Question for the day

[fa_jing]

What does it take to develop the flexibility required to be a masterful Wing Chun kicker? Not just an effective WC kicker. It seems that especially the hip and ankle must be loosened.
-FJ

[old jong]

But I find very helpful and true to the system to kick the dummy at the "normal" Wing Chun distance. We are not looking for big TKD or Muay Thai types of kicks anyway!
So,let the kicks help your hands!...;)

[fa_jing]

I mean like being able to hook the other guy's kick with your foot, then kicking a pressure point with an angled kick. I mean like being able to snap the other guy's knee joint by hitting his foot from underneath at the end of his front kick like in "warriors 2" These movements require a high degree of flexibility.

We have some specialized stretching exercises that we do, like putting your foot up on a high bench, turning it out (rotating the thigh) and bending head to knee, another one you turn it out even more but bend the knee, so that the outside of your foot is laying flat on the bench, and bend your torso towards your ankle.

Any others? Will Wing Chun kicking drills alone develop this kind of flexibiilty?

[old jong]

Well!...Do you want to do Wing Chun or imitate some movie stunts?...
There are schools for movie stunts and others teach Wing Chun!

[fa_jing]

In the movies they combine other styles with Wing Chun, but alot of it is real WC. I don't know the full capabilities of Wing Chun kicking, but I know enough to know that it contains some techniques that require a high degree of flexibility. Even the techniques that I have studied already, I cannot execute them all correctly. I'm still making gradual progress to be able to side kick properly without pivoting. I definitely have a very restricted range and effectiveness with the lotus kick (inside-outside kick).

Also, I believe there are different levels to the peng tui (raised knee defense). I currently study the method where you hang the lower leg straight down as you deflect an incoming kick, and you can counter-kick from there. But there are some other methods, for instance William Chueng turns his hip over as he does this. Also there are a lot of variations between the Wing Chun lineages and it wouldn't surprise me if some hooking action can be done with the foot here.

Maybe someone can speak to the high-level possibilities of Wing Chun kicking here.

-FJ

[kungfu cowboy]

Even though you are speaking in terms of flexibility, which might give the opinion that you are talking about high or fancy kicks, you mean as applied to close-range kicks, right?

[fa_jing]

Flexibility here refers to kicks executed at chest height or below, especially low kicks that require bending at the hip, rotation of the thigh, a particular ankle position, or overall flexibility to intercept his kick and kick him back fluidly. Kicking from all angles but low-to-medium. Again, for someone who has mastered WC kicking (usually somewhat secretive/non-published area of the art), what are the traditional drills that are used to create flexibility in the kicker? I know there's a kicking dummy, that would surely help, as well as the kicking drills in the air and the kicks on the wooden dummy. I have only done the preset Chi gerk drill, I don't know if there's a more advanced version? What I don't see, is any swing kicks like you see practiced in Northern Shaoling, Karate and TKD. So what are the ways that WC increases flexibility of the leg muscles and joints? SLT on one leg?
Anything else?

[yuanfen]

Fajing- regarding legs. Even though wing chun uses hand motions rather than legs from an initial observation...wing chun is very rich in kicks. Kicks, footwork and turning and stepping are all inter-related. You just have to be attentive to issues of stability when kicking. In practice you can kick high for devlopment if you want to depending on your own limitations and i have some...though for application you play it safer and lower.
For kicking, hooking and other development...do good front kicks
in the air- as many as you can build upto... develop kicking combinations also in the air. Dont worry about power when kicking in the air just like air punches...that will keep you from tightening up. Dont worry too much about the hips despite Bruce Lee. In the harmonies... wing chun is more about the elbows and knees in motion. I have my students do lots of leg drills for leg flexibilty for wing chun kicks. TKD kicks are different and require a different kind of flexibilty..

[TjD]

lately i've been training the kicks a lot, and i still need a bit of flexibility :) i've talked to my sifu about this and basically what it came down to is if you want the flexibility for the wing chun kicks, do them, do them often, and do lots of them

that will open up your hips and give you the flexibility you need
it's very similar to when you begin wing chun and your upper body is all tense, i think a lot of it is just learning to keep your hips/legs/lower body relaxed just like you keep your upper body relaxed - the best way to fix the upperbody being tense was to practice punches and do chi sau; its the same with the legs: practice kicks and chi gerk

even after a few weeks of doing a couple hundred kicks a few times a day (morning noon night, whenever im bored), i can already feel the difference in my leg flexibility

just have to keep up the hard work :)


travis

[Chum Kil]

Good answer Yuanfen. What I learned so far is a few kicking combos, and stretching the hip flexors. We kick into the air for explosion only and for warming up prior to WC drills. Sifu has taken out a few hand techniques and kicks for these warmups, which also have been taken out of the forms. This also helps the student with the forms, when the student gets to one of these sections, he/she already has done this part and just needs to get familar with the new part. As far as I know we do not do Chi Gerk. I believe the footwork and kicking combos replaces the Chi Gerk.

