Incredibly Not So Smart

[kungfu cowboy]

This (http://logosresourcepages.org/mrtl-art.html) stuff never ceases to amaze me. Maybe Santa is evil too!:rolleyes:

[dnc101]

Originally posted by kungfu cowboy
This (http://logosresourcepages.org/mrtl-art.html) stuff never ceases to amaze me. Maybe Santa is evil too!:rolleyes:

Of course he's evil! Go back to the 1 in 24 Americans Recruited post- the red clad sod has been recruited by the Feds! You want that comeing down your chimney?

[Shaolindynasty]

That whole site is just more evidence to me that most christian schools/churches are a cult.

[Suntzu]

When Christians take up the martial arts for self-defense, they are saying to God, "I don't trust You to protect me." Christians are to depend on God for protection.

ummmm… yeah… if I pray this dude will stop beating me into the ground:rolleyes:...

sorry if I offended… but c'mon...

[TenTigers]

"Santa Claus wears a red suit-he's a comunist.
He has long hair and a beard-must be a pacifist.
What's in that pipe that he's smoking?
Santa Claus walks through your house at night-must be a dope fiend!"-Arlo Guthrie
I personally never trusted Santa Claus. That whole 'he knows when you are sleeping, he knows when you're awake, he knows if you've been bad or good.." too much big brother for me.Santa is obviously C.I.A. nope, nope, don't like it one bit.

[SanShou Guru]

He seems afraid of everything and you know what they say:

fear leads to anger
anger leads to hate
hate leads to suffering

Funny link but more funny sad.

[Leto]

Could it beeeeeee?... SATAN!

Kung Foos is da Debil Bobby!

[Hai_To]

I like how he quotes the Bible axiom "turn the other cheek". I don't recall the Jews turning the other cheek at Jericho. Didn't they put all the defenders to the sword in that Biblical story?

[ewallace]

Is that Southern Praying Baptist kung fu any good?

[SanShou Guru]

Seems to me more people have been killed because of some god than any other reason.

Life is not rocket science but some people do need a rule book I guess.

[SanShou Guru]

Southern Praying Baptist kung fu is mostly just hitting people with a bible then lots of yelling.

[Hai_To]

When Christians take up the martial arts for self-defense, they are saying to God, "I don't trust You to protect me." Christians are to depend on God for protection.

I actually agree with their use of this philosophy. Its a great way to get killed. I view it as a little chlorine for the gene pool.

[TaoBoy]

Christians have no business being involved in the martial arts, even at the most elementary level. The one benefit that can be derived from the martial arts -- exercise -- is available in so many other spiritually harmless activities that there is no reason to open oneself up to the spiritual hazards or commission of sin that these techniques lead to.

Can I have a Amen?

[BrentCarey]

Mr. Brown,

I read your article titled "The Martial Arts". At first I assumed that it was a spoof of some sort. No reasonable and thinking person could possibly come to these conclusions. I finally came to the conclusion that no reasonable and thinking person did.

Let us examine some of your more ridiculous points. In the order that they appear (not the order of importance):

You wrote:
The rising crime rate has caused many people to consider taking up the martial arts for self-defense.

My reply:
Both property and violent crime have been declining for years. Perhaps you haven't heard. Check out the Department of Justice's Bureau of Justice Statistics http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/.

You wrote:
The Martial Arts are Violent
The very terms "martial arts" and "self-defense" should tip off the Christian that something is wrong.

My reply:
The very statement "Martial Arts are Violent" should tip off the informed person that you have no direct experience with martial arts to speak of. I have about 24 years of experience with martial arts. I (and anyone that actually "knows" what they are talking about) can tell you that martial artists are the least violent community in general. Generally, people study martial arts because they disdain violence and don't want to be a victim of it. Martial arts training teaches people how to be in control of their impulses and avoid violent confrontation. People without martial arts training are the ones that go around attacking people - Christians and non-Christians alike.

You wrote:
When Christians take up the martial arts for self-defense, they are saying to God, "I don't trust You to protect me."

My reply:
This one is my favorite. By an extension of this logic, we can say that wearing seat belts sends the same message. For that matter, we should do away with doctors for the same reason. To be true to this concept, we need to do away with clergy, because by listening to clergy one says to God, "I don't trust You to inform me."

