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View Full Version : OT: US planning to recruit one in 24 Americans as citizen spies



Reima Kostaja
07-18-2002, 01:40 AM
Well, what do you think of this?

from The Sydney Morning Herald :

US planning to recruit one in 24 Americans as citizen spies

By Ritt Goldstein


The Bush Administration aims to recruit millions of United States citizens as domestic informants in a program likely to alarm civil liberties groups.

The Terrorism Information and Prevention System, or TIPS, means the US will have a higher percentage of citizen informants than the former East Germany through the infamous Stasi secret police. The program would use a minimum of 4 per cent of Americans to report "suspicious activity".

Civil liberties groups have already warned that, with the passage earlier this year of the Patriot Act, there is potential for abusive, large-scale investigations of US citizens.

As with the Patriot Act, TIPS is being pursued as part of the so-called war against terrorism. It is a Department of Justice project.

Highlighting the scope of the surveillance network, TIPS volunteers are being recruited primarily from among those whose work provides access to homes, businesses or transport systems. Letter carriers, utility employees, truck drivers and train conductors are among those named as targeted recruits.

A pilot program, described on the government Web site www.citizencorps.gov, is scheduled to start next month in 10 cities, with 1 million informants participating in the first stage. Assuming the program is initiated in the 10 largest US cities, that will be 1 million informants for a total population of almost 24 million, or one in 24 people.

Historically, informant systems have been the tools of non-democratic states. According to a 1992 report by Harvard University's Project on Justice, the accuracy of informant reports is problematic, with some informants having embellished the truth, and others suspected of having fabricated their reports.

Present Justice Department procedures mean that informant reports will enter databases for future reference and/or action. The information will then be broadly available within the department, related agencies and local police forces. The targeted individual will remain unaware of the existence of the report and of its contents.

The Patriot Act already provides for a person's home to be searched without that person being informed that a search was ever performed, or of any surveillance devices that were implanted.

At state and local levels the TIPS program will be co-ordinated by the Federal Emergency Management Agency, which

was given sweeping new powers, including internment, as part of the Reagan Administration's national security initiatives. Many key figures of the Reagan era are part of the Bush Administration.

The creation of a US "shadow government", operating in secret, was another Reagan national security initiative.

kungfu cowboy
07-18-2002, 04:28 AM
That's gay, that's dumb, that's stupid. Down with planet Earth! Too many idiots!

KC Elbows
07-18-2002, 05:35 AM
I'm reporting both of you.

Repulsive Monkey
07-18-2002, 05:39 AM
Its nice to know though that idiocy has no bounds and that even governments can show us their true colours when it comes to paranoia and plain ignorance.

kungfu cowboy
07-18-2002, 06:03 AM
20-40 years ago, many of those in government now were nerds in high school then. Think about it...

rogue
07-18-2002, 06:04 AM
Much ado about nothing. Unofficially the US Postal Service (aka mailmen) have been used for years to report on this kind of thing. For example mail carriers have helped Child Protective Services by reporting cases of chronic child abuse that they've witnessed.

Personally I don't have a problem with the TIPS program, but then I'm some sort of nut job that takes terrorism seriously.

BTW I believe that this little line exposes the writers agenda.
"The creation of a US "shadow government", operating in secret, was another Reagan national security initiative."

diego
07-18-2002, 06:24 AM
im down for just national security, but when i see things like they can search without a warrant and they dont have to tell you they did, due to the patroit act.

Then you hear news reports such as Bush was talking to a rep for brazil, and he said OH YOU HAVE NEGROES THIER TO:p

i read this awhile ago and maybe the writer was trying to clown bush for screwing up his english...But if he really didnt know that:rolleyes: We may have problems, I mean hes all about this axis of evil trying to mirror churchhill or whoever his idol is..He's talking all christian but wasnt he or isnt he a cokehead?.

And some of these christians actually believe in they god and they think they are killing lucifers angels by sniping peeps at abortion clinics. And its possible these types are running the show2!.

KC Elbows
07-18-2002, 06:43 AM
Perhaps it would help the governament if I just emailed them and mentioned that my neightbors don't know anything.

The reason I don't like this sort of stuff is it is very likely to be abused. Most of the calls will be morons who don't know jack, which will swamp the monitors and make it pretty unlikely that they will catch the legitemate ones, if any such calls come. Plus, it's not all that different than the sort of stuff people were expected to do in the cultural revolution, though there are differences.

My one neighbor mows the lawn with his lawnmower pointed towards my lawn at all times so that the clippings all go in my yard. I would say he's about the most likely person on my block to make use of this new program. He passed out on his lawn last Saturday at noon from being drunk. As soon as this gets passed, he'll probably call in and tell them I'm in the yard doing some sort of weird Taliban voodoo fighting thing with a sword.

Basically, it begs for another McCarthy.

By the same token, I'm still reporting you all.

Royal Dragon
07-18-2002, 07:21 AM
Think about it, f they are recruiting one in 24 where are they going to get the man power to keep track of it all?

I lay 10 to 1 the Talab gets into the program and starst reporting Us citizens for the fun f it.

Oh, by the way KC, I reported you. ;)

guohuen
07-18-2002, 07:50 AM
This is a good idea! I'll suggest some possible names for the group.
1.ton ton makute
2.pathet lao
3.kymer rouge
4.viet cong
5. I.R.A.
6. KGB
7. the brown shirts
8. waffen SS
9. gestapo
10. mafia
I hope they have cool uniforms! Like something in black with a silver skull and crossbones emblem. If I turn in my sister will I get a pair of Levis?


The Earth has no gravity!

ewallace
07-18-2002, 07:54 AM
I'll volunteer for the program if I can be assigned to provide the surveillance of a bunch of hot chicks.

Or midgets. As you all know I don't trust those little ****ers.

NorthernMantis
07-18-2002, 08:02 AM
What? It has the words RED SCARE written over it. As a non-natural citizen I protest it. Do you know how many innocent good immigrants who came to this country looking for a etter life will end up getting hurt for it.

ewallace
07-18-2002, 08:04 AM
The concept is really a decent idea. But if you look at the combined intelligence of people in general, it's really rather idiotic.

