Myth of the military

[fgxpanzerz]

Anyone ever heard of this? People like to think that if they join the armed forces they will become superhuman fighters/supersmart, whatever. AND if someone is a member of the "dreaded" marine corps or is a "Navy SEAl" then they have even more super powers. Let's be realistic here. If someone is a bad a$$, they would've been no matter what training they had. The military doesnt do anything super for u. Some marines I've talked to said they learned a lot of fighting stuff and others have said they didnt learn d!ck in the marines.

[guohuen]

True. But the SEALS really are that good. Ranger school nearly killed me, but the two SEALs in my class barely woke up for it.

[ewallace]

As for physical fighting skills maybe not. As for mental toughness and confidence, I would not want to try and match up in those areas with a navy SEAL.

[fgxpanzerz]

CAn u honestly say this for every friggin seal? Fighting takes years to become good at. You cant become a superduper master in basic training.

[ewallace]

show me any training that's as physically and mentally exhausting as SEAL training. It certainly won't be found in any kwoon or temple.

[fgxpanzerz]

confidence can only bring u so far. Confidence without skill is nothing and vicaversa.

[fgxpanzerz]

Do you think George W. Bush has a lot of mental tougness. Who knows. But whether or not he does, he is the most powerful man in the world. I know a guy who is a millioniare and he doesnt have any kind of toughness at all. So what does this seal training actually give u?

[ewallace]

Physical ability can bring you even ****her. Couple that along with good fighting ability and unwavering confidence and you have a pretty **** formidable opponent. I don't think that anyone style/gender/nationality/career path of fighter is superior to everyone else.

Remember that most special forces folks prefer to use tools over their bare hands. You also must realize that most of these folks have had bullets fly not far from their head in a hostile foriegn environment. If that isn't reality training I don't know what is.

[ewallace]

Dubya was in the freakin coast gaurd. I don't view many career politicans as warriors.

What does SEAL training give you? How much do you know about them? Have you ever seen any documentaries on the Discovery channel? Those look hard as hell, and from what I'm told what they show isn't even the half of it. One massive factor that a navy SEAL will develop is the ability to push on no matter how tired his body tells him he is. Now, SEAL training is not the only place where you can get this, but it is on of the very, very few that it is done to an extreme extent.

[fgxpanzerz]

Only dumb people join the military and/or become police officers. The smart ones go to college. I'm not saying that everyone in the military is dumb or that everyone in college is smart. Unless the military is a career path, what does it help u with? You cant get a good job without a college degree of some type(this can be disputed.) I know a guy who I'd feel safe with anywhere. I'd bet my money that he could beat anyone with just military/seal/marine training. He's a crazy mofo and he'll kill ya!

[fgxpanzerz]

forget mental tougness. i used to work at mcdonald's and that provided tons of mental toughness(seriously). I got a book on the marine/navy seal fighting program. It consisted of a lot of grabs of guys with knives and then flipping them over his shoulder. Come on!!!! Who the heck would do that?

The battlefield of a war is...slightly different from a bar/street confrontation. Would it be wise to wrestle a person when she or he has 3 friends that are ready to pound your face in?

[ewallace]

Have you ever met a SEAL? I know plenty of crazy mother ****ers that will kill ya too. SEALs are, for the most part, highly intelligent despite what many think. I've heard so many stories of college athletes such as amercan football players, which I might add are some of the best conditioned athletes in the world, and they couldn't last a week.

Believe me I had a chance to spend the day with a couple of BUDS instructors. They were nice as could be but there was an aura about them. You could just feel that it would not be a very wise idea to **** with them.


Only dumb people join the military and/or become police officers. The smart ones go to college.
That's a completely ignorant statement. The military is, despite not being it's intention, probably the next best thing for those who CANNOT AFFORD to go to college. Aside from folks like me who got lucky and are good with computers, most folks without a college degree won't have a very good paying job. My friend just joined the navy. All the trade schools you go to for your chosen field count as college credit. And after that, he has around $500,000 USD that can be used for education.

So, he will probably come out with a college degree, plenty of cash in the bank, and money to go graduate school if need be. Military service looks outstanding on a resume. It is much easier to get approved for car loans and home loans if you are former/active military.

[ewallace]

I got a book on the marine/navy seal fighting program
Horse****. You may have S.C.A.R.S. or some program by someone who claims (sometimes with merit) that they are a former SEAL h2h instructor. As for having the current SEAL hand to hand combat material, well, I have a bridge in new york to sell you...really cheap.

