Sup Ji Kau Dah Kuen

[Ray]

I just see the Sup Ji Kau Dah Kuen from Master Doc Fai Wong and is it totally different to our Hung Sing Sup Ji Kau Dah Kuen. Why???

[Hiram]

The DFW and Lee Koon Hung versions are very different.
No right or wrong. Just different lineages.

[Wah]

exactly...they look different. my school also teaches lee koon hung choy lee fut and now we are starting to learn from master chan yong fa also. and when he did some of the sets such as sui mui fa kuen or sup ji kau da kuen...they looked so different from the way lee koon hung taught us. but it still has the same purpose, its jus been interpreted differently by different teachers

[Ray]

Thanks for you reply, I know what you talking about the different lineage and the way your teacher learned the form and do the form. I have see the form from other Hung Sing brother from Lee Koon Hung are we performing like us some minor change. The form from DFW look great too!! Also the Siu Sup Ji is different too!! I have the same with my Hung Gar brother from the Tang Fong lineage. I going to give my THANKS TO ALL MY HUNG GAR AND CHOY LI FUT BROTHER IN THE WORLD, NO MATTER WHAT LINEAGE ARE, THEY ARE DO A GREAT JOB!!

[Fu-Pow]

I've never seen the DFW Sup Ji Kau Dah Kuen. From what I've heard DFW takes an almost Taiji-like approach to CLF. That could explain the big differences. I think that as long as the form follows good body mechanics and the Sifu can show a good application for the move it is probably OK. Forms are always open to interpretation.....my sifu, a student of LKH, does the forms slightly differently.

Fu-Pow
http://makskungfu.com/images/R7star.gif
"If you are talking about sport that is one thing. But when you are talking about combat-as it is-well then, baby, you'd better train every part of your body" - Bruce Lee

[Ray]

Your Sifu MHF does the forms like he learned, I don't know if he change his Siu Mui Fah Kuen the old one they do, uppercut, tree ta na, chi na, front kick or side kick and cross stance to the left with a ta na and them go to the elboe strike in the new one LKH, they go to the kick and them change to the back with a tana in horse stance and them to the elbow strike, finish with the fu jow to the groing.Did he change this part to the new one??? We did the old version.

[Fu-Pow]

Ray-

I'm not familiar with the names of the moves....

ta na?

chi na?

I think the part of the form you are talking about goes like this....

uppercut (in right forward bow stance), step back to dragon stance and clear the arm, step forward to dragon stance and clear the arm, kick, pow jong (upward palm in bow stance), shift to other bow stance, block down and back, elbow strike, then fu-jow. There are no horse stances in this series of moves.
:D

Fu-Pow
http://makskungfu.com/images/R7star.gif
"If you are talking about sport that is one thing. But when you are talking about combat-as it is-well then, baby, you'd better train every part of your body" - Bruce Lee

[CLFNole]

To Wah:

How are you associated to the Lee Koon Hung lineage? Who is your sifu and where is your school?

Peace.

[Jimbo]

In our school, our Sup Ji Kau Da comes from the Lau Bun lineage, although we have sets from 3 lineages...Chung Lem, Lau Bun, and recently from Chen Yong Fa as well. My sifu (Primicias) learned the Lau Bun lineage mostly via Howard Lee, DFW's si-hing.

The way DFW does his Sup Ji Kau Da is almost exactly the same as ours, but a few variations of moves make it a little bit different. It seems to me (just my personal observation) that DFW is more into his Taiji, because when he does his CLF, it's done more with a "Taiji-like expression" than "CLF expression." However, CLF does have relaxed power, or "fa jing" too...I am referring more to the flavor of his performance.

I have never seen Lee Koon Hung's version of this set, but IMO all CLF is one family and though the outward form may differ to varying degrees between individuals or schools, the ultimate goal is the same.
Jim

[Fu-Pow]

CLF does not really have "Fa-Jing" as we issue our power using the hip....internal arts in general do not use the hip to issue their power...that is why I am a little bit confused why DFW does his CLF like Taiji (or vice versa).....Choy Lay Fut uses a relaxed whipping type of motion, but it is just not the same thing as Fa Jing....no disrespect to DFW, I just don't understand his reasoning....

Fu-Pow
http://makskungfu.com/images/R7star.gif
"If you are talking about sport that is one thing. But when you are talking about combat-as it is-well then, baby, you'd better train every part of your body" - Bruce Lee

[Ray]

Hello Choy Li Fut brothers! I thinks that the Siu Mui Fah Kuen Doy Dar is it belong to LKH lineage only, I maybe wrong. I asking to a friend from the DFW lineage if they do the Siu Mui Fah Kuen Doy Dar and he say no. Does any one know if they practiced this form??

