Temple Kung Fu Student in Need of Help!!

[Seeker]

Hi all,

I am new to this forum but for the past week I've been perusing through many different postings and I'm impressed at how much there is to learn from other people through the net. It has definitely opened my eyes to certain things. I've been training at TKF for over 7 years but ever since I've started, I haven't heard of anything that suggested fraudulent activities happening at TKF. I guess you could say that I was a blind follower and didn't really question much (mostly from fear of getting “kicked out”). But now that I’ve read what others with TKF experience have to say, I’ve decided to try and gather as much legitimate evidence proving or disproving TKF’s and GM Simon’s credibility. Whatever I come up with, I will compile and share with as many students as possible at TKF. I really need help from everyone who has information or can lead me into the right direction. Also, does anyone know where I can find Master D. Piercy?

[norther practitioner]

Do searches on the forum (on the top, towards the right there is a link) for Simon, TKF, Temple kung fu, ect. You should be able to find a number of threads.

[Water Dragon]

Best thing to do is go check out a bunch of schools in your area. Then you can make a comparison based on what you see, not on what other people say. and, if you're happy, that's really all that matters.

[ewallace]

How's that new temple coming LOTF? I have some coupons for some good craftsman tools if you need them. Hopefully TKF offers workman's comp to its "followers".

[Seeker]

It's not that I don't enjoy the training and the people or that I'm not continuously impressed with the knowledge given to me, it's the fact that I don't like to be taken for a fool. This thread was not meant to step on TKF, but to bring proven truth to the surface and let everyone come out of the dark. if indeed they are in the dark. No one has proven to me that Triad is lying. Is it not possible that he's not? Even you left a message with the Ging-Wu school for Margie Hilbig, did you not? I just want hardcore evidence that what I believed in for almost the past decade is true. I'm sure that many people, not just students at TKF would want the same thing.

[252aCtUa|*]

amen brotha!!

[BrentCarey]

Seeker,

As you've probably read, I was an instructor at TKF back in the early '90s. I will tell you whatever you want to know, but not here in this public forum. This subject has been beat to death.

There are two major groups:

1) People with no direct experience with TKF, yet loudly denounce everything about it.

2) People with direct experience that point out that there are good points and bad points to TKF, and that it is not all bad.

... and a few minor groups

3) People with direct experience that denounce everything about TKF (2 or 3 people)

4) People with or without direct experience that advocate the "if you're happy, what's the problem?" approach. (small minority)

5) People with direct experience that fully support TKF (one person that I can think of)

So, to summarize, people that are knowledgeable about the subject, especially current and former instructors tend to assert that the training and overall experience are high-quality, but that the business practices are questionable and the cult-like status of Simon needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

People that are not directly knowledgeable about the subject tend to treat TKF like the plague.

What is disturbing is the intensity with which a few people try to convince others to stay away from TKF entirely. This tends to come from people that have not spent any significant amount of time at one.

My advice, based on what I know of your situation, is to stay at TKF. Why would you leave? Definitely check around and gather your own facts. Most of what you'll get here is conjecture. Also, question your chief instructor in a non-confrontational manner about things that seem questionable. If you cannot come to terms that seem reasonable and fair then that is unfortunate for both of you.

However, despite what some people will tell you, do not abandon TKF without a) collecting facts as it sounds you are, and b) attempting to reconcile any problems you have.

Think of your school like an employee. If you had an employee you have been happy with for 7 years, then heard that he had been doing something questionable, would you fire him? Of course not. You would try to collect the facts (as you are apparently doing), then talk to the employee to try to remediate any problems that may exist. This would allow you and your employee to continue in a mutually beneficial manner.

Again, feel free to contact me outside this public forum. My email address is easy enough to find. Good luck to you.

Best regards,

Brent Carey

[Stone Monkey]

1. Most, if not all of the quality instructors, incl. Master Piercey, have left the organization, mostly due to conflicts with Simon regarding ethics and business practices. (Brent...?)

2. The 'Chief Instructors' who are left tend to be ill-informed yes-men, some with less than a year's worth of training (any with more than five?), and little-to-no experience with sparring, contact, real confrontations or other arts, concepts, etc.

