A Fools Path of enlightenment

[gazza99]

Many people start out there martial art carreers in the A-typical Tae Kwon Joke, or Karate-dope dojo (see yellow pages). Then after a few years they realize that there must be more, and that perhaps what they are learning is crap. So they do some research and find out about the mystical Neijia arts. The Chi, the fluidity, the serentity.

So they join the local David Caradine tree-hugging, hippie, "its all about yeilding and the cosmos" type crowd. They may learn a few applications sure, but no jin is involved or any realistic training. There is nothing worse than asking a tajiquan teacher if they do applications then they reply "of course". Then the follow up question is "ARe you familiar with the term jing? IE..fa-jing, peng jin, zuan jin, ting jin, can si jin, etc." they tell me no. I want to come through the phone and choke them, as they have no buisiness teaching tai chi, they should go back to yoga and a good joint, and then perhaps learn how to pronounce yAng correctly before pretending to know about the internal arts.

I truly believe that if you cannot defend yourself with only your Taijiquan then you have no buisiness teaching it. Speculation need not apply, real exp. only..( I expect hate mail on this one...)

There is another path some take, after the bad TKJ or Karate-dope experience they find boxing, MT, and BJJ. Finnnally something they can accually use in a real fight!!!! However some of them then dismiss traditional arts completely and fail to see there is more possible depth of skill in these arts. The learning curve may be different, but it goes up much higher. But after all I dont blame them, the fact that a great majority of traditionalists cant fight is a hard rep to beat.

and so endeth the RANT and generalizations....

Gary

[Serpent]

You feel better now?

[TaoBoy]

Rant away, I say.

However, in this day it ain't gonna make a hell of difference. Everyone's gonna have their opinions whether they are based on fact or perception or what their best friend's uncle thinks.

What we all have remember is that people have their own reasons for studying the martial arts and therefore are attracted to different styles, schools, teachers. So, whilst you and I might not want to go down the tree-hugging hippy path it may be exactly what someone else wants. Good luck to them. As long as they aren't backing me up when the apocolypse arrives, I'll be happy.

You've got some good points in your post that are sure to cause many a reply....let the fun begin!

[Fred Sanford]

traditional arts are worthless. I had no idea tai chi was even a martial art. BJJ is the real street lethal.

[Serpent]

So that just makes it obvious how ignorant you are.

Well done.

[wushu chik]

Originally posted by gazza99
Blah blah blah.....So they join the local David Caradine tree-hugging, hippie, "its all about yeilding and the cosmos" type crowd. They may learn a few applications sure, but no jin is involved or any realistic training. There is nothing worse than asking a tajiquan teacher if they do applications then they reply "of course". Then the follow up question is "ARe you familiar with the term jing? IE..fa-jing, peng jin, zuan jin, ting jin, can si jin, etc." they tell me no. I want to come through the phone and choke them, as they have no buisiness teaching tai chi, they should go back to yoga and a good joint, and then perhaps learn how to pronounce yAng correctly before pretending to know about the internal arts.

I truly believe that if you cannot defend yourself with only your Taijiquan then you have no buisiness teaching it. Speculation need not apply, real exp. only..( I expect hate mail on this one...)

Blah blah blah some more.....

Gary

Gary,
You KNOW that the pot smoking, peace loving hippies that teach the "health aspect" in the park are RIGHT ON. They are the ONLY ONES that are doing it right. AND, I know that they've made up their OWN tai chi form while dropping acid on a FEW occasions... it's the only way to go. And, if you can't see that THEY are right...then, there's something wrong with you.

~Wen~

[Serpent]

Hey Wen, don't bogart! Pass it over here!

[BrentCarey]

Gary,

Amen brother. Read my post under the topic "Long Fist Sparring". I just got done writing on a similar subject. I won't bother repeating it here, but you are absolutely right, provided you are not discounting the physical and mental health benefits of traditional arts.

-Brent

[wushu chik]

Hey Brent...
You have a brown stuff on your nose. You should wipe it off!! :D

~Wen~

[rubthebuddha]

i think the big guy is right, but taoboy has hit a nail squarely on the head.

think that tree hugging hippie crap is real taiqi? sorry, it's not, and the stuff you refer to is the same **** taught down to the bluehairs at the senior center.

think your taiqi can do some damage? good for you. just make darn sure it's there when the drunken captain testosterone gets mad at you for being too short/fat/tall/skinny/ugly/pretty/hairy/shaven/etc.

now, if you know that your taiqi is golden, and you understant that, through understanding violence, you have found a greater way to peace and fulfillment, and still have better blood pressure than the geriatrics down at the center, then i think i owe you a high five.

as far as bjj? find me some bjj that works against people twice my size (i'm a buck-seventy) that come at me in pairs and choose to attack me in a dense parking lot.

don't get me wrong -- bjj is one of the few martial arts i'm not sure i'd be able to defend myself against (as far as time spent in the study). but the concepts of rolling with someone while leaving myself exposed for his friends or for the curb or the broken bottle on the ground don't sit well with me.

[Repulsive Monkey]

I love that comment about how someone didn't even know that Taiji was a martial art and that BJJ was street lethal. Oh how ignorance abounds around this forum.

[HuangKaiVun]

Negativity without productivity is useless.

So what do you propose as a SOLUTION, gazza99?

What have YOU done to get around this miasma of problems?

[Merryprankster]

The learning curve may be different, but it goes up much higher.

???

What's that I smell? Ah--I seem to have stepped into a steaming pile of crap.

[Merryprankster]

as far as bjj? find me some bjj that works against people twice my size (i'm a buck-seventy) that come at me in pairs and choose to attack me in a dense parking lot.

Find me some anything 'cept gun fu or track fu that really works well for this.


Nice try though, and thanks for playing our game!



BTW, if you are getting in fights with people who are 340 lbs and travel in packs, STOP fighting NFL Linemen. It's just not smart.

[BrentCarey]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
Negativity without productivity is useless.
So what do you propose as a SOLUTION, gazza99?
What have YOU done to get around this miasma of problems?

It's not clear to me. Is reproaching Gary and his assertion "negativity" or "productivity"?

-Brent

[HuangKaiVun]

How could it be any CLEARER, Brent Carey???

I'm trying to steer discussion toward a SOLUTION toward this problem that our original poster feels is so pervasive in the martial arts.

Anybody can rant. Not everybody can SOLVE.

[guohuen]

Short of using applied physical psycology on him, what do you do about someone that claims to have studied under C.C. Chen that calls themself "Little Tree" and obviously has no Indian blood that stares at themselves in the mirror while doing about the poorest form I have ever seen using nothing but li while teaching a class of supposed Yang style to a group of earnest elderly ladies at a Lebanon College class?

[HuangKaiVun]

How does the concept of a supposedly fake Tai Chi instructor teaching a class of elderly ladies negatively affect your kung fu practice, guohuen?

If those elderly ladies are getting a bit of exercise and enjoying their training by having him lead them through moves, what will we accomplish by blowing up that guy's class?

As long as I get to practice my kung fu and I know that there are REAL Tai Chi masters like Chen Xiaowang and Yang Shao Jung passing on the instruction, I couldn't care less what a self-anointed CC Chen disciple who's making a bunch of elderly ladies smile is doing in Lebanon College!

[ewallace]

They (old ladies) should be informed that they are in fact practicing Tai Chibo. This way they will not alarm the neighbors into thinking they are a bunch of rogue martial killers because they know tai chi. You know how word travels among the old folks.

[dnc101]

I just went and read the Long Fist post that Brent referenced earlier. Execellent! Well worth the trouble to jump over and read it. I don't do Long Fist, but I found a lot of concepts there that cross over to my training. Good job, Mr Carey.

[guohuen]

Precisely why I walked away and said nothing until now.

[dnc101]

Originally posted by gazza99
So they join the local David Caradine tree-hugging, hippie, "its all about yeilding and the cosmos" type crowd. Gary

You do realize that you've just guaranteed that sorry KF Hippie Rant post at least three more pages and another week or two at the top of the chart on this forum?

As for other styles and others reasons for doing what they do, we all find our own path. And if a lot of those people hadn't started in TKD or something else, they may never have graduated to what you consider superior arts. I can agree that most of us move on with our training to something that suits us better, or add to our base to personalize it. But I don't disrespect the traditionalist who won't even look at anything different. Nor do I dislike the hippie type, as long as he's not hugging the tree I want to cut down. I just don't let either of them determine what I do. So as long as they aren't trying to pass laws that say you have to study TKD and/or BJJ, let them bury their heads in the sand, hug a Russian Olive tree (ouch), or just plain enjoy what they do. And when they decide to go further in the martial arts, maybe then you can step in and offer guidance.

[gazza99]

"Negativity without productivity is useless.
So what do you propose as a SOLUTION, gazza99?
What have YOU done to get around this miasma of problems?"

Ok that was the obvious reason for this thread was a rant/discussion, some have provided this answer to some extent. But I will share my ideas since I started it.