I don't wish to carry on this conversation with you. You obviously have some bias to the military, and from your statements I would guess you are around eighteen? If you seriously believe that mickey D's gives you mental toughness you have much to experience.

It wouldn't be wise to do anything to 3 people that want to bash your face in. I don't give a **** what style or training you have. It's not a good idea.

[fgxpanzerz]

You and I are having our own debate. Anyway, take this into mind. I dont know if military enrollment is high or not right now. BUT, when the economy is doing great(like it used to be) military enrollment is low. When the economy is not doing well, military enrollment is higher. Why do you think it works out like this? They lie to u. The marines always have advertisements involving happy looking tall white males. It makes u think things that arent true. I study sociology, i know a little about this.

[ewallace]

Yeah and McDonalds shows us a healthy looking burger with fluffy hamburger buns with a half-inch thick patty. When you get there you get the buns of an 85 year old's ass and a thin disc that resembles meat. You have to do the research or you have no one to blame but yourself.

They say that war is good for the economy. So after a war the economy usually rises. The need for military personel will usually decline following a war. These are by no means facts, as that is not my area of knowledge.

And FTR, I have never been in the military.

[Kope]

Look, the whole point of spec ops training is to push your body PAST all reasonable breaking point and still maintain the highest standards of mental clarity, teamwork, and raw all-out savagry -- all at the same time.

If you have the slightest defect when it comes to physical or mental conditioning and you are trying to make it through the spec ops courses you WILL fail, period.

I did support work for the Green Berets when I served. These guys are just f'ing good. They are the highest level of professionals there are. The seals are the same way. Rangers are a **** close second, ditto Marine Recon and AF Air/Sea rescue.

They have different missions and train differently, but they are bad ass.

And, frankly, most of them - while certainly tough before they joined - would not have reached the levels they do in the service without the kind of intense, demanding, back-breaking training they receive - combined with the real life-on-the-line missions they do run all the **** time. (SEALS, ASR, and GBs are doing it for real all the time all over the world).

I got to go to air assault school that was held specifically for the new spec ops guys coming into the unit I supported (I got to wear the beanie - but never went to the Q course, just to be clear :). I was a **** good soldier - but they wasted me all day long in every activity. Not only did that, but they then rubbed salt in my wounds by coming back to help me with anything I had a problem on to make sure I finished too . . . and I'm not to proud to say that there were days that they practically carried me through the training.

Now, this was NOT the typical AA course - it was run at a higher level with the idea that the guys taking it demanded harder training. But even so -- after the 2 weeks I was completely incapable of doing anything. While a number of guys I was with hoped on a plane for a 15 hour flight to drop into northern iraq . . .

Sorry - but top-end military training does turn you into a major bad-ass.

Of course, every 150th person you meet who tells you they where spec-ops probably was . . .

(one of the reasons I'm quick to point out that I didn't wear the tab or go to the q-course .. I was just attached to mission support )

[dnc101]

Originally posted by fgxpanzerz
forget mental tougness. i used to work at mcdonald's and that provided tons of mental toughness(seriously).

fgmcwarior- I generaly respect those who post here, even if I disagree with them. But for someone like you who has never been there to talk trash about the military really disgusts me. While you are fliping burgers and spreading your brand of filth, the people you so much despise have volunteered to put their butts on the line to defend your freedom. You are beneath contempt.

[fgxpanzerz]

The united states isnt as free as you'd like to believe. Everyone reads things differently and i guess u guys read my posts the wrong way. JEez! I'm talking about fighting skills here!!!!! Not how good the military is for people and their tough guy attitudes. Ewallace and I were having a discussion that was far off the topic. You have contempt for me? Too bad. My life goes on. This is a question I always ask people who support war. Would you volunteer to fight a war? They always say 'no.' You will probably say something corny like, "I would gladly fight for my country and to protect the lives of my family and the freedom of America!" How old are you? If you're too old to serve in the military than shut up cause I'm not too old yet and if the "selective service act" was put into play, I'd be sent away.



CAn we please get back to fighting skills learned in the military? I dont care about dropping out of helicopters or raping little girls from other countries(us military personell have a nack for doing this). Let me ask you this question. If this country was so free...why cant I type the words **** you(fock you) on this forum?

lighten up everyone, It's no wonder women live longer than men in general.