[fa_jing]

Thanks, I agree with everyone who said that the key to kicking development is to kick lots. I know that when I have been able to put this kind of work in, I have definitely felt improvement in hip flexibility and general leg flexibilty. Do you feel specialized static stretching is necessary as well, or will the standard touch your toes, do the splits be sufficient? Actually I do a little Yoga as well, but I'm curious what instructors like Yuanfen have their students do here.

[S.Teebas]

I agree with everyone who said that the key to kicking development is to kick lots.

First you should work out how arms move, then notice the relationship between arms and legs. Actually i think you can learn alot about your legs through your arms. I agree with who suggested 1 leged SLT to help improve kicks.

[anerlich]

An oft-neglected part of flexibility development for kicking is increasing the flexibility of the internal and external rotators of the hips, as well as the flexors, extensors and adductors.

I believe slow kicking, with/without ankle weights has improved my kicking abilities markedly.

Full power/speed kicks in the air are generally regarded as a bad idea due to the potential for joint injury. If you want to kick hard, kick a bag or dummy.

I find I'm spending more time on yoga for flexibility and core strength, interspersed with some RMA-style shinbox and squat exercises which have greatly improved the articulation in hips, ankles and knees. Yoga doesn't have to be all static positions and breathing, some of the sequences can be quite physically demanding and develop active rather than static flexibility.

A lot of Wing Chun kicks involve a dexterity in moving the various joint of the legs in concert, in spiralling and circular as well as straight lines, a dexterity which most untrained individuals do not have. One of my teachers said you baically want to be able to use your legs as if the were another pair of arms. The same is true in BJJ, FWIW.

I'm still making gradual progress to be able to side kick properly without pivoting.
Can you elaborate? Personally I've always believed the power in the sidekick to come from the alignment and hip movement the pivot provides, and that without the pivot you don't have a side kick but some sort of bstd-ised front kick. Just my opinion, please correct me if you think I'm off base.

for instance William Chueng turns his hip over as he does this.
Can you elaborate? I'm from that lineage and I'm not sure what you're getting at.

[EnterTheWhip]

Kicking.

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by anerlich

Can you elaborate? Personally I've always believed the power in the sidekick to come from the alignment and hip movement the pivot provides, and that without the pivot you don't have a side kick but some sort of bstd-ised front kick. Just my opinion, please correct me if you think I'm off base.

OK, depends on what you're using the sidekick for and where it is coming from. I favor the use of both the pivoted and unpivoted side kick, and the unpivoted kick streches the hips, and will help you stay more upright with your pivoted kick, assuming that you are not pivoting 180 degrees away like a TKD guy. Yes, in order to fully utilize the buttocks muscles you need the pivoted kick which uses the opposite direction of circular motion of the hip of the base leg, from the unpivoted kick. When I say unpivoted, I mean in practicality a 90 degree angle of the standing foot from front. This is useful for a check kick with the front leg(no time to pivot, ) also you can throw a really powerful rear leg sidekick by first opening up the front foot, then pulling your knee through and kicking in one motion. To pivot past 90 degrees with you base foot here messes up your rooting for the kick. Actually, it's the exact same motion as the rear-leg front kick which my old Chueng-style instructor taught me, only the lead hip has to be turned over and the joint compressed. Also, in the unpivoted version of the kick you can stay more upright and move forward and follow up with either hand. The power can be generated from another source: your forward movement, much like our punches where you hit with the force of your whole body. The unpivoted kick is basically more compact and I consider it to be the higher level kick.