3. The atmosphere of secrecy created by the instructors is ridiculous - students are routinely asked to inform on each other and 'encouraged' not to discuss Martial Arts outside 'the Temple', always with hints of being kicked out. Instructors often eavesdrop on student conversations. Rumours are spread by intsructors to discredit those who have left (...Piercey was caught stealing from TKF, Richard Shergold is the devil, etc.).

4. Prices have not only skyrocketed, former students and instructors have told of 'scripts' and 'learning lines' to rope in students and extract as much cash as they can. Contracts are sneaky and designed to hold on to as much money as possible should the student decide to leave. The contracts have also been shown to be illegal, at least in BC, by another person on this forum.

5. The mystique of the Pai Hu-shih is gone - Simon is obviously NOT the keeper of any secret Kung Fu styles. PHS is no more than a carrot-on-a-string to keep students paying. Simon is not a Celestial Grandmaster, nor is "Uncle Yen". Simon is not the 23rd Generation Successor of the Tookien Shiu Lin Monastery, there is no 'Oath' written on the walls of the White Horse Temple (Luoyang, China - Simon has never been there), he is not a Buddhist, a Shaolin priest or the keeper of the White Tiger style. There is no such thing as a "Dalai Seng Shih", and His Holiness does not teach traditional Chinese martial arts.

6. By continuing your training there, you are (IMHO) somewhat condoning Simon's behaviour, and suggesting that it's okay for him to lie to people and take their money. This compliance is what allows him to continue to accumulate massive wealth, both through tuition fees, and the mountains of paraphenalia his various companies produce, and his students are forced to purchase (no- I don't think 'forced' is too strong a word - esp. when it comes to the high-priced uniforms).

7. Questioning your chief instructor "in a non-confrontational manner about things that seem questionable..." will result in little more than "Either you're with us or you're against us..." Try it! Let us know how it goes... this is often the last straw for students. When they can't get straight answers and/or their instructor tries to intimidate them, make them feel guilty for asking, or imply that they are traitors, they realize it's time to go.

8. Sparring is gone. Simple as that. (I know about the 'Scientific Sparring' classes that cost $800 a year for one class a week - sorry but that is NOT sparring). Sparring (as I'm sure anyone on this board will tell you) is an ESSENTIAL part of a Martial Artist's training. There is so much that sparring teaches you that you simply can't learn otherwise (even with Kungrobics).

9. Olaf's focus has completely shifted from martial arts to his cult and his shrine:
This is a quote from "Temple Arts" - the magazine for TKF students (Vol. I Issue III Holiday Issue). It is from an article by Olaf's wife ("2nd most distinctive person of the Temple, the most Gracious Reverend, Guardian of the Temple, the next Dalai Seng Shi to be, D. June Simon (Grand Master of Style in Form), known by the Temple name "Nanlao"." The article is entitled "Neo Ch'an Thought":

"I think this year the need for the (mind training) seminars is even greater than ever as the touch of greed, envy, competition seems to be penetrating our society almost to epidemic level. We see it in our own rows and we must all work to stem the tide. I would ask that the students of Temple Kung-fu in the Kung-fu Club and the Pai Hu-shih help to return what Grand Master has given to us and begin to serve in ways which will be explained to you by your Chief Instructor and the Supervisors." :eek: --D. June Simon

"The Neo Ch'an Buddhist Temple of Canada has commenced preparation... This Temple will be the main temple for all followers of this religious persuasion."
"The main structure of the Temple will be two hundred feet in length with a span of forty feet. The height of the structure is estimated to be close to forty feet as well."

"The total completion of this project will involve vast amounts of money and energy, most of which will be provided by the followers of the Neo Ch'an Buddhist Temple and the adherents of the Neo Ch'an thought."
from: http://www.neochan.com/shrine.html

10. Finally, the best reason to leave is that there are genuine martial arts instructors who will teach you, and teach you much better (and usually at a fraction of the cost). They will be upfront with you and answer your questions to the best of their ability. They will encourage your development as a martial artist, and they will have the experience to fine-tune your skills. Sounds pretty good, doesnt' it? There is no need to settle for Temple Kung-fu. You owe it to yourself to find a teacher who deserves your loyalty and respect. You'll be glad you did.