[Kope]

fgxpanzerz,

First, you'll find **** few real soldiers have "tough guy" attitudes. (I'm defining a real soldier here as someone who has actually been shot at in a combat situation). Amazingly, the "tough guy" attitude goes away real quick with the onset of hte realization that the next bullet won't care how tough I think I am.

Second, there's a **** big difference between "supporting war" and what most soldiers do. Most soldiers pray that the balloon doesn't go up on a pretty regular basis. But they have the guts, self-discipline, and love of country to come when called.

Third, you're correlating soldiers with rapists, btw, disgusts me. And your whine about "i could get called up" shows me that you are nothing but a coward.

Finally, I did serve. Proudly, and voluntarily. I've been out a while now, but I was in for Grenada, Panama, and Kuwait. On Sept. 11th I got a phone call before noon. I'm 35, with a wife and 4 kids. But I will still proudly put on the uniform and go into harms way -- and I have no respect for a punk like you who won't.

I bet you have no problem taking those government backed student loans, but you'd be the first to run to canada if the country needed something back from you.

One of the foundations of any Kung Fu school worth being in is that to be there you must be a person of honor. I can say pretty firmly that I think you've more than demonstrated you wouldn't fit in anywhere .. .so no, I don't think I can get back to discussing martial arts with you. You're not worth it.

[fgxpanzerz]

A lot of women get raped which makes a lot of guys rapists. Three of my friends got raped. Are you a rapist kope? Is this why it bothers you so much? How many girls have you raped in the past. Maybe you raped them and just didnt know it was rape. Whatever yor past, it doesnt matter. I said I wouldn't want to go to war but do you know if I've served or not for a fact? Could it be that I'm talking out of experience? Serving food in the military doesnt count

[Kope]

Like I said . .. no honor. But thanks for demonstrating it loud and clear for all to see.

Would you like to continue making a fool of yourself?

[JOHNNY]

I want to know how old you are first off. You are really igorant and stupid. And we all do not have a tough guy attitude just messed up in the head. ((not really) Without us you would not have this nice country of ours so shut your little pea hole. Navy Seals get good training as they have a lot of money. They are not as disciplined as Marine Corps Recon who are grunts to begin with as well as the Rangers. You can be a cook and try out for the seals as long as you pass buds. As far as regular Marines are fighting skills are average. Recon get more hand to hand training as well as seals. We are trained for armed combat not hand to hand. In real combat you only have a couple of seconds and then you are dead. They make your mind stronger not exactly your fighting skills. You are funny though and I needed a laugh. I guess some military people must a messed with you and now your ranting. And we are not dumb as you think many of our officers gruaduate from Ivy league schools. I know I went to Officer Candidates course with them. I am also a Marine Reservist who went through enlisted boot for 3 fun months. I am also going to college to become a USMC officer. And yes many Marines become cops you try to come from that type of environment for 4+ years and work at an office. I wish they made military service mandatory so idoits like you who do not wan to to fight would have to anyways. You are obviously really young as your answers portray.
JOhnny
Semper Fidelis:cool:

[Liokault]

This is a stupid thread.


the navey seals are very very tought guys who are no doubt people that you do not want to get into a fight with on any level.


They may or may not be technicaly great at hand to haqnd but i get a feeling that after you take your cheap shot and smack one in the face ....and he dose not fall over your in real trouble. Special forces training the world over is about carrying on whehn your body is not co operating so even if your stabbing that seal hes still trying to rip your head off with his poor technique but high physical abilities till his body shuts down.

Any way the only special forces that take hand to hand seriously are the spetznatz of russia.





And the British SAS would kick the ass of any seal you care to name.

And the British SBS would kick the ass of any SAS guy you care to name.

[SevenStar]

I tend not to pay attention to fgx - he has a knack for posting garbage. but in response to this:

"Let me ask you this question. If this country was so free...why cant I type the words **** you(fock you) on this forum?"

Allow me to show you how free it is.... **** you.

[Longquan]

Military training develops resilience. When I served, I worked with Delta, SF, and Seals. Great people. BTW, I earned my BS while serving active duty army. Air Assault and English 101 in the same semester. So fgx **** you...

[BrentCarey]

I used to provide hand-to-hand and other types of training to most of the people in question. I have worked with just about every special operations unit named so far. There are good people and bad people throughout.