1. Honesty-....

There is a number of TKD schools everywhere, and few I can think of with a 10 mile radius of me with big huge SELF-DEFENSE signs up. However these people cannot defend themselfs after many years and many more black belts. One guy I ran into at the martial arts supply place in town (century) was buying all sorts of gear TKD shirts etc. He saw my shirts (I was picking them up) and inquired about my school. I found out he signed a year contract for private TKD lessons at like 100 bucks an hour becuase the instructor told him it was an awesome self-defense art. They guy had no interest in sport at all. But the teachers main focus at the school was tournaments! He bragged about the instructors trophies! He had no clue about any other arts in the area, I gave him a quick demo on a Bag there and he wanted to get privates from me as well! I could use the money, but Im not about to un-train the guy after every TKD session. So I declined and told him to find me when his contract was up and Id consider it. This is just a snap shot of a 10 mile radius! There are many worse examples.

2. Integrity of the Art-

Taijiquan is known as a health dance offered with yoga and salad shooters. Why? Becuase its an easy target market for people with little skill and big dollar signs in there eyes. Older people,or younger "counterculture" people. Its all too easy, and this has caused the availabiity of the real art of taijiquan to be severely injured, as well as the supply/demand for it. Im sure its that way for other arts, how would the Karate or hard style folks feel if people just taught all stances and kata without any real techniques, principle of movement, applications, reality drills, sensitivity drills..etc.? They would feel like nothing...wait most Karate and Hard style schools qualify for the above definition. I supose they can always fall back on the obvious heath benifits of doing excersize in general (expensive workout), and the mental benifits of concentration, and of course coordination. But then again they dont just sell it as that..see #1 again. At least Billy Blanksis up front about it.

So what do we do about it?
1. Honesty-we be honest with ourselves first, then we share our views freely with the community. Go to the school and confront the instructor about the "self-defense" sign i n The window, do it politely and ask real questions that you know he will not be able to answer, then present better answers (in front of the students) in a nice respectfull manner. Then Tell him you dont feel he represents your art well, and you would like to know who certified him to teach self-defense. If he doesnt do your art it may be crossing the line a bit, but this is another discussion. The MA community has lost its credibility in this departement, we need to get it back.

2. Art integrity-If you teach Taijiquan for example and cannot use it in alone in a fight then you should not be teaching any aspect of the art without informing your students you are not a fully qualified Taijiquan instructor, and that you only know half of the art at best. Ill let others debate on how to preseve the integrity of other arts as Im not as aware of the problems due to obvious Bias.

[Fred Sanford]

Taichi is a martial art? when did this happen?

[PJO]

In my experience most people who go into taichi are not looking for self defence. They are interested more in the meditative and health benefits. If a teacher only focuses on these aspects is he a fraud?

[Fred Sanford]

yeah, bear style can beat taichi any day of the week.

[Black Jack]

My girlfriend says I have a cool looking scrotum. Sometimes I put a minature leather biker jacket on him and make it talk jive.

[BrentCarey]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
I'm trying to steer discussion toward a SOLUTION toward this problem that our original poster feels is so pervasive in the martial arts.

Anybody can rant. Not everybody can SOLVE.
Yes, but apparently you missed the irony of the nature of your last two posts.

They remind me of a "Dear Abby" letter from back in the '70s. Somebody wrote in something to the effect of:

Dear Abby,

I think anyone that writes to you is either emotionally insecure or just plain stupid.

... to which she responded:

Which are you?

Look, I'm not trying to start a war. I'm just having a bit of a laugh over the irony.

-Brent

[HuangKaiVun]

True. I had a bit of a laugh too.

And you can start a war if you want. Despite your lack of respect for me, I have a lot of respect for YOU and will TRY to conduct myself in that way.

Besides, even you cannot argue that I tried to contribute MY end of positivity in this thread (see my above posts).

[HuangKaiVun]

Nice answer, gazza99.

But who's going to ENFORCE all this?

There are as many different levels of taijiquan as there are taijiquan practitioners. Each has varying levels of applicability, from no applicability up to the highest level? Where would a person (or even governing body) draw the line saying "Fake" and "Not fake"?

That TKD guy you ran into might not have been getting it right by your standard, but maybe he was by his teacher's. The bottom line is that he AGREED TO IT and thus that's on HIM. Somehow YOU didn't get suckered into this type of teaching. If only that potential student of yours had your vision . . .

Don't forget that almost 100 years ago, Yang Cheng Fu radically altered the Yang form in order to make it more applicable to the old and infirm as a "health dance". And Yang was one of the toughest fighters there was.

And contrary to what you think, a lot of Tai Chi schools DO sell themselves as stress relief and exercise. I don't see any problem with that, as I've done that stuff myself and gained tremendous benefit. Just because it's "Tai Chi" or even "kung fu" doesn't mean fighting HAS to be part of the curriculum.

Given that so few people have received authenticated lineage from the original Yang and Chen and Wu and Sun branches of taijiquan, you'd have to get rid of about 99.999999% of the traditional guys out there practicing the art for combat. Should suddenly all the "Tai Chi" schools just close up and stop helping their students just because they're not "fully qualified?"

That's why I don't worry about the variety in Tai Chi, legitimate or illegitimate. In fact, there's a place for schools that sell ridiculous dreams to those who are willing to pay for them. YOU won't go to them gazza99, but there are plenty of people who would. What's the harm in letting them indulge in their fantasies?

You clearly know your kung fu, gazza99. That alone prevents you from being "had" by unscrupulous (or even scrupulous) instructors.

[gazza99]

Good points! Let me add something to your comments and tell you why I understand your point of view I respectfully disagree in part.

"from no applicability up to the highest level? Where would a person (or even governing body) draw the line saying "Fake" and "Not fake"? "

There should not be a governing body, just basic honesty, and consumer awareness. If the teacher cannot apply the combat aspects of the art he/she is not teaching the full art and certainly should not claim the title of a taiji "Master" as many do. This is misrepresentation ,They should tell the student the other half of the art is for combat, and it was in fact develped for that purpose, the health benifits were a side effect later anunciated.


"Just because it's "Tai Chi" or even "kung fu" doesn't mean fighting HAS to be part of the curriculum"

This is certainly true, but you must realize that you cannot have proper Yin without Proper Yang, the health side is incomplete, and not as benificial without the combat side of the art, and visa--versa, That is why I lure students with the "Dim-mak" stuff so I know they are interested in combat, but once they come to class they find themselves learning slow basic Tajiquan principles first. This has only helped me get a few dedicated, and educated adults, its just a good thing I dont have to make a living at it!


regards,
Gary R.
USAF
www.pressurepointfighting.com

[HuangKaiVun]

gazza99, I just don't believe that a guy HAS to be able to apply the combat aspects to be a true "master" of Taijiquan.

I've seen several noncombatants that I'd definitely consider "masters" of Taijiquan. In fact, I studied with one of them myself - Jiang Jianye. Master Jiang had all the combat stuff DOWN, believe me, but that wasn't his focus. He was interested in teaching the form and its health aspects, and my training in Tai Chi definitely DIDN'T suffer because of it. Jiang's "Basic Yang Short Form" (the one he invented himself) is a true masterpiece, a gem in the Taijiquan form library.

If you have 90 year old people with osteoporosis and arthritis learning Taijiquan just as a form of physical therapy, is it truly NECESSARY that they learn the combative applications? I don't think so. Full art it may not be, but full benefit it might be given the circumstances.

As far as yin and yang go, I feel that Taijiquan done strictly as a form has enough "yang" in it to challenge anyone. It's hard to control one's body while relaxing, and it takes great physical and mental exertion on one's part. Just because there's no fighting against an opponent doesn't mean a person isn't fighting against HIMSELF.

There are many people learning to enjoy Tai Chi from people that cannot fight using Taijiquan. In my experience, they're none the worse for wear. I even commend those nonfighting instructors who are so blessed to have the talent and skill to spread that knowledge to those that ordinarily won't accept it under customary kung fu training conditions.

As I said, many of those noncombatants who teach the next generation in this noncombative but yet incredibly vital exercise I definitely consider "masters". Not Tai Chi "masters of combat", but Tai Chi "masters of health".


If I may ask, gazza99, why don't you just lure people into your school with the slow basic principles they KNOW they're going to get anyway?

Not to belittle your Dim Mak, but the slow basic stuff is attractive to many students in and of itself!

[gazza99]

Good points, but I think you said it well when they can be Tai Chi "Masters of health" ONLY.

"gazza99, I just don't believe that a guy HAS to be able to apply the combat aspects to be a true "master" of Taijiquan. "

Well im sorry but that is simply not true, the very defination of the art is "Grand Ultimate FIST, or Boxing" Not just Grand Ultimate health dance. So technically- no if they cannot use it as a Martial art (combat viable) then they are truely by the definition of the very art and history not a Master of it. I agree the health benifits are great, and that cannot be discounted, but they are still not Masters no matter how you spin it!



"As far as yin and yang go, I feel that Taijiquan done strictly as a form has enough "yang" in it to challenge anyone"

I beg to differ, there is far not enough "yang", it has been watered down and shorted many times one more just adds to the discrace. How many explosive movements are in your long form? or your short form? is it all empty and slow? You cannot even begin to know extreme Yin without Extreme Yang.