You wrote:
Many, though not all, martial arts students are taught to revere their teachers to the point of worshiping them. There is nothing unbiblical about respect for authority, but within the martial arts, this veneration can reach levels that violate the First Commandment.

My reply:
Again, this underscores your ignorance of the subject at hand. Rarely does the student/teacher relationship come anywhere near this level. Usually students are taught to respect the knowledge of their elders, but this relationship does not approach anything like the Pope's for example. I have never in 24+ years seen any instructor claiming any kind of spiritual authority - unlike you.

You wrote:
But even the Christian who never uses martial arts to purposely injure another and trusts the Lord to protect him is getting involved in a religion that contradicts the teaching of the Bible.

My reply:
OK, this is a bizarre generalization that I will postpone comment on until you get a chance to support it with the next statement.

You wrote:
Masutatsu Oyama, in his book, This is Karate, says: "In many countries around the world, the question, 'What is Zen' often turns up. Usually we answer that Zen is karate and that karate is Zen."

My reply:
Clearly you don't understand the concept of Zen either. Zen is a philosophy more than a religion in the western sense of the word. Zen is a description for everything. Zen is everything, everything is Zen. Christians often equate Zen to God. This is an adequate approximation of the concept. It could be said that God is Zen and Zen is God. Just as it could be said that karate is Zen and Zen is karate.

Is God not omnipresent? Is God not present in the martial arts? Was God not present during the bloody Holy Crusades or the Spanish Inquisition or the birth of my child or when my neighbor's car broke down?

It is difficult for many Christians to understand a religion that does not involve worship. Zen Buddhism is such a religion/philosophy. You probably think that Zen Buddhists worship Buddha don't you? You need to do your homework.

You wrote:
The mental state brought about by such meditation gradually conditions one to adopt a different world view from what a Christian should have. The emptying of the mind brings about a feeling of union with the universe. [...] After this experience, the subject can come to believe that he is at one with God or is God, because God is in everything. Arrival at this pantheistic conclusion is the goal of Eastern religions, which teach that man can solve all his problems if only he will realize that he is divine.

My reply:
First, your ignorance of the subject at hand hardly makes you an authority to tell Christians what kind of world view they should have. Are you saying that earthly man cannot know God? Are you saying that even though God is omnipresent, people cannot see God in anything/everything?

Your use of the term "pantheistic" shows that you do not understand Zen Buddhism (or Buddhism in general). Zen Buddhism is an atheistic view that is not mutually exclusive with other monotheistic, polytheistic, or atheistic views.

You wrote:
It is not surprising that people in this mental state open themselves up to possible demonic influence.

My reply:
This is true. I cannot count the number of times I have been with someone who was meditating when suddenly they were possessed by demons. This happens all the time. We have finally resorted to dipping students in water to see if they float before we let them out of the building.

You wrote:
Most martial arts teachers include meditation as part of their instruction.

My reply:
No actually, most don't, but they should.

You wrote:
The mental conditioning that meditation brings is largely responsible for the amazing physical feats that advanced martial artists do. Focusing the attention on the single task, such as breaking many boards with a bare hand, is brought about by achieving the impassive Zen mental state.

My reply:
Well, it certainly helps, but is not strictly necessary. Are you saying that focusing on a single task is somehow evil? If so, I am in trouble. Perhaps if you had focused on the single task of writing an accurate, well-informed article, you would have written something meaningful.

You wrote:
Christians have no business being involved in the martial arts, even at the most elementary level.

My reply:
You sir have no business telling Christians anything about martial arts as you simply know very little about the subject, not even at the most elementary level.

If you would like, I could recommend a few books that would actually tell you something about these subjects. Then you could go back and write a well-informed article to replace this drivel.


Best regards,

Brent Carey

[Kope]

After I got out of the Army, I spent a few years getting my Master's degree in Theology at a very well respected University. I know a thing or 2 about this stuff - which, with $1.50 will by me a cup of eternally full coffee at Denny's so that when I go to heaven I won't have an eternal headache.

Having an actual educated background in theology gives me a real low tolerance for what I call "fundaholics." Like alcoholics, they are a real danger to themselves and their communities - only more so, since instead of just f'ing up their bodies they are messing up their (and other people's) minds and souls.