[Fu-Pow]

It is not listed in the forms in the back of his book. He does have a Sup Ji vs. Siu Mui Fa though. It is not Sup Ji Kah Dau though, just Sup Ji.

Fu-Pow
http://makskungfu.com/images/R7star.gif
"If you are talking about sport that is one thing. But when you are talking about combat-as it is-well then, baby, you'd better train every part of your body" - Bruce Lee

[alecM]

I am also a bit confused with where people get the idea that Choy Lee Fut uses fa jing. As Fu-Pow says, Choy Lee Fut uses a relaxed whipping type of motion.

Fear not the man who has learned one thousand kicks, fear the man who has practiced one kick a thousand times.

[Ben Gash]

Fu Pow, in taijiquan all movement comes through the waist. Indeed, mechanically Taijiquan is similar to most longarm systems, which is why it complements other systems so well.

"Weapons are the embodiments of fear,
the wise use them only when they have no choice"
Lao Tzu

[Ray]

As I know your are from Sifu Seng Au lineage, in 1999 your Sifu was in Puerto Rico and he was the judge in the ring for my Sifu in the form competition, also we come from the same Sifu Au's lineage.

[Wah]

My koon is associated to LKH through Bucksam Kong's Siu Lum Pai. My sifu, as Brother Ray has stated is Sifu Au, a student of Bucksam Kong and that is how we learnt CLF from LKH. But now we are taking out CLF to another step and learning it from GM Chan Yong Fa, the Jerng Mun or keeper of CLF. So we are learning the original forms too...and man it is different they way its moves are executed and performed. My sihings and sifus that went to Poland last year to the seminar with GM Chan said that when he did Sui Mui Fa Kuen...it wuz very different from the one that we know. :)

[Jimbo]

As I was taught, in Chinese martial arts, there are different categories of jing (or ging). In some systems it is often expressed in a harder manner, and in others it is softer. It involves issuing power with the entire body, for example, as in a simple straight punch, the body is relaxed, and the power begins from the foot, through the knees, hips, waist, back, through the arm to the fist. Of course, this could be expressed differently in CLF's shorter-hand combinations. One does NOT have to be practicing only Hsing-I, Taiji, or Baji in order to fa jing, although not everybody will call it that.

On moves such as Sow Choy, pow jong, kup choy, etc., there is a difference because they are circular follow-through strikes. But CLF also has many straight and angular strikes, and short strikes that require one to issue whole-body generation. The flavor of this power generation, and the emphasis, vary from school to school. But it is still the sudden, explosive use of power, fa jing (as opposed to fa li, which would mean to emphasize mostly on outer muscular force).

By the way, our school is in NO way connected to DFW, and as I mentioned earlier, our flavor and emphasis is very different from his.
Jim

[Ray]

Brother Wah do you learned the Chan Yong Fa Siu Mui Fah version or you only know is it different from our Siu Mui Fah Kuen??? Do you see the form??

Jimbo

In our school, our Sup Ji Kau Da comes from the Lau Bun lineage, although we have sets from 3 lineages...Chung Lem, Lau Bun, and recently from Chen Yong Fa as well. My sifu (Primicias) learned the Lau Bun lineage mostly via Howard Lee, DFW's si-hing.

The way DFW does his Sup Ji Kau Da is almost exactly the same as ours, but a few variations of moves make it a little bit different.

By the way, our school is in NO way connected to DFW, and as I mentioned earlier, our flavor and emphasis is very different from his.

--------------------------------------------------
Your Sup Ji Kau Dah and the DFW you said is almost the same, your Sifu learned from the same lineage, Master Lau Bun, but do you see the Master Chan Yong Fa or do you practiced the Master Chan Yong Fa Sup Ji Kau Dah Kuen?? If you practiced the Chan Yong Fa Sup Ji Kau Dah, how they look, more explosive in the way that you have to performing the set???

[Jimbo]

Ray:
Unfortunately, I have not yet seen Chan Yong Fa's version of Sup Ji Kau Da. The lineage with the main influence in our school is that of Chung Lem (a.k.a., John Lem), and second, Lau Bun via Howard Lee, plus some from Chan Yong Fa. The Chan Yong Fa version of Ng Ying Kuen (5 Animal form) that we learned is a CLF set and completely different in every way from DFW's, however. In fact, the only Sup Ji Kau Da I've seen is from Lau Bun's...I am curious to see them all.
Jim

[CLFNole]

To Wah:

Actually I have seen some of Kong Buck Sam's students CLF on hungkuen.net and to tell you the truth it is a bit different from the way I learned from Lee Koon Hung and continue to learn under his brother Li Siu Hung.