"If I may ask, gazza99, why don't you just lure people into your school with the slow basic principles they KNOW they're going to get anyway? "

That is the very problem at hand-integrity of the art. People perceive Tai chi as a health art, not a martial one. So if I advertised Tai Chi only people coming through the door would not want the entire art, they would have no desire for it. Belive me Ive had students tell people they were doing tai chi , and word got around so I got a few of these people in. They loved the forms, but the other half of the class they didnt like. Thats fine, I told them they could do only that, but informed them that they would not be reaping all of the benifits both martially and health wise, and that anyone telling them different was trying to sell them something. But if I market to people who want something they can accually use for combat, and a martial art they can study for years that has depth and many other benifits along side I get the type of people that will do the art as a whole. I dont make much money, but hey thats life.

Regards,
Gary

[rubthebuddha]

i guess taiqi is falling prey to one of the biggest problems in martial arts -- watering down over the years because the necessity for it isn't as great. any obese dwarf can pack a 9 that'll put a whole the same size as steroid lad from the gym and his 9. because of this, physical warfare and true self defense is not thought as being necessary on a grand scale.

compare it with something like bjj. i've referred to bjj several times as having the drawbacks of going to the ground on a non-matted/swept/unjagged surface, and maybe not ideal when dealing with multiple attackers, but bjj has one HUGE thing going for it -- it's one of the few martial arts that's moving forward and is constantly getting better. consider the work done by the gracies on taking the japanese product and making it that much more vicious. each generation, the family has done its best to wring that much more from the art. to that, i give my stoutest high five, because so many martial arts are either stagnating in their own tradition or attempting to modernize their art by adding elements of other arts in order to compensate for shortcomings (i'm talking along the lines of mcdojos that are crap on the ground, so they add some bjj, and are crap with weapons, so they add a tad of escrima, ad infinitum). those who try to just add and add are steering away from their own tradition, but usually not steering toward anything any better than a hodgepodge that doesn't mesh well together and will break down the second their fight changes ranges.

and MERRYP: i said that about bjj because it, along with muay thai and a couple others, is an art that i'm not fully comfortable with in terms of defending myself against it. sometimes, the thought of having all my joints bending the other way bugs me more than the thought of my noggin smooshed. go figure. but as far dealing with 340 pounders, i'm not signing up for it anytime soon, but it's happened once before regardless of my own preference to be anywhere BUT there, and the only thing that saved me was either a very freshly sprained or broken knee that was causing him too much pain to deal with me when he fell on top of me. i know my strengths, and i'd still rather not deal with anyone, but especially a bjj guy, and having dealt with many bjjers before, i'd wager you understand exactly why.




(cause that **** hurts!)

[HongKongPhooey]

To quote an old football adage. (The proper football not the padded vesion)

Form is temporary, class is permenant.

Teach what is right and correct and that will always shine through. If you start worrying about what others teach or not teach then you're taking time away from improving your own class.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Anyone who lays claim to the title of Master must definitely have the expected fighting skills, because they have mastered the various Jins which are used for Martial Art. And contrary to what has been mentioned, any Taiji Master who "doesn't teach forms" is probably a quite poor teacher. In Taiji form practice is essential and without it you do not master the art.
I feel somewhat uneasy when I see al those Jing Jianye videos that get advertised in the Taiji magazines. The term jack of all trades-master of none springs heavily to mind.

[HuangKaiVun]

And have you ever BEEN to Jiang Jianye's class and met him IN PERSON, Repulsive Monkey?

I'll be the first to say he's not a fighter. But he's spreading the arts of kung fu to a wide and receptive audience mainly focused on its health benefits. And as far as his skill goes, he's definitely a "master" in his own way - just not necessarily of fighting.

Jiang has some REALLY OLD DUDES in his classes. They're not there to fight, but they're there to gain exercise. And he has a very long and proven track record as a successful business owner teaching this stuff. I'll also be the first person to tell you that Jiang knows a whole bunch of combat applications that work in sparring, being that I use them regularly.

It was from him that I found out firsthand that even doing ONE move in Taijiquan with the proper emphasis and application is hard enough to do. All the yang and yin one needs are there in the basic form if one chooses to see it. That's exactly why Jiang was so good for me as a sifu.

Jiang might not be a master of combat, but he's a master of teaching health to old and young people. YOU might not think that's mastery, but there are many paying clients and real fighting types like myself who've studied with him that DO. The success and size of his business indicates that customers like me are SATISFIED with what they're learning. No "poor" teacher could have no less than 100 paying clients in a legitimate business that's been around for over 10 years.

I've studied nonkungfu pursuits under true masters in different fields. I know the look and the walk. Jiang DEFINITELY is a master, without question.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Having read your return comment I feel that you have actually backed and supported my comments even more. A Taiji matser is a practioner who has mastery over the core principles of Taiji enough to transmit all aspects of the art. I do not look down at all and anyone who can transmitt good health practice in fact I would help promoye it too. However If they cannot transmitt the fighting aspect too then it could be possible they have only mastered half the art.
Why is such luminaries as Wang Shu-jin was famous for getting old and infirmed people and strengthening them throughTaiji and making good fighters out of them?

[HuangKaiVun]

Because Wang ShuJin was a Bagua and Hsing Yi Man first and foremost, not Taiji.

He practiced the Chen Pan Ling hybrid set of Tai Chi, teaching that noncombative style to the elderly in a NONCOMBATIVE fashion. Those who received combat training were learning Bagua and Hsing Yi.

Besides, what do YOU know about Tai Chi applications Repulsive Monkey? What did you learn from your sifu about how to apply these techniques in COMBAT?

If you post your lessons, I'll post what Jiang showed me.

[HuangKaiVun]

In the end, it doesn't matter.

Jiang Jianye has the final laugh as far as this excellent Taijiquan debate goes.

His smile looks like this: $$$.

[Repulsive Monkey]

I know of prostitutes whose smile look like $$$.
When on earth has money got to do with mastery. That is such a sad joke mate, do you really think that money = mastery!!!???.

By the wat I'm am talking about the Taiji that that Wang Shu jin taught and to a very high level too. You ought to do more background reading mate!

[apoweyn]

Gary,

You've made some good points. But I think you'll also contributed some nonsense. Personally, I'm getting a little tired of your tirade against taekwondo. I know it's tempting (and very common), but it doesn't reflect an interest in the truth.


2. Integrity of the Art-

Taijiquan is known as a health dance offered with yoga and salad shooters. Why? Becuase its an easy target market for people with little skill and big dollar signs in there eyes. Older people,or younger "counterculture" people. Its all too easy, and this has caused the availabiity of the real art of taijiquan to be severely injured, as well as the supply/demand for it. Im sure its that way for other arts, how would the Karate or hard style folks feel if people just taught all stances and kata without any real techniques, principle of movement, applications, reality drills, sensitivity drills..etc.? They would feel like nothing...wait most Karate and Hard style schools qualify for the above definition. I supose they can always fall back on the obvious heath benifits of doing excersize in general (expensive workout), and the mental benifits of concentration, and of course coordination. But then again they dont just sell it as that..see #1 again. At least Billy Blanksis up front about it.


If you can recognize that this phenomenon has affected your art, then why not recognize that the same force has worked on taekwondo and that this might account for the quality of instruction you've seen.

Personally, I've never seen taiji applied realistically either. That doesn't mean I think it impossible.

Dismissing anything completely based on your experience is a fool's errand in my opinion. You're trying to 'know' something based on what would, from a research standpoint, be a really limited amount of data. And that, I would consider to be lazy path to enlightenment.

On a more personal level, I flat out resent the implication. I spent 6 years in taekwondo. Did I then decide that there was more I wanted to see? Yes. Do I consider myself a taekwondope who wasted years of his life? No. I consider that taekwondo provided me a strong base. What's more, if I'd remained in taekwondo, I'm confident that I'd have found depths to it that I missed as a result of leaving.

Promote your own art, by all means. But does that really necessitate making negative generalizations about everything else?


Stuart B.

[guohuen]

Peter Payne lives up my way. He can certainly apply his Taiji.

[apoweyn]

Dennis Brown lives down this way. And by accounts, he can apply his taiji too. But I've never seen it first hand.

My only point is that if I were inclined to conclude that taiji weren't applicable, I would have as much empirical evidence to do so as Gary has to dismiss the arts he dismisses.

I'm just not inclined to do that.


Stuart B.

[gazza99]

Apoweyn good points,

"but it doesn't reflect an interest in the truth. "

I submit that it does, How many TKD schools produce people that have good fighting skills? How many Taji schools have? The answers are probably close in number, and this is the sad correlation. Thats why its about honesty, when I see a huge self-defense sign in the window at a TKD school and they cant fight their way out of a paper bag its dis-honest, when I taijiquan person says they are a master and cannot fight that is dishonest -period.

regards,
Gary

[apoweyn]

Yes. And given that both groups do both things, what makes taiji superior to taekwondo?

[rogue]

Gary, you said that you use Dim Mak to see if someone is interested in combat. If the FACs & PJs will forgive me, that is very odd coming from someone in the USAF, I'd think if you were interested in combat you'd be in the Marines or have at least a Ranger tab. No? ;)

I'm with HuangKaiVun on this, what does it matter what someone else does? If someone likes what they're doing insulting them isn't going to get them into your school but may turn them away from the MA all together.