Royal Dragon
07-18-2002, 08:05 AM
That's it, yur repORTED!!!!

Suntzu
07-18-2002, 08:15 AM
Do you know how many innocent good immigrants who came to this country looking for a etter life will end up getting hurt for it.
if this is true...do u know how many natural citizens could be hurt form this… don’t dare disagree with popular opinion or be branded a traitor

The concept is really a decent idea. But if you look at the combined intelligence of people in general, it's really rather idiotic. nahhh… the concept is idiotic… my neighbors are nosy enuff as it is… and some of my co-workers are of the 700 club variety… I don’t need them actin all Rambo b'cuz I read The Final Call…

ewallace
07-18-2002, 08:18 AM
maybe if mohammed atta's neighbors were a little more nosey they would have discovered that his dumb ass was about to fly a plane into a building.

Suntzu
07-18-2002, 08:23 AM
maybe if mohammed atta's neighbors were a little more nosey they would have discovered that his dumb ass was about to fly a plane into a building. nahhh… they would have ended up dead… now see that's another thang… now u gonna have nosy chuck norris wannabes getting themselves killed ****in with the wrong people… but I guess they'll be considered 'national hero's'…

ewallace
07-18-2002, 08:25 AM
They probably would have been arested, let out on bond, and **** would have hit the fan on the 14th.

Suntzu
07-18-2002, 08:26 AM
:D
or Atta or who ever…would've called the cops on the neighbors and had them charged with tresspassing…

Suntzu
07-18-2002, 08:31 AM
And some of these christians actually believe in they god and they think they are killing lucifers angels by sniping peeps at abortion clinics. And its possible these types are running the show2!.
that's the scariest dammn thang I've read in a while… jihad vs. angels of god… buddah bless us all…:eek:

ewallace
07-18-2002, 08:32 AM
Anyone who results to violence in response to something that they don't agree with should be shot and killed.

kungfu cowboy
07-18-2002, 09:04 AM
This is taking reality based programming a little too far.

kungfu cowboy
07-18-2002, 09:10 AM
And some of these christians actually believe in they god and they think they are killing lucifers angels by sniping peeps at abortion clinics. And its possible these types are running the show2!.

Yeah, because even though it sounds %100 percent like, "Nuh-uh, no way!", just take a look at Jerry Springer's and other sensationalistic media ratings. It makes me want to poo.

dnc101
07-18-2002, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by rogue
Much ado about nothing. Unofficially the US Postal Service (aka mailmen) have been used for years to report on this kind of thing. For example mail carriers have helped Child Protective Services by reporting cases of chronic child abuse that they've witnessed.
Personally I don't have a problem with the TIPS program

The issue here is one of motives. Postal workers and others who report crimes and abuse now do so out of concern, patriotism, citizenship- for the most part good reasons. Those recruited by the government to spy on neighbors and fellow citizens do so out of a sense of self importance, a sense of belonging to some secrative government agency, a misplaced hero complex. Those who go for this are petty, self serving, hateful individuals with no morals. It has historically allways been this way, and it has allways been abused.

It has in every case led to an atmosphere of hatred and mistrust at every level of society. This is not much ado about nothing. It is outright victory for Osama and all terrorists. We are about to do to ourselves what all their bombs and fanatics could not do. That is to impose the worst kind of terror on ourselves, the fear of everyone you come into contact with on a daily basis.

KC Elbows
07-18-2002, 09:52 AM
Well said DNC.

Which of the forum members will be the rat? How about Law of the Fist, would we all like him being responsible for monitoring us? Maybe Ralek? BJJISTHEBEST? Who would make the best rat for KFO?

Remember, we are all thugs with potential ties to a communist government. Some of us are even Texans.

We need to be monitored!:rolleyes:

ewallace
07-18-2002, 09:56 AM
Texans have they own gummint.

rogue
07-18-2002, 10:14 AM
Please read carefully...

Highlighting the scope of the surveillance network, TIPS volunteers are being recruited primarily from among those whose work provides access to homes, businesses or transport systems. Letter carriers, utility employees, truck drivers and train conductors are among those named as targeted recruits.

Do you all have a neighborhood watch? I belong and if I see someone nosing around my neighborhood I'll nose around them. This is pretty much the samething. They're not looking for Joe Citizen to "spy" on their neighbors, they're looking to recruit those who are likely to see something odd during their normal work day.

kungfu cowboy
07-18-2002, 10:18 AM
We are about to do to ourselves what all their bombs and fanatics could not do. That is to impose the worst kind of terror on ourselves, the fear of everyone you come into contact with on a daily basis.

I can't believe the crap that goes on! Life eventually sucks a ss even if it seems like you are the grand poobah, and are given carte blanc! Why make up other utterly stupid stuff to make it suck even worse? We should all be pals. Eventually, we will realize that this can be accomplished through cloning, and this will last until all the antimatter in the universe goes on a killing spree.

I would like to go on some kind of a spree. They sound fun!

Hai_To
07-18-2002, 10:27 AM
The actions of the US government in the wake of 9/11 have some severe implications for personal freedom.

http://www.ccr-ny.org/whatsnew/usa_patriot_act.asp

In times of crisis the executive branch often engages in a power grab. The separation of powers was set up to prevent this. Unfortunately, terrorism fears has caused Congress to capitulate. Hopefully, the Supreme Court won't, though, personally, I doubt it.

KC Elbows
07-18-2002, 10:28 AM
Rogue,
It's the "primarily" in there that leaves the opening for such views. Anyway, what would be the point of the system if it didn't cover the internet?

I still don't like the idea of it. I understand your point, but I still think it's funky, and the utility guy will still be "joe citizen" spying on his neighbors. It makes him even less culpable, really, as the people he's spying on he probably won't ever see again.

kungfu cowboy
07-18-2002, 10:31 AM
Anyways, isn't one out of every twenty-four a little too many? There are sure lots of people according to the last census! Shouldn't it be more like out of every 240? Don't governments only last so long before they go kablooie anyway, according to some statistics done by some statistician anyway?

