Gracie style = you die on the street?

[BJJISTHEBEST]

Look as you all know i am a bjj fanatic and that i believe in bjj effectiveness but recently i have been swamped with messages from people saying that if bjj was used on the street especially againast multiple attackers you would be gone and you know what i agree with that however i sincerely do not believe that any other style of kung fu will do any better than bjj on the streets.
Im going to propose a hypotheical to you kung fu guys out there lets just say you kung fu guys are confronted by multiple attackers and one of them takes you down then what do you do i know that most of you guys know nothing about the guard how to get back on your feet etc at least bjj will stand a better chance then any of you kung fu guys.
I am not critisizing kung fu i am just asking you guys out there what would you do if that situation arises and basically this thread is for you kung fu guys to criticize bjj say what is effective about it and what isnt effective about it on the streets .
But if bjj was against one on one in the street i truly believe bjj would wipe the other guys ass and that is the truth no one can deny it would do better than kung fu in general

[Fred Sanford]

BJJ sucks.

[Serpent]

5... 4... 3...


























(Bwaahaahaa! "Wipe the other guys ass!" Aahaaahaahaa!)

[wushu chik]

Go play with the other trolls, and leave the meaningfull stuff to us adults, OK??

Jeez.....

~Wen~

[TaoBoy]

Right on, sister.

Death to the trolls.

[Merryprankster]

I think I speak for all of us when I say:

SHUT THE **** UP!

[ewallace]

Those are the longest ****ing run-on sentences I have ever seen I highly recommend you study english before you study martial arts I hope you do well and summer is half way over so go get to the back to school specials so you can dress nice for school thank you and goodbye.

[KC Elbows]

I believe the original poster is speaking from experience. He has the scent of one who knows. BJJ, in his case, is ALL about wiping the other guy's @ss.

STREET THUG: Wipe that clean, boy!

BJJISTHEBEST: Yes sir!

[greendragon]

BJJ, what makes you think "kung Fu guys" don't learn ground fighting ? round yourself out and go learn some boxing or something. Then you won't need the toilet paper.

[ewallace]

Most of you probably know this by now, but for those that don't, BJJISTHEBEST probably IS as kung fu guy.

[Badger]

BJJISTHEBEST does not represent Brazilian JiuJitsu.

His name means Blow Job Joe is The Best...Because simply his name is Joe & likes to give Blow Jobs.


Hope that clears it up for everybody.


Badger

[KC Elbows]

Wait a second, does this mean that Ralek doesn't represent BJJ? What about Fred Sanford?

****, just who the heck IS representing BJJ?

There needs to be some sort of association to monitor and rank these BJJ trolls, for the future of the art.

[yenhoi]

The guard is a unwise position to want to manuver to on the ground in a street situation. Mount, side mount, 'combat guard"(?), knee on belly are much better ground positions to attempt to move into if you are taken down.


bjj doesnt fight in the streets, people do.

[Merryprankster]

Greendragon--I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that you learn groundfighting in your KF style like I learn punching and kicking at BJJ.

[Badger]

Ralek is part of the Blow Job Joe cult as well.

So are the others...though I'm not sure about Fred Sanford.

Those who represent Brazilian JiuJitsu are: Me, MerryPrankster, Ryu & his other brother Ryu.



Badger

[Choke]

What makes BJJ guys think that kung Fu has no grapling/takedowns/ground fighting?
I'll let them in on it shall I? It does! Dam now I've gone and done it......

:rolleyes:


Day Sut

[ewallace]

I think most REAL bjj guys do realize that KF has ground fighting. It's just not it's specialty. You don't really think of a reputable itallian restaraunt for it's hamburger's, even though they usually have them on the kids menu.

[Badger]

Ever eat the fried chicken at Panchos???





Badger

[Felipe Bido]

The Gracies would choke the streets...one by one.

[Choke]

I totaly agree. It just gets to me when people talk like a guy who does a kung fu system will have completely no clue when it comes to fighting in a grapling/on the ground situation.
Some systems are more complete or cover the 4 fighting ranges better than others.

Anywho.

[HuangKaiVun]

BJJISTHEBEST, I'm a kung fu guy who trains multiple attackers and gets knocked down.

This is how it goes in kung fu: You get knocked down, you either get up or take guys down with you. Oh, and grab weapons around you if you can.