So while I agree that this particular idiot is another in the long line of Christian idiots out there these days - please don't judge all Christian theology by this moron.

Having said that -- he makes ONE point that is actually **** hard to refute from a grounded Christian theology. Namely, that Christians are called to refrain from violence to others.

Non-violence, even in self-defense, has a long and deep history within the Christian tradition. While Christian theologians of the day had to make long, arduous arguments to support things like the Crusades, the opponents of those activities just had to point to the Biblical texts and say something like "Show me where in the Gospel Jesus says 'bash their heads in!'"

Now, that doesn't mean that I think Christian's shouldn't be involved in the Martial Arts, even to the extent of participating in full contact sparring (where the participants are consenting to the event and are not acting in violence for violence's sake). But I do think that thinking Christians do need to spend some time thinking about what they really WILL do if confronted by an attacker on the street. And decide for themselves if the answer they come up with is one they can live with in the context of their own personal theology and relationship with Christ.

For me, I train my Chin Na stuff very hard precisely for this reason -- because I HOPE that should I be attacked I can control the situation and protect myself without committing violence against another person. But if I can't, I know what _I_ will do. My choice, however, may not be the choice another thinking Christian would make. But that is something they SHOULD be thinking about if they take their faith seriously.

Sorry to bust up the Christian bashing with a thought that wasn't bound in stereotypes ... feel free to return to ranting on about how evil all us Jesus freaks are . . .:D

[Kope]

Originally posted by SanShou Guru
Seems to me more people have been killed because of some god than any other reason.



Btw - this is a pet peeve of mine.

It is an ignorant and foolish statement that shows a huge lack of historical perspective.

Hitler, Stalin and Mao killed far more people for their respective states than all the religiously motivated wars in history combined. That's NOT counting all the people that died in various military combats they initiated or took part in. That's just counting the people they slaughtered out of the general population of the land that they controlled.

Now, I understand that religion has played a huge part in world history and was the cause (and sometimes the result of) numerous conflicts. But that is precisely because of how many people see religion as valuable. So one of the problems I have with this (and similar statements) besides the utter historical inaccuracy, is that it says "what all those people thought was valuable in their lives wasn't" and does so in a way that exudes a certain arrogance that I find personally offensive. It is not my place to judge the value of another person's beliefs to that person. And I am offended when I see other's doing it.

I understand the reason for making this mistake -- it is generally very difficult to understand the big numbers that people start talking about here.

But to get a handle on this consider that the number of people that lived in the 20th century is MORE than the total number of people who ever lived prior that century!!

The world didn't reach 1 billion people until around 1850 or so. Today there is almost 6 billion people on this planet.

The few hundred thousand people that died in ALL the crusades are nothing to the millions that died under Stalin. The few thousands that died under the Inquisitions aren't even a significant digit in the number of people Hitler murdered.

A little historical perspective please.

[BrentCarey]

Originally posted by Kope
Sorry to bust up the Christian bashing with a thought that wasn't bound in stereotypes ... feel free to return to ranting on about how evil all us Jesus freaks are . . .
I went back and reread all of the posts and can see only one that I would consider "Christian bashing", and I believe it was a joke. There were plenty of people poking fun at a deluded man and his tragically misinformed and illogical article.

Insanity is not proprietary to Christianity.


Best regards,

Brent Carey

[Kope]

Brent, it was said in jest .. guess I should go add a "smiley face" to make that more clear.

[TjD]

***quote***

Hitler, Stalin and Mao killed far more people for their respective states than all the religiously motivated wars in history combined. That's NOT counting all the people that died in various military combats they initiated or took part in. That's just counting the people they slaughtered out of the general population of the land that they controlled.

***quote***

you also have to note that in the spanish inquisition, and the crusades to name a few, man's potential for killing another man was pretty much restricted to the blade/arrows

if we had had guns and bombs and other such things back then, i'm sure many many more people would have died; also stalin controlled close to the largest amount of land anyone has ever controlled (if not the largest), the christians during their wars had far fewer people to kill ;)


travis

[IronFist]

Brent Carey said:


This is true. I cannot count the number of times I have been with someone who was meditating when suddenly they were possessed by demons. This happens all the time. We have finally resorted to dipping students in water to see if they float before we let them out of the building.