Suntzu
07-18-2002, 10:32 AM
neighborhood watch is some annoyin MF's too… if they flash me with that bright azz light again, they'll be lucky if I don’t start throwin slugs at they azzes…

but for real tho… 'huntin terrorist' and runnin 16 yr olds off the corner are 2 diff things… and I can see some of these patriotic Pat Robinson clones callin the feds on me cuz I gotta Muslim name and listen to Public Enemy:rolleyes:…

Gabriel
07-18-2002, 10:32 AM
What a bunch of horse patooey.

They turn our neighbours on us!

I heard the Bush administration is planning a war with China too :rolleyes:

ewallace
07-18-2002, 10:35 AM
What's the pay and do I get to carry a gun....when I'm not in Texas of course. :)

rogue
07-18-2002, 11:05 AM
So considering what we now know about how the 9/11 killers lived here in the States, and how many civilians that they were in contact with who went "yeah, it did seem kind of odd that he only wanted to know about _______" what would you all do instead of TIPS?

ewallace
07-18-2002, 11:07 AM
shoot first ask questions second.

KC Elbows
07-18-2002, 11:15 AM
Rogue, you and your darn "have an alternative" attitude.;)

Were I in charge, I might not do anything different than TIPS. Hell, I might not even announce that it was happening.

However, I don't really feel that TIPS is necessary. September 11 happened partly because no one thought it was possible. Now we know it's possible. We are more watchful.

Does Israel need to announce that certain citizens will now be watching for suspicious behavior? They may, but I think people are watchful enough there without adding a beaurocracy to the process.

In otherwords, the problem is the type of events that caused Sept. 11, or at least the lack of cognizance. You're asking do we have an alternate solution to TIPS, and I'm saying September 11 solved the problems of September 11th in one fell swoop. We are not untouchable, we know it, we are more watchful, TIPS is over the top(IMO).

No disrespect meant to your views, you are, as always, an excellent person to argue/debate with, and generally better informed than I, though that won't stop me from opening my mouth.:D

kungfu cowboy
07-18-2002, 11:28 AM
Hell, I might not even announce that it was happening.

And miss out on all the cautious (and free) "Hey, golly! I had better be an upstanding citizen, or they'll get me!" paranoia and other psychological impact just a rumor of such athing will have? It's fun!

Suntzu
07-18-2002, 11:42 AM
And miss out on all the cautious (and free) "Hey, golly! I had better be an upstanding citizen, or they'll get me!" paranoia and other psychological impact just a rumor of such athing will have? It's fun! tru… so tru… now that I KNOW my paranoid neighbors are watchin and could be on the feds payroll… my imagination… it just boogles the mind, how I could mess with them…

and as for neighborhood watch… bang up job they did with putting a stop to 'regular crime'…

Stacey
07-18-2002, 12:48 PM
thought police anyone?

This is what commie china does too. Great for controlling the populace by fear. Fear is swallowing our country.

When I suppose I'll jump on the bandwagon. Any spies against the american people (even if employed by our government) should be shot.

Black Jack
07-18-2002, 01:04 PM
I see no major problem "yet" with TIPS because it is confined to a already existing and defined section, they are not recruiting non-government employed neighbors and every day citizens, programs like TIPS are not really new, there used to be and I would bet still are certain public library programs that monitor certain reading matierals, there are internet monitoring programs, once TIPS goes beyond this defined section though, i.e. as DARE has done in the past, then yes I would have a major problem with it, but its not there yet folks and may never be.

I think the key real issue is neighborhood watches, people need to get off there lazy self centered asses and get involved in one, they should be revamped due to our modern times and our current situation with terrorism, meaning work on getting more alert, learn what to look for, understand that we are targets and that people are trying to kill you and your family, get it into your head that you have a basic right to protect yourself and that you should take responsibility for that right, understand that profiling is a good tool when used in the right context, the karate master Gary Alexander once tried to put together a "FREE" national seminar on enviromental awareness, basic h2h, and community safety tips after 9/11, as they did in WW2 with the Home Guard, but it never got off the ground, because the general/none ma public, did not get involved.

Suntzu
07-18-2002, 01:28 PM
meaning work on getting more alert, learn what to look for, understand that we are targets and that people are trying to kill you and your family, get it into your head that you have a basic right to protect yourself and that you should take responsibility for that right, more alert huh??? Look for what??? By the time you see whatever your looking for it too late… and as for 'us' being targets… even before 'terrorism' 'we' have been targets… of crimonals, crooks and thieves… now If u happen to walk into to some dude house and see maps of the water waste sytems and jars of small pox in his make shift labs ... yeah call the feds... but most of us arent gonna stumble upon the criminal materminds secret headquarters.... and if i catch u peeking in my window, u headless....

people walkin 'round spittin buzzwords worse than news reporters…

dnc101
07-18-2002, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by KC Elbows
the problem is the type of events that caused Sept. 11, or at least the lack of cognizance. You're asking do we have an alternate solution to TIPS, and I'm saying September 11 solved the problems of September 11th in one fell swoop. We are not untouchable, we know it, we are more watchful, TIPS is over the top(IMO).

And that, Rogue, is it. Learn it, internalize it, practice it. One of the key principals this country was founded on is that we as individuals are responsible for ourselves and for our government. The government was never responsible for you, but to you. You make it work by your voluntary participation. The distinction is who is in charge. A government that is responsible to you will find it harder to abuse you. If the government is responsible for you, they can also control you. You become the property of the government. If you are dependant on them, they own you. I know that this paragraph is a little redundant. But it is important that you get the point, because when you are willing to capitulate to evil, it grows stronger and becomes harder for the rest of us to deal with.

rogue
07-18-2002, 01:39 PM
and I'm saying September 11 solved the problems of September 11th in one fell swoop.
So KC, if someone attacked you for some reason and killed you would you say that solved the problem of some potential gaps in your self defense skills?