Originally posted by anerlich

Can you elaborate? I'm from that lineage and I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Okay, when we block a kick with our legs, the lower part of the leg hangs straight down perpendicular to the floor and the incoming kick is guided to the right or left. I haven't seen the Chueng-style method in person, but my sifu was describing how he saw GM Chueng do it in a seminar. Apparently he was rotating at the hip so that the lower leg was at about a 45 degree angle with the floor. This is consistent with what I saw Sifu Joe Sayah demonstrate in a magazine called "Martial Arts legends presents Kicking." He blocked a kick with the lower leg at an angle (foot out, knee in) and followed up with a high round kick, which seemed quite natural from this position. While we tend to follow up with any one of the following from our raised leg block position: stomp, front, or side kick, all usually to the opponent's base leg. It seemed like the stomp kick with the front foot turned out would be difficult from the postion Sifu Joe Sayah was assuming. Yet I could see the use of it. Actually, in the movie "Warriors 2" which I mentioned before, the man playing Leung Jan would perform this leg check with the lower leg at an angle to the floor in the other direction (foot in, knee out), similar to the position your legs are in when you are sitting cross-legged on the floor, although not quite so extreme. I don't know if this is a form of Wing Chun or if it was an add-on for the movie.
-FJ

[yuanfen]

Fajing- Do you have to "block" a kick?

[TjD]

yf- sure you gotta block a kick! just like you block all the punches that come at you right? :rolleyes:

you especially have to make sure you use your hands to hard block those roundhouse kicks to your head/chest, if not your in a lot of trouble!

[fa_jing]

"Okay, when we block a kick with our legs, the lower part of the leg hangs straight down perpendicular to the floor and the incoming kick is guided to the right or left"

That defines my sporadic reversion to the deeply embedded use of the work "block"

It is usefull to learn to block kicks, just as it is usefull to learn to block punches. Kicks generally can be avoided with footwork a bit more easily then punches, which are faster. The advantage when you guide/restrain/redirect/block is that you are establishing contact with your opponent, restricting his motion from a calculated position, and can influence his actions with your own energy/force, which is an aim of our style. I find for instance that when I aim able to block a punch, I know how to move from that postion because that's what we practice. From there I can often trap or shift my arms and land a punch. Also punching from the "block" position directly, so important. I haven't acheived the simluataneous block and punch in sparring. But I definitely have blocked with my leg and landed a punch, and other wise engaged up top. Yes, it's fighting on one leg, but so's he. Legs vs. legs, arms vs, arms, ever heard of it? :rolleyes: Oh, I guess that's footwork only vs. legs ??????

[anerlich]

To pivot past 90 degrees with you base foot here messes up your rooting for the kick.
I'm not so sure. If your foot is at 90, the reactionary force is going to be moving straight across your foot. If it's at 180, I think you actually have much better control over your balance, though I would agree recovery definitely takes longer.
Different philosophy I guess. You're looking (I think) to stay more upright and close and punch, I'm looking for a longer range kick that allows me to strike while staying out of counterpunching range.

He blocked a kick with the lower leg at an angle (foot out, knee in)
Right, I've seen that mag, though it was a long time back and I don't remember it too well. My first instructor, who trained with Cheung Sigung in the late 1960's, use to use that or something very similar to deflect a kick to the outside, the angle of the lower leg provides a lifting and dispersing effect, providing extra space to, in his case, slip in a low line kick, like a shin kick to the kicking leg. I would imagine a low stomp kick would work from there OK too, though one would need to be more accurate.
With the shin inclined the other way, was the incoming kick deflected to the inside or the outside? Used to the inside, this is a pretty standard crane-style sweep, the ankle and instep also usable to provide extra control. Side kick to the supporting leg is a standard follow up. The similar technique is in the standard predetermined chi gerk drill we practice.

[fa_jing]

Right, in the movie it was a block to the inside, and the shin and ankle/foot used to control as you stated. It wouldn't surprise me if the actor in this case had been influenced by white crane, since in one case he followed up the leg block/catch) with a jumping crescent kick.

In the magazine I mentioned, individuals from TWC, WT, and YKS all demonstrated the leg blocks and counters with minor variations, and from my sifu who learned under Yip Man's descendants we practice these as well (as well as a counter to the counter kick!) . In my old 7* praying mantis class, I saw Master Kwan demonstrate a different sort of leg block against a front kick, where he stood side-facing and managed to pick up the kick sliding against the side of his leg, it was quite impressive. So it is a tactic that spans across martial arts, FWIW.

-FJ

[Mr Punch]

My sifu (not from William Cheung's line) has shown us a kick deflection like the one you describe fajing. It's for when you are late or you need more stability in your deflection.

Of course, the ideal is to kick straight up the centreline or straight to the post leg, but as you said the angle for a post leg kick is improved by this angling outward (your knee still has the centre), if they are attempting to occupy the centreline.