[Stone Monkey]

I am reposting this because it seems to be a fairly accurate account of Simon's earlier years by someone with no axe to grind against TKF:

"I am new to this forum however I can relate to some of the things discussed. I studied under Olaf Simon in 1967-1969. At that time it was called Simon Karate Studios. On the wall he had some certificate that said he was a 7th degree blackbelt. I don't know where he got it from but on thinking back and comparing against what I know are 5th degree black belts, I would say he was much better than them in skill and knowledge. I know he generated some pretty god blackbelts in Calgary and Edmonton. Some names that come to mind are Randy Ness, Lyndon and Edward Bateson, Dwight Sher and there were many others. Dwight Sher was very good at tournament fighting and operated his own Karate school in Saskatchewan. I don't think he ever learned anything to do with Kung Fu, just pure Karate. I remember we did pretty well all of the forms I saw in one of Mas Oyama's books which were published at the time. Olaf Simon did speak of Tsuroka in Toronto and he did spend time in that city so maybe something was learned there. Definitely he was very talented. Lydon Bateson him self generated some very excellent Karate practitioners such as Mike Pucket in Victoria and Stan Pederick a world level kickboxing champion. When I joined Margi Hilbig was also there. Class were very disciplined and Olaf Simon always led the classes and sparred with everyone in the class. Their kicking skills were very good.

when I was there I heard that Simon's best student by the name of Heinz turned on him as soon as he was awarded his blackbelt. Apparently Heinz met some people from Hong Kung who were very good at Hung style. These people convinced Heinz that Karate was garbage. So after learning some Hung style Heinz challenged Simon to an all out duel. A while later the Hung style teachers themselves showed up at Simon's Karate studios and said they just wanted to talk. Then in the middle of the talk they tried to "Sucker kick" him with a low kick. However Simon dumped him on his head very hard. He got up shaking and they realized Simon was no pushover. So they left. After that he received no more threats from them. Olaf Simon also had a rivalry going with the Alberta Judo champion at that time who thought karate was useless. Olaf spent some time with some pretty hefty football players analyzing the effectiveness of some of his hits.

After these incidents Olaf Simon for the first time introduced what he called Moo Kung Fu which he said was a Northern style. He said it had 4 forms consisting of about 400 motions. He demonstrated one of those forms and taught this to a special class. At that time there wasn't this high fee program. I was studying in Edmonton at the time . I think this new Kung Fu development was started in about 1968. When Simon taught, he would teach many many things. Each lesson he taught a dozen or so new techniques against punches and kicks. The Kung Fu stuff definitely was not Karate, it seemed like Kung Fu actions put on top of a Kenpo base. However some of the footwork and hand actions were not from Kenpo either so I don't know where this stuff cam from. I heard he taught some people in China town some things he never taught at the studio. Perhaps he exchanged knowledge with someone there. Some of the kicks I saw Lyndon Bateson do resembled the kicks from My Jong Law Horn. They were very fancy flying spinning kicks which were countered using the same technique, namely jumping, spinning and messing with the technique using exact timing.

Olaf Simon was very exceptional at tournaments demonstrating sparring against four good blackbelts simultaniously, smashing 12 patio tiles, big ice blocks or perhaps one hard brick (not baked). Also he demonstrated knife defense by giving each of his students a knife in turn and having them attack him how they likes. He also used a sword to for this but said this was a bit dangerous. He told he students that the breaking was just showmanship for business reasons and didn't recommend anyone learn this. However his student Dwight Sher also became a pretty good breaker. Dwight did compete also in the USA Karate tournaments and in one got his ribs kicked in with a spinning roundhouse kick yet he still managed to drive home. He used his Karate one day to save some guys life at a meat packing plant where he worked when someone was attacking a fellow worker with a large butcher knife.

I remember going to a Karate tournament help in Penticton. A blackbelt from another style sponsored it. His name was Emil Rpack, he was also very good. Him and Dwights Sher battled it out with impressive style and then Simon took the both of them on. The fights were pretty good. Back then there was talk of Bruce Lee and Joe Lewis the Karate champion. Simon said he figured he could still give Joe Lewis a run for his money. I think it was a fair statement and was not exaggerated. He didn't say he would win for sure but only that he was in his league.

