knife fighting. Some would even argue that Kali is the "Mother Art" of the Pfilippines. This just isnt true.
Is what is being taught out there as Kali quality MA?
Yes. For the most part.
Is it a traditional art.
No, more of a term used by Amercians.
Is it Arnis?
Yes, a part of it, I personally refer to all Philippino Arts as Arnis, as I have yet to be exposed to an art that the essence of, is any different than what I was taught as Arnis.
Why do MMA guys like KALI?
Dan Inosanto, just that simple, he roles with all kinds of groups, and is heavily into Ground Fighting this decade, so who can his instructors group with, MMA gyms.

Just my $0.02

Guro K

[ewallace]

Kali is to the FMA as Kung Fu is to the CMA. That's my two pesos.

[KC Elbows]

Arnis/Kali, the names may or may not be traditional, but we're talking about the arts themselves. I still say they're traditional, regardless of the name.

Just my 2 yen.

[ewallace]

Yo KC. It just occured to me. If you are a "reality" guy, and reality bites...

[KC Elbows]

Hey, does anyone know how to turn off the ignore option?:D

[apoweyn]

guohuen,

you used to live and teach out this way? in columbia? where? when?

sorry. just curious. :)



stuart b.

[guohuen]

'77,'78,'79. Out of my home in Allview Estates. Only took three students at a time. Had a couple of altercations with HoCo's finest and was advised to leave town. Now I'm a New Englander. "Clam chowda" See.

[apoweyn]

Well, I've lived in 'mur-land' (see!) since 1981. :)

That's excellent. I lived in Columbia (Steven's Forest) for three years. Nice area. Well... not Steven's Forest in particular. But Columbia in general, nice area.


Stuart B.

[guohuen]

Good Heaven's, what happened to Steven's Forrest? That used to be a nice neighborhood. When I first moved to Mur-land from Loozy-anna I used to dial the 411 operator just to hear her say "The weather forecast for Baadimore, Napolis and vicinity is...":p When I lived there, if you were going to give the state an enima the choice would be between Ellicott City and Oella as to where you stick the hose. Now I understand their both considered chic. Sometime later this year I'm coming down to visit. It would be nice to hook up with you and Jack Springer.

[apoweyn]

i love historic ellicott city. grew up outside annapolis. used to work in 'bali-mur.' went to school at st. mary's in southern maryland. (now that is the arse end of maryland. lexington park. at least, it was eight years ago. but it's gotten a lot more chic as well, oddly enough.

yeah, let me know when you're going to be in the area.

by the way, one of my guros just informed me that grandmaster cacoy canete is coming to the area for a seminar in september.



stuart b.

[KC Elbows]

****it, I put up a perfectly good troll thread to get the MMA and traditional crowd slavering, and it turns into the Maryland lonely hearts club.:D

Oh *****.

[ewallace]

That's because everyone knows Kali is cool. Did you know that most mma guys really talk a lot of **** about six elbows kung fu?

[guohuen]

I saw Bonnie Rait play in the gym at St Mary's in '77. Great show!

Welcome to the Escrimador's chat room everyone.:p

[apoweyn]

KC Elbows,

Eskrimadors need love too. :)

[apoweyn]

guohuen,

the gym they're about to replace, as it happens. :\

bonnie raitt. man, i think the most famous guy we got down there when i was there was some deadbeat comedian i can't ever remember now.

...

i take that back. phish played there once when i was there.

:)

[guohuen]

Well that gym was just a box with wooden bleachers anyway from what I can remember. The phish show musta been nice. I saw them play Nector's (pictures of Nector) in Burlinton when they were a bar band. I guess Trey is solo now. Those guys were the generation before me so I never got to know them. I used to play Nector's back in '79 '80. Nectors a cool guy. He doesn't pay much but the beer is free and unlimited.

[apoweyn]

well that doesn't suck. :)

yeah, it was a box with bleachers. but i'm getting all nostalgic about it now.

ah well. price of progress, i suppose.


stuart b.

p.s. lest i be accused of wandering too far off track, another reason for the popularity of kali among MMAers is related to merryprankster's point. people who view themselves as realists, for better or worse, tend to concern themselves with the knife. and FMA does emphasize the knife in a way that seems realistic and workable.

[KC Elbows]

Ap,
Nice return. That makes sense, regarding the knife work.

Still, you'd think that chain whip would be the ultimate MMA weapon. After all, it's more portable and concealable than a knife, though more difficult to use, I'd imagine.

Or the judge's pen. I'd love to learn some judge's pen.

[truewrestler]

I think Kali is respected because of the Dog Brothers.

http://dogbrothers.com/techseq/200110/oct2001.htm

[apoweyn]

thanks KC.

i think there's a range appeal to the knife as well. often, when 'realism' comes up, people will say something like "whaddya, gonna throw a spinning hook kick in a crowded bar?!"

same rationale. that's a guess, mind you. i'm not really the urban warrior sort myself. more like a suburban layabout really.

:)

[ewallace]

I think the dog brothers being turned away from the UFC for being too extreme helped too.

[thekuntawman]

why do people love the philippine martial arts?especially fighters?

i believe its because the philippine styles is the opposite in growth from most of the other fighting styles. "traditional" pilipinos will make fighting the center of his style and the measuring tool of his student skill. how many of you guys who have an old man visiting your test, and then he says, forget all of this stuff (the things they are doing for the test), let me see them fight! we dont have forms in traditional "FMA", all those drills you see in the seminars and tapes, they are new additions to the fighting arts, mostly you will learn strategies and fighting tactics. and everything a FMA teacher knows, he can do it in fighting.

most of the non-philippine styles are the opposite. they have many things that represent fighting, like form and face to face drilling, and twirling combinations and stuff, but fighting is one part of the training. of course when you see the eskrima class with no sparring (which is 99% of the classes), you are not looking at eskrima. in a traditional karate class, you practice techniques then you go home, then maybe you will fight for the testings. in traditional eskrima/arnis class, you train for half the class, then you will spar the other half. there is no need for a test because the teacher knows if you can fight since he seen you do it every night for 5 years. maybe if there is a test, the teacher will invite another teacher to come and "test" you, which means he will fight you to see if you deserved to be called "expert".

because of our tradition of fighting with all your weapons, fighters like the philippine martial arts. but because of growth and commercial and money, its hard to find traditional philippine martial arts now.

[thekuntawman]

oh, and the muslims of the philippines do not practice "kali" which is only used by foreigners and people who teach foreigners.

in the muslim world we call our philippine martial arts, silat, kuntaw, eskrima, and arnis. beware of anybody who is telling you he does the "ancient art of kali, pass down from generation to generation." :D

[apoweyn]

kuntawman,

thanks for the correction. my first teachers used the terms arnis and eskrima (being from cebu). but the JKD guys tend to use the term kali. so what you said makes a fair amount of sense. but, out of curiosity, where does the term come from then?

another thought which may or may not have come up already: if an MMA type is looking to strengthen some weakness in his experience, as merryprankster noticed, he's going to want to go to an expert. he's also not necessarily going to want to go through years of other information to get to that expertise. the filipino martial arts generally start with the weapons and work down to empty hand, rather than the other way around. so if an MMA proponent comes to FMA to learn weapons defense (or offense), he knows he doesn't have to wait for it the way he might in a lot of other styles.


stuart b.

[ewallace]

has a pure FMA ever fought in a UFC or Pride - type event?

[apoweyn]

nope. not to my knowledge.