I can tell you a few things that may be of interest. First, many special operations soldiers think they are deadly hand-to-hand combatants because they are told, "All you have to do is this and it will kill a man instantly - and his dog back home." While most of what they are told about the effectiveness of the techniques is not true, there is a very good reason for the lie.

The best time to escape capture is as early as possible. Also, a long-proven self-defense principle is that it is much better to do something quickly and with resolve, than to do nothing. Filling soldiers with this sort of confidence increases the likelihood of actually executing a successful escape.

It takes too long to actually create proficient hand-to-hand fighters.

Also, I was OPFOR cadre at SERE school for a time. I can't give out the specifics of the training, but I can tell you that it was emotionally and physically traumatic. One thing I noticed is that first ones to break down and cry (literally) were the tough guys. As they say, the bigger they are, the harder they fall.

The reason for this is that most of these personalities rely on the illusion (and self-delusion) of being tougher than they really are. They are used to people fearing and respecting them. They are taught that people should fear and respect them. When you strip away the uniform, isolate them from peers, and put them in a (very) uncomfortable situation, they crack.

People that are not "tough guys" are more used to having to deal with disrespect, inconvenience, humiliation, etc. and show greater emotional fortitude under pressure when isolated.

Best regards,

Brent Carey

[fgxpanzerz]

Brent was intelligent enough to reply with a post that contains real information instead of the usual, "Seals are badasses!!!"
I dont know anything? From all of yor posts cursing me out and saying things like "Seals get trained to make their bodies work when they are exhausted." That's like saying, "Santa Claus comes when you're asleep. That's why you never see him." Anyway, you guys replying with the **** you's, give me a break.

[Ka]

From what I understand of this thread you are asking about the H@H fighting ability of Mil personal.

This seems a little misguided (like asking why aren't boxers good at grappling)as there primary task is not to take on people in H2H combat but rather to close with the emeny and kill them.They train for modern warfare.I would say a squads most important weapon or knowledge is there radio/coms link.

As for reputation,well these boys get paid to kill,and see the worse of what humans do to each other.A far cry from the hardest dojo I have ever seen.

The solution......join up my friend ,if you don't like it you can get out in a couple of years,you sound young,and you may even leran some things that can't be taught in college.

[guohuen]

I wrote a long response to this thread that my browser somehow didn't save. Probably for the better. Being as though I'm tired and no longer care about this topic, I'll encapsulate by saying that my experience was somewhat different than most of the responses I've read here both pro and con and I'm not going to talk about this anymore so that I don't lose respect for anyone.

[fgxpanzerz]

so...what was the point of posting what you currently posted???

[rogue]

I've had two instructors that were green hats. Both said the samething about h2h training beyond the normal stuff they were taught. You were expected to seek out the best training you could find on your own, master it and bring it back and pass it on. So one instructor earned high rank in an Okinawan style and the other was based I believe on a Korean style that he mixed with kickboxing and combatives. Someone else could be an Escrimador and someone else a Wing Chun player. Then they'd cross hands (OK more than cross hands) and trade what they knew. The idea was to not have a set martial art which would go against the idea of unconventional warriors, but warriors who could fight in a variety of ways. Some didn't go out and learn anything though but picked up their training from the others.

[JOHNNY]

"Any way the only special forces that take hand to hand seriously are the spetznatz of russia.





And the British SAS would kick the ass of any seal you care to name.

And the British SBS would kick the ass of any SAS guy you care to name."

I trainedwith some of the regulars bristish marines and they are no joke pt wise. you are right those are those forces that do take hand to hand very serious.
Now only if there whole armed forces would take things serious.:p
Johnny
semper fidelis

[Liokault]

Hey Johnny.


I was waiting to see whwn my coment would get a reaction.

I to have trained with a Royal Marine!!!!

We sparred for five minuets and he came away with broken ribs.

OK OK he was a lot smaller than me and he had been a (sort of) trapist monk for 2 years but he was still a Royal Marine officer.


I say that the Russian Spetznatz are the only ones who take their hand to hand seriously after reading quite a lot on this subject. The bit I like is where they train with their entrenching tool....even train in how to throw it right.