You just haven't seen REAL kung fu yet.

[Brad Souders]

why can't i represent BJJ too :(

[Kempo Guy]

Since this is a KF forum, I won't waste you time too much on this but I think people fail to realize that BJJ is more than just groundfighting, as they (at least Gracie JJ) actually have a curriculum that stresses self-defense. However, I have to say many of the BJJ schools seems to focus on the sporting aspects with a disregard for the self-defense aspects (i.e. only concentrate on the rolling).

FWIW, I do take some BJJ classes (along with some wrestling) to supplement my other training, but the ground is the last place I would want to be in a fight. However, if I do get taken to the ground, hopefully I will be able to maneuver to get back up to my feet. This is the primary reason for me learning BJJ...

Later,
KG

[Merryprankster]

Choke, name me one Kung Fu System devoted to groundfighting. Not a form within a system and not a mythical system you once heard of but you're not sure exists.


Saying you learn groundfighting in CMA is like saying you take Boxing for the kicks or TKD for its amazing handwork, or you go to McDonalds for the fine Haute Cuisine. :rolleyes:

Once again, I'm not an advocate for BJJ as the ultimate supreme martial art--but lets call a spade a spade. A takedown or two and a choke or three and a joint break or 4 do not a system make. It's nice, it's interesting...but if you spend 85% of your time learning to fight on your feet, the "us to, us to," thing doesn't fly.

Let's all stop pretending that each system has everything. Instead, why don't we recognize there are specialties and weaknesses in each, and (novel concept coming up!) not get all bent out of shape if somebody suggests that fact. :eek:

[Badger]

Which BJJ are you talking about: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu or Blow Job Joe???


If you want to represent Brazilian JJ you must:
1. Show a healthy respect for other arts.
2. Leave your ego at the door.
3. like cheese.



Badger

[Badger]

Just last week one of my friends ate a chicken sandwich at Joe's Crab Shack.

Why would ANYONE get a chicken sandwich at a place that has delicious seafood?????

Would you order shrimp at Chick-fil-A???????




Badger

[kungfu cowboy]

Merryprankster wrote:
Let's all stop pretending that each system has everything. Instead, why don't we recognize there are specialties and weaknesses in each, and (novel concept coming up!) not get all bent out of shape if somebody suggests that fact


Makes sense to me!

[ewallace]

****it MP stop copying my analogies.

Badger - You really suck. You are solely responsible for me not eating the food I brought with me for lunch yesterday(well, yesterday I didn't eat it because my co-worker wanted to go to lunch, and I wanted to ride in his new z06 vette. So your off the hook for yesterday). You know how I feel about chick-fil-a. ****. I gotta go.

As for the question, I'll ****in order anything from chick-fil-a.

[Kope]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Choke, name me one Kung Fu System devoted to groundfighting.

"Devoted to?" Doesn't exist. But then, that's sort of the point. It's one thing to say that a CMA is inferior to BJJ in a contest built for grappling, like, say, a UFC match. It is another thing to say that a CMA is inferior to BJJ because once you end up on the ground (as many fights do) you're screwed.

Most CMA's teach a great deal of grappling and groundwork. Sure, it's not the focus of the art. But saying that the art doesn't contain a well rounded set of techniques and skills developed to address the need of groundfighting is simply ignorant.

Frankly - asking for a CMA 'devoted to' groundfighting is a straw-man.


Originally posted by Merryprankster

Saying you learn groundfighting in CMA is like saying you take Boxing for the kicks or TKD for its amazing handwork, or you go to McDonalds for the fine Haute Cuisine. :rolleyes:


No, it's not like that at all. No one is saying that they study CMA for the ground fighting. We are saying that we learn ground fighting in CMAs. Take a look at your sentence structure above.

HINT: grammatical inconsistencies frequently point to a rhetorical inconsistency!

saying [subject] [obtains result] [from action]

IS NOT THE SAME AS

saying [subject][does action][to obtain result]

The first says that the result obtains, the second says that the result is intended - and implies that it is intended as a primary result.

Understand that difference and you'll go a long way to understanding why your argument is simply WRONG! You're point may not be, I'm ignoring your point for the moment, since I'm not sure what it is. But the argument you're trying to use to get there is intrinsically flawed.