What the ****?

IronFist

[IronFist]

At that site, did you guys also read about how Pokemon is evil? Dungeons and Dragons is evil, too. So is magic the gathering. Give me a freaking break. I bet the internet is evil too. Also, I'm sure that posting on kfo is evil. In fact, with my 1300+ posts, I must be pretty evil myself!

I would have busted out laughing when I read these articles, but the sad part is I think they are serious. I feel bad for some kid whose mom won't let him watch Pokemon because her cult church has told her that it is satanic. No wonder people are messed up.

IronFist

[Axiom]

Originally posted by IronFist
What the ****?
I am pretty sure that was sarcasm, and very amusing it was too :p

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

from now on im just gonna give people that link when they ask why i worship satan.

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by TjD
***quote***

Hitler, Stalin and Mao killed far more people for their respective states than all the religiously motivated wars in history combined. That's NOT counting all the people that died in various military combats they initiated or took part in. That's just counting the people they slaughtered out of the general population of the land that they controlled.

***quote***

you also have to note that in the spanish inquisition, and the crusades to name a few, man's potential for killing another man was pretty much restricted to the blade/arrows

if we had had guns and bombs and other such things back then, i'm sure many many more people would have died; also stalin controlled close to the largest amount of land anyone has ever controlled (if not the largest), the christians during their wars had far fewer people to kill ;)


travis

Blame the people for their actions my friend not God. Maybe if you spent more time reading the Bible you would understand that God loves all people including non-beleivers. The only thing that God does not like is injustice. Yes I know about the old testament.

It is people like this who do not understand things correctly and make the rest of us look bad. Many people do not know that some things ,not all, written in the Bible are oppinions and intrepertations of thers and they cannot differentiate the differnce between God's laws and man's laws .

An example would be like there was a friend of mine's who was trying to talk about how he didn't understand how a law about two oxen in the old testament could fit into today's world. My reponse was dude. That's just man's laws. The only laws that God gave were the ten commandments the other stuff was for regular laws like when some guy crashes into your car or like back in the old days your property. That's were people tend to make mistakes.

Suntzu-

People like him belive that God is their servant when in actuality is the other way around. They expect God to do everything for them like money will magically appear before them and get the lawn done. They think it's the easy way out by saying I just trust in God but in reality God will help you no more than you can help yourself.

About the beating down comment. They also seem to forget that God gave people the abilty of free will so they wouldn't be lifeless and not the right to do anything they want .

[TjD]

Originally posted by NorthernMantis


Blame he people for their actions my friend not God. Maybe if you spent more time reading the Bible you would understand that God loves all people including non-beleivers. The only thing that God does not like is injustice. Yes I know about the old testament.

It is people like this who do not understand things correctly and make the rest of us look bad. Many people know that some things ,not all, written in the Bible are oppinions and intrepertations of thers and they cannot differentiate the differnce between God's laws and man's laws .

An example would be like there was a friend of mine's who was trying to talk about how he didn't understand how a law about two oxen in the old testament could fit into today's world. My reponse was dude. That's just man's laws. The only laws that God gave were the ten commandments the other stuff was for regular laws like when some guy crashes into your car or like back in the old days your property. That's were people tend to make mistakes.



actually, i've read the entire bible, beginning to end. the new testament has a lot of good teachings, and hell i would be happy to be a christian, if those teachings were what the church taught. mabye when i used to go to church i was just a young fool who didnt understand what was going on; but by going to mass and listening to what was said, i never learned even close to what i learned from reading the bible

how many christians do i know that have read the entire thing? definately not enough. i think its sad that people can call themselves christians without reading a book that basically defines their religion. i would have more respect for the religion if they did

god is fine in my book, i agree with you, the problem deals with men. people get overzealous and use religion as a means to commit horrible atrocities. i don't think this fact should be overlooked. if someone can use their religion which is supposed to be about peace, love and not harming people to do just that, i think there is a problem with the way it is taught that needs to be addressed

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by TjD


how many christians do i know that have read the entire thing? definately not enough. i think its sad that people can call themselves christians without reading a book that basically defines their religion. i would have more respect for the religion if they did

god is fine in my book, i agree with you, the problem deals with men. people get overzealous and use religion as a means to commit horrible atrocities. i don't think this fact should be overlooked. if someone can use their religion which is supposed to be about peace, love and not harming people to do just that, i think there is a problem with the way it is taught that needs to be addressed

Very well put. It basically says in a better way of what I was tryng to say.