Hey **** on TKD all you want I'm used to it. At least the TKDope instructors, even the bad ones, are able to pay the rent on their school and are passing their art, no matter how bad, on to others.

[gazza99]

"I'm with HuangKaiVun on this, what does it matter what someone else does? If someone likes what they're doing insulting them isn't going to get them into your school but may turn them away from the MA all together. "

You may be right, but it matters when a TKD blackbelt thinks he can defend himself and he cant, back to my #1 point-honesty.

I thought of being a spec ops guy, but then I thought ,how could I live without cable TV? Plus Id rather fly around then crawl around in the sand!


Re: Apoweyn
"Yes. And given that both groups do both things, what makes taiji superior to taekwondo"

Many things do, optimum bio-mechanics, power (see list of jins), fluidity, efficiency, potency, flexability (not leg flex.) There is much more to Taiji than there is to TKD, perhaps at TKD's highest level it could be somewhat internal and fluid? But that is the point where the Neijiia arts begin! Let me be blunter-Does this mean I am saying there is much more depth to Taiji? Yes, Am I saying Taiji can be better for you than TKD in all aspects, YES (except TKD tournies maybe :) ) But hey look at it this way, at least your not paying the Temple Kung-fu rates!

Regards,
Gary R.

[apoweyn]

Well Gary, let me go on record as saying that I think you're being tragically closed minded. But then, we've had that discussion before.


Stuart B.

[gazza99]

So noted, but you sir are incorrect :) We can just agree to disagree.

Gary

[apoweyn]

"Am I saying Taiji can be better for you than TKD in all aspects, YES"


personally, i don't see how anyone can be correct or incorrect when dealing with blanket statements such as these. you dislike taekwondo. i think your arguments suffer from that bias. as you said, agree to disagree.


stuart b.

[rubthebuddha]

personal preference would be to taiqi, but one thing TKD has it beat on is accessibility. in western washington, i can name off five really good TKD schools, but I can name off only one, maybe two (if he's still open) taiqi schools. the TKD schools are open day in, day out because they have lotsa students. the taiqi schools are open only a couple evenings a week, because they have so few.

so if i can't make the distance to a school, or can't make a time, that can make a big difference on what i can study.

[gazza99]

"i think your arguments suffer from that bias."
Well seeing as how you present no technical arguement on why/how TKD is better, I can only keep my bias. A number of TKD instructors have told me the same thing "you are close minded" when I throw out a dozen principles in my art that is non-existant in theirs, and they cannot even begin to compete in raw power, speed, fluidity, and other tangibles. Then we usually touch hands-if they are not afraid already, and the TKD instructor falls back on the "just for sport" excuse, or the last one I heard was not everyone knows what I know, but it might work against the average joe. Its just so funny when they really think those kicks will work, then once we enter hand/elbow/knee range they lack the tools and get pummelled by even a street fighter or average joe.

But hey like you said we can just agree to disagree, I just happen to be correct. I even told the last TKD instructor I played around with if he could show me one fluid and powerfull technique in TKD I would admit I was wrong about it, he could not.

Regards,
Gary

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by gazza99
How many TKD schools produce people that have good fighting skills? How many Taji schools have? The answers are probably close in number, and this is the sad correlation. Thats why its about honesty, when I see a huge self-defense sign in the window at a TKD school and they cant fight their way out of a paper bag its dis-honest, when I taijiquan person says they are a master and cannot fight that is dishonest -period. Gary

How do you know your school produces better fighters? Do you have your fighters regularly fight their fighters?

[gazza99]

I think you missed the point knifefighter, that quote was saying that most Taiji and TKD schools produce an equal number of people who cannot fight, but for different reasons, and either way they are both being dishonest about what they teach.
That being said I am not one of those schools,as we practice the combat side of taiji and the health side with great success, and I have put a few of my students against TKD people , as have I many times. I dont put my students against them consistantly, why? Because it will hinder their trainining to fight someone with such little combat skill.

Gary

[BrentCarey]

Hmm. I am definitely not the president of the TKD fan club, but I have met several outstanding TKD practitioners. TKD didn't make them formidable, training made them formidable. In the same manner, Taiji does not make a Taiji practitioner formidable, training does.

I am nearly exhausted with the "my style can beat up your style" arguments. If it was that simple, we would have resolved this argument by now. One style would consistently beat out all other styles in every competition.

However, as we all know, superiority depends more on the individual practitioners involved and the venue for the comparison. Since we can't even agree on the best venue, we will never establish superiority.

My son asked me just yesterday what I felt he needs to work on with his kung fu. I laughed and said, "Well, that depends on what you're trying to accomplish." He's 11 and still deals in absolutes, so he didn't really understand the statement.

Best regards,

Brent Carey

[KC Elbows]

What Brent Cary says is entirely true, with the sole exception of Burmese Kalari Do, which is just better than everything else.

[BrentCarey]

Originally posted by KC Elbows
[...]Burmese Kalari Do, which is just better than everything else.
Of course, Kalari Do is superior. I was just talking about everyone else.

What do you want to bet we see a Kalari Do school open up within the year?

-Brent

[gazza99]

"practitioners involved and the venue for the comparison. Since we can't even agree on the best venue, we will never establish superiority. "

this is true for sure, but it has been obvious to every TKD guy ive touched hands with he has nothing when It comes to movement, structure and power, so experiance is my only comparison, and a tad bit of objective reason and principle. Im also sick of the arguement that its not the art, its the person. That is true to an extent, but not all arts are created equal, and the timeline and purpose differs greatly for each one. That being said I still hold to all statements made about how much kalari-do...ahem,, I mean TKD sucks.

:)

Gary

[kungfoocutie]

there was a good bit here to read, i skimmed it over.

true most of us started out with a lame ass art that was too americanized, and or a blackbelt factory

but we need to face facts on how ignorant people in general and even in martial arts are about chinese martial arts.

to them hard style soft style all the same, northern or southern, whats the difference.
they don't don't appreciate that its the entire package.

this art requires so much dedication which many don't have the heart for.
we need to be thankful for stupid people and arts like tkd because it keeps out MOST of the crap.

So I am sending all my love to TKD, JUDO, and BJJ thank you
for keepin us the superior martial art

[rubthebuddha]

um, that's BJJ. BBJ is short for black belt jones. ;)

[kungfoocutie]

sorry its that blonde thing ya know?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by rubthebuddha


as far as bjj? find me some bjj that works against people twice my size (i'm a buck-seventy) that come at me in pairs and choose to attack me in a dense parking lot.

it's no secret that most mma and bjj guys are pretty athletic. That means they have an advantage in running away, which is safest. Also, due to the nature of the training, they are aggressive as hell, which alone is an excellent help. in addition, size is less of a factor in bjj than it is in standup. you may not have enought raw power to knock the guy out, but I can
1. throw him onto the hard concrete, which can easily be a fight ender
2. if we go to the ground, use skill and leverage to best him.

don't get me wrong -- bjj is one of the few martial arts i'm not sure i'd be able to defend myself against (as far as time spent in the study). but the concepts of rolling with someone while leaving myself exposed for his friends or for the curb or the broken bottle on the ground don't sit well with me.

WHY DO MOST TMA HAVE THAT MISCONCEPTION??!??! In a fight, a bjjers goal would not be to roll on the ground, it would be to get away. if he gets taken down, he will know how to use his skills to control the situation and get away. If you are fighting multiple attackers and can't get away, you will likely go to the ground anyway, either from being tackled, losing balance while fighting or from eating too many strikes. While standing, you are exposed to the same friends and the same broken bottle - all one of the guys has to do is pick it up and shank you with it.

[yenhoi]

I agree with Gary to a certain extent, but:

ap said something concerning blanket statements, and BrentCarey said it the best concerning 'training.'

'Martial Art' for some reason concerns itself with fighting principles. There are no real principles when fighting. Sure there are body mechanics, and correct body mechanics for certain so-called 'techniques' and 'power-generation' for specific purposes, but nothing is truely set in stone when fighting except that it always ends when all the combatants on one side or the other are dead.

Gary - have you ever fought a TKD person? How about a TKD person who TRAINS to fight, and is seriously concerned, as a 'martial artist' about endurance, agility, strength, stamina, etc, etc, etc? I do not doubt your skill at taichi techniques and movements and body mechanics, nor do I doubt your skill and prowess in combat, but fighting is very different from touching hands. Not to mention the innumerable variables that are present during combat that cannot be controlled or planned upon.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by kungfoocutie


this art requires so much dedication which many don't have the heart for.
we need to be thankful for stupid people and arts like tkd because it keeps out MOST of the crap.

So I am sending all my love to TKD, JUDO, and BJJ thank you
for keepin us the superior martial art
First, welcome to the forum! now on to biz... you sound like someone who has not experienced a wide range of martial arts. I don't mean training in them, but sparring with good practitioners in them. A judo or shuai chiao ( I say that because many of the throws are similar. there is kicking and punching, but the focus is the off balance and throw) will dump you on your ass quick, fast and in a hurry, as will a good bjj guy - especially if you aren't used to dealing with it. TKD players are extremely agile and have kicks that pack a mean wallop - I've felt them a number of times. If you have ever trained with a good tkd player, you know what I mean. generalizations like the one you just gave are part of why CMA - well, TMA as a whole - gets the rep that it does...