Originally posted by Merryprankster

Once again, I'm not an advocate for BJJ as the ultimate supreme martial art--but lets call a spade a spade. A takedown or two and a choke or three and a joint break or 4 do not a system make. It's nice, it's interesting...but if you spend 85% of your time learning to fight on your feet, the "us to, us to," thing doesn't fly.


Why doesn't it? We're not saying that we're as good at ground fighting as someone who spends all their training time doing it. We're saying that there are ground fighting techniques that are part of our systems and that they are sufficient to deal with what we feel we'll need in a street fight.

And btw, my school teaches 108 grappling techniques, and their reversals. It's a bit more than "a joint break or 4."

I'll put money (well, actually I do, every time I pay my tuition) that it's a tad more complete and comprehensive than some bjj school where the instructor got their black belt after a whole 3 or 4 years of study.




Originally posted by Merryprankster

Let's all stop pretending that each system has everything. Instead, why don't we recognize there are specialties and weaknesses in each, and (novel concept coming up!) not get all bent out of shape if somebody suggests that fact. :eek: [B]

Is a BJJ practitioner, well instructed by an experience instructor (one of the whole 40 or so folks above 5th faixa preta) better at ground fighting than a well instructed CMA practitioner of similar experience? Sure.

Can the BJJ practitioner handle half of what that same CMA practitioner can? Maybe -- but not within the confines of their style!

A CMA practitioner from a quality school with 4 or 5 years experience is going to be a **** site better off in a street fight with multiple opponents than a BJJ practioner from a quality school in the same situation -- even if the fight ends up on the ground.

[Merryprankster]

First, can the rhetorical arguments--I don't buy into logical positivism and the resultant emphasis on languistic analysis so dissecting sentence structure is only going to **** me off.

Learn to read a little within context rather than breaking down the sentence and we'll get moving a lot more smoothly.

Secondly, can the don't want to be on the ground/multiple attackers argument, and stick with the point here. I don't care who is better prepared for a streetfight--it's open for debate, but certainly wasn't the point. Nice side tangent but hardly the issue at hand. You're arguing against a point I wasn't making.

Choke stated that CMA's learn takedowns and chokes. Wonderful. I'm happy for him, and every other CMA guy out there in a non-grappling oriented system that thinks this makes them proficient.

To argue they understand groundfighting because of that is absurd. I have some exposure to Muay Thai, but I don't pretend to be proficient at it. So to say "Oh, we learn that too..." Forget it. That's the difference between playing chopsticks on the piano and a professional concert pianist.

Here's the deal--BJJ IS a groundfighting system. End of story. That's what it is, that's what it's good at.

The 108 grappling maneuvers and the escapes you've picked up are well and good. I don't care. There's a big difference between doing something ALL THE TIME, and not. An experienced BJJer does groundfighting practice in and practice out. I don't expect a strict BJJer to be particularly good trying to punch or kick somebody. It's not emphasized or practiced enough for them to be good at. They would have little understanding involved in timing, movement, counterpunching, etc... Similarly, a CMA guy might know what an armbar basically is, but have a far less comprehensive understanding of how to hit it, make it work, apply it from different positions, the body mechanics involved in it, etc.


I'll put money (well, actually I do, every time I pay my tuition) that it's a tad more complete and comprehensive than some bjj school where the instructor got their black belt after a whole 3 or 4 years of study.

This statement only shows that you are completely ignorant of what a black belt in BJJ entails. There are two people I can think of off the top of my head that got their black belt in "3 or 4," years. One is BJ Penn, who, aside from being a gifted athlete, lived with Rickson Gracie, and with his parent's support, trained as though it were a 9-5 job for 6 days a year. The other is a man who was recruited NFL caliber talent before seven knee surgeries sidelined him.

More often, it takes 7-10 years, if you are reasonably gifted, diligent, and train around 5-6 days per week for about 2-3 hours a day, to get your black belt. I JUST got promoted to purple belt, had a prior wrestling background, and I've been doing this for a little over 2.5 years on the 5-6 days per week, 2-3 hours per day training schedule.

Have we reached an understanding? Are we going to drop the formal rules of rhetoric or are we going to sit around and discuss straw men, red herrings, and the fallacy of the dilemma? This is an internet forum, not debate club. I might remind you, however, that "missing the point," is one of the classic rhetorical fallacies....