At the end of 1969 we suddenly got new badges from Ed Parker's Kenpo studio. Apparently Simon tried to use Ed Parker's marketing approach. I think this was the time that Simon took a new path and decided to go into big business. At that time I moved to Toronto an started to study Hung style, later Tai Chi and later Wing Chun. From my studies I conclude Simon's Karate was top notch. His Kung Fu resembled a combination of Northern style something judging from the kicks and stances and other parts resembled Kenpo with it's millions of techniques on top of a Karate base.

Olaf Simon didn't think Bruce Lee was that good however his students all felt that Bruce Lee was good. I remember Lyndon Bateson copying Bruce Lee's moves from the show "The green Hornet" Everyone was impressed except Olaf Simon. – to be continued

[Stone Monkey]

Olaf Simon - Temple Kung Fu part II

Years later I saw some temple Kung Fu adds where Olaf Simon was on some bridge doing some wavy hand actions. When I saw this I thought, that's not the Simon I knew. It didn't look like a powerful Kung Fu or Karate and didn't resemble anything I saw hi do before. Still later I saw Olaf Simon using these strange titles. The whole thing seemed like a religious movement. When I think about the Karate days many students talked about Simon like he was a kind of god but then it was based purely on his fighting skill and not on his talk. By a god I mean the normal way Aikido students view their teacher's which I call treating them like they are some kind of God.

What Simon's base fighting style was, is hard to say . He wouldn't teach that. He just taught millions of actions and you never knew what his real fighting style was. I think he didn't have an easy time with the Karate because of opposition from Judo people, and others. Olaf was a big fan of Chinese martial arts. Although he was very proficient in the Japanese Karate he didn't speak highly of the Japanese the same I suppose as Bruce Lee and his ideas about the Japanese so it was nothing new.

When Simon did his patio block breaks, he would try for a maximum number let's say 12, they wouldn't break so he removed one and then he did it. His hand sometimes would look pretty bruised. In those days Olaf Simon would talk about Mas Oyama a lot and all the things he technically did wrong.

I think business pressures, maybe his divorce, his desire for wealth, maybe a power trip, the failure of maybe USA people to recognize him and many other factors probably combined to set him on this strange course. Definitely Simon succeeded in business. In the 70's various people created fortune's using underhand methods. In Wing Chun someone by the name of Leung Ting was even more successful making more than 10 million dollars teaching. But in each case something of value was taught.

I heard about Olaf Simon's marketing approach years later when I visited one of his "Master" students in Calgary. I forget his name. Anyway he was very open and honest with me and explained the various methods to keep students and to maximize the amount of money paid by each student. This person didn't like doing that so he split from Simon but still taught his basic stuff. He himself also made a considerable amount of money."

"Now when I see Olaf Simon calling himself "His Holiness" I just can't relate to that. we just called him Simon or Olaf even to his face, at least his blackbelts did. But everyone did treat him with respect for his fighting. Simon taught one form that consisted of only elbows applied from al angles. He had many varieties of arm breaks that were not of Kenpo or Karate origin. Simon demonstrated a bit of Tai Chi once but when I later learned Tai Chi I knew it was just some hand actions without the Tai Chi base footwork and arm and body coordination.

In my view it seems that something happened to Olaf Simon to set him on this strange path. If it is not a cult, many things are very cultish looking. Simon has set himself up as sort of a Pope figure who is unapproachable but mere mortals - this is what I get from my very surface knowledge of him now.

I was disappointed at the various books he wrote. The book law of the fist shows some of the Karate he taught and includes the postures of what he called Moo style Kung Fu. He taught various breaks and locks out of those stances. The pictures are from the 60's when I was a student in Calgary and Edmonton.

I guess strange things happen to some people in their lives. Who knows what his thinking is. I read the court testimony of Olaf Simon and it also doesn't seem normal. It was very evasive and non specific. He was not at all like that in the 1960's.

I kind of think his stories of the origin's of his art are not true and were just some marketing gimmick. Many other people did that in those days including Wing Chun with it's made up story of Yim Wing Chun and the nun Ng Mui. In those days we just cared about fighting effectiveness and there was little mystical talk. That must have developed later.

From Ed Parker's book about Chinese Kung Fu I can see that Ed Parker was familiar with a variety of Kung Fu systems. Him and Simon may have exchanged ideas. I don't think Simon learned his Kung Fu from Ed Parker, maybe some Kenpo. I don't think he learned anything from Ark Wong since his style was didn't resemble a true Southern style in my eyes. - too be continued

These are just my observations and thoughts, some of which could be wrong. Perhaps physical Simon couldn't keep up with his own 60's reputation and had to take this new tack to survive financially. Perhaps he just had this giant dream and this is his implementation of it. I doubt if any of the Buddhist origins and his lineage can every be traced. These things are usually a waste of time to check out.