[JOHNNY]

I wish they gave us more hand to hand but in today's war environment only the real special forces might have these type of personal encounters. Regular soldiers like me will probably never have those type of encounters. I still wish they would teach us more. I am in the process of learning some more sambo and I want to learn some russian martialarts. Those sbs due some good training though. I wish we had some of that here but a lot of our special forces train with them. Many delta force and some marines too include a few as well as our squids who have been converted to seals:D
Johnny
Semper Fidelis

[dnc101]

Soldier? Did you say soldier? Like 'me'? Why, in the Ooooooold Corps... !

When we were issued our Barracks Covers in boot camp, I put mine on without the bill and joked with one of the other recruits that I was a squid. My sneaky Drill Instructor witnessed it, and I did pushups untill he got tired, then rifle drills with my footlocker. I shudder to think what would have happened to me if I'd said I was a soldier!

[JOHNNY]

DNC 101 what is your point? I am a bit confused?:confused: Should I call myself by something else like a Marine.:D
Johnny

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by fgxpanzerz
Only dumb people join the military and/or become police officers. The smart ones go to college. I'm not saying that everyone in the military is dumb or that everyone in college is smart. Unless the military is a career path, what does it help u with? You cant get a good job without a college degree of some type(this can be disputed.) I know a guy who I'd feel safe with anywhere. I'd bet my money that he could beat anyone with just military/seal/marine training. He's a crazy mofo and he'll kill ya!

First off genius, that's not a saying that's an opinion! I was an Air Force SpecOperator (PJ) and none of us were dumb! The Air force is now putting me through med school.It's called the GI Bill, and I don't know about the Jarines or Scarmy but most cats that get out of the AF Navy or Coast Guard utilize it!

My bro is an Af Orthopedic Spine Surgeon, my pops was an AF shrink, and 99% of the guys in the AF go to college and are smarter than your average American. BTW, I'd kick your tuff guy friends arse! No doubt!!! One thing grunts and SpecOps know is how to end a confrontation and keep imperturbable in dire situations... Get a grip and a clue. Maybe you're too pansy to even make it through AF basic. Most folks are just whack, and I would guess you ain't no different.

[JOHNNY]

I know we are jar heads but not are officers which I hope to become one day or if not continue in the reserves using the reserve gi bill to finish college. We are MARINES fly boy!!!
Just playing we are all on the same team .:D and we are not dumb. Some just choose to go the Marines for the challenge.
JOhnny
Semper FI

[fgxpanzerz]

My grandfather was in a hospital once. They had this doctor working on him. The doctor was one of those that just became a doctor. Anyhow, he was shoving a tube down my gramps throat wrong and he couldnt breathe and died. I didnt know gramps very well so it didnt bother me. The point is that I'd shudder if I was told some newbie would be my doctor. Answer me this question. Does the fact that you're in medical school make you intelligent?

[ewallace]

A guy I used to work with was ex-marine. He once told me "I never understood why we are called jarheads. Jars are for holding things that are useful". :)

[JOHNNY]

thanks ewallace.
Johnny

[ewallace]

Hey...for all you've done for me?......forget about it. It is nothing.

[bob10]

It's true that the Spets forces do incorporate a lot of hand to hand in their everyday training. The standard stuff taught is comabt sombo.

There may also be instruction in other styles based on Russian arts, whether they are boxing or grappling based.

In addition spec ops units within Spets are taught arts such as Systema (there are a few versions around), which will also incoporate bodyguard work, psychological, weapons, etc, etc according to the type of unit.

From what I have been told / seen / read even the everyday Spets training is very tough, probably more so than equivalent US or British units.

Google searchs on systema or russian martial arts will throw up plenty of info.

[Darren Laur]

For those who say they teach their system of fighting to SEALS, DELTA, FBI, RUSSIAN SPECIAL FORCES, and any other spec warfare or elite police Emergency Response Teams HTH Skills ( in an attempt to promote their style of fighting as street effective), good for you, but in most cases, these warriors aren’t the predators you will be facing on the street who use totally different S.O.P’s than those listed above (remember know thy enemy). Think about this one for a moment. As well, talk to any grunt on one of the above-mentioned teams, I know I have, and they will tell you that the last thing they want to do is to go toe to toe with an enemy/opponent. That is why they are given warrior tools such as guns, grenades, and knives. Do these teams run into HTH combative situations? Yes they do. But this is the “rare” exception and not the rule. What these teams do possess and which needs to be understood and harnessed by those of us teaching combatives is “Warrior Spirit”. I truly believe that this one very important attribute is what makes these units, and warriors serving in them, so formidable and dangerous !!!!!