The KBS style is a bit more like hung gar, which is likely due to the fact that he would come Hong Kong from Hawaii, learn from Sifu and then return. He didn't follow sifu for a long time like the students at the Hong Kong school so I don't think he really picked up the CLF style to the degree of a person that only practices CLF.

He also followed Lee Koon Hung early in sifu's teaching career and over time sifu's CLF evolved into what many people see and teach today.

Peace.

[Fu-Pow]

I can vouch for what CLFNole is saying. I started out training under a student of Bucksam Kong's. The CLF he does looks very different than the CLF I learn from my current sifu MHF. I think the main reason is that Kong Sifu wanted to contrast the fluidity of CLF with the harder style of Hung Gar. Therefore, he took all the hard power out of CLF. The KBS CLF I've seen looks very fluid but lacks any hard power. LKH CLF is a combination of hard and soft.

Fu-Pow
http://makskungfu.com/images/R7star.gif
"If you are talking about sport that is one thing. But when you are talking about combat-as it is-well then, baby, you'd better train every part of your body" - Bruce Lee

[Ray]

CLFNole

He also followed Lee Koon Hung early in sifu's teaching career and over time sifu's CLF evolved into what many people see and teach today.
-------------------------------------------------
I have two different Ping Kuen doing by Joe Keit (one of the best), he did the same form but they do the two forms with different beging or opening, he did one in the 1998 and the other in 2000, Master Lee Koon Hung died in 1996 or 1997. I have about 7 Ping Kuen performing by different Sifus. Who is doing the original form?? Everyone try to do his personal performance. Who was wrong???

Fu Pow

I have a old film from your Sifu MHF performing Bing Bah Kwun in the 70's and believe me is it a little different as the form you practice today, by the years each one changed. Like you say about DFW's CLF (Taiji)

[Wah]

To Ray: Our koon did not learn sui mui fa kuen from Chan Yong Fa yet. Perhaps in the future, but right now we do know some sets from him and to add more to the list of what we know.

To CLFNole: True to what you are saying, the CLF that we practice at our koon is more hung gar influenced. We do the motions more harder like hung gar and thats one of the things we are starting to change. Since our koon started training with GM Chan, we are adapting our CLF sets to be executed more like how CLF should be done...with long arms fast swinging arms and a whole bunch of other stuff.

~peace~ :cool:

[CannonFist]

Why wouldn't CLF have fajing? I thought all traditional Chinese martial arts have jing albeit different styles have different jing. As mentioned, CLF has a relaxed whipping kind of motion and that is CLF unique way of manifesting jing. When you manifest/execute jing (or geng in the more common CLF or Cantonese terminology)you are doing fajing or faht ging in Cantonese.

[Sow Choy]

Here is my addition,

I am Joe Keit, Ray thanks for the compliment. The Ping Kuen I did at both those tournaments is the shorter version (the long version would either be too long for tournamnet or exhibition. Also I believe I added a section from Sup Gee with the uppercuts), one of my favorite parts.

I have seen some of Chan Yong Fa's students on video, and their movements seem to be similar to our Choy Lay Fut (Lee Koon Hung family). But the Hung Sing branch through Jeung Yim is where our Choy Lay Fut comes from which is where our forms and style may differ.

Recently in Singapore, there was the Hung Sing Kwoon's 36th Anniversary my sifu and some of his kung fu brothers attended: Masters Mak Hin Fai, Tat Wong, Sam Lee and some others. My sifu has the program book, Choy Lay Fut masters from all over the globe were in attendance.

My Sifu told me many of the masters over there never heard of Chan Yong Fa, my sifu was hoping to meet him. My sifu knows his sihing, I forgot his name. Doc Fai Wong was not there also, but alot of the top master were there. Anybody form the forum go to this event?

My sifu said many performed and were very good, and everyones form was slightly different also. But that the main pattern seemed to be the same. I have a feeling that when alot of the Masters began there schools in the old days, they might have changed things to seperate themselves from other schools. They were quite competitive in the old days as we all know.

I'm not sure about Doc Fai Wong's style and relation to our's. As far as changing the forms, Grandmaster Lee Koon Hung made slight changes, but nothing really major. I've seen some of the older Choy Lay Fut style on video, and all I can say is that the Choy Lay Fut today seems to be improving.

I have yet to see the other lineages Plum Flower, but I have seen Doc Fai Wong's Ping Kuen and Sup Gee, and a few other Lineage's perform Sup Gee like Master Sam Ng, check out his site at: ngfamilymartialarts.com

And some movements are different, but the main pattern seems to be the same. It's all good, no matter what family it still is Choy Lay Fut, (Sow Choy, Biu Jong, Chin La, Poon cue Chop Choy); ) and each Master that I have mentioned seems to have done a real good job.