I think maybe Olaf Simon doesn't have a complete Kung Fu system since he hesitates to write anything about it except talk of some temple which may have worked in the 70's but not now. The temple monks now are almost like circus performers. In Simon's old days the government in China outlawed real martial arts practice.

The White Tiger style was something that came after my time with Simon. I have no idea how that relates to his Moo style. The Moo style was taught the same way as Kenpo by teaching a dozen new techniques everyday with no real Kung Fu base of any kind. Real Kung Fu is generally taught in a very different way which doesn't lend itself to mass marketing and money making.

It's too bad Olaf Simon is no longer doing martial arts or has ever filmed his stuff. Maybe there isn't much to it except a large collection of isolated techniques. If Simon's origin's are true then there should be other people who practice a similar kind of art, I don't think there are other than the Kenpo people."

originally posted by Yongchun

[YongChun]

If you have liked the seven years so far and don't mind the fees then maybe it's OK for you. In martial arts it is always good to check out various martial arts before comitting your life to something and finding out later that maybe you picked the wrong one. It is common that once you join an organization and then make it known that you are checking out other organizations that you will get kicked out of your current organization for not having enough trust and faith. This is not just true for Temple Kung Fu. If you really want to know what is Kung Fu in the privacy of your own home, you can order videos of most styles - check out Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut, Preying Mantis, White Eyebrow, Wing Chun, White Crane, Pa Kua, Yang Tai Chi, Hsing I, Snake style, Lama style, My Jong Law Horn, Chen Tai Chi, Wu Shu, White Tiger style, Five Animal style, etc. etc. There are many good Kung Fu styles. Choy Lee Fut has more than a hundred forms with all manners of weapons, wooden dummies, animal forms and freestyle modren tournament fighting. Check out Tat Mao Wong's website. Cmpare your skills with some people from other arts like Karate, Boxing, Judo, Aikido or anything else to see where you stand. At one time Olaf Simon taught very good Karate back in the 1960's. He generated some good Karate talent. No one knows where his Kung Fu came from or what it is exactly maybe a form of Kenpo from Ed Parker. I think Olaf Simon changed totally fromwhat he once was and I don't know why. I think his various titles are wierd - like your Holiness. I don't think he qualifies as some kind of Pope? I knew him in the 1960's.

But if your skills are ok, you are getting somewhere and your instructor is very knowledgeable compared to others you have checked out, then fine. In a good martial art, you can become quite skillful within two years. Average black belt equivalent time is about 5 years in many arts. It's up to you to decide. Every single art has it's detractors. Every art has good and bad fighters. Some arts are genuine styles and some are not. Good fighters can be found in the genuine styles and in the modern eclectic made up ones. Depends on what you want.

[BrentCarey]

Bear in mind, I left TKF about 10 years ago. It sounds like much has changed since I left, followed by several other aforementioned instructors. Prices were not nearly so high, merchandise was not pushed, Simon was just someone we gave respect to, sparring was a normal part of class, and the guilt/fear issue was not so prevalent.

While most of what Stone Monkey posted in his top 10 list is true I take exception to three points.

First, it only paints one side of the picture. There is (or at least was) excellent training to be had at TKF (depending on the studio I suppose). If I have an excellent car that is broken, I fix it. I do not throw out the whole car. I must however decide if it is worth fixing, or if I would be better off just getting a new car.

People are quick to negate the merits of a school or instructor on a single point. I have heard people "warn" others to stay away from a kung fu school because they wore Japanese-style uniforms, so must be a fraud. Someone else recently discounted instructors that didn't know to properly pronounce a particular Chinese word.

Granted, there are several points stacked against TKF, but they do not necessarily outweigh the merit for every student. This brings me to the second point.

It is one thing to inform someone so that he/she can make an informed decision. It is quite another to make that decision for him/her. That is like me telling you (the figurative "you") that you should change your religion, and then telling you why. I have no right to tell you that you should change your religion regardless of how "wrong" I might think your religion is.