Poke around a little bit and I think you'll find I'm hardly a troll here, but that I do have a low tolerance for "silliness" to use a polite term.

[Gabriel]

"****, just who the heck IS representing BJJ? "

I am, along with clear jelly jelatin, and automatic pancake machines.

*presents card*

[Kope]

Here's the deal--BJJ IS a groundfighting system. End of story. That's what it is, that's what it's good at.


Doh.

That's kind of the point, isn't it . . .

Many CMAs are complete fighting systems.
BJJ is a ground fighting system only.

Thanks for agreeing.

Move along, nothing more to see here . . .

[Spirit Writer]

What have the gracies done for me lately ... ooh, oooh, oooh, yea.

No, seriously, with all do respect, BJJ is dead. It had its hey day 10 years ago against "black belts" who had their heads and reality handed to them when they faced somene who actually practiced hwat they preached. For that, I credit the BJJ practioner, the boxer, the wrestler. They practice how they play.

But, the rest of the world has woken up (caught on). I think BJJ played an important role in waking up serioues MA, but it is by no means supperior. No style is, no style is complete. But BJJ is lacking in many areas, and for the street, it lacks right from the get go as far as aproach -- never go down willingly.

You'll say you don't -- I know you guys -- but you do, you seek contact then shoot.

Multiple apponants? Run. Deal with one, two if he's in you way, and go. Use one for a shield, then go. Take out your knife, do you have that in BJJ, and hopefully by some time and run. Cut one guy and run. Do soemthing, and run. DO NOT GO TO THE GROUND.

[Kempo Guy]

Merryprankster,

I agree with your post. Although I'm a BJJ newbie and train only three days a week for about 3 hours (in BJJ)... Out of curiosity, do you train/supplement your BJJ with other arts? I would imagine you don't since you train 5-6 days per week in BJJ.

KG

[Merryprankster]

Spirit Writer--BJJ is not dead. However, the wierd idea that some people had--that all you needed was BJJ, has been soundly thrashed.

BJJ is a great art to either start in or have as a second or third thing to learn, but it's hardly the end all/be all.

Secondly Spirit, this is the self-defense game of BJJ-- assume the worst--that you are taken down.

Stand-up in base and run if there is enough distance.

Create that distance if the guy is not closing, and then stand up in base.

If the guy has opted to come forward, reverse the position and come up top.

Knee on belly, couple whacks in the face while looking around, soccer kick/boot stomp to the head and run like hell.

Simple. I might note--knee on belly is EASIER to stand up from than ANY other ground position, and a hell of a lot faster than flailing about like a seizure victim while trying to stand.

Kempo Guy, I also box around 10-12 times a month. I occasionally work out with an MT coach who's a buddy of mine, but it's mostly so I can teach his guys to clinch and to practice kick defenses.

[Ryu]

"First, can the rhetorical arguments--I don't buy into logical positivism and the resultant emphasis on languistic analysis so dissecting sentence structure "

:( Man.... MerryPrankster is now officially my hero in the debate department. I would tap out just from hearing words like this. :D


I don't think what is being said is that KF does not have grappling techniques. (My training partner who did a lot of N. Shaolin kung fu knew quite a bit of throws, chin na locks, etc.)
But he had to learn the details of being able to survive in a groundfight with someone who knew groundfighting to a decent degree. He rolls constantly now because BJJ addresses the groundfight more effectively then the techniques he had already known.
That doesn't mean KF doesn't have grappling moves, or that they're "crap" or anything else. But it does mean that BJJ probably has a more effective "lock" on the concept of groundfighting by means of positional dominance, reversals, submission holds/breaks, groundpounding, etc.

Ryu

[ewallace]

What a close-minded post Ryu. Geez you wonder why everyone around here thinks MMA guys are *******s.

[ewallace]

You owe me $5.27 for CFA. Thank you. It was delicious.

[Black Jack]

ewallace,

Can I ask what was closed minded about it??

I thought it was pretty straight forward but I could of missed your viewpoint.

Ryu please feel free to correct me but what I believe you were stating is that if a person wants to get the best technical ground grappling/ground fighting instruction then one would be best to take a look at a set system that works deeply in those elements.

I see a lot of sense in that but IMHO when two combatants cross hands or really fight it out on the street, its really the man and not the system, systems are intangible, people are real.

