Titles in CMA

[PJO]

I was wondering about all the different titles given to teachers and students in CMA. There are the more common ones like Sifu/Shifu, Si-Gung, etc. But I've also seen ones like Lao-Shih, Hsien-Sheng, Tsung-Shih, and so forth. When are these used and what do they mean? Are they specific to certain arts? My teacher is a Da Shifu or Ta Shih-fu. I haven't seen this one hardly at all. Why so many titles?

[ewallace]

You probably won't see much of Da Shifu. It is a modern version of the title "shifu". Kind of like Da Bulls and Da Bears.







Sorry. Couldn't resist that urge.

[PJO]

I don't think Da shifu is a modern title although it may be a modern spelling. I believe it is also written Ta shih-fu. Check out www.shaolin.co.za/MartialArtsCulture.html

[ewallace]

I was just breaking your balls PJO. I wasn't serious at all.

[TaoBoy]

Da (Dai) = big/eldest etc.
Sifu = master/teacher

Da Sifu = senior master - often used to indicate the senior master in a school that has more than one sifu.

Lao Shi = teacher - school teachers use this term but it can be used by MA instructors too.

Atleast that's my understanding...

As for the other you mentioned...no idea.

[dezhen2001]

TaoBoy: if i remember correctly, that's what i originally thought when PJO mentioned Da Shifu... big/great/senior teacher. But then he said that the Da came from Damo, the patriarch/founder of his shaolin style... so i dunno what that is about...:confused:

Lao Shi as far as i know is like a teacher. School teachers are also called this.

As for Hsien-Sheng and Tsung-Shih, i never heard of, sorry :) Maybe it's the romanisation or something, i dunno :)

david

[PJO]

The reference to the Da in da Shifu being related to Damo was my mistake. I had never seen the title Da Shifu and just assumed it had some connection to Damo. Now I know it means great teacher. I would like to know more however about the system of titles and rank. I know that most CMA titles have to do with family ie. Sifu=Father teacher and so on. What are some other titles?

[dezhen2001]

PJO: I'll let Wushu Chik get back to youon this as i'm sure she will...but you were pretty adamant until we all corrected you the first time round... is that why you've changed it? How come your Sifu doesn't know any other titles yet u call him Da Shifu? Doesn't make sense man...

hope your training is going well :)

david

[TaoBoy]

All CMA titles are generally 'family' terms. 'Si' means by relation. So, Si-Fu kinda means 'my master'.

More title, off the top of my head:

Si-Jo - founder
Si-Gung - grandmaster
Si-Fu - master (male)
Si-Mo - master (female)
Si-Sook - master's brother
Dai-Si-Heng - eldest brother
Dai-Si-Jie - eldest sister
Si-Heng - older brother
Si-Jie - older sister

Of cousrse there are more - search the web.

[Colin]

Hey PJO,
Your web site states:
"SHENG HUN is a triad, Wu Tang-based, Shaolin style of Kung Fu."

No disrespect, but could you explain what this means.

thanks
Colin......................

[dezhen2001]

that helps prove my point Colin...

"SHENG HUN is a triad, Wu Tang-based, Shaolin style of Kung Fu."

So then how come, with a style with so much Tradition, don't you even know these titles? makes no sense to me man,

:o
david

[rubthebuddha]

taoboy,

a little further on that:

sisok is your sifu's younger brother, where as sipak is your sifu's older brother.

heck, even sifus can have a sihing and sidai. ;)

and i'm not sure i'd accept the notion that sigung means grandmaster. i've seen enough people who would be technically a sigung (grandfather) but won't come near grandmaster status for quite some time.

[Fu-Pow]

Ok grasshoppers......:D ....I see some correct and not so correct info floating around here.....check out hungkuen.net......look under the traditions section. They have a whole list of terms and their meanings.

The things that is tricky about the Chinese language is that there are many ****phones. That is words that sound exactly alike but are represented by different characters. People that speak Chinese differentiate these ****phones by the context which the they are in. But if you don't speak Chinese you can't do that and the only way to clearly differentiate is to look at the character itself.

[Je Lei Sifu]

Si-Mo would be Sifu's wife. A female Sifu is also called Sifu.

Peace

Je Lei Sifu

[Brad]

We usually just call our teacher, laoshi, teacher, sifu, professor(he is one), and some sometimes call him master but usually not to his face. The majority of people I've come across call their teacher sifu no matter what his/her "official" title may be.

[Fu-Pow]

I can't believe h0m0phones was censored????

[BrentCarey]

I have always considered the practice of using a select few terms of a foreign language kind of strange. Some of my students call me "sifu", but I rarely use that term unless I want to distinguish myself as an instructor of Chinese martial arts without explaining that.

I make a point of not using Chinese terms for titles or to describe techniques except where no equivalent English term exists. I have been in classes where students were required to learn the Japanese word for all of the tecniques, count in Japanese, address each other with Japanese terms, etc. Seems pointless.