The religion analogy is probably awkward, considering Mr. Simon's strange image these days, but no connection was intended. The analogy is just made to assert that one person ought not tell another what he/she should do. The best a person can do is to give the other person as much information as possible so that he/she can make an informed decision.

The third point is that a student does not bear guilt by association. I don't need to elaborate much on this. Simply put, a student is paying a fee for a service. If the student is willing to pay the fee and is satisfied with services rendered, it is NOT the student's responsibility to police the ethics of the source of the services.

If that was true, we would all be guilty many times over. How many times have you grossly overpaid for something, even knowing at the time you were being ripped off, but paid it anyway because the product or service was worth it. Ever buy bottled water at a theme park?

Note that I am not a supporter of TKF. In fact, I should point out that I am a direct competitor in my town. I just can't abide the blanket, black and white statements that are made about schools and instructors including TKF.

If we tolerate these sorts of generalizations, then if we extend the logic upon which they are based, we soon find that we are all completely void of merit. This is much like the saying about people that live in glass houses.

Granted, there are some serious issues that current and prospective TKF students need to take a hard look at. However, this fact does not completely invalidate the TKF experience.

If people are trying to send a message to Mr. Simon that people will not tolerate these business practices, save your breath. TKF does not rely on people that read this forum. It relies on people with no martial arts experience and little or no research into the subject. Then again, so do most schools.

Best Regards,

Brent Carey

[Stone Monkey]

Hi Brent;

Your points are well taken - especially about guilt by association. That #6 does seem pretty harsh in retrospect. I was a little geared-up when I wrote that. No disrespect intended.

I do know that a lot has changed there, however, and there is little left to reccommend. As good as the training was, (and I agree- it was good-to-excellent in the past), it was due to quality, experienced instructors- few of whom remain (due mainly to the reasons detailed above).

"The best a person can do is to give the other person as much information as possible so that he/she can make an informed decision."

I agree. It is to this end that have made most of my TKF posts, not because I enjoy bashing TKF or putting it's students down.

[BrentCarey]

Originally posted by Stone Monkey
I do know that a lot has changed there, however, and there is little left to reccommend.
I'm afraid that's probably true. Even though I am a competitor, it's sad to see it go downhill. I have some great memories from that place. It is unfortunate to see anything good go bad. Perhaps that's why I like to give them the benefit of the doubt, despite evidence to the contrary.

-Brent

[Seeker]

First of all, thank you all for your responses and advice.

Brent, I will definitely take you up on that offer and email you with more detail as to what I’m looking for. I do agree that some things don’t need to be made public just yet. I too have great memories from TKF.

Stone Monkey, how long have you trained with TKF? Were you PHS? If yes, how does GM Simon’s White Tiger Style compare with other styles that you’ve been involved in? What can you recommend in terms of other styles in which you have direct experience with?

YongChun, do you know of any names of tournaments or public demonstrations, that GM Simon was involved in, or any records that can be verified and confirme? How about his involvement with Margie Hilbig, Ed Parker, Ark Y. Wong or any other significant persons that will help determine his true history?

By the way, has anybody found anything about the “Tookien” temple. I couldn’t find anything on the net.

[relaxed]

Brent, brilliant!

Just logged in to check up on new posts over the past week and holy smoke! The Temple ones sure have a life of their own!

Glad to see some acknowledgment of the fact that several good martial artists have trained or taught at TKF.

Seeker, those of us that have trained at Temple (as well as other schools), can vouch for the fact that you receive a solid workout regardless of the strange Dalai Seng Shi Stuff. After seven years you know that. You will get results and you will improve. If you are looking for pure CMA though, I think all will agree that it is not the place to be.

Im curious as to how the organization runs between locations. Each location is independantly owned and operated and they are not owned by Mr Simon. I know that instructors tend to transfer between schools but I know from my experience in the Calgary Studio I never had problems like Ive read about on this forum, stories about Simon or strange sales tactics. Is there much difference in the way each studio is run, Brent?

Id like to hear about experiences with the Calgary studio if anyone has them.

PS: Drove by a (new?) place downtown (Calgary) yesterday called "Physics of Kung Fu", anyone know what the h*&# that is?

[Stone Monkey]

Hi Seeker -

I have enabled my private message option if you would like to contact me privately. I'd be happy to provide you with any information I can.