[ewallace]

Can I ask what was closed minded about it??
Sure. I was being a wisenhiemer.

[Spirit Writer]

No doubt BJJ is well versed, perhaps the most eloquent, when it comes to the ground. But I have to take note of "assume the worst--that you are taken down. "

This would lead one to believe that BJJ only goes down as a last resort. Now, using the measure of BJJ sucess, NHB, I would like to revist that. Exhibit A: H Gracie staying on his back during the match with the Japanese fellow as his apponant begged for him to stand so he could continue his beating. Even kicking him like a dog and doing cartwheels over him.

Now, he was not forced to the ground in that situation, he chose it. So frustrated was he, that he spat at his appoant (very poor taiste and a bad example of sportmanship and of his dojo). My point, one plays how they practice.

I actually think learning BJJ will hurt a serious Chinese martial artist. Why? Because the ground becomes an option then. Yes, it is, but take Hsing-I. Stepping backward is always a potentialoty, but not an potion. Liike fighting on a cliff's edge, there is only forward. When someone shoots, I believe tryong to play their game, looking for a hold, is a weakness, simply beat the man. If he can touch you, he should be hitting you. A nice uppercut (several) is a simple affective defense against a shooter.

If it goes to the ground, then play your game either on your back (amazing how so many have no power when punching from their back, they just massage the other;s back) or from on top.

Just a 2 cents alternative mindset.

[Black Jack]

ewallace,

Ahhh....your no fun ya Jerk.:D

[Badger]

check your private messages!






Badger

[Knifefighter]

Over the last eight years, I have done quite a bit of work in combining the ground game of BJJ with knifefighting. You might be surprised at how BJJ ground strategies can be applied on the street against multiple opponents- especially if you have a blade.

[ewallace]

Yeah, I get accused of being too serious alot. But it's usually from candy ass folks like Black Jack. What a wanker.

[Black Jack]

ewallace,

Nothin but steers and queers in texas....:eek:

Knifefighter,

Weird, I was just talking about something like this with a buddy, talking about grappling and prison shanking tactics/situations.

I think that a very dangerous person would be one that combined a practical street wrestling/grappling background with knifework and fighting dirty tricks. IMHO I mean standup grappling, not intricate chin-na locking, but larger compound standup principles, and certain takedowns coupled with positional strategy, distraction and direct ruthlessness.

Sounds like a interesting experiment. I have worked on one using a headhold and I enjoy a tactic called the bulldog or prison yard rush.

[ewallace]

Black Jack - I got your steer.


Actually, I remember JWT saying that he found the ground a very safe place to be when he was sparring against two guys at the same time. He admitted being wrong when he blasted that idea a year or so before that happened.

[mantiskilla]

Look, I dont by any means think I know everything, or even a lot , but Im at home sick, and this thread is annoying me. So...do you try and outrun a grizzly, or climb a tree, play dead etc? Do you try and outswim a shark, or just get out of the water ? Do you try and dunk on Shaquille O'Neil, or shoot outside? Do you try and outpunch a western boxer, or use your feet, takedown? Do you try and outgrapple a grappler, or stay on your feet? If someone who has studied bjj the same amount of time, with the same intensity as I have studied Kung fu, gets me on the ground and cant get the advantage, then something is wrong. Why go toward someones strength? Whatever. Who gives a f***. :rolleyes:
________
Ipad guide (http://ipadguides.info)

[Fred Sanford]

Wait a second, does this mean that Ralek doesn't represent BJJ? What about Fred Sanford?

I ain't no BJJ troll. I study kung fu. It just so happens that I think the majority of kung fu peeps are worthless and weak.

[anton]

What are the requirements for becoming a good Blow Job Joe student? And more importantly where does one sign up?

[TaoBoy]

Hasn't this whole topic been done to death?
Isn't it amazing how one silly little troll can start such a long thread?
Where did MerryPrankster study English?
What do they put in ewallace's water?

These question and more will be answered in the next episode of "BJJ vs CMA"...

[LEGEND]

SIMON: After reading the performance between KOPE and MERRYPRANKSTER. I have to say to KOPE...unfortunately to consider you as an AMERICAN MARTIAL ARTIST IDOL would be a disaster! The fact that u stated that BJJ stylist gets their BB in 4 years states the ignorance.