Does Israel need to announce that certain citizens will now be watching for suspicious behavior? They may, but I think people are watchful enough there without adding a beaurocracy to the process.
In Isreal many stores and nightclubs employ armed private guards that will shoot first if they suspect someone is a walking bomb. They also will also take out nuke plants, will roll the tanks over their borders and hammer their opponents into the ground, not to mention the will to assasinate their enemies. Americans are not watchful, as a people we tend to mind our own business and not get involved until something has gone wrong.

Let me ask you this, if you saw someone talking to one of the neighborhood kids (let's say she's about 5) about his missing dog, would you go over and say hi to him, ask him what going on? After hearing his story would you write down his plate number, his description and call the cops? Or would that just be paranoid?

dnc101
07-18-2002, 01:52 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by rogue
[B]
"So KC, if someone attacked you for some reason and killed you would you say that solved the problem of some potential gaps in your self defense skills?"


They didn't kill us, only injured. When you look at the analogy from this perspective, then I'd say yes. Getting hit in the nose will definately reinforce the necessity of keeping your guard up.

As for Isreal rolling tanks, so have we. And it's about time! Now we need to quit telling the Israelis they need to show restraint, solidify our alliance and go after these filth. Attacking our own freedoms is not a viable alternative. To use your own analogy, if someone attacks you from behind and injures you, would you respond by killing yourself?

rogue
07-18-2002, 02:06 PM
OK We rolled the tanks, but the three worst acts of terrorism came totally from within the US, WTC 1, Tim McVey and WTC 9/11.

These guys all used materials bought in the US of A, these guys all lived here in the US for extended periods of time without being bothered, shopped here, drove our road and flew on our airlines. Do you think we've gotten every one of the cells they had here? Saying 9/11 was a punch in our nose is like saying rape is just very heavy petting.

TIPS could be bad if abused but right now I think it's the best thing we've got outside of restricting movement and making everyone carry papers.

Black Jack
07-18-2002, 02:11 PM
Suntzu,

I don't really know what your point is but mine was about getting more involved with your neighborhood in terms of being more involved than just the sphere which is oneself.

Its a sure step better than doing nothing at all. Maybe if neighbors had a more active neighborhood watch program there would be less victims like Elizabeth Runnions or if people followed there instincts better we migh of been able to avoid 9/11.

Rogue,

Were you in reference to the poor Runnions girl?

dnc101
07-18-2002, 02:55 PM
Don't make the 9/11 attack out to be more than it was. They bloodied our nose. It hurt, it made us cry, we had to clean up the mess, now we must heal. But never give a bully more credit than he is due. A bloody nose should just steel our resolve.

As for the 3 terrorist acts you mentioned, yes, they occured here. And with locally obtained materials and even training. Try this- go into the supermarket and wander around the aisles. Read all the warnings and cautions on the various products. Now pervert the warnings a little. Do you honestly think these average citizen type McSpys will be able to stop Atilla the Housewife if she decides to go on a rampage? Let alone a trained terrorist! However, since 9/11 there have been several instances of average citizens spotting something and taking immediate action- remember the idiot that tried to light his shoe on an airplane? What do you think would have happened if everyone had taken the mindset of "let's report this to the Feds and let them deal with it."

And since you brought up McVey, he did not blow up the Federal Building. He thought he did, but it was not possible with the type bomb he used. He was a patsy, just like Oswald. In WTC-1 the bomb they put inside the building was the same type. And it was right up to a main supporting pillar, not parked out by the curb. It did no more than put a hole in the floor, so I doubt the same thing would bring down the Murrah Bldg. Also, there were two distinct seismic events recorded at the University of Oklahoma. Let me spell that out- they recorded two major explosions, there were two bombs! Ask yourself why the FBI and Federal Marshals all took their files and vacated the building the day before. And who benifited from it- that incident took the focus off those two agencies for their mishandling and abuses in the cases at Waco and Ruby Ridge. Remember who burned the children at Waco? And, speaking of informants, remember why they tried to kill Randy Weaver? The Feds were angry with him because he refused to spy on his neighbors, so they set him up with another informant, and then killed his wife and son.

Now, ask yourself, who do you think will be in charge of these petty little spy wannabees?

And, before all the idiots pull their heads out of the sand long enough to use th P word on me, let me say that:
"Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get you."

rogue
07-18-2002, 04:03 PM
dnc101, I assume you're basing your information upon contacts within the govornment who deal with WMD, terrorism and upon information that can be cororbarated(sp?) and not this document (http://www.wakeuptotruth.com/ok-30qus.htm) alone.

FEMA report on OKC (http://www.fema.gov/mit/bpat/bpat009.htm)

Oddly I'm having difficulty finding references to the people named on the list except on websites like 30 questions. I'll keep checking and ask around though.



Don't make the 9/11 attack out to be more than it was. OK I won't, soon they'll fill in the hole and start building and we can forget it even happened. Don't worry be happy! :)

rogue
07-18-2002, 04:16 PM
Black Jack, I was referring to that poor baby.:( One of my sons is close to her age.

I'm always amazed at how many martial artists bury their heads in the sand where it comes to being proactive. I mean a neighborhood watch should be something we'd naturally want to be a part of given our backgrounds.

dnc101
07-18-2002, 05:43 PM
Everything I said there either was in the mainstream media or could be infered from the media accounts. You just have to engage your brain when listening to or reading their reports to see the inconsistencies, contradictions, and outright lies. Connect the dots between their own accounts and you'll come up with a pretty ugly picture.

The 30 questions site was pretty good, but the FEMA site was lame.

And where in my post do you get that I advocate forgetting what happened on 9/11? What I advocate is facing terror wherever you find it, especially if it is in our own government. Allowing them to use 9/11 to give themselves more terrorist powers over you is to surrender to a worse form of terror than these lunatics with bombs.

