Bagua Dao

[Eight_Triagram_Boxer]

Why is it that the dao(saber) is the main weapon, or weapon of choice, in Bagua?

[Crimson Phoenix]

It is?

[count]

I almost made the same reply yesterday. Could you clerify your question eight_trigram_boxer?

My weapon of choice is the elbow daggers. In our system we have a bagua dao, but it is about 5 ft long and weighs enough so you have to train your whole body with it. The other normal sized saber form we have, I believe comes from Hsing-I in the first place. As I understand it, since a lot of the early bagua men were guards in the imperial palace, and no weapons were allowed inside the palace, so the weapons of choice were smaller ones that could be concealed up the sleeves.

[Lincoln]

My weapon of choice is the spear. It trains whole body power, finesse, fa jing and it has very good range.
I heard that Gong Bao Tian was allowed to carry a sword in the Imperial Palace and that it was his favorite weapon. I think that he was about the only one allowed to do so.

Lincoln

[count]

Finally, some bagua posting from Lincoln.;) Interesting comment on Gong's weapon of choice. How did you like the photo of Gong Bao Tien I sent you?

[Eight_Triagram_Boxer]

OK, you all may prefer another weapon but in every style of Bagua the one weapon that is common to all is the Dao. Why? That's the question.
Lincoln, in the palace a lot of the guards were allowed to carry a dao, they were not allowed to carry a jian. That is reserved for royalty. It wasn't just Gong. If you think I'm wrong then just go check some history books.

[RAF]

Historically the dao is a foot soldier's weapon. The 4 traditional weapons are dao, jian, staff and spear. Being common does not necessarily mean being the main or weapon of choice. Bagua is characterized by its use of "wierd" weapons. [by wierdness I am referring to the design. There is actually a Chinese word used to characterized the weapons of the system but I can't remember. However wierd they may look, they are extremely functional)].

That's interesting about the dao and bodyguards. What history book have you read that states that the bodyguards within the Palace carried daos as their weapon?

I think the Count is correct in his assertion about weapons being carried within the Palace. I am sure that foot soldiers used the dao outside the palace. The dao is the easiest (quick, too) to learn effectively of the 4 weapons and very expansive in movement in contrast to the sword which is more refined in movement. You find the same relationship with the staff (more expansive) to the spear (expansive but also very refined).

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/bagua/machuanxu.html

Read the article by Ma Chaunxu in Jarek's website. According to his article there is no main weapon in bagua and given the diversity of its practitioners and that they were all skilled in some other art before training in bagua, that makes sense.

Also scroll down and read the importance of training with the da qiang to develop shenfa. Lincoln is right on target!

[kungfu cowboy]

Hey count, have you got any pics of these elbow daggers, or could you please describe them? Sounds cool.

[Eight_Triagram_Boxer]

OK...
:D

[count]

I asked my friend in China right now to find some for me. If he does, I will post a pic. Basically they cuff around the elbows and can be pointed on one side or both. Very good in close. Works perfectly with our bagua 12 elbows set.

Good post RAF, thanks for the links.

[kungfu cowboy]

That's ok. They sound neat.

[batesy]

Could one answer be that the slashing movements characteristic of broadsword are more in keeping with the turning, spiralling moves of bagua? Or is this too simplistic an explanation?

[maoshan]

Peace All

batesy

Beyond the basic four,(dao, jian, staff and spear, All the weapons
of Ba-Gua are designed for that effect. The DeerHorn Knives as well as the tigerhook swords are even more suited for the charecteristics of Ba-Gua. as for me, I Love the Deerhorn knives but my favorite weapon is the spear.

Peace
Maoshan

[TaoBoxer]

Of all the "Traditional" ba gua weapons I have played with (I say Play b/c I have never been instructed in any of them formally) I really like the paired daggers the best. I also think they are the most practical for the 21st century.

I have a pair of Deer Hook Swords, Mandarin Duck Axes, Needles (made by Bladerigger!!) my Daggers, and the Jian, Dao, Spear and Cudgel.

Interestingly, I was playing with a japanese Jo and I had a lot of fun with that... Incorporating some of the whipping Jo techniques of Kukishinden with the turns.... It was interesting.

Bill

[Nexus]

For those who train staff and spear,

Are there any merchants that have nice quality spears for sale? Also are there any staffs which weigh a good deal more than ratan or bamboo and could be used to build up additional strength in the arms. Oak perhaps?

Staff and Spear Experts, I await your answers. :)

[MonkeyBoy]

Oak is heavier but White Waxwood takes much more of a beating.

[maoshan]

Peace All,

Nexus


In recent years the quality has really gotten bad. I myself have a white oak staff and 2 really good spears that I got back in the mid 80's. as far as buying one goes i've been thinking about trying
out the stuff on this site and Kungfu/Qigong. I'm in the Process of looking for a Double head spear. With the exception of one, all I've ever seen were extremly cheap in terms of Quality across the board. Too short, too thin etc. We are in the process of working to get some quality weapons from China. If it happens I'll post a notice.