Peace to all my Choy Lay Fut brothers

Joe Keit

:)

[Fu-Pow]

Thanks for the info Joe. My sifu just got back from Singapore...but he didn't tell us why he was going!!!!! I guess I didn't really ask. What an opportunity to meet all these CLF masters. Anyways, I think you are right about the slight variations in CLF, most of the moves are the same with small changes. However, I might add that when you start mixing in other styles (eg Taiji in the case of DFW or Hung Gar in the case of BSK) you can get into trouble. It is not that CLF is a "pure" style, but a lot (a bit of an understatement) of thought and effort has gone into how to execute these movements and the combination that they are executed in. If you are a Hung Ga master and you learn some CLF and you say hey this CLF move looks like this Hung Ga move, so you change the move....well, then you can get into trouble. Because Hung Ga has its own logic.

I am not saying that styles can't learn from each other, but you just have to be real careful.

Cannonfist-
As for the question of fa jing. The jing that I'm referring to is Chan Si Jin or "Silk Reeling Energy", which is the energy specific to Taiji. It can be used to recieve the opponent or "turned on" the other way and used in a striking manner. CLF does not have this. Mainly because CLF does emphasize "Peng Jing" or non-muscular interconnectedness. Which is required for silk reeling. Also, Taiji does not transfer energy through the hip (CLF does) because it breaks Peng. :eek:

Fu-Pow
http://makskungfu.com/images/R7star.gif
"If you are talking about sport that is one thing. But when you are talking about combat-as it is-well then, baby, you'd better train every part of your body" - Bruce Lee

[This message was edited by Fu-Pow on 07-11-01 at 04:07 PM.]

[Fu-Pow]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Mainly because CLF does emphasize "Peng Jing" or non-muscular interconnectedness. Which is required for silk reeling. [/quote]

Sorry, I meant mainly because CLF does NOT emphasize "Peng Jing."

Fu-Pow
http://makskungfu.com/images/R7star.gif
"If you are talking about sport that is one thing. But when you are talking about combat-as it is-well then, baby, you'd better train every part of your body" - Bruce Lee

[CannonFist]

OK if you are referring to Chan Si Jing, then CLF probably does not emphasise it. I think of Chan Si Jing as the coiling of the body's soft tissues to generate power, the hips is a major component in order to magnify this power. However not all Taiji emphasise the Chan Si Jing either, Yang style for example the jing is usually generated by the spine, coiling of the soft tissues is subtle.

[Fu-Pow]

Obviously, this thread has gotten a little bit off topic. I disagree with your statement above. Chan Si Jin IS Taiji. It is what makes Taiji...Taiji. Without it you are just doing Chinese folk dance. Whether it is Yang, Chen , Wu, Fu or whatever. It is just in Chen this power is more on the surface. The hips do not factor into this type of power generation, they serve more as a supporting structure. For a good explanation of this please see Josh_f's reply on the Internal/External thread in the Internal Arts forum. It is very enlightening.

Fu-Pow
http://makskungfu.com/images/R7star.gif
"If you are talking about sport that is one thing. But when you are talking about combat-as it is-well then, baby, you'd better train every part of your body" - Bruce Lee

[Ray]

Hello my CLF brothers

In the LKH lineage, we practiced any internal form or we practiced external forms only??

[Fu-Pow]

I think Hok Ying (crane form) and Drunken Form have internal aspects...I don't know what they are though. Maybe SiHing Keit could help us out. Chen Yong Fa's school has a lot of old school Shaolin internal stuff....

Fu-Pow
http://makskungfu.com/images/R7star.gif
"If you are talking about sport that is one thing. But when you are talking about combat-as it is-well then, baby, you'd better train every part of your body" - Bruce Lee

[Sow Choy]

As far as I know, Choy Lay Fut is an Internal/External style. You can't have one without the other.

I was taught that the internal aspect of our Choy Lay Fut is a unitary (hope I spelled it correctly) power, using the whole body. I have heard Wing Chun is similar in this aspect, where it's not a breathing exercise as much as knowing how to relax and focus your power.

There are no Qi Gong sets in our style, only when practicing Iron Palm as far as I know. The Drunken Form and Buddha Palm are considered more internal because of the connection needed between the lower body and upper body to generate full power.

That's why when I see someone demonstrating a form really tight and with short movement, it goes against what I have learnt, but of course everyone has learned differently. But it seems most style follow this guideline. To know about it is one thing, to feel it is when you understand that most styles have it.