TaoBoy
07-18-2002, 06:25 PM
Ha - and you guys think TIPS would make life difficult. Even McCarthyism has nothing on this (see below)....


from www.news.com.au (http://www.news.com.au)

A PAKISTANI Christian who claimed he was Jesus Christ and called Islam a fake religion has been convicted of blasphemy and sentenced to death by hanging.

The verdict against Anwar Keneth, 40, a former government official, drew criticism from the Christian Liberation Front, which lobbies for the interests of the small Christian community in Pakistan.

"We think justice has not been done in the case of Anwar Keneth," Khalid Gill, a leader and spokesman for the group, said.

"Keneth should have been treated at a mental hospital."

Keneth was arrested a year ago in the eastern city of Lahore for violating Pakistan's strict blasphemy laws after he addressed a letter to a local imam and others stating that Islam was a fake religion. He also claimed in the letter to be Christ.

Keneth, who was born a Christian, has been jailed since his arrest. He confessed to the charges on July 8, according to court documents.

Minorities in Pakistan have been demanding the repeal of blasphemy laws, under which scores of people are arrested every year.

About 97 per cent of Pakistan's 145 million people are Muslim. Christians constitute a small portion of the remaining 3 per cent, along with Hindus and Sikhs.

Under Pakistani law, only the word of a Muslim accuser is needed to prosecute a non-Muslim on blasphemy charges.

Black Jack
07-18-2002, 06:49 PM
Rogue,

It is real hard to think about, fricken hard man, there seems to be a rash of child abductions and child murders over the last couple of months, just this week I saw that two young boys, both of them just under 12, where killed by there next door neighbor who had a history of mental illness, he came over murdered them and killed himself, one of them looked a lot like my younger brother did when we were kids.

Or the dad here in my town of Naperville who 2 weeks ago shot his wife and took his 6 year old daughter for a car ride which ended with him driving into the front of an oncoming semi-truck, killing both him and the little girl. These f@cks get off way to easy, they should be killed slow and long, and creative.

On the subject of neighborhood watches and getting involved, I enjoy being part of such a group, I would watch out for my neighbor anyway, its not what I wish it would be, most people are sheeple and could give two rats asses what happens to you or your house, but its a start and a learning experiance for me. I think Gary Alexander/Issin-Ryu karate master, had a great idea, to bad he could not get the egos in ma and the public to see it as so, a lot of people are more interested in getting there fat free moca latte than giving a **** about there safety, they like illusions, in most peoples eyes, that is what the government is there to do, protect them.

KC Elbows
07-18-2002, 08:13 PM
OK, responses to Rogue's questions/other miscellaneous points:

"So KC, if someone attacked you for some reason and killed you would you say that solved the problem of some potential gaps in your self defense skills? "

Yes.:p Actually, that argument presumes that US cognizance at this point is at a fatal level, which we apparently disagree about. I think it has improved, so that argument doesn't have much bearing on me, as to me it becomes reworded "So KC, if someone attacked you...and killed you using a weakness you were deluded into thinking you had, but had no reasonable reason to believe you had, is your problem solved?" in which case I would say yes, the attacker had put an end to my delusions by taking advantage of the fact that my delusions were actually, by coincidence and by no virtue of my own thinking, true. Makes sense?


"Let me ask you this, if you saw someone talking to one of the neighborhood kids (let's say she's about 5) about his missing dog, would you go over and say hi to him, ask him what going on? After hearing his story would you write down his plate number, his description and call the cops? Or would that just be paranoid?"

That would be the right thing to do, that being for me to choose to help others without the necessity for an act of congress or for organized guidelines from people who sleep with interns, snort cocaine, and then tell us how we need to restore America to its former greatness, you know, when colored folk had their own restaurants.:rolleyes:

Perhaps I shouldn't post at night. Nonetheless, I will continue.


"TIPS could be bad if abused but right now I think it's the best thing we've got outside of restricting movement and making everyone carry papers."

How have we determined that it's the best thing we've got? Is there a similar system that has worked in the past(not meaning on a small scale, talking a similar system of this magnitude)?


"OK We rolled the tanks, but the three worst acts of terrorism came totally from within the US, WTC 1, Tim McVey and WTC 9/11. "

Seems to me that ideas like TIPS will create more McVeys. So is the idea to create more crazies and less explosives? Are we trying to make it so only americans are blowing up our monuments, you know, edge out the foreign terrorists with our own terrorists? And are the foreign terrorists really hobnobbing with the average folk that much, anyway?


"These guys all used materials bought in the US of A, these guys all lived here in the US for extended periods of time without being bothered, shopped here, drove our road and flew on our airlines. Do you think we've gotten every one of the cells they had here? Saying 9/11 was a punch in our nose is like saying rape is just very heavy petting."

I don't actually have a response to this, I merely love the end part, even if I don't necessarily agree with your viewpoint. It's the "very" that makes it good.:D

OK, I must sleep now. Good talking with you all, and have a good one.

BTW, I have nothing against neighborhood watches, when they are well run.

JAZA
07-18-2002, 08:46 PM
the big brother has been born

Serpent
07-18-2002, 09:39 PM
Originally posted by dnc101


Those recruited by the government to spy on neighbors and fellow citizens do so out of a sense of self importance, a sense of belonging to some secrative government agency, a misplaced hero complex. Those who go for this are petty, self serving, hateful individuals with no morals.

Better hope you don't live next door to HuangKaiVun! :eek:









Sorry, I couldn't help myself.....:)

dnc101
07-18-2002, 09:52 PM
But show me one time in history that refutes the statement you quoted. Others here have listed several that support it.

rogue
07-18-2002, 09:53 PM
I really don't believe that America is much more ready against attack than before. Believing that 9/11 was the worst that could happen is the same thing that we thought after WTC '93.

"In WTC-1 the bomb they put inside the building was the same type. And it was right up to a main supporting pillar, not parked out by the curb. It did no more than put a hole in the floor, so I doubt the same thing would bring down the Murrah Bldg."