It's sad that you have so many so called "Christians" who go around preaching about things that they do not understand and have never even read a little or most of the book. I had a converstaion a while back with two friends of mine's. One was Pentacostal and the other was Catholic. The Catholic one said that she liked her religion better because it lets her do whatever she wants. I was like what did you just say?:eek: :eek: Not only did she make herself look bad but gave a bad impression of Catholics.

If you're one of these guys READ the Bible then you can say what you want to say. Even if you misunderstood at least you have basis on something.

[TjD]

Originally posted by NorthernMantis


Very well put. It basically says in a better way of what I was tryng to say.

It's sad that you have so many so called "Christians" who go around preaching about things that they do not understand and have never even read a little or most of the book. I had a converstaion a while back with two friends of mine's. One was Pentacostal and the other was Catholic. The Catholic one said that she liked her religion better because it lets her do whatever she wants. I was like what did you just say?:eek: :eek: Not only did she make herself look bad but gave a bad impression of Catholics.

If you're one of these guys READ the Bible then you can say what you want to say. Even if you misunderstood at least you have basis on something.

you hit the nail RIGHT on the head. this is my biggest problem with the catholic religion at least is: god loves everyone, and everyone goes to heaven. i think this is a HORRIBLE lie, quite possibly the worst thing a religion could ever tell a person. telling people this is almost like condemming them to hell; seeing as they can do whatever they want and since god loves them, they'll be forgiven when they die, and will go to heaven. i sincerely doubt that this is the case.

i think christian churches would be much better if instead of doing their preaching, they had people/children read the bible, read christs teachings, help them understand those teachings, and tell them how they can apply them to their lives

[Kilik]

I saw the site and didn't bother reading any further, I think I'll go smoke some crack and then beat up a priest!

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by IronFist
At that site, did you guys also read about how Pokemon is evil? Dungeons and Dragons is evil, too. So is magic the gathering. Give me a freaking break. I bet the internet is evil too. Also, I'm sure that posting on kfo is evil. In fact, with my 1300+ posts, I must be pretty evil myself!

I would have busted out laughing when I read these articles, but the sad part is I think they are serious. I feel bad for some kid whose mom won't let him watch Pokemon because her cult church has told her that it is satanic. No wonder people are messed up.

IronFist

I actually no several people like that, one in partucular was close to my family at one time. She actually BOUGHT her daughters some pokemon stuff, but after finding out what pokemon was about (little fighting demons and humans using magic to control them) she threw the toys away and restricted her kids from watching the show. They are restricted from harry potter and lord of the rings, and anything similar in nature. also, they only music they are allowed to listen to is gospel.... they can't even watch/listen to Sclub7!!!

[awakenwired]

I seldom get into Religious debates for obvious reasons. This doesn't look like a debate however, so I'll stick in my own 2 cents i guess. I got a big problem with the way people like this site teach their religion. He took a book about Karate, quoted the author when the author was making a distinction about the art and a religion. He then said this disturbing statement:

"This impassive, "spiritually unified" mental state is identical to that achieved in yoga or other meditation-relaxation techniques, hypnosis (see related book review in this issue) or trance mediumship. The Bible forbids such emptying of the mind (Deuteronomy 18:11), calling it one of the "works of the flesh." (Galatians 5:20)"

Okay according to my Bible (King James) It says this, ( I'll back up to 18:9 so you get the WHOLE message rather then the single clippet he only wants you the hear:

"(9)When you enter the land of the Lord, your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. (10)Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination, or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, (11)or casts spells or who is a medium, or spiritualist or who or who consults the dead."

This person in my not-so-humble opinion is a fraud and has commited an act of blasphemy by implying the Bible forbids something when in fact its Never mentioned. Either that or my Sifu is totally ripping me off. To heck with kicking and punching, I should be casting Lighting, and fire!

This is the reason why I have pretty much lost faith in most organized Christian religions. And I've studied and practiced an awfull lot of them.