He likens another use of it to the bong sau: when you roll a bong under your opponent's arm to expose his armpit and side, or to take his centre and unbalance him or turn his corner. Similarly, it gives you a naturally powerful structure when you raise your knee on centre, with your foot out and it (your knee) slips slightly beneath your opponent's rising leg.

That was a terrible description all round! My apologies: it's late and I'll try again sometime!:o

maybe not... I think anerlich's post covered it... bugger!

[fa_jing]

Mat: is that what Bon Gerk is?? I never figured out what our standard terms mean when applied to the legs. But I have heard of Bon Gerk, jut gerk, tan gerk, etc.

-FJ

[stuff]

I'm having a bunch of trouble with my WC sidekick. I'm used to the TKD sidekick since thats what I used to do. I feel a major lack of power. Any suggestions?

[yuanfen]

stuff-

do a lot of chor ma- chum kiu turning. Wing chun side kicks
use a different set of alignmnets from tkd.

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by stuff
I'm having a bunch of trouble with my WC sidekick. I'm used to the TKD sidekick since thats what I used to do. I feel a major lack of power. Any suggestions?
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To pivot past 90 degrees with you base foot here messes up your rooting for the kick.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I'm not so sure. If your foot is at 90, the reactionary force is going to be moving straight across your foot. If it's at 180, I think you actually have much better control over your balance, though I would agree recovery definitely takes longer.

[...]

OK guys. I, like stuff, studied TKD back in my teens. It was very difficult to adjust to the WC sidekick. Basically, the power comes from the forward momentum of your body + the horizontal stomp of the leg, the way to generate this power is to get your body moving forward, like with the exchange step (bring your rear foot to your front then kick with lead leg). Or, by kicking from the rear leg with momentum. If you are straining to get the correct hip position, it will take away the power of the kick, so you may have trouble at first. Also remember that there is a version of the kick without much power or body movement that is used more for checking/bothering. In answer to Anerlich, because your momentum is moving forward, that counter acts the backwards force created by Newton's third law. Again I draw the parallel to a front kick - in the front kick, your base foot does not point back, yet you should not fall over when you kick something solid, because you perform the kick with forward momentum. In practicality, I rarely acheive the 90 degree placement of the base leg, more like 100+ degrees, but it is a goal I work for. There is another version that I do which is at about 125 degrees back, and more lean back in the direction of the base foot, this will take you out of range of the opponent's punches and is less committed. Should have used that one yesterday: I went for a side-kick with sloppy form and my sifu sidestepped it and rang my bell with a whipping punch. Remember that each kick has it's use, one of my goals with the unpivoted kick is to be able to engage the opponent with my arms, from a sitting horse (side-on) stance and just lift up the rear foot and kick - meaning that the base foot is going to be at less than 90 degrees from the opponent. My Sifu told me once that TKD and Karate have specific angles that they strive to kick from, while in CMA kicks come from any angle. Basically I want to be able to throw kicks in a continuum from outwardly turned front kick to inwardly turned front/side mix to a fully pivoted TKD kick (also called Tiger's tail kick in some lineages.)

Another major use of the unpivoted side kick: low targets. You won't find as much trouble with this. Let's say you've just executed one of the aformentioned leg blocks. For decent stability, your base leg is going to be about 50-55 degrees from front. If you follow up with a low sidekick without setting your leg down, you don't want to pivot from there, except maybe slightly. You may find that your kicking foot isn't exactly parallel to the ground - doesn't matter if it points slightly up, as long as the contact area is correct.

P.S. I still find the ol' step-behind sidekick from TKD to be a good method of delivering a pivoted sidekick. The only way I've modified it is to not place my foot down a full 180 degrees back, since I no longer practice this way.

P.P.S. Using a TKD sidekick is like walking around with the biggest, heaviest gun. While sometimes what you want is a lighter, concealable, easier to draw, fast gun that still packs a decent punch, and you won't get it caught in a narrow passageway. My apologies for a crappy analogy but I hope you get the point.

Just my opinions!!
-FJ

[anerlich]

P.P.S. Using a TKD sidekick is like walking around with the biggest, heaviest gun. While sometimes what you want is a lighter, concealable, easier to draw, fast gun that still packs a decent punch, and you won't get it caught in a narrow passageway. My apologies for a crappy analogy but I hope you get the point.

I think it was a good analogy.