PAULA: U don't have to take that KOPE. But what u should take is BJJ. Try those 108 ground fighting techs...might work on the MOOK JONG...but try it on a resisting opponent.

The Search for an AMERICAN MARTIAL ARTIST IDOL continues...

[LEGEND]

Mantiskilla...does that CROSSTRAIN are more aware of how to defeat those that do not!

[Braden]

heh heh heh he said logical positivism heh

What do you mean by groundfighting? Do you mean pins and flowing into a submission from standing technique, or do you mean positional dominance/escapes and sweeps combined with ground submissions?

FWIW I'm an avid kungfu fan and have looked sincerely for it, but have never seen any of the latter in CMAs. Just FWIW with regards to issues brought up in this thread.

Similarly FWIW, studying BJJ doesn't mean you advocate going to the ground, even if every single other BJJ practitioner does. Just again, with regards to issues brought up in this thread.

[Ryu]

Black Jack, I definitely agree that a person makes the difference in the art. However, I do feel that certain arts can address things more properly then another. Especially if they specialize in it. So in that sense, even if you're a person who's "not the best practitioner" of a martial art..... you can maybe at least get some kind of an advantage from techniques that specialize in certain areas over others...

but then again some people, whether it be a lazy attitude to hard training or just physical genetics, just can't use techniques whether they be kung fu or BJJ so...... :)

Ryu

[MA fanatic]

I think we may be argueing with a highschool kid here.
But he raises an interesting topic. Let me start by saying what BJJ lacks (BTW, most of the top bjj guys...who truly know the sport, would agree).
BJJ's stand up skill are laughable. True, bjj fighters like Renzo, Rickson, Mario Sperry, Ralph Gracie, etc. etc. have displayed eccelent stand up skills. But, those are exceptions and not the rule. Also, most of these guys have cross trained in boxing and Muay Thai. I have seen plenty of bjj guys training in shooto and Muay Thai down in my gym. My bjj instructor trains in Brazil several times a year (spends about 4 months out of year there), but also studies Judo and boxing.
BJJ lacks any decent self defense skills. Lets face it, BJJ practitioners want to take you to the ground. The ground is the last place you'd want to be in an altercation with a gang banger who has several friends. Oh, and a knife can certainly pass a guard.
BJJ has self defense techniques from old Japanese jj, which have been watered down for years. No weapons self defense skills.
BJJ's success on the street, depends heavily on the turain.

As for multiple apponents, this is not a topic of style. It's an issue of training. I have seen instructors (wont mention names...once got into trouble for doing that though I meant well) who actually drill grappling against multiple apponents. I have also seen instructors who have students put on grappling gloves and spar full contact against more than one apponent, and if the fight went to the ground, so be it. The object was to last and escape. My shooto instructor was a purple belt under J.J. Machado, and he not only had us grapple multiple people, he had us grapple with kali sticks from time to time (a drill he learned while training under Dan Inosanto for several years). Across the street from where I live is a Kung Fu school which produces some of the best kickboxers in town. I have seen them spar full contact against multiple apponents on occasion. I have also seen bjj schools which only teach ground work (mostly starting from knees on the ground...NOT GOOD!!!). I have seen BJJ schools only teach Gi grappling. I have seen BJJ schools which only stress sport bjj point scoring.

Lets face it, on the street there is no such thing as the open guard. On the street, where punching are a factor, most sport bjj techniques will fail. Some bjj schools are as one dementional as some Kung Fu schools. One just has to find quality instruction. The worst master is the one who says that his art is the best, and wont listen to reason. I prefer to train from instructors who konw what they lack and compensate for their weaknesses.
MA fanatic

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by MA fanatic

BJJ has self defense techniques from old Japanese jj, which have been watered down for years. No weapons self defense skills.
BJJ's success on the street, depends heavily on the turain.
MA fanatic

What are you talking about man? If you train BJJ you're really training in GJJ and the Gracie system, whether it be Machado, Caique, or whoever. If you learned real BJJ then you learned various knife, gun and club disarms. Who do you train BJJ under? Every BJJ beginner of Gracie lineage (which is every BJJ player) learns basic standing self defense. There are strikes included and even side kicks, so what are you spouting?