[SevenStar]

and about the heart/dedication thing.... my bjj class is anywhere from 2 - 4 hours long, depending on the day, and the whole class is grueling. my longfist class is only an hour and a half.... there is just as much heart and dedication, if not more, required to train in grappling, not to mention that due to the nature of the training, you are continually humbled. I find that my TMA buddies are far more arrogant than my bjj buddies because they don't have the same humbling process. when you are constantly testing yourself against others, constantly getting knocked on your duff, constatnly learning how much you really don't know - you tend not to be that way.

you will always had trolls and keyboard warriors like bjjisthebest, but face to face (from the grapplers I've met) they are nothing like that.

[rogue]

I think you missed the point knifefighter, that quote was saying that most Taiji and TKD schools produce an equal number of people who cannot fight, but for different reasons, and either way they are both being dishonest about what they teach.

Gary,
From the survey I've done I have seen only one group of Taiji students that even have a clue on how to fight, but I've worked out with many TKD peeps of various kwan that could.

Right now I'm watching you counter to a "karate" style punch and I'm LMAO.

[Black Jack]

I find posts like these a little bizzare.

Forget about focusing on style, that viewpoint is a wasted one IMHO with the exception of a academic standpoint, its the man you are fighting, a living and breathing human being which is bent on beating you into the ground, maybe even bent on killing you.

Do some of you really think a thug is going to square off from you, get in a fighting stance and proclaim..."I do TKD!!!" or "I do BJJ!!" Do you think he is going to warm up with a tkd kata complete with shouts and ritual bows or maybe do some double leg takedown drills on a grappling dummy suspended from the back of his pickup truck so you will decipher his fighting background and put together the proper defense? ;)

What about the gent who just knows honky-tonk waza?

The style that practices driving a rusty screwdriver into your stomach wall while asking you for change or maybe sneaking up behind you and hitting you over the head with a tire-iron.

[rogue]

BJ, you are so unrealistic.:D I'll admit that the Thai Chi guys had a very good inside game.

[gazza99]

"Right now I'm watching you counter to a "karate" style punch and I'm LMAO"

well I dont know exaclly what you mean , but the guy doing the punch was a TKD black belt at some point in time! But yes fighting a TKD guy it is as funny as that clip, as most are that inept. Id put a 5 year student of mine against Any 5 year TKD student any day of the week and twice on sunday. of course my student would be pure Taiji, and id expect the TKD guy to be pure TKD.....all out...any takers?

And yes rogue, most Tai chi guys do not even train for any sort of fighting so they of course are not going to know how, but id bet in an intense situation they would fair equally against a black belt tae kwon joke person.


Yenhoi,
Ive had a TKD person try and come at me with everything they had, no rules, and they failed miserablely without me even reaching 50% of my potential. I think the guy only got a permanent neck injury, but he can still walk. Like I said comparitivley TKD has nothing, perhaps a good sport that is also a joke in kickboxing circles if I am not mistaken!

Gary

[kungfoocutie]

i can make any generilizations i choose, and you're right, it could just be I haven't seen the best martial artists come from these particular styles.And a martial artist in any art can train hard. It just seems with other styles its only physical, nothing else, and it take a lot more than a fit body to be a true martial artist, something I admit to not accomplishing yet. I know I have a long way to go but I choose for that long way to be with chinese martial arts I feel they have more to offer, with me anyway

I live in Texas where most everyone studies sport karate or TKD.
I see 12 yr olds with 2nd dans. The yell really loud and wear glitter gi's

I came from TKD (jhoon rhee, and yeah I know) the only thing I came out of the school knowing is exactly how not to run a school.

But my whole real point was just how stupid people are when it comes to kungfu. I think its a sad sad thing. I feel like it should have much more respect than it does. SO when I come to a place called kungfu online I like to brag a bit, is it wrong?... probably, but no one else understands what kungfu is all about.

PLus everyone talks a lil smack some of the time, and while i'm here you'll probably be hearin a whole lot of it......lol just know i'm full of BS

[SevenStar]

there's nothing wrong with that - most of us are full of BS, some more than others :D I do tend to jump on the defensive when people say things like bjj guys will try to roll on the bround, even against multiple attackers, or the most mma guys are arrogant, because from my experience, the exact opposite is true, due to the lessons in humbling I mentioned earlier. Also, remember that not everyone wants a complete martial art. There are many MA who only to fight, just as there are those who only want to learn the health aspects.

And I agree, people are stupid when it comes to CMA. JMA and KMA also. I've had the wind knocked out of my by a tkd guy who was training for the olympics - I know that tkd kicks can hurt, and I respect them for that. I typically don't bash styles, unless it's something like CMQ or shaolin kuntao, then I just can't help myself :D

[HuangKaiVun]

repulsive monkey, I guess you think that a kung fu master should be barely making ends meet financially then.

All I know is that in America, a successful martial artist can earn lots of money. You clearly disagree with that, which is your right as a nonAmerican. After all, you don't know how things work in our country.

But I'll tell you as an American living in America that the name of the game is SURVIVAL - martial or free enterprise or otherwise. We're all competing with each other for survival in a world that grants no favors. Any edge we can use we WILL employ, regardless of whether it works or not. Guys like Jiang Jianye and the kung fu guys teaching in the original post are not just surviving, but THRIVING. Who are you to say what they does is wrong or doesn't work?

That's why I agree with rogue and Black Jack. Our "honky tonk waza" is very hard to deal with because we throw out all concepts of what's "supposed" to be out the window and simply kick butt. That's what kung fu is all about in the end.


You know more than I do about Wang Shu Jin's Tai Chi teaching ability in Tai Chi Combat, repulsivemonkey.

My notes come from BK Frantzis and Robert Smith, both of whom wrote about him and studied under him directly. Both of them insist that Wang's Tai Chi was basically for health and exercise, being that it was a Chen Pan Ling composite form. Combat applications of Wang supposedly came out of his Bagua/HsingYi training with Chang Chao Tung.

If you know more about Wang, let me know because I'm a big fan of Wang's.

[rogue]

"well I dont know exaclly what you mean , but the guy doing the punch was a TKD black belt at some point in time!"

Meaning what? David Carridine is a Tai Chi expert, so should I get him to be my Uke in a TKD or karate demo? Sorry my friend I've yet to see any karate or TKD fighter stand in one place and throw reverse and lunge punches at a mobile opponent. I have seen punches get fully chambered as a finishing move but even that's been rare.


Id put a 5 year student of mine against Any 5 year TKD student any day of the week and twice on sunday. of course my student would be pure Taiji, and id expect the TKD guy to be pure TKD.....all out...any takers?

So you're saying that you could go to a TKD competition, follow TKD rules and by using the principles of Tai Chi win hands down? I'd expect if your Tai chi is as awsome as that you could find plenty of outlets since they're are plenty of TKD schools that compete.
BTW what is "pure TKD"? Would the TKD person be allowed to train against a Tai Chi person in preperation for this challenge?

Or are you talking about a no rules street fight? Which considering it would have no rules how would the time, place and determination of the winner be determined?

I've heard people talk about cage fights, I'm assuming that your students have a good track record there? The UFC? Kickboxing? San Shou? Sanda? The Toughman Competitions on FX? How about some police records? Civil lawsuits against your students for using their tai chi? Any bars where they're now banned from entering? Close down any BJJ schools? Anything?

You don't like a TKD school using the words Self Defense, I find it ironic that you throw out challenges but haven't produced any fighters of any public record. You were doing so well Gary but once again have made yourself look silly.

[gazza99]

"Or are you talking about a no rules street fight? Which considering it would have no rules how would the time, place and determination of the winner be determined? "

Yup, however you like, this is getting silly......I only made that statement to make a point, I wouldnt condone such challenge matches.


"You don't like a TKD school using the words Self Defense, I find it ironic that you throw out challenges but haven't produced any fighters of any public record"

You are correct, becuase TKD is proven in TKD tournaments and is available on public record they can defend themselves. Well many TKD guys I meet at least admit they couldnt use their art in a real street situation, even though it was sold to them with such premise. That and that alone is my point, honesty, and integrity, sorry if ive offended you.


Gary

[rogue]

Seriously, how is what you're doing any different Gary? What proof do you have that you produce a better fighter than anyone else?

[NeedsPractice]

Alright heres my opinion, after trying a variety of arts, and visiting a several schools.

1- TKD is not easy to do at a high level, risk of injury is extremely.
I also know an extremely talented tkd practitioner (3rd dan) who could beat the crap out of most of the kung fu people I have come across.
It may be just too easy for the average joe to open a tkd or any other type of martial arts school.
Just because someone can do a spinning, flying triple kick or whatever the heck doesnt mean they would actually try it in a fight, (if they have any sense). If a guy can kick over your head he definitely kick you in the stomach or groin.No I dont practice TKD although I did give it a try.
Knowing when, if and how to apply a particular technique seperates the best from the rest. I am pretty sure every martial arts has some stuff in it that should only be used in rare occasions if ever.