PS:
Galatians 5:20 is really no different then the first quote, So I'll spare you all from it.

[Mokujin]

Great letter! I'd like to see the reply- if you get one. More than likely, you probably made him pee himself.

Folks like this ignoramus do more to repel people from religion than attract. I even heard some guy on the radio saying how it's wrong if you use more than a choir to worship in church. Huh?

I think I'll file this nut in the 'Rock -N- Roll is the Devil's Music' Category.

Peace!
Mokujin

[kungfu cowboy]

It's all thanks to the evil flat five.

[TaoBoy]

Personally, I dont give a hoot who does/doesn't believe in God and who does/doesn't meditate and who does/doesn't wear black robes and chant ancient rites.

As long as those people aren't preaching to me the virtues of their particular way of life and slandering mine. Why can't we all just admit that we really don't have a clue what's going on most of the time?

Kope - I don't think this thread has been about bashing Christians. More so it is about the ignorance of one man and how he is portraying Christianity in a poor light.

BrentCarey - Great letter. Please make sure you post any reply you receive.

Peace. Out!

[IronFist]

Originally posted by SevenStar


I actually no several people like that, one in partucular was close to my family at one time. She actually BOUGHT her daughters some pokemon stuff, but after finding out what pokemon was about (little fighting demons and humans using magic to control them) she threw the toys away and restricted her kids from watching the show. They are restricted from harry potter and lord of the rings, and anything similar in nature. also, they only music they are allowed to listen to is gospel.... they can't even watch/listen to Sclub7!!!

Dude, tell her pokemon aren't demons, they're just animals. If you notice, everything in the Pokemon world that isn't a human is a pokemon (as far as I know). So, a pokemon is no more satanic than a dog or a cat.

IronFist

[SanShou Guru]

A) Bite me.

B) If we looked at the percentage of world population that was killed in each century due to religious beliefs as compared to other reasons the numbers would be much more interesting I would bet. Also the fact that more people are alive today has little barring on the percentage of people “killed” due to religion as opposed to other reasons I think you would at the very least see some spikes. And who is to say that TjK’s excellent point about technology and what its effect would have been on these body counts. The Nazi’s killed as many Jews as they could I think we are all glad they did not have better “killing” Tech.

C) How many of today wars are for reasons other that religion. The days of fighting over land and resources are all but gone (Gulf war was over oil, but was played up as a holy war by Saddum and his buddies).

Yahweh (sp?), Allah, Jesus, God, Satan, whatever who’s to say who is right? What REAL evidence is there that anyone is? Provide me ONE piece of provable evidence that ANY god exists and that would be the greatest discovery on earth. Every religion on earth came from the mind of man, man created the ALL gods. I believe in NO god of any kind and I probably “sin” less than 90% of everybody you know. But I didn’t need god to tell me how to live.

People can believe in god all they want to as long as they leave those that disagree alone. The knumbnuts in office now think that believing in god is the answer to all our problems, well there are plenty of people that believe in god and still crap on the world BECAUSE they think they are better than people that do not believe as they do.

Can you even conceive of where we would be if EVERYBODY were christen. Living happy and dumb farming in and around the Mediterranean. After all the Earth is flat and if you sail over the horizon the demons will get you. The earth is the center of the universe, and we came from sand and a guy’s rib. Research is bad, questions are bad, and knowledge is bad. Like all great lies, they only work if you don’t try to disprove them. Do we know everything, why we are here, not yet but I for one think we should try.

If I’m wrong I would be ecstatic because my life would not just end, and “god” would be the greatest scientist we could conceive of and I would love to meet him. I would like to ask him, “who created you and what existed before you (assuming time is linear)?”

I would love to hear you evidence that god exists and “because I know he does” is a cop out, and I saw “Contact” don’t try those arguments. What will happen is you will disregard what I said because to believe anything I say would disprove the one great belief in your life. You will laugh uncomfortably and/or get mad and preach at me. Maybe even make fun of typos and such to make me look like a fool and that is fine because then you are just avoiding the issue. In these cases refer to A).

Maybe, just maybe, you will have a crisis of faith and I will save YOU. In any case I wish you no harm and a long and happy life, such that it is, because ignorance is bliss. I plan on raising my children to question everything and seek truth in our “one Nation, Indivisible”. (Wow who’s preaching now?)