That's the thing about these d u m b a s s forums. Everybody claims this and that, but they don't know s h i t from shinola! They are usually speculating about something that they have a "feeling" about. No use of executive brain function, just emotional banter and echoing! Blind me with science and facts geniuses. I swear to God that I'll keep dissin' you fools, 'cause that's what Reality implores me to do.

If you stick with any decent MA or combat sport for a significant amount of time (3+ times/week, 1.5 hrs each session, for 5+ years), no Joe Blow average street sucker could hang with you; if push came to shove! Most hardcore fighters will kick a hobbyists arse any day of the week. Royce proved this in the first UFCs. I'll be the first to tell you that the quality of opponents wasn't necessarily top notch, and that it was a way for Rorion to advertise his family's art to the world, but not one of you guys could hang with Ken Shamrock, Shooto champ days, or now. Royce made very quick work of him in their first fight, and he was severly outmatched by Shamrock in the size and strength department. One was a master and the other a perpetual journeyman who relied on his physicality and average knowledge of NHB fighting. That's it end of discussion. Please shut your traps.

BTW, Royce will be fighting in a duel Pride/K1 event in Tokyo on Sept.28. The guy he is fighting is bigger than him and is an olympic judo gold medalist. It is strictly submission grappling; no face strikes (strikes in general?) allowed. This will settle the Judo vs. BJJ debate. They are similar, but then again there are significant differences in approach. It will be interesting.

[mantiskilla]

OK. Let me ask you this:Can you cross train to the point that you are familiar with anything that someone could possibly throw at you? Will you then be any good at any of them, or a master of none? How about you make them fight your fight? Its not that I completely disagree with you, but Im coming from a different point of view. Instead of worrying about what the opponent is going to do, make them worry about what your going to do! If you have a brain tumor, are you going to let your pcp operate, or a neurosurgeon? :)
BTW Im not taking sides for or against bjj. I study kung fu, but I respect all styles and anyone who trains their ass off!
Well, most styles:rolleyes:
________
Ass Sex (http://www.****tube.com/categories/5/ass/videos/1)

[MA fanatic]

First of all, I have never stated anything negative against the Gracie family and/or any members of them. I am familiar, as I'm sure everyone on this forum, that Brazilian Jiujitsu originated with the Gracie family. As a matter of fact, it is an evolving art. New stradegies and techniques are being developed and perfect every year. When I talked about my instructor, I simply mentioned the name Machado because that is where he trained. I said nothing but good things about the guy. Since it wasn't part of my point, I didn't want to get into the family relations between Machados and their cousins the Gracies. I have posted numerous times that the Gracie system is made up of sport jiujitsu, gi and no gi grappling, self defense, and vale tudo training. I have also posted numerous times that members of the Gracie family have been in confrontations on the street, and have proved that their style works. I also posted about a member of the Gracie family who successfully fended off 5 attackers (caught on tape). My point was, if you reread what I wrote, is that all arts have holes. Gracie knife defenses, gun defenses, and club defenses are not top notch. There are arts who specialize in that area with techniques light years ahead of BJJ (which did in fact get those techniques from jj). I wouldn't go to a BJJ school to learn knife defenses, no more than you would pay a wing chun master to teach you his ground grappling skills. As for Royce, the man is a great fighter. This has nothing to do with him.
MA fanatic

[MA fanatic]

I think someone misunderstood my point about Royce's measuring kick against Shamrock. In the second fight, Shamrock (who outweight Royce by 30lbs...if not more), couldn't tap our a 176lb guy wearing a gi. The entire fight was both of them swinging on the ground. Had the fight continued, most likely Shamrock would have won. The first time both met, Shamrock was King of Pancrase in Japan, and was in fact easily defeated via choke from Royce (he went for an ankle crank which Royce escaped). But, my post had nothing to do with the outcome of the fight or who was the better man. In the second fight Shamrock counter hit Royce just as Royce tried to measure out a shooting distance. Does that mean that Royce would lose in other fights? NO. I'm sure he's smart enough to know which fighter has a clue about such techniques and which fighter does not. I must say that Royce proved one important thing to the American Martial Arts community: If two equally skilled people meet one trained in pure grappling and one in pure striking, grappler will win.
MA fanatic

[shinbushi]

Originally posted by omegapoint

BTW, Royce will be fighting in a duel Pride/K1 event in Tokyo on Sept.28. The guy he is fighting is bigger than him and is an olympic judo gold medalist. It is strictly submission grappling; no face strikes (strikes in general?) allowed. This will settle the Judo vs. BJJ debate. They are similar, but then again there are significant differences in approach. It will be interesting.
Yes but every time Royce fight it has to be under HIS rules. Why cannot he just fight normal Pride rules. I love the new rules. Also it was brought up on the E-budo judo forum (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12894) that this fight might be a work

[Felipe Bido]

This will settle the Judo vs. BJJ debate.