Here's the deal on the damage of WTC-1. They were only a hairs bredth from having the North tower go down. The bomb which was on the second level of the parking deck made a crater 6 stories deep, the upward blast went through 2 steel reinforced concrete floors each 11 inches thick, a seven ton steel support was thrown 40 feet knocking down a concrete wall causing the death of 5 maintainence workers. The cement casings that carried the weight for 3 support columns were destroyed leaving a large section of the North tower unsupported leaving the North tower in a precarious state. This was shored up by an amazing effort by a repair crew within the next day.
If the explosion had gone off next to one of the walls of the parking garage instead of the middle of the garage the mud that surrounds the WTC would have shifted causing at least the North tower to fall. This attack would have worked on the Sear tower in Chicago, still can. The reason it didn't on the WTC is the unusual redundency in the WTC support structures. This bomb did more than make a hole in the ground.

OK with that little history of ground zero for the WTC-1 attack we can address these statements:
1: "The so I doubt the same thing would bring down the Murrah Bldg."
The Murrah building did not have the same structural integrity of the WTC parking garage(see FEMA report on OKC), the Murrah building was glass and steel not steel reinforced concrete. Therefore the damage would be as expected for a blast of the same magnitude.

2a: "However, I don't really feel that TIPS is necessary. September 11 happened partly because no one thought it was possible. Now we know it's possible. We are more watchful."

2b: "I'm saying September 11 solved the problems of September 11th in one fell swoop. We are not untouchable, we know it, we are more watchful"

Now that's debatable given that seven years before we had Middle-eastern terrorists blowing up the WTC and then they came back again to finish the job. One reason I believe is that nothing happened to them after WTC-1, Samolia, or the Embassy bombings. The war on terror should have started back during the first Clinton term.

As a side note crashing jets is not a new thing look up "Events Before and During the Initial Descent, While the Relief First Officer Was Alone in the ****pit" in this document. (http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/2002/aab0201.htm)

dnc101
07-18-2002, 10:38 PM
It still did not do the job, despite its extremely close proximity to a main support pillar. That pillar was not even phased- it held. These type bombs push, they don't shatter, which is what is required to collapse the building. If you'll think back to coverage of Oklahoma City, remember that a lot of victoms and office trappings were pushed straight back from McV's blast. Then the whole thing was brought straight down on them.

Also, think back to day one. There was coverage of emergency responders leaving the remaining structure shouting warnings of another bomb. This was never shown after that day, to my knowlege. It was hushed up. Who do you suppose had the power to pull that off?

We could go on and on here discussing who is responsible for Oklahoma City. The question is, do we trust our government not to turn this neighborhood spy network against us? Almost no one today thinks the Kenedy assination was other than a high level plot. We've seen several recent abuses of government power listed here, even if we were to exclude Oklahoma City. What would it take to convince you that our government is not trustworthy with this kind of intrusive power. No government is. That's why our founders set it up so they answer to us, not us to them. We've droped the ball, and future generations will have to pay the price with the loss of freedoms we impose on them.

guohuen
07-19-2002, 05:38 AM
Regardless of what the "experts" say (remember the Zagruder film), I firmly believe the planes were a diversion so they could drive explosive ladden emergency vehicles into the parking garage. I think the explanation of why the towers collapsed is as believable as why Kennedy flew backwards when struck from the rear.

P.S. What are the odds I get set up and busted again?:p
Drive on

KC Elbows
07-19-2002, 05:48 AM
Rogue,
I hope I haven't offended you here, and if I bordered on flippancy at any point, it was not out of complacency, but more just my posting style. I'm sure you already know that.

In addition, I like debating these things with you because you tend to be well informed and have, on several occasions, changed my viewpoint on issues that I was very hardline on, which is good. Although I tend towards liberal, I don't believe in discounting all things conservative just because they come from "the other camp", and people like you are generally the ones that make me aware of issues that I am too marginalized on.

To me, WTC1 and WTC2 both changed certain things. I am not so sure that WTC1 could have been done again. In six elbows(and I'm assuming that other systems use this principle) there is a principle called "pluggin the hole". Plugging the hole means that, if you find an opening in the opponent's defenses, say the face, you attack there until you either open a more desirable target, or until the moment that the opponent seeks to cover that hole. IMO, the two WTC attacks are similar. We were hit there one way, we worked on defenses against that, and then were attacked in a different way at the same spot, a way in which we had not developed defenses. Now, the varieties of ways such attacks can come is not unlimited. The payload must be delivered, the payload must be pretty large, so that limits delivery to non-portable methods, i.e. planes, vans, missiles, etc.

We've covered planes and vans, or are in the process of doing so. Missiles are an example of an issue I've totally changed position on, as I used to be against the whole missile defense thing, whereas now I think it is an excellent idea, and people like you are the reason for that.

Also, we've taken the offensive. It's my opinion that it would be more effective to win this war, and make great efforts to undermine the causes of support for these terrorist organizations that operate against the US. However, and this is where we would probably disagree, doing so would probably involve giving up some power in various regions, and supporting autonomy in our allies. This may seem naive, and it may be so, but I can only really speak from where I am at right now and where I've been.

To me, the greatness of america is in no relation to its status as an empire, the size of its holdings, or the affluence of its people, but in direct relation to its tenacious belief in freedom, and I think TIPS is a step backward and away from the important principles of the US character. And so, this issue is important to me as well, but not for the same reasons as you. Your emphasis on defense is valid, and I feel my emphasis on our culture is equally valid.

guohuen
07-19-2002, 06:07 AM
Well said Brother.

Suntzu
07-19-2002, 06:26 AM
I lifted this post from another message board… this is the type of person I don’t want to see spying on me… and I'm sure he not the only person that thinks this way…

I want to call some of you that thought I was wrong in wanting to profile people with mohamed in their names. After the attack in LA does it look silly now? When a guy named mohamed kills your family do not say I did not warn you.

guohuen
07-19-2002, 06:41 AM
I'm keeping a sharp eye out for all the Timothys.

rogue
07-19-2002, 07:37 AM
Thanks for the complement and don't worry KC I've a thick skin and nothing you guys have said offended me and anyway I believe it's healthy to have ones ideas challenged. Anyway many times it's me who's using the big hammer to beat on people. I've never understood people who get angry during a debate.

