My friend's Aikido class

[Mannek]

I've got a friend and she's just started taking classes at an Aikido school. Admittedly I dont know much about Aikido other than some basics (become one with the matt ;) ) but some of the things she told me sort of alarmed me.

Her first class, her instructor is explaining the basic abstract concept of what she and the rest of the class will learn to do. Something to the effect of Controlling your own "energy" to a great degree, and when that degree is great enough, youll be able to control someone else's "energy" . I dont have a problem with this statement. Its an abstract way to say that you'll learn to manipulate your opponent after you gain a degree of physical awareness.

However, he didnt stop there, and started telling her that once you get good enough, you dont even have to touch someone to control them. He then gives an example from his master, where apparently he could sense anyone attacking him, andwith a wave of his hand he could stop them (without actual contact) . My friend is really gullible and ate this right up, which annoys me becasue i quesiton everything.

Anyway, my point is to ask what you all think of this. Is this a normal Aikido thing or should she be considering something else? I have trouble taking anyone too seriously when they make claims to doing supernatural things, and in addition strongly persuading to his students that they can do this too with time, hes in a way "hypnotising" anyone who is open to suggestion. So that when he demonstrates the technique, the people sort of make it happen.

Or am i just concerned over something thats really not important?

[HuangKaiVun]

If your friend were talking to ME, I'd say something like "I have over 20 years in the martial arts and NEVER have I met anybody who had Jedi telekinesis powers".

I'd also say "Who is this great master? I want to go and have him demonstrate his powers on ME."

Make me into a believer, this master hopefully will.

[Mannek]

I debated it with her (shes not much for debate) and she ended up telling me "I just beleive people can do things like that"

I'm sure if I asked him to demonstrate on me he'd tell me he had nothing to prove. Some of this stuff sounds cultish, which is why Im asking your opinions. Do you think she ought to be looking elsewhere for quality instructing? I'm basing my judgement of the teacher on his bringing out Jedi Mind Trick stuff the first day. Not that Id actually be able to convince her *frown*

I'm very interested in information concerning studies of these phenomenon. I read the one about the guy who said he coul move people through walls, but failed to do so in a double blind test. Are there more studies any of you an refer me to that challenge the credability of these sorts of tricks?

[uncle]

You need to check out the "Weird Doe" thread. This guy will make much more sense then.

[rogue]

I'd also say "Who is this great master? I want to go and have him demonstrate his powers on ME."

I made you type that HKV!:D

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

maybe your friend was just exagerating what the teacher said a little to make herself feel good in front of you. i hope so. good aikido can look like a simple wave of a hand, that i have seen, but it's just excellent technique (and perhaps a cooperative attacker).

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

. . . and of course physical contact.

[SDriver]

I can stop anyone attacking me with a wave of my hand, provided that a) you're not too picky about causation, and b) it is the wave of my hand from a swiftly departing automobile.

And I never heard any Jedi stuff when I was in aikido. Granted, I wasn't in that long, so maybe Yoda was hiding in the back.

[greendragon]

perhaps there was a communication breakdown. you can wave your hand and the attack will miss you. This is an Aikido technique often demonstrated where distraction creates a temporary blind spot in the attacker. If there is some sort of claim of no touch striking, which i doubt, blame the teacher not Aikido.

[KC Elbows]

Burmese Kalari Doe has such techniques in their "Gestalt Fist" form, though none of you are of sufficient spiritual awareness to even look at that form without the energy tearing at your eyes like monkeys hungry for brain.

For a nominal fee, I'll recommend you to the Esteemed Gentleman Scholar of Kalari Doe. He might teach you.

Aikido is but a shadow of the Grandmother of all martial arts, Burmese Kalari Doe.

[Repulsive Monkey]

There is the possibility that the instructor was speaking maybe of the founder of Aikido, Moriehei Usheba. Unfortunately I feel you are gullible for standing on the sidelines and saying thats impossible, thats rubbish etc. without getting evidience for its claims. I'm not overtly leaning in either direction in this thread but to be authorative in the statements you make, would denote that you yourself have trained in Aikido enough to know and not guess or opinionate as to whether these claims are real or not.
If it was Master Usheba then all I can say is that he was a genuine Master of his art.

By the way when your friend said that she thought that these things could be possible, I commend her for her open mindedness and equaminity even though she was without evidence.

[HuangKaiVun]

I have heard of the no-touch throw, though I have not ever seen it nor done it nor had it done to me.

Bishop Kensho Furuya talks about trying to tackle one of his masters and suddenly getting thrown even though the master never touched him. Then he talked about how he eventually mastered that technique himself - and Kensho Furuya doesn't strike me as the type of guy who lies.

I can see how if one aligns his body properly and moves at the right moment, he can sort of "matador" his opponent into throwing HIMSELF. I've done that, not in the ring but on the basketball court. Sometimes when I chase a defender off a pick, the guy setting the screen will try to knock me down. I see this coming and get out of the way at the very last second, sending my opponent stumbling and sometimes even hitting his OWN teammate!

On the other hand, your friend is clearly content with her school and what they're telling her. It's out of your hands now, Mannek.


rogue, you make me do all sorts of stuff!