No, no...this will settle the "Royce Vs. a Judo Guy" debate.

[KC Elbows]

There's a debate? Which thread is it on?

[Felipe Bido]

No debate :)

What I meant was, that the skill is in the person, not the style.

[KC Elbows]

:D

I was kidding, as there are like forty threads of the debate.:)

[Felipe Bido]

I should've known...silly me :p

[Tigerstyle]

"This will settle the Judo vs. BJJ debate.

No, no...this will settle the "Royce Vs. a Judo Guy" debate."

Actually Felipe,
I think this would only solve the "Royce vs. a Judo guy, in a single given match, on a single given night, with a given set of rules" debate (results may vary).

[Tigerstyle]

"Let me ask you this:Can you cross train to the point that you are familiar with anything that someone could possibly throw at you? Will you then be any good at any of them, or a master of none? How about you make them fight your fight? Its not that I completely disagree with you, but Im coming from a different point of view. Instead of worrying about what the opponent is going to do, make them worry about what your going to do! If you have a brain tumor, are you going to let your pcp operate, or a neurosurgeon?"

mantiskilla,
IMHO, I think your questions oppose what some (not all, of course :) ) people say of their kung fu style (ex. "I study a complete style. We address striking, locking, groundwork, weapons, multi opponents, etc. We train to be ready for a variety of situations, etc.").

At the same time, your questions support what some people (not all, of course :) ) say of their cross training ethic (ex. "My base style is BJJ. I cross train in Muay Thai to supplement my striking training. I want to be versed in striking enough to be able to control the fight on my terms.")

Overall though, I think what it supports most (again IMHO) is good MA training (maximizing your strengths while minimizing your weaknesses, not specific to any style).


BTW: I would say this quote - "If you have a brain tumor, are you going to let your pcp operate, or a neurosurgeon?", is very much like asking, "If you saw a fight between 2 guys go to the ground, would you think the fighter trained with the most overall skill will win, or the one specialized in ground fighting?

[Tigerstyle]

1) Looking at BJJISTHEBEST's post, it would appear that he never "submits" to proper capitalization and punctuation. :p

2) Why do so many people use Royce (or any) Gracie as the only example of what a grappler/groundfighter does or would do? Is there no one else that can be used support/oppose an opinion?

3) Also, why is Sakuraba the constant "evidence" of BJJ in decline? Isn't he a grappler (lots of wrestling and submission wrestling exp.) that is cross-trained in striking? (For the record, Sak is one of my heroes :p , and IMHO one of the reasons that he does so well in competition is that he appears as if he's not afraid to fail. He'll improvise with the most outrageous technique, but it looks so easy for him because he does it with full commitment and no hesitation.)


Sorry, just my rants (everyone else gets to have one) :D

[Braden]

omegapoint

"That's the thing about these d u m b a s s forums. Everybody claims this and that, but they don't know s h i t from shinola! They are usually speculating about something that they have a "feeling" about. No use of executive brain function, just emotional banter and echoing! Blind me with science and facts geniuses. I swear to God that I'll keep dissin' you fools, 'cause that's what Reality implores me to do."

Maybe people on these forums just keep getting confused, like you do when talking specifics about your med school and spec ops training. We all get confused, right? No biggie.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=14016

[Spirit Writer]

Learn how to use your body at its greatest potential, not through weight training, but by a study of human mechanics (plus chi never hurt) then it doesn't matter. With sharp, short power: who can grab and control you, who can collapse you.

The how and where (groung/feet) is inconsequential. White or black, check mate is check mate. Does it matter if its a rook or a queen? Better is better, smarter is smarter.

[ewallace]

Where's the smiliey icon that has a hand over the bottom half of the face, as if it was Y A W N I N G ?