Peace.
Maoshan

[RAF]

http://forums.bajimen.com/
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Traditional Weapons (ŒÃ•ºŠí)
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Spear making (was re: LSW article...) 11 07/22 02:11am


Nexus, there is a pretty interesting discussion about making spears (one's over ten foot).

Its important to know where to taper the spear.

Oak tends to be very heavy and you can damage yourself rather quickly. The spear has to have length and flexibility and you should be able to see some of the circular motion when you retrieve and turn over the spear after punching. Literally looks like a spiral of a screw.

Can anyone point me in the direction of some articles on spear training in the bagua system? I would like to read anything about the specific training exercises. I have seen Xing Yi da qiang spear training (I know only one exercise in it but xing yi is not my area of practice) and also see it in Miller and Cartmell's book.

Mike Patterson does some pretty interesting bagua staff exercises. Jerry Alan Johnson has a tape on the bagua staff but I have never seen it.

Any direction would be most appreciated.

[count]

Iron wood is the way to go. Good luck finding it though. We order our Bai Lian (wax wood) poles from China. They usually come 10 foot. They are the whole tree. The ones we use for sparring. But lately they have been coming a little warped and the last batch of iron wood poles that came wasn't even iron wood. Heavy, but too brittle. I wouldn't recommend ordering from them. You should try it hands on. When I got mine I paid 40 dollars and the last batch they charged 90 bucks. Try contacting Brendon Lai in SF.

[Lincoln]

I always get my spears at Brendan Lai's here in San Francisco. It usually takes a couple of trips until I find the one that I like. The most important thing when choosing a spear is looking out for the Powder Worm holes. If you can see tiny little holes that look like pin holes in your waxwood then that piece of wood has worms! They tunnel throught the wood and make it very brittle and they can spread to uninfected piece's of wood. I have had spears literally explode on me because of the worms.

Count:
Thank you for the images that you sent. Unfortunately I have already seen those.

RAF:
If you are going to go to the tournament in September I could show you a basic spear exercise from the Gong Bao Tian style. I just do not think that I will be bringing a spear with me from California and I really wanted to do the spear form at the competition. Maybe someone will let me borrow one.

Lincoln

[Walter Joyce]

Good tip on the wood worms, I have experienced similar problems with waxwood staffs.

[RAF]

Lincoln:

I won't be at the Bagua Tournament in NY because its too close to our Hall of Fame Tournament.

If you get into Akron, just pop into Tony Yang's school on Arlington. We aren't far from the University.

Rockwood has stopped by twice.

Thanks for the offerand I hope to see you there sometime. I would enjoy seeing the bagua spear flavor. The Hall of Fame Tournament is on the Oct 5 weekend.

[Spirit Writer]

If it's a true waxwood pole it will not have woods. "wax" is related to winter, and if the tree is cut in winter it will have no worms.

[tomasz]

Originally posted by count
I asked my friend in China right now to find some for me. If he does, I will post a pic. Basically they cuff around the elbows and can be pointed on one side or both. Very good in close. Works perfectly with our bagua 12 elbows set.

Good post RAF, thanks for the links.

I don't think so that your friend will be able to find it. My teacher specially ordered it from manufacture because it is impossible to buy it. the funny is that he needed to draw a plans for them becauce they have not idea how to do it (the bigger kung fu weapon manufacture in North China:D )

where is your friend now? in Fushun? if is this that guy forget that he will be able to find soemthing in Fushun. it is my girlfriend hometown i know this place pretty well.
regards

[count]

How did your teachers come out, as far as support? Any chance I could get a copy of the plans he drew? How about iron knuckles. Have you seen any kind of selection there?

[tomasz]

Originally posted by count
How did your teachers come out, as far as support? Any chance I could get a copy of the plans he drew? How about iron knuckles. Have you seen any kind of selection there?

i will try to get for you this plans. but as far i see yours asa little different than ours (i saw a photo)
regards
tomasz

[count]

I'm sure that would be excellent. You say you saw a picture of ours? Where?

[tomasz]

Originally posted by count
I'm sure that would be excellent. You say you saw a picture of ours? Where?

in taiwanise wushu magazine

[LingChuanPai]

Have you seen any Bagua Da Dao's for sale anywhere? Online, or whatever?
Thanks,
LCP:cool:

[Plymouth Rocks]

You mean like this one? Me, my teacher, and my senior:
http://www.yizongbagua.com/Boston%2004%20gallery/pages/Sword%201%20sm_JPG.htm

[GeneChing]

But the market is still too small. :(

Hopefully this will help stimulate interest. :cool:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIdtk3gGbOA