Although I find all of this annonymity a bit silly, and many know me already, I still have quite a few friends at TKF for whom I would rather not make trouble. The fact that having a chat on the internet could get these people 'in trouble' just points to the ludricrousness of the situation at TKF.

Look forward to hearing from you...:)

[BrentCarey]

Originally posted by relaxed
Im curious as to how the organization runs between locations. Each location is independantly owned and operated and they are not owned by Mr Simon. I know that instructors tend to transfer between schools but I know from my experience in the Calgary Studio I never had problems like Ive read about on this forum, stories about Simon or strange sales tactics. Is there much difference in the way each studio is run, Brent?
There is definitely a big difference in the way each studio is run on a daily basis. In Spokane, we had certain business obligations and expectations that were set and monitored regionally. However, we did our best to shield our students from this.

It is important to understand that we genuinely cared about our studio and the students. It was hard to meet regional expectations and still treat our students honestly and with respect. When this became impossible, I left.

The fact that each studio and instructor is different underscores my point that each TKF/student decision is an individual one. When it comes down to it, the most important thing is the instructor.

Here's the rub. With the high instructor turnover and the lengthy contracts, I don't think it would be unreasonable for a student to insist that the terms of his/her contract are bound to a specific instructor(s).

Essentially, this is saying that the student trusts the instructor and is willing to commit to a long term as long as that instructor is teaching the classes. If he/she is replaced, the student should have the option to terminate the contract.

I doubt this would fly, but I'll bet the instructor would go to bat for anyone that wanted to try it.

Best regards,

-Brent Carey

[252aCtUa|*]

amen to that brent .. thats exactly why i left.. my first instructor was the reason why i went to temple so that i could learn from him, then they replaced him with some joker that barely even knew squat!! and there was nothing i could do about it. there were other qualified instructors at my school but they always switched them around... then they never let me stay with one instructor so we could build a solid base for training on respect and trust. in my opinion it was a joke!

[BrentCarey]

Originally posted by 252aCtUa|*
my first instructor was the reason why i went to temple so that i could learn from him, then they replaced him with some joker that barely even knew squat!!
I'll tell you what was awkward. When I was hired as an instructor, there were a few students there that had been studying kung fu longer than I had. At least one or two of them were simply better martial artists than me. I still had to try to teach them something.

Here's how I dealt with it. I just walked in and said, "OK Mr. Smith, you and I both know that you could teach me about kung fu. However, I have a good eye, and a different perspective than you do. Let's work together as peers and see what we can do to refine your technique."

Everyone was excellent. These session were some of the best training for both of us because there were no egos involved, and we were just training.

Best regards,

-Brent

[couch]

I'm an old student as well. 8 years. I have quite a bit of the same info.

Olaf Simon learned a little Kung-Fu (around the age of 5 or 8).

Much later in life, he came to Canada. Mostly what he was taught was learned from a Margie Hilbig. The Kempo forms that you learn in class are unfortunately not all of them. There are 12. These forms are modified karate pinion forms.

As far as the Temple Motions...they are called Lohan Motions.

These total in 142, not 18. Simon is known to know 36. Also, these are out of order (the 18 that we know).

I believe that Simon learned some White Tiger (the only kung-fu part of the training aside from the Lohan Temple Motions...) in Edmonton as well. He does not know either system to its' completion (Tiger, or Kempo Karate).

If you would like to e-mail me outside of the forum, my e-mail is
talentskates@hotmail.com.

My information comes from e-mailing quite a few people who know Kempo Karate, as well as talking to other martial artists.

I left Temple twice in my journey away from them. I know what it's like to have devoted all your time and effort into something that is incomplete. It still eats me inside to this day. Plus, when you're "inside the box" ...it's hard to see outside, and the truth. If someone said something to me about my current school (as people did when I was training in Simon's school), I wouldn't believe them. I would stick up for them too.

But the minute you let go, and give what people are saying a chance...then you'll begin to appreciate other opportunities. Please...everyone out there who thinks that Temple is the best thing around...I beg of you...talk to other people and give what they say a chance.

Even after going to my new school...they asked me where I was from. After I told a couple of people...they said "Oh...I think Simon only know Karate."

Again...they truth is out there. And I will help anyone who needs it. The style is too linear to be Kung-Fu. Go train in another style...see other schools...you'll begin to understand Kung-Fu.