Strength and Honor

Darren laur
Integrated Street Combatives

[ewallace]

Which style or styles, if any, do you think come anywhere close to harnessing the warrior spirit as they do in elite special forces units?

[Darren Laur]

In my opinion, most of the traditional martial art systems do not deal with this issue very well, if at all. Some of the more “Modern Realists” such as Tony Blauer, Richard Dimitri, and myself do deal with this issue in depth (again, I can only talk about those people that I am familiar with.)

I do believe that most of the Spec Op training that the military conducts is leading edge in the field of “Warrior Spirit development.” Why? Most of those who partake in martial arts or combatives training, are not willing to subject themselves to the mental and physical extremes needed to fully develop this important attribute. Those in the Military Spec Ops Community are, and do.


Three Quotes I Wish To Share:


THE ESSENCE OF WARRIORSHIP

"Warriorship is a personal and individual path. It is a path which deals with all aspects of life. The essence of warriorship is the process of fulfilling one’s potential. The ways towards warriorship are many, and they are all hard. Few ever go far, though all benefit. This is a commitment to a life of discipline and development in mind, body, and soul. The true warrior is an athlete, a scholar, a poet, a magician, a priest, and a skilled lover.
As a part of warriorship, the combat principles you learn can be applied to all areas of life. Discipline, flexibility, strategic thinking, and the ability to stay calm and see the larger perspective. These along with physical fitness, allow the warrior to succeed in any endeavor. This is what makes a true warrior. Skill in battle is of little use if you do not have a life worth fighting for."

— Sweyn Plowright, from True Helm (pp. 2 & 58)



THE "WARRIOR" CONTRASTED AGAINST THE "FALSE WARRIOR"

"Simply put, warriors choose to walk a separate path, different from others. They take the risk of standing alone and speaking up when others are silent. A vital component of ethical behavior is feeling obligated to do what is right. To feel obligated, one must not only care but be willing to pay the hard price that comes in wrestling with one’s own conscience. Warriors are self-actuated. They project consequences into the future and think, plan, and live long range. Warriors take personal control over their lives rather than be passive spectators and the victims of events occurring around them. . . .

Although true warriors are difficult to find, many people want to become warriors and begin walking the path, but they allow their energy to be taken from tem and their light to dim. You can see it in their eyes. They want the rewards, but they are no longer willing to pay the price to fill the lamp with the kind of oil that keeps it from growing dim. They have lowered their self-esteem and feel a constant need to prove themselves to others."

— Larry F. Jetmore, from The Path of the Warrior (p. 65)





THE WARRIOR PATH

Follow this path if you are to be a warrior and share your light with others. But tread carefully! We become what we pretend to be!. . .

It’s not easy to become a warrior. It’s even more difficult to remain a warrior after becoming one. Many answer the call of the drums, but few are able to sustain the strength of character necessary to march to them. There are many labyrinths, traps, and dragons along the path to the way.

Courage and inner fortitude are required to overcome the difficult and sometimes painful obstacles along the path a warrior must travel. Abuse of power and self-diminishing behavior are traps that snare and draw a would-be warrior off the path. We are often seduced by illusions of power bestowed upon us by the titles, promotions, or credentials we receive. These outward symbols quickly lose their luster unless placed on a foundation of self-worth. Because we often close our hearts to the people in our lives, many would-be warriors suffer the penalty of loneliness while surrounded by heaps of gold. Temptation and suffering for the sake of others are tests each person on the path to becoming a warrior must face. The voice and comfort of the herd is loud and strong. Although a warrior is sometimes joined by others, the walk is often the high and lonely path of the nomad. True warriors do not cower at the opinions of others, but feel themselves accountable to a higher tribunal than man.

All who walk the path have the freedom to choose where their steps will take them. There are many different paths but only one ‘way.’ Warriors accept total responsibility for their thoughts, behaviors, deeds, and actions. This is known as decision making."

— Larry F. Jetmore, from The Path of the Warrior (pp. 103, 106-107)



I hope I answered your question



Strength and Honor

Darren Laur
Integrated Street Combatives

[ewallace]

I hope I answered your question
Yes you did...and very well.