Take care, good topic which could be a whole new thread!

Hey Ray, who is your sifu? I see you are in Puerto Rico. I would like to visit out there. Grandmaster Lily Lau opened a school out there, we might visit later.


L8R :cool:
Joe

[This message was edited by Joe Keit on 07-12-01 at 01:38 PM.]

[Fu-Pow]

Yeah, I dig where you are coming from on that Sow Choy. I noticed that I got in to this bad habit of tensing up during my forms. Trying to "force" the movements faster, instead of staying relaxed and using my hip to generate power. It looked OK for forms. However, when I tried some moves on the heavy bag it was really sad. When I relaxed and let my body do the work (instead of my arms and shoulders) I could really move that thing around (100 lb bag)....

Fu-Pow
http://makskungfu.com/images/R7star.gif
"If you are talking about sport that is one thing. But when you are talking about combat-as it is-well then, baby, you'd better train every part of your body" - Bruce Lee

[extrajoseph]

Hung Sing CLF has 4 Internal sets:

Lo Han Sup Ba Sou Kuen
Siu Lo Han Kuen
Da Lo Han Kuen
Mo Gik Kuen

TCM and Luk Yum (or Liuren - using the yin/yang, bagua and wuxing theories to do military strategy and divination including feng shui) are also part of the system, although not many people bother to learn them these days.

CLF is unique in the sense that the martial arts system is complete and the tradition is still alive and going strong after 5 - 6 generations. Thanks to all you dedicated students out there.

[Ray]

My Sifu is Nasson Ulanga from P.R. as I know the school of Ying Jow Pai is it from a student of Leong Shum ( hope I spelling good!!) Good friends of my teacher. They have tree associated schools. We try to do our best to promoting our CLF, hope sometime we can competing in the USA and can met all my CLF brothers.

[Ray]

Joe, I forget to tell you that you are WELCOME to P.R. and the same to all gung fu brothers, no matter what lineage or style!!!

[Sow Choy]

Ray,

Thanks for the warm welcome, I hope we can meet one day, the eagle claw school is run by Grandmaster Lily Lau not Leung Shum. They are from the same family, Leung Shum learned from Grandmaster Lau's famous father Lau Fat Mang.

Did your sifu study with Grandmaster Lee Koon Hung? If you ever want to come and train with his brother Master Li Siu Hung, you are welcome anytime, all are welcome. He is awesome! And a very funny guy.

Take Care!
Joe

http://www.leekoonhungkungfu.com/images/0009.jpg

[Fu-Pow]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Hung Sing CLF has 4 Internal sets:
Lo Han Sup Ba Sou Kuen
Siu Lo Han Kuen
Da Lo Han Kuen
Mo Gik Kuen

[/quote]

You are Wong Ha's student, right Joseph?

I have these forms on my big list of CLF forms...

Sup Ba Lohan Yik Gun Kuen- 18 Budda Tendon Changing from Doc Fai Wong

and Lohan Kuen- Monk Fist
from Paul Chan

I have two forms that could be Mo Gik Kuen- there is Man Jeet Kuen -10,000 Fists from Chan Yin Wah

or it could be....

Mouk Kit Kuen from Chan Family Choy Lay Fut

Or Mouk Kit Kuen and Man Jeet Kuen could be the same thing....I'm not sure...

To my knowledge LKH and his students don't teach these forms.....I don't think they are part of our branch of Hung-Sing.


BTW, if any CLF guys wants my big list of forms...email me privately and I'll send to you. I don't want to post it because of the troll factor....

Fu-Pow
http://makskungfu.com/images/R7star.gif
"If you are talking about sport that is one thing. But when you are talking about combat-as it is-well then, baby, you'd better train every part of your body" - Bruce Lee

[This message was edited by Fu-Pow on 07-13-01 at 11:56 AM.]

[This message was edited by Fu-Pow on 07-13-01 at 11:58 AM.]

[extrajoseph]

Fu Pow,

Wong Ha is my Sisuk. I have never heard of Sup Ba Lohan Yik Gun Kuen, DFW may have added the Yik Gun to the name. I don't think he knows the form, only the name.

Lohan Kuen is the same as Lohan Sup Ba Sou. I have never heard of Man Jeet Kuen in CLF, it is not the same as Mo Gik Kuen, which can also be written as Mouk Kit Kuen.

I have never seen anyone do Mo Gik Kuen apart from Chen Yong Fa. Even my sifu don't know that one, it is one of the most advanced form like the Sup Ying Kuen.

Could you send me your list to my email, thanking you in advance.