[Mannek]

Repulsive Monkey said:

Unfortunately I feel you are gullible for standing on the sidelines and saying thats impossible, thats rubbish etc. without getting evidience for its claims.

If you scroll up I asked for data that challenged the credability of such events. I mentioned I had already read one double blind test which had data supporting that empty force failed to work under a tested circumstance.

Please, give me some documented evidence that people can use mystical energy to move/stop someone without toughing them. And I don't mean some 300 lb bodybuilder getting ready to puch someone and them moving back "without being touched" :D

I find it interesting that I am gullible for being incredulous. I would only like something that proves without a doubt it is possible. I think it's fair to say occum's razor applies here. On one hand you have someone doing feats with a mystical unexplainable energy, and on the other they could be simply doing a trick, which is a valid position, as there is anotehr case in which this argument is supported by data.

Now, like I said I don't know aikido and i dont presume to be knowlegdeable about its techniques. I recognize it might have been exaggerated by my friend, so I suppose this goes with a grain of salt. I only asked out of the best interest for my friend.

She did say her teacher did not claim that he could do these things, so perhaps he was referring to the great master that was mentioned later. He did claim that he could control bodily organs, and I assume this includes touching them. I'd like to know what you aikido guys think about this as well.

Finally, I am not any sort of authority on this, but just concerned for my friend. Why is it neccessary to beleive claims people make just becasue they tell you? Being open minded is saying that is possible but ive not seen any evidence to support it and have seen some evidence that goes against a similer thing. Being gullible is accepting what is said without quesiton and beleiving it.

Is there no value in asking questions?

[Mannek]

I wanted to make it clear that I wasn't blaming Aikido at all. I'm positive it is an effective art. Perhaps the teacher was referring to waving the hand as a distraction. I wasn't there so I cant draw any definite conclusions.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i with you mannek ... i don't understand how someone can confuse being reasonable with gullible.

[Black Jack]

The dudes a wanker and uses these mystic elements to help bring in the all-mighty dollar.

Take naive students and covent them with nerolinguistic trick words like "secrets" which are really a coverup for the word "lie" and in comes more money.

[Ford Prefect]

Sounds like the "Ki Society" a branch of Aikido that's a bit cultish with their belief in the ever-powerful ki. Find out what organization they are affiliated with.

[Mannek]

Do they have a website I could look at? Ill run a quick search here/look for replies. They may have a list of affiliated schools if so. I do beleive my friend mentioned Ki, which is their version of "qi" right? Thanks, ill look into that.

Edit: I found the site quickly, and there does not appear to be one in the area.

[Octavius]

Most Aikido schools in the US are usually affiliated with either Aikikkai (what's called Hombu dojo), Yonshinkan (altho you see this more in Europe than US) and Shin-shin Toitsu (excuse my sp., also called the ki-Society). There's Iwama, but not often found in teh US. Basically they are different variations and takes on Ueshiba's Aikido. Aikikkai is the one that Ueshiba himself was the head of - altho most of the running and organizaing of the group was done by his son, Kisshomaru. They are by far the largest and most..."middle of the road" version of Aikido. lots of variations within the group, depending on the teacher, so you can have multiple schools all be part of Aikikkai but one teacher will emphasize techniques a bit more robustly than another who may be more esoteric and spiritual than another who may like weapons, etc. Aikikkai reflects Ueshiba's Aikido from the post-WW2 years, so the techniques and movements will be a little softer, larger, etc. Yoshinkan is a group started by Gozo Shioda, a disciple of Ueshiba who had formed his group prior to WW2-end. Surprisingly YS and AK groups get along well and they cross polinate. Yoshinkan reflects Ueshiba's pre-war years and the techniques are more robust and direct, reflecting the vitality of Ueshiba himself during those years as well as the students who trained - often afterwards going into the army to fight. The Tokyo Police have incorporated Yoshinkan methodologies into their training. Ki-Society was created in the 60's or 70's by Tohei, one of Ueshiba's golden disciples and who for a while lead the Aikikkai. They place a greater emphasis on developing and cultivating thier Ki (or Chi for you non-Japanese speakers), before or along side developing their martial skills. They see aikido more as a venue to cultuivate their ki that also happens to kick ass, instead of an art that kicks ass that also cultivates the ki. Iwama reflects Ueshiba's "retirement" years when he left Tokyo and the Aikikai int eh hands of his son and went to...Iwama prefecture and his farm to further his own study. The main head of it used to be Masahiro Saito (I think) but he recenbtly passed away. I am not too sure about their technical distincitveness, but they do emphasize weapon work a good deal. Try:

aikido.com
aikidojournal.com
aikidoonline.com
aikiweb.com

for furhter info.

[dezhen2001]

some good information there about the different variations of aikido around today :)

good luck,
david

[Mannek]

I appreciate you taking the time to explain some things and i intend to find out a little more about it.

Apparently he hasnt been talking about the Ki stuff lately and has focussed on techniques, which my friend is good at, so it seems well for the most part.

[Spirit Writer]

The teacher was defending against the attacks on his silly claims ... and then waving his students good bye as they walked out the door.

Apparantly at least one stayed