Most of those who partake in martial arts or combatives training, are not willing to subject themselves to the mental and physical extremes needed to fully develop this important attribute.
That is probably true. It is very unfortunate for folks like mysef too. Coming from a navy family, my child/teenhood dream was just to get the chance to go through BUDS. Unfortunately the military does not take folks like me. They tend to frown on metal plates where they shouldn't be and bones not existing where they should be (football injury, I won't go into detail). :o

[bob10]

Darren that may well be true for front line battle troops, but not neccesarily the case for those involved in other types of work - undercover, law enforcement, close protection and so on.

Yes, you a re right, toe to toe is not the situation to look for which is why Systema, for one, is such an evasion based style.

There seem to be some sports-based systems in vogue in this field at the moment which, to my mind, go against the grain of any "professional" work

Cheers

[Crow1981]

Some units of the SPETNAZ learn native russian martial arts like

Systema www.russianmartialart.com

and

R.O.S.S. www.rmax.tv

etc....

[Crow1981]

General Alexander Retuinskih founded R.O.S.S. and is the author of H2H Field Manual of the Russian Special Forces SPETSNAZ. It's an interesting read. There's also a history section as well as methods of movement, defence and attack. There's an English translation available on www.rmax.tv

[bean curd]

ok i have read this thread and i am not sure what it is all about, can someone give me a one sentance review on it

[Asia]

First, you'll find **** few real soldiers have "tough guy" attitudes. (I'm defining a real soldier here as someone who has actually been shot at in a combat situation). Amazingly, the "tough guy" attitude goes away real quick with the onset of hte realization that the next bullet won't care how tough I think I am.

Good to know I am REAL soldier. But I disagree with the above. A soldier doesn't have to face combat to be REAL. If he does his duty to the best of his ability and trains like he is suppose to then I would still call him a REAL soldier. Not every soldier will be in the trenches, hell I never thought I would have rounds coming my way or some guy telling me to drive EXACTLY where he does or we may hit a mine (then see one of THEIR vechiles on the side of the road with a wheel blown off:eek: ) But they are soldier none the less.


Anyways,

As far as H2H goes. Elite soldier who are good at H2H have become that way through their own accord. But military has changed and still going through changes with the combative program, which I am a instrcutor.

As for as beating SAS! Their may be a couple of guys want to talk to about getting dragged across the mat in Camp Bondsteel!:D

And as always I have adhere strictly to FM22-102!!!!;)

[TargetAlex]

I don't think that because U.S. Army Rangers train 'this' or Spetsnaz train 'that' we can interpret this as saying 'these systems are complete and are guaranteed to make you a h2h combat badass.'

I also don't think that being in the military automatically means you are a h2h combat badass. And I don't recall anyone who was in the military saying this either, and I have lived on military bases for 15 years. I have never heard one of these guys say they were tougher than an equally trained civilian 'just because' they are military. I think this was a perception largely created by Hollywood. There are some of these guys (Seals, etc) who I am sure are much better trained than MOST of the general public, but that is not simply because they are Seals, but because of the way they are trained COMBINED with their 'life experience' and personal attributes. These men have been selected because they have attributes that lend well to the nature of the work they will be performing.

The other thing to keep in mind is that while we speak here in generalities, we live in detail. Painting with broad strokes is not accurate here, as the same combat system taught to two people could be effective for one, and useless for the other, and we all know that.

[bob10]

"I don't think that because U.S. Army Rangers train 'this' or Spetsnaz train 'that' we can interpret this as saying 'these systems are complete and are guaranteed to make you a h2h combat badass"

No, but it may be a better starting place than some other things.
And yes, in most cases military H2H is probably no great shakes.
However if you are talking about elite units, rapid resposne squads, bodyguard units and the like, it may be a different kettle of fish.

And of course, you can take two guys in one system, if one never trains properly iy will not "work" for him, but given that people wiull put the effort in, a good system should work for anyone to a point.

[TargetAlex]

However if you are talking about elite units, rapid resposne squads, bodyguard units and the like, it may be a different kettle of fish.
Agreed, however the training these guys do is usually above and beyond what the organization they work for is offering-they usually take their h2h training 'into their own hands'.


And of course, you can take two guys in one system, if one never trains properly it will not "work" for him, but given that people will put the effort in, a good system should work for anyone to a point.
Agreed, to a point. However, regardless how hard some train they just do not get it. Almost everyone has one of these guys/gals in their classroom, their heart is there, but the body/mind for some reason cannot put it together. (Mind you, these people will not be kept around for Spec Ops and the like, so maybe this becomes a moot point.)