Joseph

[Ray]

Ok! In your opinion what is the hands, weapons and partners (weapons & hands) forms do you think is the best you do and why?? I don't do Ping Kuen is itn't in my level, but for me is the best!!

1-Ng Yin Kuen
2-Bin Bah Kwun
3-Siu Mu Fah Kuen Doy Dar
4-I don't know weapons vs. weapons in CLF yet!

Joe, I comment to my Sifu about the invitation to us to train in your school anytime if we are in Florida and he said that will be a honor for us to train with you, take a look to my Sifu webside at:

http://www.crosswinds.net/~ulangafuhokpai1

Fu Pow a have list about CLF form, also the name writen in chinese, I'll sending to you soon, if any CLF brother want the list just let me know, I'll forward a copy.

[YeutYatChapChoy]

Hey, nice to talk to ya:-)

The man chi (mun chi) is not a clf set.

The man chi kuen set is "1,000 character fist" form from Jow Ga. That is their core set, kind of like our sup chi kau dah. Anyway, my sifu said that he has heard of a bok sing group that also mixes in some jow ga sets to their cirriculum.

[Fu-Pow]

My best forms, I think are:

Hand Form- Sup Ji Kow Da Kuen (I wish Fu-Pow was my best one but I'm still making it better)
Short Weapon Form- Fu Mei Dan Do
Long Weapon- Fook Fu Dai Pah
Two man- Siu Mui Fah Chak Doy Da
Weapon vs Weapon- Don't know any yet either


:D

Fu-Pow
http://www.founder.net.my/clf/dom1.au

"If you are talking about sport that is one thing. But when you are talking about combat-as it is-well then, baby, you'd better train every part of your body" - Bruce Lee

[Fu-Pow]

Joseph- I would send you my list but I don't have your email and it is not listed on your profile. Please post it and I'll get that out to you....possibly with some other cool stuff.

Fu-Pow
http://www.founder.net.my/clf/dom1.au

"If you are talking about sport that is one thing. But when you are talking about combat-as it is-well then, baby, you'd better train every part of your body" - Bruce Lee

[CannonFist]

Yes, I agree that all Taiji have the silk coiling energy and that is why I said that this twisting of the soft tissue (Chan Si Jing) is subtle in the Yang style. The external actions in Yang style does not look like the "silk coiling" movements of Chen style, instead it is more like "silk pulling". However, the principle is the same. I also think that the waist actually magnifies the CHan Si Jing energy which is originally from the ground.

[Fu-Pow]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I think of Chan Si Jing as the coiling of the body's soft tissues to generate power, the hips is a major component in order to magnify this power. [/quote]

You said the hips...not the waist before. There is a big difference. Yes, the waist does amplify the power. Actually, according to the Taiji classics it controls it. However, in Taiji the hips do not factor very much into power generation (ie for striking). They are just a supporting structure. The pelvis and hips support the upper body in Taiji but they do not "twist" to generate power like in CLF. One way of power generation is not necessarily better than the other they are just different styles of Kung Fu.

I like CLF as a mid-long range striking art where you have a lot of room to move. And I like Taiji as a close range grappling type art where you don't have a lot of room to move. But I do not try to combine the arts together. I have to be very careful to change my frame of mind, when practicing one or the other. However, in terms of a fighting situation I hope to blur the lines a bit and become effective at all ranges.

Fu-Pow
http://www.founder.net.my/clf/dom1.au

"If you are talking about sport that is one thing. But when you are talking about combat-as it is-well then, baby, you'd better train every part of your body" - Bruce Lee

[extrajoseph]

I once saw Chen Yong Fa's HSG instructors practised a lot of Chin-na and close range grappling and take down techniques. They have a form called "Yum Yang Noi Lim Sup Ba Fa" or the "18 Methods of Yin/Yang Internal Joining Hands", which is not really a form but 18 ways of practising the techniques.

CLF uses a lot of long range techniques at the beginning but when it gets more advanced there is a lot of internal, "soft over come hard", and close range stuff. They are generally called Noi Lim Sou or Internal (unseen) Hands as distinct from Ngoi Lim Sou or External (seen) Hands.

If you look at the 10 Animal Forms or Sup Ying Kuen, there is one form per animal and one that joins all them together. You can't say the Monkey is long range or hard stuff, can you? What about the Deer? or the Elephan? I have seen Mo Gik Kuen and it is a bit like Chen style Taijiquan, with a lot of soft and coiling movements and "sticky hands".

When you look at history, this stuff about external v internal, soft v hard, long v short, Shaolin v Wudang, etc, was made up in the Qing period. Any style worth its salt would have the full range, some may start from the hard to the soft, some may start from the short to the long and others may be the other way around. In the end, it is hard and soft, long and short, inner and outer, yin and yang, etc. etc.