San Shou Guru

Atheist, scientist, father, and nice guy (most o the time ;-p).

[TaoBoy]

http://www.christianmartialartist.com/ (http://www.christianmartialartist.com/home.html)

[Kope]

I was going to post this as a private message . . but it's too **** long .. so . . .

------------


I would love to hear you evidence that god exists and “because I know he does” is a cop out, and I saw “Contact” don’t try those arguments. What will happen is you will disregard what I said because to believe anything I say would disprove the one great belief in your life. You will laugh uncomfortably and/or get mad and preach at me. Maybe even make fun of typos and such to make me look like a fool and that is fine because then you are just avoiding the issue. In these cases refer to A).

Maybe, just maybe, you will have a crisis of faith and I will save YOU. In any case I wish you no harm and a long and happy life, such that it is, because ignorance is bliss. I plan on raising my children to question everything and seek truth in our “one Nation, Indivisible”. (Wow who’s preaching now?)


SanShou -- first, just because someone believes something different from what you believe does not mean that you both don't have sufficient warrant to hold that belief.

"warrant" is a technical term from the field of epistemology -- for a belief to have warrant means that there is compelling reason for a particular person to hold that a particular belief is true. Moreover, it would be irrational for that person to deny that a warranted belief is in fact true.

Interestingly, while it used to be thought that warrant and truth where synonyms, it has recently (well, recent in terms of the history of philosophical development) been shown that they are not. It is quite possible, and indeed common, for a warranted belief to be demonstrably false. What makes this interesting is that it is still irrational to hold that that belief is NOT true -- as it is warranted!

So when you say "What will happen is you will disregard what I said because to believe anything I say would disprove the one great belief in your life." You do not demonstrate any great understanding of the subject matter you're discussing.

Have you read Lonergan's _Insight_? Or Plantinga's _Warrant and Belief_? Or perhaps Nielsen, Goetz, Cargile, Proudfoot, Shalkowski, Cahn or any of a dozen other modern atheistic philosophers who address actual questions of religious epistemological merit rather than rant.

You want to know what evidence I have that God exists? I wonder if you have even concieved of the possibility that that question is basically flawed. It's the wrong question. The question is "Can I prove that I have warrant for my belief?" "Evidence" is data. "Warrant" involves interpreting that data in a reasonable and defensible way and placing a valuation on the data as to it's importance in supporting a positioin.

I think I can do that quite adequately. Of course, warrant is by it's nature subjective. What suffices as warrant for me won't necessarily suffice for you. That isn't a problem, of course, as all beliefs are definitionally something held by a subject so it's no problem that one arrives at them subjectively -- that is AS subject. However, if you understand the concept of warrant, you'd understand that the truth of the belief is not an issue. What matters is the rationality of the belief and the value the person places on that belief in the context of their worldview.

You go on to say that ". . . because ignorance is bliss. I plan on raising my children to question everything and seek truth . . . ." A nice thinly veiled insult. I assure you I am not ignorant on this subject. Indeed, I would venture that I am far more well schooled than all but a handfull of people on this planet on this subject. That's what happens when one goes off in pursuit of graduate education in philosophy and theology with max'ed out test scores:) It's amazing what you can get money to study if you're smart enough.

Perhaps, just perhaps, it is those who believe, lacking all warrant I might add, that their evidentiary criteria for judgement on the truth of a matter requires their own conclussion in order to be rational or indeed are so deluded as to think that the "truth" is obtainable as knowledge and that it matters are the ones who are ignorantly blissful. When it comes to questions of religious epistemology, it is often the case that diametrically opposing views can both be warranted. The un-ignorant, intellectually honest people don't even use words like "prove" when talking about questions like "Does God exist?" For they have learned why that question is poorly formed.

Interestingly, there are even those people whose views on religion are nuanced enough that they can make claims like "I believe in God. I do not believe God exists."

Lastly, I'm sorry you are upset that I referred to your comment as ignorant. However, making a demonstrably false and inflammatory claim about historical fact can be attributed to 2 things that I can think of. Either the person making the claim is ignorant about the fact or the person making the claim is not ignorant about the fact. If the person is not ignorant about the fact then the person is making a false claim intentionally. Since the claim is also inflammatory, then it is natural to conclude that the person makes the knowingly false claim with intent to inflame. I preferred to presume the former as the latter would make you not worth my time.