In all honesty having to have things like TIPS, screening at airports and video cameras all over the place bothers me, I also believe that they could be abused. Though I believe the Democrats tend to abuse these kind of things to further their agenda more than the Republicans who have spines like jelly fish.
We are on the offensive but most of the offensive squad was let go. Back during the Clinton years his team let go many of the hunters that we had, at a minimum we're about two years out from replacing them. Airline security is still a joke as the majority of luggage is not checked for explosives. Also some of the religious terrorist groups are of major league calibre. They're smart, patient and have cash and followers willing to die to further their cause.


You just have to engage your brain when listening to or reading their reports to see the inconsistencies, contradictions, and outright lies. Connect the dots between their own accounts and you'll come up with a pretty ugly picture. That's the problem with news reporting, they have to report something even if it's rumour to keep the viewers watching. There's a guy called Captain Janks that when a tragedy happens calls the network newsrooms as an expert or someone on the scene and actually gets on the air. He'll say some incredibly obvious stuff but the news anchors will go along with him for quite awhile. Also to use the WTC, the news reported the first plane in was an accident (though it obviously wasn't), the original reported body count was 20,000, there were reports of a fireman surviving an 80 story or foot drop and other nonsense. At OKC when people were reporting finding bombs it was more a case of "rather be safe than sorry" as very few of the rescuers could tell the difference between a bomb and the insides of a PC. Anyway if they did find a UXB in that rubble it was composed of some overly stable material to survive that blast. What seems like "inconsistencies, contradictions, and outright lies" are usually based upon news people not having all of the facts, on scene personell misreading the situation or stupidity by the so-called experts. Connecting the dots without the little numbers is a hit or miss proposition at best. :)

GeneChing
09-06-2016, 12:04 PM
I'm poaching this here 14-year-old thread for some spy news.


G20 'honey trap' warning: Fears Prime Minister's officials will be seduced by Chinese spies and have hotel rooms bugged (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/03/g20-honey-trap-warning-fears-prime-ministers-officials-will-be-s/)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2016/09/03/theresa_may-large_trans++rWYeUU_H0zBKyvljOo6zlhECiXwTOJWx29Ldu w1FARw.jpg
Theresa May, whose officials have been warned to be wary of Chinese female attention during the G20 summit CREDIT: PA
Tim Ross
3 SEPTEMBER 2016 • 2:21PM

Theresa May’s officials have been warned to avoid “honey traps” amid fears that the Prime Minister's team will be targeted by Chinese spies offering sex during the G20 summit.

British government aides have fallen victim to spying on previous official trips to China, with one Downing Street official reported to have had his mobile phone and secret documents stolen after he was seduced.

Government security chiefs are anxious to avoid a repeat of the incident, which took place during a visit by Gordon Brown in 2008, and have provided detailed guidance to Mrs May’s team.

The Prime Minister’s officials have been warned to take steps to protect themselves during the G20 summit, which begins on Sunday.

Officials travelling with Mrs May have been issued with temporary mobile phones and email addresses in an attempt to evade Chinese state hackers.

Security advisers are also warning staff not to keep gifts they receive and to be particularly wary of electronic devices, such as free computer memory sticks, mobile phone SIM cards or chargers which they are offered by their Chinese hosts.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2016/09/03/china1-large_trans++A7N2CxnJWnYI3tCbVBgu9UYMapKPjdhyLnv9a x6_too.jpg
Barack Obama and Chinese president Xi Jinping in Hangzhou, after formally joining the Paris Climate deal at the G20 summit on Saturday CREDIT: AFP/GETTY

One Whitehall source said security chiefs had warned them that hotel rooms used during the summit were likely to be bugged. “We have been told that if you feel uncomfortable about people seeing you naked, you should get changed under your bedclothes,” the source said.

British security agencies regard China as one of the most aggressive nations when it comes to launching cyber-attacks against western governments and businesses, as well as posing a major espionage threat to the UK.

Chinese technological expertise has prompted security concerns at the highest levels of government and British intelligence.

There are fears that Chinese intelligence agents will use their capability to intercept emails and phone calls and to install spy software on computers during the summit.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2016/09/03/hangzhou-large_trans++qiUuvBizZT2q34Osm0tNw7cOTArw6q3DryF_V 5JSwuo.jpg
Hangzhou, the host city for this weekend's G20 Summit

However, one of the gravest threats posed by foreign spies is also one of the oldest: the honey trap.

During Mr Brown’s visit to China in 2008, one of the No 10 officials accompanying the then Prime Minister reportedly fell prey to a “beautiful” female Chinese spy. She went back to his hotel room, drugged him, stole his mobile phone and documents from his briefcase.

The incident was described by Mr Brown’s former spin doctor, Damien McBride, in his 2013 memoir, Power Trip.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2016/09/03/mcbride-large_trans++S9fhcIxAvYvS9A0V9inB7NU8endldP9mD3h4a QjLuCM.jpg
Damian McBride, left, was then prime minister Gordon Brown's special advisor CREDIT: BRUCE ADAMS/REX

The No 10 team was “accosted on one side by a beautiful posse of Chinese girls and on the other side by an equivalent group of Russian blondes”, Mr McBride said.

He wrote:


Even before our resident security expert could warn us that their interest was not to be taken at face value, we looked up and saw one of our number disappearing up the stairs to the exit with one of the girls, beaming back at us.

He woke up the following morning "minus his Blackberry and half the contents of his briefcase".

The official also had a "‘very bad headache, owning to the Mickey Finn nightcap his overnight companion had administered to him in his hotel room".