CLF is good at closing the gap, but we also have good techniques to finish it off when it gets too close for comfort.

Joseph

[iron_silk]

You seem pretty knowledgeable when it comes to Choy Lay Fut, have you ever consider doing so more research and writing an article to kungfu magazine?

Also I have interest in doing a CLF website about my sifu (Wong Ha). Although I am a beginner student, and actually been not too great of a student, I thought it would be nice to capture and record down as much info on him as possible for...greater viewing?

and since he is your sisuk that means your school and my sifu has relations? perhaps you would share some information to put up on a website as well? just a thought...and I realize that this doesn't have much to do with the topic BUT there was no real way to contact you! Have a good day!

[extrajoseph]

Iron Silk,

There are already quite a few great CLF websites, please take a look at Darryl Choy's link page:

http://www.choyleefut.com.au/update/links.asp

I don't think I could do any better. Thanks for the encouragement any way. I think you should do one for your sifu Wong Ha though, he is not well represented in cyber space.

Joseph

[Fu-Pow]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>When you look at history, this stuff about external v internal, soft v hard, long v short, Shaolin v Wudang, etc, was made up in the Qing period. Any style worth its salt would have the full range, some may start from the hard to the soft, some may start from the short to the long and others may be the other way around. In the end, it is hard and soft, long and short, inner and outer, yin and yang, etc. etc. [/quote]

This assumes that they all end up in the same place. If that was true all high level masters art would look very similar. Each art has its own specialty. And all though Choy Lay Fut balances soft and hard, it does not necessarily mean that it balances external and internal. I'm not saying that it doesn't balance them at some point...but it differs from Taiji in that you can crudely execute Choy Lay Fut without having an intimate knowledge of the internal structure. Taiji is martially worthless folk dance without the internal structure. That is why "internal" is stressed from day one. Just my thoughts on this, I'm by no means an expert in either of these arts.

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

[extrajoseph]

quote:
..."but it differs from Taiji in that you can crudely execute Choy Lay Fut without aving an intimate knowledge of the internal structure."

Fu-Pow,

You are absolutely right, we need to have an internal structure to do CLF well, that is why in the higher levels we have the Lohan and the 10 Animal Forms. Da Sup Ji Kuo Da Kuen is just a beginning.

In the end all martial arts are the same, just expressed in a different style and personality. Whether your name is Hung, Lau, Choy, Lee or Mok, you have two legs and two arms and a body and you have to obey by the physical laws, so there is only a limited number of things we could do. I have seen the best, but they are only human and they get old and they die eventually.

Joseph :cool:

[iron_silk]

Yeah I know there are many good CLF websites out there! And i have been to the specific one you mentioned, but it was really all these sites that made me want to do it even more.

Thanks for the encouragement! I was just thinking that since you would seem to have a tie (even if somewhat a weak one) to my sifu Wong Ha then it would be nice!

Well see what happens...

[Ray]

The 10 animals form is it a long form or is it a short one? Do you know the Lohan Fook Fu Kuen?? I have the change to see my sifu doing Sup Yin Kuen and the form in the dragon section is very internal and them he change to the snake part and the form change totally, fast and power. The 10 animal have the same purpose of the Sup Yin Kuen in Hung Gar or the form is performing in fast way only?

[extrajoseph]

Ray,

Sup Ying Kuen is a long form, it has 180 movements. Because it has to show the different characteristic and spirits of the 10 animals one after another, it has to have a fast and slow rhythm with soft and hard movement intermixed. It starts with the powerful "external" Tiger and finishes with the flowing and soft "internal" Dragon.

I don't know Lohan Fuk Fu Kuen (is it CLF?)and I am not familiar with the Hung Gar Sup Ying Kuen.

Joseph

[Fu-Pow]

Sup Ying sounds pretty bad ass....I know Ng Ying Kuen but I'm not sure if my lineage teaches Sup Ying. What are all the animals in it? I think you mentioned elephant, dragon, tiger, leopard, snake, crane, deer?, what else?

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

[extrajoseph]

Fu-Pow,
The other 4 animals are Horse. Lion, Elephant and Monkey. It is a pretty awsome form. Each animal has it own form as well, and they are incredible as well like the Monkey and the Dragon, each with its own specialty. There is a lot of charging and kicking in the Horse and the Elephant is heavy stuff.
Joseph :)

[illusionfist]

If you emit focused and refined power, you are doing fa jing. Every art has fa jing. Now the characteristics might be different, ala CLF using bing ging (whipping power) and say somebody using a lot of tiger elements that harness paan ging (whole body power). There are all sorts- pressing, lifting, rising, smashing, etc.