I note further that you are now making significant adjustments on your claim .. and running to the shelter of historical "what ifs" rather than sticking to what actually obtained. To what end? To "prove" something? To save face in the forum? Historical "what ifs" are not particularly well suited arena of intellectual investigation . . . one can devise every historical "what if" to fit their pre-formed conclussions quite nicely.

[KC Elbows]

One poster commented that they didn't like catholicism because everyone gets to go to heaven.

Now, I'm rather perturbed that you should put me in a position where I'm the lone defender of catholicism, as I could care less, but, if I recall correctly, this tenet is wrong.

Those who seek forgiveness for their sins go to heaven. However, they must honestly seek forgiveness, and not seek forgiveness for selfish reasons.

So those catholics who confess because they are expected to, by catholic doctrine, are going straight to hell. Those who do it because they don't want to go to hell are also going straight to hell. Those who do it because they like being a catholic are also going to hell, as well as those who do it because their church expects them to, and, of course, those who do it because they feel special having one on one time with a priest are going to hell, too.

In fact, it was always my understanding that most everyone is going to hell, and that is why the property value is so low down there.

In fact, by catholic doctrine, all of you are going to hell, including Ryu, who, for a while, wasn't going to hell, then all this cyber-fornication began with chickypoo, and god really hates sado masochists, which, of course, means that the clergy are also going to hell with Ryu.

To my knowledge, all the fun people are going to hell in the catholic world.

I hope I straightened out your view of catholicism and hell. You can assume that everything I just said is absolutely true.

[SanShou Guru]

Excellent and well thought out response, one of the best I have ever received. I very rarely have such an intelligent and well schooled person with which to debate the issue of religion and its impact on the world. I admit you are better schooled in religion than I and seem to certainly have more historical information although you still pick and choose your comments to examine.

You say;
-“The question is "Can I prove that I have warrant for my belief?" "Evidence" is data. "Warrant" involves interpreting that data in a reasonable and defensible way and placing a valuation on the data as to it's importance in supporting a positioin.”

-I think I can do that quite adequately. Of course, warrant is by it's nature subjective. What suffices as warrant for me won't necessarily suffice for you. That isn't a problem, of course, as all beliefs are definitionally something held by a subject so it's no problem that one arrives at them subjectively -- that is AS subject. However, if you understand the concept of warrant, you'd understand that the truth of the belief is not an issue. What matters is the rationality of the belief and the value the person places on that belief in the context of their worldview.”


The flaw with this there is no defensible data that you or anybody has been able to provide. Warrant and truth were dissected because truth relies on fact only and warrant can rely on faith as well. To believe something must be true does not make it true, as you well know. The bible is hearsay as best and because it was written by people who believe they knew what god wanted or worse yet he spoke to or through. It’s meaning was formed by the need of those interpreting their belief. Worse yet, the false prophet (obviously I believe that ALL prophets are false, but not all were evil) that abuses peoples belief to their own benefit. I should also point out that you say you can quite “adequately” defend you position then don’t, not that I thought you could or would.

You should read:
“How to Think About Weird Things: Critical Thinking for a New Age”
by Theodore Schick, Lewis Vaughn (you can find it on amazon)

It’s a great text on critical thinking and making logical arguments. It has a great section on why faith is a weak argument.

-”You go on to say that ". . . because ignorance is bliss. I plan on raising my children to question everything and seek truth . . . ." A nice thinly veiled insult.”

A test.

-“I assure you I am not ignorant on this subject. Indeed, I would venture that I am far more well schooled than all but a handfull of people on this planet on this subject. That's what happens when one goes off in pursuit of graduate education in philosophy and theology with max'ed out test scores It's amazing what you can get money to study if you're smart enough.”

It certainly seems that way but many of the smartest, well schooled people on earth were wrong about their beliefs at the time. I put this to you; why do you believe god exists and do you believe in creationism and the rest? How would you interpret life on another planet like bacteria on Mars on in the oceans under the ice of Io, or even another sentient race? Would that turn religion on it’s ear? Do you believe that there is a possiblity that there is no god?