2- Yes kung fu may have more depth to it than karate, however often karate people may train alot harder than many kung fu practitioner.
I tried two stlyes of karate (kyukushin and shorin ryu) both had alot of conditioning, and when I went looking for a kung fu school I absolutely would not join any school that only had 1 hour classes and didnt make you build up your stamina in addition to showing you kung fu.
What good is knowing kung fu if you dont have the stamina to use it in a fight.

3- Speaking of stamina, I know a few people who study tai chi , and a few who teach it and point blank not everybody who studies tai chi knows the applications, not everybody wants to know the applications, and even less are conditioned to use it in a fight. The good thing about tai chi is that not everyone goes to it looking for fighting skills. Where as so many people go to kung and karate expecting X amount of skill in x amount of time and come up short.

So the cma people can whine about the mcdojo people, and the bjj can whine about the cma people, and so on, but its up to the student to know what he wants out of training and finding the right place to get it. Which may mean visiting other schools even if you think the one you are at is the right one just to understand whats out there.

I love kung fu in general, especially the internal aspects but a fist is a fist, and it can hit pretty hard no matter what the attacker has studied, even if he has studied nothing.

[gazza99]

Needspractice- Its true many karate folks train harder in the dojo, its a different mentality sometimes I think, the CMA learn in class and train on their own, the JMA train in class and learn.

Rogue: If you have to ask how the Neijia arts are different that TKD, or how it is used in combat is different from the health aspects then I suggest you do some more training with more people, and start reading some books. My proof is only my experience, and conjecture based on principle and research. Im sorry that TKD is widely considered a joke amongst serious martial artists, and even in tournament cirlces (non-TKD), just deal with it, Ive dealt with the tai chi rap....But at least you dont see tai chi widely marketed for self-defence (health only)....back to point numero uno-Honesty.....wow I seem to keep coming back to my original points...Funny how you seem to avoid them.

Gary

[rogue]

And yes rogue, most Tai chi guys do not even train for any sort of fighting so they of course are not going to know how, but id bet in an intense situation they would fair equally against a black belt tae kwon joke person.
So TC can make someone a good fighter without ever having learned to fight? Do you also write the ads for TRS?


Id put a 5 year student of mine against Any 5 year TKD student any day of the week and twice on sunday. of course my student would be pure Taiji, and id expect the TKD guy to be pure TKD.....all out...any takers? An open challenge...


Yup, however you like, this is getting silly......I only made that statement to make a point, I wouldnt condone such challenge matches. ... withdrawn. For your own well being don't issues challenges if you don't mean them.


Ive had a TKD person try and come at me with everything they had, no rules, and they failed miserablely without me even reaching 50% of my potential. I think the guy only got a permanent neck injury, but he can still walk. You've got my interest, what kind of fight was this and what started it?


Like I said comparitivley TKD has nothing, perhaps a good sport that is also a joke in kickboxing circles if I am not mistaken! I know several full contact kickboxers that are ITF-TKD fighters, the ITF doesn't have full contact tourniments so they started kickboxing and have done well. The WTF-TKD fighters have an outlet in the Olympic style tourniments. Their style of fighting is not my cup of tea but I've crossed hands with a few and they are not a joke.


My proof is only my experience, and conjecture based on principle and research. If you're selling your system as a superior fighting art then why not put your fighters into competition and establish some concrete proof? Putting videos up of some contrived defenses against your stereo types of how certain styles will attack is an invalid way of proving your styles worth given the many types of competitions available to test a styles strong and weak points. Don't like UFC then how about Sanshou? William CC Chen does why not your fighters?


Im sorry that TKD is widely considered a joke amongst serious martial artists, and even in tournament cirlces (non-TKD), just deal with it, Hey Gary, I know more about the good and the bad of various kwan of TKD than you ever will. What they do doesn't concern me, what I do does. Sounds like you're projecting your insecurities about your art onto others.

[apoweyn]

gary,

yes, it is about honesty. that's your original point, right?

so, again, how is what goes on in taiji any more honest?

take your own site for example. the demonstration of techniques is a prearranged one-step. right? your partner throws a technique (chosen prior to the delivery) and you counter it. ideal for demonstrating a technique. but you're trying to convince us that taiji is unequivocably more combat effective.

so how about some footage of these fights or sparring matches you keep citing? or, failing that, how about some footage simply of freesparring? as is, your clips predominantly involve a friend of yours who also gives a ringing endorsement of your classes on your website. that's hardly representative of a resisting opponent with hostile intent.

another thing: i never suggested that taekwondo was more effective than taiji. i think that's an inherently flawed argument. all i said was that the blanket statement that taiji was superior to taekwondo was equally flawed.

you've crossed hands with a 'number' of taekwondo fighters? what's a number? two? four? fifty? and none of them gave you any significant trouble? what was the context? friends of yours? what were their ages? their years of experience? (don't give me belt ranks. i'll agree with you that there are too many black belts out there.) did they approach you or vice versa?

you've never seen a taekwondo fighter able to deliver a technique with flow and power? i have. so now, we're both making arguments based on conjecture and personal observation. neither are very good or strong arguments. but if you insist on claiming that you're right and i'm mistaken, then clearly my perception is somehow flawed. is that the assertion? that i'm not capable of judging flow and power?

your next argument: i failed to make any arguments against your point that taiji features more principles. no, i didn't fail. i just didn't regard that argument as very valid. principles don't make a fighter. not on their own. they're a part of a bigger system, as is execution, training, temperment, and a host of other qualities. and in my experience, the taekwondoka i've known have shown more of these qualities than the taiji proponents.

but here's the kicker, gary: i'm not drawing any conclusions from that. the taiji i've seen hasn't been of the combat-oriented variety. and i'm not about to judge them for that.

here's your argument, as i understand it:

1) most taekwondo schools don't train for combat. the taekwondoka i've fought weren't difficult to beat. therefore, all taekwondo sucks.

2) most taiji schools don't train for combat. the taiji stylists that most people have seen can't fight. therefore, most taiji schools don't train real taiji.

THAT is the bias i mentioned. logically, your argument reeks of it. you see what you want to see.

taekwondo has been big in the states for a while now. so unscrupulous and dishonest (see, i can come back to that point too) instructors have had plenty of time to twig to the fact that they can start up schools and teach unknowing masses before they're truly prepared. and they can make money doing it. saying that this represents the truth about taekwondo is lazy thinking. it really is.

now, taiji is also popular. and other unscrupulous instructors figured out that if they could learn the sequence of movements and nothing else, they could turn around and charge senior citizens and health-conscious yuppies a decent amount of money before they themselves truly understand taiji.

and yet you insist that this practice in no way reflects on the truth of taiji.

it's a double standard, gary. and as such, it will never be convincing.

i think you probably do good work in your school. but your insistence on promoting your school by undermining anything that you don't personally adhere to is a shame, plain and simple.

i don't practice taiji (yet), but you will never hear me talk down about it in absolute terms. individual experiences, perhaps. but never the absolute art.

you, you're obviously free to do whatever you want. i just think it's a shame.


stuart b.

[SevenStar]

mental note: never debate with Ap :D

[apoweyn]

:)

[Polaris]

Originally posted by apoweyn

i think you probably do good work in your school. but your insistence on promoting your school by undermining anything that you don't personally adhere to is a shame, plain and simple.

you, you're obviously free to do whatever you want. i just think it's a shame.

stuart b.

Agreed, I get real tired of all the badmouthing some people do.
It takes a big man and secure individual to act like a tough guy and put others down. Not to mention, atleast in my experience, it's usually the smallest dog that barks the loudest.

Nice post Stuart.

[apoweyn]

Cheers Polaris. I appreciate it.

I just don't understand the necessity of this mindset. Or rather, I don't believe in the necessity of it.


Stuart B.

[gazza99]

Rogue and Apoweyn seem to have drastically missed the point of this thread, please re-read my orininal post and find what may be completely innacurate? I continue in other posts to say that taiji and TKD probably produce an equal number of people who cannot fight, and that a number of tkd and taiji schools everywhere need to be honest about what they teach, and also proposed a solution saying to help ensure of the integrity of your own art in your area-see my post about visiting your local Mcdojo -"If he doesnt do your art it may be crossing the line a bit"-

But let me address more clearly my points for you as they are clearly misinterpreted, and rightly so as they were so diplomatically stated :) once I was drawn out into giving my brutally honest opinion and self-admitted conjecture by statements from rogue such as "what makes taiji superior to taekwondo?"


RE AP:
"yes, it is about honesty. that's your original point, right?

so, again, how is what goes on in taiji any more honest? "

Its not, like I said before someone claming mastery of Taijiquan that cannot use it for combat is dishonest based on the very definition and name of the art.

"ideal for demonstrating a technique"

is the key to what is shown in the video clip, I dont believe the clip description says its a freefight? Surely people are not this ignorant.