[Ray]

The Hung Gar Sup Yin Kuen is a long form the begining of the form is the dragon it is the internal section of the form next you go to the snake, leopard, tiger, crane and the five elements fire, earth, water, metal and wood. The Lohan Fook Fu Kuen, yes is a CLF form.

[extrajoseph]

Ray,

Firstly thanks for sending me the list of form, I think it comes from Lee Koon Hung's old magazine from Hong Kong many years ago.

My apology, I should have said I have not heard of Lohan Fook Fu Kuen in Great Sage Hung Sing CLF, it may be in other schools. From the list Fu Pow sent me (thanks F-P) there are a number of form I have not heard of either, like Seng Au Mong Kuen (Cow looks to western moon?) and Lohan Chut Tong Kuen (Monk Exiting Cave). So I will plead ignorance in this case.

Joseph

[Ray]

As I know the Lohan Fook Fu Kuen come from the Doc Fai Wong lineage, but I don't know from whom of his teachers in CLF, is a short form. Also I have a old film about the Fu Ying Kuen (CLF) they have a different opening in the begining. In your opinion what is the CLF form need more endurance or stamina?? The same question to my others CLF brothers

[Jimbo]

I do know that, although Sup Ji Kau Da is the longest form we have (at least as far as I've gotten), I find the Fu Ying Kuen (Tiger form) can be more tiring.

It seems, even though I vary the speed throughout like other sets, I can sort of "pace" myself a bit in Sup Ji Kau Da, even though I still burn lots of energy doing it. I cannot pace myself on sets such as Fu Ying Kuen or Hung Yen Bot Gwa (Bear Man Ba Gua) because the way they're designed to be performed.
Jim

[extrajoseph]

Ray,

We can achieve speed with stamina and endurance in CLF forms if we pay attention to our breathing and our rhythm of movement. If we cannot pace ourselves and get into a huff and a puff before the form is finished, then we have not practised enough to get into the spirit of the set.

Doing a form is like playing a piece of music, there is a break between 2 series of the movements. The beginner forms have shorter series while the more advanced forms have longer and more complicated routine. Slow down a little in between to catch our breath and to compose ourselves. We will not look fast when there are no slower transitional movements. We will not look high if we don't come down low and we can't open wide if we don't close up tight first and so forth. The rhythm of the form should go from fast to slow to fast again like a piece of good classical music. That way we won't get tired too quickly either.

Pay attention to our breathing. Breathe in during the transition movements and breathe out with an explosive breath when attacking. Do not hold our breath or keep our body stiff at any time. Some forms require a heavier expression like the Fu Ying Kuen, while others are much lighter like Siu Mui Fa Kuen, so use not only our body but also our breathing and our mind intent to achieve the correct result.

IMO, Speed, accuracy, stamina and endurance are all needed to do a CLF form well. Can't have one without the other.

Joseph

[Ray]

Thanks for the advice!!I don't know if you practiced the Mui Fah Sheong Loong Dou. Do you know from whom come this form ?? From master Lee o master Choy?? Does anyone know??

[extrajoseph]

Ray,

I have not heard of Mui Fa Sheong Loong Dou in Great Sage Hung Sing. I translate the name literally as “Plum Blossom Double Dragon Broadsword”. Sheong Loong means Double Dragon and Sheong Dou means Double Broadsword (using a pair of broadswords with both hands at the same time). So I think you are talking about a double broadsword form with movements like two dragons playing with each other.

If I am right, then there are four Plum Blossom double broadsword forms in our school:

1) Siu Mui Fa Sheong Dou (Small Plum Blossom Double Broadsword).
2) Sup Ji Mui Fa Sheong Dou (Plum Blossom Double Broadsword in Cross Form).
3) Chiat Sing Mui Fa Shoeng Dou (Seven Stars Plum Blossom Double Broadsword).
4) Lin Wan Mui Fa Sheong Dou (Interlocking and Continuous Plum Blossom Double Broadsword).

They get progressively more advanced from 1 to 4 and I would imagine your Mui Fa Sheong Loong Dou would be part of this group of Mui Fa Double Broadsword sets.

It is hard to tell whether the “sheong dou” forms came from Lee or Choy. Chan Heung studied for a much longer time with Choy Fook than Lee Yau-Shan but Lee was well known for his broadsword skills and Choy for his Gwan (staff) and Gim (double edge sword). Whatever we say would be a projection of history, the truth is that we really don’t know except that it all came down through the Shaolin Temple. That we know for sure, otherwise we would not have used the name Fut (Buddha) in CLF.

Joseph