I am all for preserving tradition, but this seems artificial. I speak several foreign languages, but Chinese is not one of them. It seems odd to try to use a few Chinese labels - like I am trying to create a false sense of authenticity.

I am not knocking the practice, afterall, I suppose it's no stranger than ordering a burrito. I am just saying that I am not comfortable with it. It seems to get in the way of what is really important. Afterall, the Chinese don't learn the German words for the techniques they practice.

This reminds me of a story that would be funny if it wasn't so tragic. I am also a pilot and have heard this story around the hangar several times.

As you may know, English is the international language of aviation. International pilots and air traffic control are required to speak English in all radio communications. This ensures that all pilots can understand each other.

Several years ago a plane crashed in/near Japan because of a miscommunication between air traffic control and the pilot. Both spoke Japanese as their native language, but were trying to communicate in English.

While they were trying to get their points across, fumbling in English, the plane crashed. I don't recall the details, but I do remember that if they had just broken protocol and communicated in Japanese for a few seconds, the accident would have been prevented.


Best regards,

-Brent Carey

[BrentCarey]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
I can't believe h0m0phones was censored????
I noticed that. That's hilarious.

-Brent

[dezhen2001]

i think it is fine to use any title you want, but some such as Master and even Grandmaster if used by yourself tend to add to the ego more than anything else...

For me, as my teacher is Chinese, of course i call him Sifu. This is a term of respect (though respect is given no matter what i say), and also because Sifu has taught me a little about chinese culture. I guess you could say it's a traditional school. His teacher i always call Sigong, and above that Tai Sigong. Nothing ego grandising about that, as it's like my grandfather or great grandfather...though sometimes Grandmaster is used. That's more for communication with other MA (outside our school) and people not even training MA.

I don't see why using Sifu etc. is a ploy to make things more authentic or whatever, that's just the way it is... of course many people don't like it, and choose to be called Master, Teacher or even their first name...But to me our school is like a family and i don't call my father Mr. D or anything :D

david

[BrentCarey]

Originally posted by dezhen2001
I don't see why using Sifu etc. is a ploy to make things more authentic or whatever
No, my point was more in reference to learning countless names for stances, forms, etc. A personal title isn't so awkward because in the cases of Si-Gung and Si-Tai Gung, the Chinese title is more accurate than its English equivalent.

I learned Russian from a woman named Mrs. Voss. The Russian word for "Mrs" is "Gospozha" (roughly transliterated). She is always Gospozha Voss, even when we were speaking English to each other.

I agree with your point regarding the terms "Master" and "Grand Master". Some of my students choose to refer to me as "Master Carey", but not to me directly. There seems to be a lot of weight given to that word "master". I was recently criticized for calling myself "master", which of course I never have. Some of my students choose to address me as such, I presume in the "master/student" sense not in the "master of the universe" sense.

On the other hand, I called up an instructor in town to chat the other day, and he introduced himself as "Master Smith" (not his real name). I was polite to him, but was shaking my head at the same time. I almost introduced myself as "His Highness Lord Carey", but I resisted.

Best regards,

-Brent

[dezhen2001]

some good points,

well, i still don't see a problem with using the chinese names for techniques and stances etc. Tan Sau for example in wing chun (one explained) is much easier to keep saying than: palm up dispersing the energy hand all the time :D

Well, of course ot other people i would say Moy Sifu as my teacher, but to him it's just Sifu... the same with anything else Tse Sigong, Yip Tai Sigong etc. when talking about them, but just Sigong and Tai Sigong in person :) It's like saying Grandad instead of Grandad Smith all the time lol

I think other people would call you Master as being polite and showing respect for your skill, even your students maybe, but you don't need to do it yourself... especially when just having a chat! :D

just my opinion,
david

[Brad]

No, my point was more in reference to learning countless names for stances, forms, etc. A personal title isn't so awkward because in the cases of Si-Gung and Si-Tai Gung, the Chinese title is more accurate than its English equivalent.
I guess it depends on how close your ties are to Chinese teachers. Like our teacher speaks very little English at all so it's a good idea to learn the Chinese names. There's also still a lot of people who have close ties to Hong Kong, Taiwan, or mainland China. I think when you have this much contact with a Chinese speaking community it's a good idea to attempt to learn something about the language.

[Fu-Pow]

While I don't think that you necessarily need to know all the Chinese names for techniques it can definitely add another level to you understanding....so I guess I think it's worthwhile. As for the title Sifu.....what would be the equivalent expression in English? Sifu is composed of two characters one for teacher and one for father. I guess we could say teacher but then the other meaning is lost. The term Sifu means teacher but also it represents someone who is skilled in a trade and thought of highly in the community. I just don't think you could represent this with English because we don't have such a concise way to represent this in English.