"you've crossed hands with a 'number' of taekwondo fighters? what's a number? two? four? fifty? and none of them gave you any significant trouble? what was the context? friends of yours? what were their ages? their years of experience? (don't give me belt ranks. i'll agree with you that there are too many black belts out there.) did they approach you or vice versa? "

Ok, I havent crossed hand with any begginer TKD people since I was a begginer myself, everyone was 10 yrs+, the last guy 20 yrs. I would say in the last year 2 TKD instructors, in the last 10 years, 10-20 TKD practitioners. Some were friends of my age, some older. But this is really a moot point as a vast majority of the TKD practitioners Ive met (didnt take a national poll) said their TKD let them down in a fight , or they didnt think they could really use it to defend themselves.

"you've never seen a taekwondo fighter able to deliver a technique with flow and power? i have. so now, we're both making arguments based on conjecture and personal observation. neither are very good or strong arguments. but if you insist on claiming that you're right and i'm mistaken, then clearly my perception is somehow flawed. is that the assertion? that i'm not capable of judging flow and power? "

NO I have never seen a TKD fighter deliver techniques (plural)with flow and power, I noticed you used the singular word "technique" ? Yes are arguements are both based on conjecture and personal observation, but at least I am up front that the arguement is conjecture ,im not asking anyone to take it as law, you are correct as neither of our arguements are strong, mainly becuase these were not the points put on the thread to begin with, it was not an Art Vs Art debate, but rather an "Integrity of your own art" point.

Yes, your perception and ability to judge flow and power could very well be flawed. How am I to know? All I am basing my perception on is the fact that a number of TKD instructors could not show me fluid and powerfull techniques. I am still open to the fact that they may exist at higher levels I have not seen, please re-read my posts, i have said this before.

"your next argument: i failed to make any arguments against your point that taiji features more principles. no, i didn't fail. i just didn't regard that argument as very valid. principles don't make a fighter. not on their own. they're a part of a bigger system, as is execution, training, temperment, and a host of other qualities. and in my experience, the taekwondoka i've known have shown more of these qualities than the taiji proponents. "

Well you still failed to argue the point any way you look at it. But I agree that many TKD guys may have qualities you listed because they train to execute in a tournament, most taiji guys are in it for health, back to my original points integrity of the art,what is priniciple without training and execution? Its not the full art of Taiji without those qualities you mentioned-see original points 1 and 2 (honest, integrity of art).
But I believe principles are what drives the way the training is done, the way the execution and temperment is carried out, so dont ignore the why and how, and just skip to the do, or youll find yourself in a kickboxing ring looking like an idiot (see Mcdojo.com TKD Vs MT clip)

"here's your argument, as i understand it:

1) most taekwondo schools don't train for combat. the taekwondoka i've fought weren't difficult to beat. therefore, all taekwondo sucks.

2) most taiji schools don't train for combat. the taiji stylists that most people have seen can't fight. therefore, most taiji schools don't train real taiji. "

Thanks for further generalizing my already admitted generalizations,and again missing the thread point after I was asked the ARt Vs Art question, except im sure not all TKD sucks, and not all taiji schools just train for health.

"it's a double standard, gary. and as such, it will never be convincing"
How is it a double standard? I am only asking people be honest about what they are teaching, many TKD people and intructors know they are not teaching/learning street applicable stuff, and the taiji instructors know they are not teaching the full art, only half. So both are equally dishonest, back to the point of the thread.


RE: Polaris
"Agreed, I get real tired of all the badmouthing some people do.
It takes a big man and secure individual to act like a tough guy and put others down.
Your right polaris, but ignoring dishonest people is not going to make them go away, im sorry I was drawn out into the art V. Art arguement, obviously if I didnt think my art was best for me I would not be doing it. Ive just met quite a few people who have had their money taken from the venues I stated in my original post.To avoid being a stat. like this, and in an attempt to circumvent my own bias I do not have contracts at my school, and in fact I encourage my students to look at other arts and schools, just this last weekend I took 4 of my students to a local seminar another school was hosting,(Ju Jitsu, Kali, Silat, Hapkido, kuntao,Jailhouse boxing) I had never met the school owner/instructors before, but heard good things. I also found the only other good taiji/bagua guy in town(besides Chris M) and took a few of my students to see him, the guy had spent over a decade in China, and had some real skill, I am not trying to further the honesty problem, only the solution.

Regards,
Gary

[rogue]

How is it a double standard? I am only asking people be honest about what they are teaching, many TKD people and intructors know they are not teaching/learning street applicable stuff, and the taiji instructors know they are not teaching the full art, only half. So both are equally dishonest, back to the point of the thread.

All well and good Gary, but why not let the TKD people worry about TKD, the karateka worry about karate and you just worry about Taiji?

I do my masters style of TKD and could care less about what other kwan do. If I work hard enough and get good enough that's the best advertisment for what I consider a good martial art.

If you know TKD people who have been doing it for 10-20 years and can't fight with it at all what does that say about them picking you for their next instructor?:D

[gazza99]

fair enough...:)

[apoweyn]

gary,

let's try this again. i agree with the core of your statement. i wholeheartedly agree that schools should be truthful in advertising. and i agree that promises of self defense are a clear and present example of this dishonesty.

what i don't understand is why it's necessary to badmouth other styles to make this point. to my mind, the point is strong enough and you're intelligent enough to make that point without statements like this:


how would the Karate or hard style folks feel if people just taught all stances and kata without any real techniques, principle of movement, applications, reality drills, sensitivity drills..etc.? They would feel like nothing...wait most Karate and Hard style schools qualify for the above definition.

i would like to know how you legitimate characterizing the practice of MOST (i.e., more than 50 percent of those in existence) hard-style schools out there. and if you can't do that, if you admit that it was a generalization, then don't get bent out of shape when people call you on it. you said it. deal with it.


Rogue and Apoweyn seem to have drastically missed the point of this thread, please re-read my orininal post and find what may be completely innacurate? I continue in other posts to say that taiji and TKD probably produce an equal number of people who cannot fight, and that a number of tkd and taiji schools everywhere need to be honest about what they teach, and also proposed a solution saying to help ensure of the integrity of your own art in your area-see my post about visiting your local Mcdojo -"If he doesnt do your art it may be crossing the line a bit"-

not inaccurate at all. as i said, i think you bring up an excellent point. again, no reason to make blanket statements about arts other than your own to make that point.


But let me address more clearly my points for you as they are clearly misinterpreted, and rightly so as they were so diplomatically stated :) once I was drawn out into giving my brutally honest opinion and self-admitted conjecture by statements from rogue such as "what makes taiji superior to taekwondo?"

i gather you're being sarcky about the diplomatic bit. and that's fine. mostly, my objection was to your delivery. it is undiplomatic. and more to the point, you present your experience as truth, which necessarily implies that the experience of anyone other than you (and the conclusions they draw from that experience) is faulty in some way. unless, of course, they happen to completely agree with you.

believe it or not, gary, people get a little bent when you imply that the art they've dedicated themselves to for years is inferior based on a lack of principles and so on. so why do it? to save us from ourselves?

the principles of taekwondo and karate are as solid as the principles of any other style. their reputation is often tarnished (as is that of taiji) by those who haven't developed a very mature view of the art. and that's where i have to agree with you. we need to be asking questions. we need to be honest with ourselves and with others. and we need to take the answers we learn to those questions and use them to rework our own practice.

so why is that any less possible in taekwondo or karate than it is in taiji? i don't believe it's so. and perhaps you don't either. but that's the implication i get from your quotes.


ideal for demonstrating a technique is the key to what is shown in the video clip, I dont believe the clip description says its a freefight? Surely people are not this ignorant.

no, we aren't. you'll note that i didn't complain that the clip was there. i only suggested that if you're looking to convince us of your statements, based on your experience in sparring sessions and 'crossing hands', then it might prove useful for the rest of us to observe these sessions. clips of technique aren't enough. they're perfectly valid, but they aren't enough. nor are accounts of your experience. not if you're going to insist that you're right and others are wrong.


Ok, I havent crossed hand with any begginer TKD people since I was a begginer myself, everyone was 10 yrs+, the last guy 20 yrs. I would say in the last year 2 TKD instructors, in the last 10 years, 10-20 TKD practitioners. Some were friends of my age, some older. But this is really a moot point as a vast majority of the TKD practitioners Ive met (didnt take a national poll) said their TKD let them down in a fight , or they didnt think they could really use it to defend themselves.

and you make the same assertion about taiji proponents. so why is one situation curable and the other not?


NO I have never seen a TKD fighter deliver techniques (plural)with flow and power, I noticed you used the singular word "technique" ? Yes are arguements are both based on conjecture and personal observation, but at least I am up front that the arguement is conjecture ,im not asking anyone to take it as law, you are correct as neither of our arguements are strong, mainly becuase these were not the points put on the thread to begin with, it was not an Art Vs Art debate, but rather an "Integrity of your own art" point.

fair enough. so why make statements about the effectiveness of these other arts at all?


Yes, your perception and ability to judge flow and power could very well be flawed. How am I to know? All I am basing my perception on is the fact that a number of TKD instructors could not show me fluid and powerfull techniques. I am still open to the fact that they may exist at higher levels I have not seen, please re-read my posts, i have said this before.

"how am i to know?" how am i to know that your choice in sparring partners isn't inherently flawed? it's not like you went up against herb perez, is it. in return, i won't draw any negative conclusions from sparring matches with the taiji teacher at the local Y.