Peace.

[Stone Monkey]

Nicely put, Couch.

[YongChun]

In answer to the questions below:

1. In the 1960's Olaf Simon was involved in various tournaments that he ran in Calgary and also one in Penticton hosted by Emil Repak. I attended two of these. The brochures said he fought in Salt Lake city. He said some Japanese fighter broke Olaf's foot but on the second attack he dumped the guy upside down during an attempted flying kick. He may have been disqualified for this, I can't remember now.

2. Margi Hilbig was supposed to be his relative that he taught Karate to. Some place said that Olaf Simon learned Kung Fu fromher but I thing she didn't know anything other than what he taught her. She knocked herself out with a rising Karate block once. She was a fairly aggressive fighter and sparred with all the blackbelts from all over.

3. At one time in 1969 Olaf Simon introduced Ed Parker's Kenpo crests to be worn on all uniforms. I think it wasn't long after that that he got rid of them again. Ed Parker's marketing methods worked for Olaf Simon and for some of Olaf Simon's students but some of them didn't like the business tactics and left.

4. Money wise some European schools nothing to do with Olaf Simon charge $40,000 to complete the whole program. So I think all this isn't so much a money thing as it is an image and marketing method thing. I think Olaf Simon really started changing when his top and favorite student of Karate a guy by the name of Heinz turned on him (after Heinz met some Hong Kong Hung stylists who said Karate was garbage).

5. There are many people in society with mild or more severe forms of insanity. The film "a beautiful mind" comes to mind. Perhaps Olaf Simon has some of this?

6. I haven't had anything to do with Olaf Simon since 1969 and back then no one was getting ripped off. It was just straight Karate then with a little bit of Kung Fu or Kenpo hands thrown in. Some of his students were very top notch from those days (Dwight Sher, Lyndon Bateson, Ed Bateson, Randy Ness, I forget some of the names now).

7. The Kung Fu I saw him display on TV looked like Kenpo footwork and hands to me.

First of all, thank you all for your responses and advice.



YongChun, do you know of any names of tournaments or public demonstrations, that GM Simon was involved in, or any records that can be verified and confirme? How about his involvement with Margie Hilbig, Ed Parker, Ark Y. Wong or any other significant persons that will help determine his true history?

By the way, has anybody found anything about the “Tookien” temple. I couldn’t find anything on the net.

[couch]

Hey relaxed...e-mail me at talentskates@hotmail.com to discuss the Physics of Kung-Fu.

It's the real deal. White Tiger style from Doo Wai lineage.

Peace,
Couch

[couch]

How appropriate.

Anyways. If you read my post about not being able to see outside of the box, you would understand. You SHOULD still understand.

TKF is like a cult. It was my first Kung-Fu school that I ever trained at and they taught me wrong things.

Like how I can't share my knowledge with anyone, or tell anyone that I'm training with TKF. We are martial artists, and if we don't share the knowledge, then it all goes to waste. Even the five elders shared all their knowledge...that's why you'll find modified Wing Chun Dummy forms in White Tiger.

I put so much time and effort into that school...and now it's all gone. I have to de-program myself for my new school and style. I even have to breathe differently!

I went back because, honestly...I didn't take a hard enough look at other MA schools in Calgary. I tried a couple of schools, and they weren't what I wanted...so I went back to something familiar...TKF. I lied and said that I didn't go to any other schools, because my teacher said he couldn't let me back in if I did. I don't know of any other schools that behave this way.

Anyways...there's no "magical" answer that you will receive on why I went back. There's no response that you can pin on me. I came back because I didn't have all the answers about the bad things yet. I already had the bad taste in my mouth about how my money they needed out of my pocket.

So I learned the truth, and gave another look around Calgary a good shot...and wound up with some good schools.

Law of the fist...can I ask you a question?

Why did you name yourself Law Of The Fist...I think I know...I just want to hear it from you.

[252aCtUa|*]

MUHAHAHA!! LOTF.... i think its great how your posts get more and more childish as thease threads proceed, keep it up your good for a laugh :) hahaha.

[Stone Monkey]

surcumstances... just felt the need to repeat that...:D

[couch]

Without dissing me, as I've never met you, and won't be cussing you out...

tell the forum why you named yourself that.