The G20 summit in Hangzhou comes at a time of heightened tension between Britain and China. Within weeks of entering Downing Street in July, Mrs May put on hold a final decision on whether to approve a Chinese-backed new nuclear power station at Hinkley Point in Somerset.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2016/09/03/spies-large_trans++OpdxOwrbrM2iLFO18w0mBujqLl5BuMdUZ15IO m_s-gk.jpg
Members of the US delegation check parts of the runway before the arrival of President Barack Obama at the Hangzhou airport CREDIT: ROLEX DE LA PENA/EPA

Her aides made it clear that she was concerned about the potential risks to British national security of allowing China to take such a major role in running a critical nuclear energy plant.

Mrs May’s chief of staff, Nick Timothy, warned before taking up his No 10 role that the Hinkley project could allow China to shut down energy production “at will”.

He said that MI5 believed Chinese intelligence services were working “against British interests at home and abroad”.

Shortly after Mrs May’s decision to delay the Hinkley plan, the Chinese ambassador in London warned that blocking the £18 billion project would put Britain’s future relationship with China in doubt.

Mrs May is due to have her first face-to-face meeting with the Xi Jinping, the Chinese president, at the end of the G20 summit on Monday.

FAQ | G20
What is it? The G20 is made up of the world's leading industrialised and emerging economies. The Group of 20 accounts for 85 per cent of world GDP and two-thirds of its population. Much of the important business takes place on the sidelines and in informal meetings.

Which countries are in the G20? UK, US, Canada, Mexico, Germany, France, Italy. Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Australia, South Africa, South Korea, Japan, China, India, Brazil, Argentina and Russia are also part of the club. A representative from the EU is involved too.

Why isn't every country invited? Because it becomes more difficult to make decisions.

When did Britain last host a summit? 2009 when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister.

When did the meetings start? The first G20 summit of world leaders was held in Washington in 2008 hosted by President George W. Bush when countries coordinated a response to the global financial meltdown.

Is it effective? It has a mixed record. Many believe its failure to deliver on many past pledges raises questions about the credibility of future promises.

boxerbilly
09-14-2016, 05:10 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZXtCHoRb50

wolfen
10-01-2016, 08:05 PM
I'm poaching this here 14-year-old thread for some spy news. (G20 in China )

There was a mini-War upon Obama's arrival. I wonder how much the MSM news reported on this? I don't usually browse the MSM news.




Chinese Officials, White House Staff Screaming on Tarmac Mar Obama’s G-20 Arrival (http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/09/03/chinese-officials-white-house-staff-screaming-on-tarmac-mar-obamas-g-20-arrival/)

A member of the Chinese delegation was screaming at White House staff from the moment pool got onto the tarmac. He wanted he US press to leave. The Chinese had put up a blue rope under the wing so pool had to stand behind it. This man was demanding the pool, which was behind the blue rope, get away from the arrival scene altogether. At one point a White House official told him this was our president and our plane and the press wasn’t moving.

....

Lee wrote this assertion by the White House staffer did not go down well: “The man yelled, ‘This is our country.” He yelled at another White House official and got testy with Susan Rice and Ben Rhodes, seeming to try to block them from walking closer to the arrival scene after they lifted the blue rope and walked to the other side of it, nearer to POTUS.”
...

“The president is arriving here in an hour,” one White House staffer was overheard saying in exasperation.
As the disagreement escalated, a Chinese official assisting the Americans grew angered by how guards were treating the White House staff and began yelling, nearly coming to blows with one of the Chinese security officials.
“You don’t push people. No one gave you the right to touch or push anyone around,” he yelled in Chinese at one of the Chinese security officials. Another Chinese official trying to help US officials stepped between the two who were arguing once the security official began approaching, looking like he was going to throw a punch.
“Calm down please. Calm down,” pleaded a White House official.
“Stop, please,” said a foreign ministry official in Chinese. “There are reporters here.”
..
But, hold on, sports fans. The action was not over yet.

As soon as the White House communications staff entered the state house, the arguments started up again, when the White House press officers lobbied for the traveling press corps to gain entry, the pool report said. “You are only allowed 10,” said a Chinese official.

Apparently, 10 was not the correct answer. “That’s not right,” the pool report quotes the White House press official. In fact, two reporters who had traveled with the president were left outside.

The shouting did not abate, the report said.

Twenty minutes before Obama’s arrival, U.S. press officers were still arguing in the room where the two presidents would soon be meeting along with Ban Ki Moon to talk of their cooperation. As U.S. official a pleaded for two U.S. journalists left outside to be allowed to stand in the back of the room. “There’s space. They are print reporters. They would just be just standing,” said one White House press officer.
It was a fight they did not win.



(Sourced from one of the news sites that the Globalists want to shut down if they win the American Presidency.)

...
I believe Trudeau got "schlonged" at this meet-up. Later on he revealed that he may have sold the cow for some magic promises. He agreed to an extradition treaty even though it runs against Canada's human rights code as China has the death penalty. I believe he just thumbed his nose somehow at the Canadian Parliament when members complained in session and told them they were "racist". ( /sarcasm.. I mean he gave them some jabberty-jab rhetoric not even worth remembering and he didn't care what they thought about it).
Anyway CBC's "pretty boy" gets away with just about anything.. after all "It's the current year" and he's got a majority..
..
I've dealt with Chinese Officials many times and I learned from them that "promises cost nothing" You gotta have moxie, chutzpah and a hard nose to even break even with them and I can't imagine that Trudeau, who seems like a guy who simply spouts one piece of rhetoric after another, could possibly hold up his end with them.
I mean the rhetoric technique is successful in the propaganda game but it doesn't have any hard chips on the poker table.

.....
Looking at the G20 you have a block of Leftist-"progressive" Globalist-backed "elected" Western leaders (elected due to the Globalist control of the MSM) , a few of their Islamist allies and one deadly enemy: Russia and they are in the country of the 3rd enemy. It seems they are enemies.

So the world is shaping up much like Oceania (Globalists) versus EastAsia (China) versus Eurasia (Russia).
But this 1984 map I found will need some re-working of borders . And where does Islam fit in ? Absorbed by the Globalists , conquering the Globalists? or a fourth entity?

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