Well you still failed to argue the point any way you look at it.

feel better?


But I agree that many TKD guys may have qualities you listed because they train to execute in a tournament, most taiji guys are in it for health, back to my original points integrity of the art,what is priniciple without training and execution? Its not the full art of Taiji without those qualities you mentioned-see original points 1 and 2 (honest, integrity of art).
But I believe principles are what drives the way the training is done, the way the execution and temperment is carried out, so dont ignore the why and how, and just skip to the do, or youll find yourself in a kickboxing ring looking like an idiot (see Mcdojo.com TKD Vs MT clip)

no, you'll find yourself in a kickboxing ring learning a little about your own practice by putting it to the test. and if you're smart, you'll use that feedback to strengthen your own practice.


Thanks for further generalizing my already admitted generalizations,and again missing the thread point after I was asked the ARt Vs Art question, except im sure not all TKD sucks, and not all taiji schools just train for health.

you're too good a writer, debater, and teacher to resort to generalizations in the first place, gary. you've got a good point. so MAKE IT. don't undermine your own message with generalizations. "i'm sure not all TKD sucks." there, was that so freaking painful?


How is it a double standard? I am only asking people be honest about what they are teaching, many TKD people and intructors know they are not teaching/learning street applicable stuff, and the taiji instructors know they are not teaching the full art, only half. So both are equally dishonest, back to the point of the thread.

yes, you are essentially saying this. and i agree. but that's not all you're saying, as the first quote in this post reflects.

again, i haven't missed the point. i'm calling you on the necessity of making derogatory comments about other styles to make it. you don't need to. you've got a good point. and you write well. so bag the condescension. if most of the taiji that we see wouldn't work in a fight, and it's necessary to train taiji properly for that purpose, then how about giving everyone else the benefit of the doubt rather than talking to and about us like we're mislead children.


stuart b.

[KC Elbows]

There is no style, or in fact, no facet of life in which examples can be found of people not being good representatives.

There's only a handful of six elbows practitioners in the states, and yet there are those who don't work hard enough at their art.

So it's inevitable that, when thousands of people study the same style, that many of those will not be great fighters, and only a few will really be great representatives of the style.

Just my 2 cents.

[rogue]

You are correct, becuase TKD is proven in TKD tournaments and is available on public record they can defend themselves. Well many TKD guys I meet at least admit they couldnt use their art in a real street situation, even though it was sold to them with such premise.

Gary the reason we know that Olympic style TKD is flawed is because we see it in tournements. The reason I know that many ITF kwan are flawed is because of the point sparring they do. If the Gracies came to America and said "Youre karate and kung fu can be defeated by our JJ", and then didn't fight in the ring do you think the number of martial artists who recieved that wake up call would have counted in the numbers that it did? Of course not, BJJ would be just another esoteric martial art practiced by a few people like judo is. So if you want to spread your message the venues are out there, you may have to hold your nose to do it but it's the only way people will take you seriously.

[No_Know]

"1. Honesty-....

There is a number of TKD schools everywhere, and few I can think of with a 10 mile radius of me with big huge SELF-DEFENSE signs up. However these people cannot defend themselfs after many years and many more black belts."

Focus. Tae Kwon Do is a promotion. It worked. People heard about Korea. Those with the interest had an open door to something curiously new to them. Tae Kwon Do was made to appeal to the masses and the young. Life is short. People want to be accepted and competative. Purity of a thing is for the Heart and the Mind. Things one might tend to keep seperated from the World~--safety feature.

"One guy I ran into at the martial arts supply place in town (century) was buying all sorts of gear TKD shirts etc. He saw my shirts (I was picking them up) and inquired about my school. I found out he signed a year contract for private TKD lessons at like 100 bucks an hour becuase the instructor told him it was an awesome self-defense art. They guy had no interest in sport at all. But the teachers main focus at the school was tournaments! He bragged about the instructors trophies! He had no clue about any other arts in the area, I gave him a quick demo on a Bag there and he wanted to get privates from me as well! I could use the money, but Im not about to un-train the guy after every TKD session. So I declined and told him to find me when his contract was up and Id consider it. This is just a snap shot of a 10 mile radius! There are many worse examples. "

Trade is Known East And West. North And South. America is for opportunists. And Business Is Business. Basics are nourishments and shelter and breathe. Money is used to achieve at least some of that and provdies that the other can get done. Is it needed basically not. Is it useful within the current system(s)? Theoretically. Make a lot. Make it fast. I am not responsible for you letting me trick you. This is how I understood the World system around me I make it work for me go preach over there. I Know right and wrong but I also Know my child is hungry and my spouse deserves better. Leave me to scrounge for a living best I know to. I have mores. I just can't afford them sometimes. So I do without. Some might think. Some might say. There's the Pure~ and there is Also the varieties. Recognizing either alone does not necessarily promote awareness of Both.

"2. Integrity of the Art-

Taijiquan is known as a health dance offered with yoga and salad shooters. Why? Becuase its an easy target market for people with little skill and big dollar signs in there eyes. Older people,or younger "counterculture" people. Its all too easy, and this has caused the availabiity of the real art of taijiquan to be severely injured, as well as the supply/demand for it."

Since All T'ai Chi Ch'uan does not have acupunture points for fighting like you learned (were taught). And you seem to put-down T'ai Chi Ch'uan schools that don't include it~. You are saying that how you learned it is Correct. Not T'ai Chi Ch'uan itself. But what you understand (were taught) that to be. Interesting...

" Im sure its that way for other arts, how would the Karate or hard style folks feel if people just taught all stances and kata without any real techniques, principle of movement, applications, reality drills, sensitivity drills..etc.? They would feel like nothing...wait most Karate and Hard style schools qualify for the above definition. I supose they can always fall back on the obvious heath benifits of doing excersize in general (expensive workout), and the mental benifits of concentration, and of course coordination. But then again they dont just sell it as that..see #1 again. At least Billy Blanksis up front about it. "

Those things are not to be sold. I think that you are not aware that The Chinese seemed to teach without teaching. That there was more than the lessons or that the lessons were on-going. But the student wasn't told. People are goal oriented. If they hear this is how it's supposed to be, they will try to make it that way. The student that Knows too much interferres with 's own learning. The teacher gives what the student can absorb. When that has been absorbed, the teacher gives more, when the Student is ready...not when the Student Wants or thinks 's ready for more. People learn in different ways. A teacher might teach the cirriculum in a different order or with a variation or addition but all to further the student. This is a Pure of Instruction in Chinese Kung-Fu. The person who takes-up a fighting Kung-Fu needs to know for what they are looking. If they need any of what you mention drills, conditining... they will find it for themselves or it will come to them as a necessity of their training. Kung-Fu is stances, Form and practice. Traditionally, the student is industrious and does not lack, if also staying with stances, Form and practice.


"So what do we do about it?
1. Honesty-we be honest with ourselves first, then we share our views freely with the community. Go to the school and confront the instructor about the "self-defense" sign i n The window, do it politely and ask real questions that you know he will not be able to answer, then present better answers (in front of the students) in a nice respectfull manner. Then Tell him you dont feel he represents your art well, and you would like to know who certified him to teach self-defense. If he doesnt do your art it may be crossing the line a bit, but this is another discussion. The MA community has lost its credibility in this departement, we need to get it back."

It's focus is not to kill. But the tools and training potential allow for this, if there is a shift in focus. Self defense, it's there, somewhere. "Seek and ye shall find"-don't know from where. With more understanding and industriousness, people could find that for which they look within Tae Kwon Do. Perhaps.

"2. Art integrity-If you teach Taijiquan for example and cannot use it in alone in a fight then you should not be teaching any aspect of the art without informing your students you are not a fully qualified Taijiquan instructor, and that you only know half of the art at best. Ill let others debate on how to preseve the integrity of other arts as Im not as aware of the problems due to obvious Bias."

Again, this seems to be, not T'ai Chi Ch'uan. But what You learned T'ai Chi Ch'uan to be. The techniqes and ways...everything can be discovered in the forms because the forms are not there. They represent the concepts. Theoretically, the forms teach the concepts the concepts grasped the forms become hinderance to true application of T'ai Chi found with T'ai Chi Ch'uan.

[ewallace]

Until taiji starts making stickers for the rear window of the minivan or suv that says the name of the school, the year, and the kids name, it will never be as popular as TKD. There is a whole world of "Soccer Moms" to conquer out there.

[NeedsPractice]

If someone studies any art for 5 years or more and doesnt feel comfortable using it for self defense at a basic level at least they have no one to blame but themselves.
Let me add 2 clarifications
1- It may be a hard to learn , i.e tai chi chaun
2- As your training progresses especially after a few years you have an idea of what your skills are and its up to you to train harder , add things in your off time, speak to your teacher or find a new teacher.
So in other words if self defense is important to you, you should make the effort to learn it.
People also shouldn't live in a vacuum.
Yes you trust your sifu, sensei what have you but aslo talk to and observe other martial artists. If what you are learning holds any water , you will see alot of the same principles, just expressed in different ways in different arts. For me personally it was very reassuring to see different teachers who practice different arts and dont know each other teaching the same principles and ideas, although expressed differently through thier arts.